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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Solar Panels
Hi All,
I am considering getting a solar heated hot water system and have been quoted for either the flat panels or the tubes. The guy who quoted for the tubes said that they were more efficient, less susceptable to dirt (i.e. bird **** was more likely to splat between them rather than all over them) and any damage was more likely to mean the replacement of a tube or two rather than then whole panel (he obviously had a thing against birds as he cited an example of a bird dropping a stone or some such) The next guy was all for the flat panels reckoning that the difference in efficiency was marginal, that the tubes had some inherent issue with overheating the heat-transfer fluid and that they were more expensive with no real gain. I would be extremely interested in other people's experiences and comments to try and sort the wood from the trees. Cheers |
#2
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Solar Panels
Fredrick Skoog wrote:
Hi All, I am considering getting a solar heated hot water system and have been quoted for either the flat panels or the tubes. The guy who quoted for the tubes said that they were more efficient, less susceptable to dirt (i.e. bird **** was more likely to splat between them rather than all over them) and any damage was more likely to mean the replacement of a tube or two rather than then whole panel (he obviously had a thing against birds as he cited an example of a bird dropping a stone or some such) The next guy was all for the flat panels reckoning that the difference in efficiency was marginal, that the tubes had some inherent issue with overheating the heat-transfer fluid and that they were more expensive with no real gain. I would be extremely interested in other people's experiences and comments to try and sort the wood from the trees. I read somewhere on a site that supplies both tubes and panels that in Germany panels make up 75% (?) of all units installed.They are less "ugly" and although they take up a little more space the difference is marginal. I personally think a larger (modern) flat panel is much more visually appealing than a big array of tubes. Pete -- http://gymratz.co.uk - Fitness & Gym Equipment/nutrition specialists. http://www.trade-price-supplements.co.uk - Bulk buy for up to 33% off. http://www.BBE-Boxing-Equipment.co.uk - New Boxing Equipment site. http://www.commercial-gym-equipment.co.uk - Commercial Gym Equipment. |
#3
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Solar Panels
"Fredrick Skoog" wrote:
Hi All, I am considering getting a solar heated hot water system and have been quoted for either the flat panels or the tubes. The guy who quoted for the tubes said that they were more efficient, less susceptable to dirt (i.e. bird **** was more likely to splat between them rather than all over them) and any damage was more likely to mean the replacement of a tube or two rather than then whole panel (he obviously had a thing against birds as he cited an example of a bird dropping a stone or some such) The next guy was all for the flat panels reckoning that the difference in efficiency was marginal, that the tubes had some inherent issue with overheating the heat-transfer fluid and that they were more expensive with no real gain. I would be extremely interested in other people's experiences and comments to try and sort the wood from the trees. I don't know the answer, but I had colleagues who were facing a similar choice and went to the Centre for Alternative Technology for advice: http://www.cat.org.uk/ There is an excellent free information service at: http://www.cat.org.uk/information/info_content.tmpl |
#4
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Solar Panels
Fredrick Skoog wrote:
Hi All, I am considering getting a solar heated hot water system and have been quoted for either the flat panels or the tubes. The guy who quoted for the tubes said that they were more efficient, less susceptable to dirt (i.e. bird **** was more likely to splat between them rather than all over them) and any damage was more likely to mean the replacement of a tube or two rather than then whole panel (he obviously had a thing against birds as he cited an example of a bird dropping a stone or some such) The next guy was all for the flat panels reckoning that the difference in efficiency was marginal, that the tubes had some inherent issue with overheating the heat-transfer fluid and that they were more expensive with no real gain. I would be extremely interested in other people's experiences and comments to try and sort the wood from the trees. Cheers I would say that with efficiencies down around the zero mark in our benighted climate , it probably makes little difference. Anyway as long as the bird**** goes black eventually.. Did you read hat article in one of the weeklies where the blokes panels sludged up after a year. He got them serviced. The annual service cost twice as much as the estimated fuel bill saving ;-) |
#5
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Solar Panels
Fredrick Skoog wrote:
Hi All, I am considering getting a solar heated hot water system and have been quoted for either the flat panels or the tubes. The guy who quoted for the tubes said that they were more efficient, less susceptable to dirt (i.e. bird **** was more likely to splat between them rather than all over them) and any damage was more likely to mean the replacement of a tube or two rather than then whole panel (he obviously had a thing against birds as he cited an example of a bird dropping a stone or some such) The next guy was all for the flat panels reckoning that the difference in efficiency was marginal, that the tubes had some inherent issue with overheating the heat-transfer fluid and that they were more expensive with no real gain. I would be extremely interested in other people's experiences and comments to try and sort the wood from the trees. Cheers This page http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....=Solar_Thermal has a graph that explains the difference between them. On the face of it, tubes have significant advantages, but things are never as simple as they first seem. Fact is tubes cost way more than flat plates, hence for the same money you get far more flat plate than tube, and can thus achieve much better payback with flat plate. So pros and cons on both sides. The article also explains how to improve panel performance. Dont forget that what counts in the end is total power output per cost in, and in no way are tubes 'the winner' in this. No simple answer, sorry! NT |
#6
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Solar Panels
On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:35:34 +0100, Fredrick Skoog wrote:
Hi All, I am considering getting a solar heated hot water system May I ask why? Given that domestic hot water is a small proportion of a typical house's energy consumption then unless your house is already insulated and draught-proofed to Scandanavian standards and has the most efficient heating controls, condensing boiler and appliances and you're not on mains gas I'd question the economic/ecological case for solar DHW. -- John Stumbles Pessimists are never disappointed |
#7
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Solar Panels
wrote:
Fact is tubes cost way more than flat plates, hence for the same money you get far more flat plate than tube, and can thus achieve much better payback with flat plate. Hmm, not my experience. I have 2x20tube panels which cost less than I was quoted for flat panels (£600 for the tubes, £750 for the equivalent panels). A lot depends on where you buy the collectors. I got mine from someone who was honest and imported them from China, I've seent he same untis sold as "German" which seems to mean "Made in China, exported to Germany, sold on again to the UK" the price for those units was £3000 for two arrays of 20 tubes, but on inspection, the units were identical. For a hot water supply in a barn I used a panel I made myself for £50. It's not as efficient as the tubes and weighs a lot more. OTOH for that price it's possible to make a very big array of flat panels. |
#8
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Solar Panels
John Stumbles wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:35:34 +0100, Fredrick Skoog wrote: Hi All, I am considering getting a solar heated hot water system May I ask why? Given that domestic hot water is a small proportion of a typical house's energy consumption then unless your house is already insulated and draught-proofed to Scandanavian standards and has the most efficient heating controls, condensing boiler and appliances and you're not on mains gas I'd question the economic/ecological case for solar DHW. It seems pointless using solar just for DHW. However using it to feed a large thermal store seems a very good idea, and IME it is a very good idea. OTOH the farm doesn't have mains gas, and oil for water heating is currently the same price as diesel and propane isn't that much cheaper. The main headache with solar is educating family and guests to fit their use of hot water into the cycle of when hot water is available, that is shower, bath, wash and do the laundry in the late afternoon. Also finding a washing machine with hot water fill is a PITA. |
#9
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Solar Panels
Steve Firth wrote:
wrote: Fact is tubes cost way more than flat plates, hence for the same money you get far more flat plate than tube, and can thus achieve much better payback with flat plate. Hmm, not my experience. I have 2x20tube panels which cost less than I was quoted for flat panels (�600 for the tubes, �750 for the equivalent panels). A lot depends on where you buy the collectors. You can always find someone charging silly prices. Panels are very DIYable. For a hot water supply in a barn I used a panel I made myself for �50. It's not as efficient as the tubes and weighs a lot more. OTOH for that price it's possible to make a very big array of flat panels. quite so - and thats where they win. Efficiency may be inconsistent but when they perform, a large area can output a whole lot at very low cost. 2 sets of panels is always an option, flats feeding the bottom section of the tank, and a small tube array feeding the top. NT |
#10
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Solar Panels
Steve Firth wrote:
wrote: Fact is tubes cost way more than flat plates, hence for the same money you get far more flat plate than tube, and can thus achieve much better payback with flat plate. Hmm, not my experience. I have 2x20tube panels which cost less than I was quoted for flat panels (�600 for the tubes, �750 for the equivalent panels). A lot depends on where you buy the collectors. You can always find someone charging silly prices. Panels are very DIYable. For a hot water supply in a barn I used a panel I made myself for �50. It's not as efficient as the tubes and weighs a lot more. OTOH for that price it's possible to make a very big array of flat panels. quite so - and thats where they win. Efficiency may be inconsistent but when they perform, a large area can output a whole lot at very low cost. 2 sets of panels is always an option, flats feeding the bottom section of the tank, and a small tube array feeding the top. NT |
#11
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Solar Panels
"Fredrick Skoog" wrote in message ... Hi All, I am considering getting a solar heated hot water system and have been quoted for either the flat panels or the tubes. The guy who quoted for the tubes said that they were more efficient, less susceptable to dirt (i.e. bird **** was more likely to splat between them rather than all over them) and any damage was more likely to mean the replacement of a tube or two rather than then whole panel (he obviously had a thing against birds as he cited an example of a bird dropping a stone or some such) The next guy was all for the flat panels reckoning that the difference in efficiency was marginal, that the tubes had some inherent issue with overheating the heat-transfer fluid and that they were more expensive with no real gain. I would be extremely interested in other people's experiences and comments to try and sort the wood from the trees. Cheers We chose a flat panel and installed it ourselves more than two years ago. Any dirt washes off in the rain. The glass is very tough and unlikely to be broken. Ours is a direct system, rather than transferring heat from a fluid to water, the water in silicone piping is heated. It's pumped round the system by an integrated pv panel so no mains power is used and when the sun isn't shining - i.e. when water doesn't need to be moved - it doesn't run. We've been very satisfied with ours, it heats water even in winter. Our gas bills plummeted after we installed it. Even if the water is only 20C (that's unusually low by the way) we know that the boiler doesn't need to heat mains water more than necessary. Remember, too, that experience does count more than opinion :-) If you want to know more please mail me. Mary |
#12
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Solar Panels
On Fri, 30 May 2008 12:28:53 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:
We've been very satisfied with ours, it heats water even in winter. Our gas bills plummeted after we installed it. Let me stick my neck out here Mary and hazard a couple of guesses: (1) that you're the sort of people who put on a jumper rather than the central heating when it gets chilly, and (2) that your boiler and hot water cylinder are pretty ancient and prodigiously chuck heat into the house and out the flue for ages while heating the water in the cylinder. If so then your water heating costs would be a relatively high proportion of your total heating costs. If you'd spent the money you spent on your solartwin on a condensing boiler instead you might have found that your gas bills plummeted even further. -- John Stumbles I forgot to take my amnesia medecine again |
#13
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Solar Panels
John Stumbles wrote:
Let me stick my neck out here Mary and hazard a couple of guesses: (1) that you're the sort of people who put on a jumper rather than the central heating when it gets chilly, and (2) that your boiler and hot water cylinder are pretty ancient and prodigiously chuck heat into the house and out the flue for ages while heating the water in the cylinder. Quite presumptuous, aren't you! |
#14
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Solar Panels
On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:35:34 +0100, "Fredrick Skoog"
wrote: I am considering getting a solar heated hot water system and have been quoted for either the flat panels or the tubes. Good tubes always beat panels, on everything except cost. However that's enough to make or break installation actually taking place, so it's a hard choice. All you can really say is that you need to run the numbers for your site, your system and your budget. Anything else, even someone else's first-hand experience, is just hand-waving in comparison. It's a pretty exact science, or ought to be if you do it right. http://www.t4sustainability.co.uk includes John "Wookie" Beardmore who used to post hereabouts. |
#15
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Solar Panels
In message , Bruce
writes John Stumbles wrote: Let me stick my neck out here Mary and hazard a couple of guesses: (1) that you're the sort of people who put on a jumper rather than the central heating when it gets chilly, and (2) that your boiler and hot water cylinder are pretty ancient and prodigiously chuck heat into the house and out the flue for ages while heating the water in the cylinder. Quite presumptuous, aren't you! Well, she did claim to save more than a normal person actually spends on heating water .... but then you're new and wouldn't know these things -- geoff |
#16
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Solar Panels
On Fri, 30 May 2008 20:43:56 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote: Let me stick my neck out here Mary and hazard a couple of guesses: (1) that you're the sort of people who put on a jumper rather than the central heating when it gets chilly, Nothing wrong with that. -- Frank Erskine |
#17
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Solar Panels
On Fri, 30 May 2008 20:43:56 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote: On Fri, 30 May 2008 12:28:53 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote: We've been very satisfied with ours, it heats water even in winter. Our gas bills plummeted after we installed it. Let me stick my neck out here Mary and hazard a couple of guesses: (1) that you're the sort of people who put on a jumper rather than the central heating when it gets chilly, and Not necessarily, her circulation is probably buggered and she doesn't feel the cold, my old mum got to be like that. However my dad kept stumm (for a quiet life) sadly he died 20 years before she did of Cardio Respiratory failure. :-(( (2) that your boiler and hot water cylinder are pretty ancient and prodigiously chuck heat into the house and out the flue for ages while heating the water in the cylinder. If so then your water heating costs would be a relatively high proportion of your total heating costs. If you'd spent the money you spent on your solartwin on a condensing boiler instead you might have found that your gas bills plummeted even further. H2O Duck's Back to a "Classicist" like MF. Don't you try confusing her with facts. Derek |
#18
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Solar Panels
On Fri, 30 May 2008 22:13:04 +0100, Bruce wrote:
Quite presumptuous, aren't you! I have a photograph of Mary and Spouse. Chavs, they ain't :-) -- John Stumbles Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus and Pop Psychologists are from Uranus |
#19
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Solar Panels
On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:05:59 +0100, Derek Geldard wrote:
Not necessarily, her circulation is probably buggered and she doesn't feel the cold, my old mum got to be like that. I wouldn't stand within reach of her and say that ;-) -- John Stumbles Question Authority |
#20
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Solar Panels
On Fri, 30 May 2008 23:29:50 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:
http://www.t4sustainability.co.uk includes John "Wookie" Beardmore who used to post hereabouts. It would have been a bit of a shock if he'd been clean-shavem, wouldn't it? ;-) In fact it was mildly disppointing that he isn't more facially hirsute. -- John Stumbles (Throwing stones, surname-wise, from his glasshouse :-)) |
#21
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Solar Panels
On Fri, 30 May 2008 23:12:06 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote: On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:05:59 +0100, Derek Geldard wrote: Not necessarily, her circulation is probably buggered and she doesn't feel the cold, my old mum got to be like that. I wouldn't stand within reach of her and say that ;-) It wouldn't be the first time. In the end I had to say it to my old mum too :-(( *She* took no notice (as was her wont) but then *I* started getting the "Hard Word" from social services. All very sad. Derek. |
#22
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Solar Panels
"John Stumbles" wrote in message ... On Fri, 30 May 2008 12:28:53 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote: We've been very satisfied with ours, it heats water even in winter. Our gas bills plummeted after we installed it. Let me stick my neck out here Mary and hazard a couple of guesses: (1) that you're the sort of people who put on a jumper rather than the central heating when it gets chilly, Of course - it makes a lot of sense. Don't you? Do you go out on a cold day with no coat? Or perhaps you sit in your car in **** sleeves with the heater full on ... and (2) that your boiler and hot water cylinder are pretty ancient They were both installed in January 2006. I don't think that's pretty ancient :-) and prodigiously chuck heat into the house and out the flue for ages while heating the water in the cylinder. Not at all. If so then your water heating costs would be a relatively high proportion of your total heating costs. If you'd spent the money you spent on your solartwin on a condensing boiler instead you might have found that your gas bills plummeted even further. I think they couldn't be any lower but We don't want a condensing boiler for all sorts of reasons. So you're wrong. |
#23
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Solar Panels
"John Stumbles" wrote in message ... On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:05:59 +0100, Derek Geldard wrote: Not necessarily, her circulation is probably buggered and she doesn't feel the cold, my old mum got to be like that. I wouldn't stand within reach of her and say that ;-) I don't use physical punishment, ever. But my circulation isn't buggered either. I'm probably more active than the old mum was. Today is warm, I've been gardening wearing shorts and a shirt and sandals. Yesterday was cold, I wore jeans, shirt, sweatshirt and sandals and I was indoors most of the time. There's a reason for the sandals which has nothing to do with temperature. In the winter I wear knee length sheepskin boots. |
#24
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Solar Panels
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:35:34 +0100, "Fredrick Skoog" wrote: I am considering getting a solar heated hot water system and have been quoted for either the flat panels or the tubes. Good tubes always beat panels, on everything except cost. However that's enough to make or break installation actually taking place, so it's a hard choice. All you can really say is that you need to run the numbers for your site, your system and your budget. Anything else, even someone else's first-hand experience, is just hand-waving in comparison. It's a pretty exact science, or ought to be if you do it right. I'm not sure about that because different weather patterns, geographical locations and the needs/desires of households are different. Mary |
#25
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Solar Panels
On Sat, 31 May 2008 10:58:43 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote: It's a pretty exact science, or ought to be if you do it right. I'm not sure about that because different weather patterns, geographical locations and the needs/desires of households are different. That's why you have to do it right. The data to support an accurate model, down to a narrow geographical location, is obtainable. Nor are the needs of different households all that different - there are only so many ways to arrange a small number of people. The Jukes and the Kallikaks might be different, but all of those Jukes living on the same orientation in that same small town are going to have much the same needs. |
#26
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Solar Panels
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message t... "John Stumbles" wrote in message ... On Sat, 31 May 2008 00:05:59 +0100, Derek Geldard wrote: Not necessarily, her circulation is probably buggered and she doesn't feel the cold, my old mum got to be like that. I wouldn't stand within reach of her and say that ;-) I don't use physical punishment, ever. But my circulation isn't buggered either. I'm probably more active than the old mum was. Today is warm, I've been gardening wearing shorts and a shirt and sandals. Yesterday was cold, I wore jeans, shirt, sweatshirt and sandals and I was indoors most of the time. There's a reason for the sandals which has nothing to do with temperature. In the winter I wear knee length sheepskin boots. So you do feel the cold. I was in shorts and short sleeved shirt last week, this week I will have to get the AC out. |
#27
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Solar Panels
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message ... On Sat, 31 May 2008 10:58:43 +0100, "Mary Fisher" wrote: It's a pretty exact science, or ought to be if you do it right. I'm not sure about that because different weather patterns, geographical locations and the needs/desires of households are different. That's why you have to do it right. The data to support an accurate model, down to a narrow geographical location, is obtainable. Nor are the needs of different households all that different - there are only so many ways to arrange a small number of people. The Jukes and the Kallikaks might be different, but all of those Jukes living on the same orientation in that same small town are going to have much the same needs. I'm not convinced about that. Our use of all water and fuel is considered, others aren't so tight :-) Mary |
#28
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Solar Panels
On Sat, 31 May 2008 10:54:01 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:
Of course - it makes a lot of sense. Don't you? Do you go out on a cold day with no coat? No, but in my job (plumbing and heating) I'm frequently in people's houses which would make Nordic saunas seem chilly :-) Or perhaps you sit in your car in **** sleeves Only when I've been clearing out sewers ;-) (Reminds me of one of our teachers at tech who used to describe a loose fit between components as being "like a turd in a shirt sleeve") They were both installed in January 2006. I don't think that's pretty ancient :-) OK, should be 80% SEDBUK on the boiler & reasonable re-heat time on the HW cylinder. So you're wrong. sigh! again :-) I think they couldn't be any lower but We don't want a condensing boiler for all sorts of reasons. Well it wouldn't make economic or ecological sense if your boiler's reasonably modern and efficient anyway, but go on ... I'm curious what your objections would be otherwise. -- John Stumbles Things don't like being anthropomorphised. |
#29
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On Sat, 31 May 2008 11:48:48 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:
That's why you have to do it right. The data to support an accurate model, down to a narrow geographical location, is obtainable. Where? I've scoured various meteorological websites for baseline data and all I can find is variations on the baseline - which presumably is so well known within the met industry nobody bothers to publish it. I think it would be neat to be able to make a calculator - like a heat-loss calculator for boiler or radiator sizing - which people could use to run their own what-if calculations, e.g. what if I got cavity wall insulation/double glazed my windows/installed solar water heating/took X showers instead of baths/turned down my thermostat Y degrees ... etc. - and would show how much energy and money difference it would make over a year. -- John Stumbles Life is nature's way of keeping meat fresh |
#30
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On Sat, 31 May 2008 12:46:29 GMT someone who may be John Stumbles
wrote this:- I think it would be neat to be able to make a calculator - like a heat-loss calculator for boiler or radiator sizing - which people could use to run their own what-if calculations, e.g. what if I got cavity wall insulation/double glazed my windows/installed solar water heating/took X showers instead of baths/turned down my thermostat Y degrees ... etc. - and would show how much energy and money difference it would make over a year. SAP allows people to do this, in theory. However, its results should always be taken with a pinch of salt as there is only so much a method can do to allow for humans. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#31
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On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:35:34 +0100 someone who may be "Fredrick
Skoog" wrote this:- The guy who quoted for the tubes said that they were more efficient, True, though one has to compare like with like. If an old radiator is being used as a flat panel then it is going to be rather less efficient than a well designed, low water volume, flat panel. Vacuum tubes will still have an advantage over flat panels, especially in cloudy weather, but it is not as marked as some imply. less susceptable to dirt (i.e. bird **** was more likely to splat between them rather than all over them) Random bird **** is a little more likely to hit the tubes than the gap, the gap typically being a little narrower than the tubes. However, the gap should be filled by reflectors so both types of panel should be a large unbroken area. A flat panel of equivalent output will be larger, so there is a larger target. and any damage was more likely to mean the replacement of a tube or two rather than then whole panel (he obviously had a thing against birds as he cited an example of a bird dropping a stone or some such) Or someone throwing stones. However, it is true that an individual tube can be replaced to deal with damage, as opposed to the whole panel or the whole panel cover. In a DIY context the advantage is with vacuum tubes. The header, frame and tubes are all individual items which can be lifted onto a roof individually. Lifting a flat panel, especially one made from an old radiator, means lifting the whole thing, with size and weight to deal with. Not insurmountable problems, but ones to bear in mind. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
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