Hi all,

I am looking into solar power. I have found that the UK grant system which has been going for 2 years or so, has been severely cut back this year.

Now they give a max of
2,500GBP for Bolt on systems, (panels bolted onto roof)
3,500GBP for integrated systems (means roof tiles that are covered with solar cells).

These figures are from memory and so may be slightly innaccurate.

You also have to have an accredited installer, which doubles the cost of installation, than say for example you were to do the work yourself (not very difficult) and then have a professional check it and do the final "grid connect" bit.

A typical 2KW system would cost around 11,000GBP for parts. The VAT on this alone would be 1640GBP, When you take into account the amount charged (by accredited companies) for labour, it's easy to see that the so called Government grant just about covers the VAT. So they (the Government) aren't actually doing anything to help.

If I was in charge, I would abolish all VAT on renewable energy products, e.g. solar panels, wind turbines & inverters etc. And then I would allow people to install the equipment themselves or in any way they wanted, such as using a local builder. Then in order to get a grant of 50% of the cost of materials I would require that the installation was checked over by an "accredited engineer" and that if a grid connect was to be done that this engineer would do that bit. On top of this I would introduce a scheme where the electricity companies had to pay you about 35p/Kwh produced, and the electric companies could reclaim from the government about 20p of this amount.

I got the 35p idea from Germany where I don't think there is any installation grant available but they buy back the electricity at about 35p/KWh

France is giving 40% the cost of materials and buying the electricity at 2 - 3 pence per KWh above the rate of the cost of supply. I think you need an accredited installer in France too.

In Britain, the Electricity companies used to pay 1/3rd of the cost of supply for your generated electricity! so they used to pay about 3p/KWh . Today there is atleast one electric company who has started buying it for the same cost as they charge for supply. I don't know if the other companies are still only paying 1/3rd of the cost.

Anyway, that's the background information for you. Now I was wondering what you think the future will hold? Because I cannot afford to go solar but I would like to.

A BP (British Petroleum) BP7175s Solar panel 175W Max power output (14% efficiency) (1590mm x 790mm) one of the most efficient panels on the market, currently cost about 800 GBP inc VAT

Will they get cheaper do you think? I would like to see this costing about 200GBP.

And an inverter, 2,500W capacity currently cost about 1,800GBP. Can't they make them any cheaper than this?

Or more efficient? I understand the high cost is due to the cost of silicon, so what is the future for the cost of silicon?

wig wrote:

so what is the future for the cost of silicon?


There are printed solar cells being developed which don't use silicon wafers
at all. But this is currently mostly at university/first start up stage so
don't hold your breath.

wig wrote:
Hi all,

I am looking into solar power. I have found that the UK grant system
which has been going for 2 years or so, has been severely cut back this
year.

Now they give a max of
2,500GBP for Bolt on systems, (panels bolted onto roof)
3,500GBP for integrated systems (means roof tiles that are covered with
solar cells).

These figures are from memory and so may be slightly innaccurate.

You also have to have an accredited installer, which doubles the cost
of installation, than say for example you were to do the work yourself
(not very difficult) and then have a professional check it and do the
final "grid connect" bit.

A typical 2KW system would cost around 11,000GBP for parts. The VAT on
this alone would be 1640GBP, When you take into account the amount
charged (by accredited companies) for labour, it's easy to see that the
so called Government grant just about covers the VAT. So they (the
Government) aren't actually doing anything to help.

If I was in charge, I would abolish all VAT on renewable energy
products, e.g. solar panels, wind turbines & inverters etc. And then
I would allow people to install the equipment themselves or in any way
they wanted, such as using a local builder. Then in order to get a
grant of 50% of the cost of materials I would require that the
installation was checked over by an "accredited engineer" and that if a
grid connect was to be done that this engineer would do that bit. On
top of this I would introduce a scheme where the electricity companies
had to pay you about 35p/Kwh produced, and the electric companies could
reclaim from the government about 20p of this amount.

I got the 35p idea from Germany where I don't think there is any
installation grant available but they buy back the electricity at about
35p/KWh

France is giving 40% the cost of materials and buying the electricity
at 2 - 3 pence per KWh above the rate of the cost of supply. I think
you need an accredited installer in France too.

In Britain, the Electricity companies used to pay 1/3rd of the cost of
supply for your generated electricity! so they used to pay about 3p/KWh
Today there is atleast one electric company who has started buying it
for the same cost as they charge for supply. I don't know if the other
companies are still only paying 1/3rd of the cost.

Anyway, that's the background information for you. Now I was wondering
what you think the future will hold? Because I cannot afford to go solar
but I would like to.

A BP (British Petroleum) BP7175s Solar panel 175W Max power output
(14% efficiency) (1590mm x 790mm) one of the most efficient panels on
the market, currently cost about 800 GBP inc VAT

Will they get cheaper do you think? I would like to see this costing
about 200GBP.

And an inverter, 2,500W capacity currently cost about 1,800GBP. Can't
they make them any cheaper than this?



I think that it is unlikely we will see a significant reduction in the
price of PV's in the near future for two reasons:

1) PV cells aren't actually all that good at converting light into
electricity. While you might feel like you are doing some good by using
a renewable form of energy in actual fact the PV cells probably only
just pay for themselves, energy wise, over their lifetime. Without a
good pay back in terms of energy there just isn't a good reason to
invest in them. There are some interesting developments though in the
nano-technology arena that look like they might make PV cells more useful.

2) PV cells require very high purity silicon which coincidentally
happens to be what computer chips need. At the moment there is a world
shortage in silicon production. Loads of people want computer chips
which means that PV cell manufacturers are having a hard time buying
silicon at a reasonable price. It takes upwards of 5 years to get a new
silicon refinery up and running and no one is building one at the moment.

Steve Firth wrote:
wig wrote:

so what is the future for the cost of silicon?

Upwards.


As the raw material is in such short supply.

wig wrote:
OT ? Solar panels Will they get cheaper?

Or more efficient? I understand the high cost is due to the cost of
silicon, so what is the future for the cost of silicon?

PV panels are not worth implementing in 99% of cases. Theyre only
useful for remote locations eg spacecraft. The energy payback is ok,
but the cost is outrageous. Of all the alt energies talked about, PV
will give you the least bang per buck, ie the least energy output per
dollar.

If you want solar panels, go with flat panel space heating, and forget
PV unless youre in the middle of nowhere. FPSH can get you orders of
magnitude more energy payback than PV.


NT

wrote in message
oups.com...
wig wrote:
OT ? Solar panels Will they get cheaper?

Or more efficient? I understand the high cost is due to the cost of
silicon, so what is the future for the cost of silicon?


Asked an industry expert about this today :

"The shortage is in polysilicon, not silicon wafers per se, although without
polysilicon, you can't grow the silicon ingots. Solar is the problem. In
the past, solar wafers used crap poly - it was cheap and did the job. IC
wafers in contrast need the besy poly man can make. Then the solar guys
suddenly discovered efficiency improved dramatically if you used better
quality poly, so now even solar wafers need decent stuff.

Capitive IC wafer manufactures don't have a problem (i.e. the big 4) but the
rest of the industry does."

On Tue, 31 May 2005 13:55:11 +0100, wig
wrote:


If I was in charge, I would abolish all VAT on renewable energy
products, e.g. solar panels, wind turbines & inverters etc. And then
I would allow people to install the equipment themselves or in any way
they wanted, such as using a local builder. Then in order to get a
grant of 50% of the cost of materials I would require that the
installation was checked over by an "accredited engineer" and that if a
grid connect was to be done that this engineer would do that bit. On
top of this I would introduce a scheme where the electricity companies
had to pay you about 35p/Kwh produced, and the electric companies could
reclaim from the government about 20p of this amount.

You are far too sensible to be in charge

Mike wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
wig wrote:
OT ? Solar panels Will they get cheaper?

Or more efficient? I understand the high cost is due to the cost of
silicon, so what is the future for the cost of silicon?


Asked an industry expert about this today :

"The shortage is in polysilicon, not silicon wafers per se, although without
polysilicon, you can't grow the silicon ingots. Solar is the problem. In
the past, solar wafers used crap poly - it was cheap and did the job. IC
wafers in contrast need the besy poly man can make. Then the solar guys
suddenly discovered efficiency improved dramatically if you used better
quality poly, so now even solar wafers need decent stuff.

Capitive IC wafer manufactures don't have a problem (i.e. the big 4) but the
rest of the industry does."



Plus, IC makers couldn't care less if the price of a square centimeter
of chip is a few pence. (well, their profit margins might be very slightly
squeezed) but for solar panel makers, where that would multiply their costs
many fold, it's critical.

Ha ha lol, thanks, even if you were being sarcastic.

Mike, thanks for your info too.

Wig.

wig wrote:
Hi all,

I am looking into solar power. I have found that the UK grant system
which has been going for 2 years or so, has been severely cut back this
year.

Now they give a max of
2,500GBP for Bolt on systems, (panels bolted onto roof)
3,500GBP for integrated systems (means roof tiles that are covered with
solar cells).

These figures are from memory and so may be slightly innaccurate.

You also have to have an accredited installer, which doubles the cost
of installation, than say for example you were to do the work yourself
(not very difficult) and then have a professional check it and do the
final "grid connect" bit.

A typical 2KW system would cost around 11,000GBP for parts. The VAT on
this alone would be 1640GBP, When you take into account the amount
charged (by accredited companies) for labour, it's easy to see that the
so called Government grant just about covers the VAT. So they (the
Government) aren't actually doing anything to help.

If I was in charge, I would abolish all VAT on renewable energy
products, e.g. solar panels, wind turbines & inverters etc. And then
I would allow people to install the equipment themselves or in any way
they wanted, such as using a local builder. Then in order to get a
grant of 50% of the cost of materials I would require that the
installation was checked over by an "accredited engineer" and that if a
grid connect was to be done that this engineer would do that bit. On
top of this I would introduce a scheme where the electricity companies
had to pay you about 35p/Kwh produced, and the electric companies could
reclaim from the government about 20p of this amount.

I got the 35p idea from Germany where I don't think there is any
installation grant available but they buy back the electricity at about
35p/KWh

France is giving 40% the cost of materials and buying the electricity
at 2 - 3 pence per KWh above the rate of the cost of supply. I think
you need an accredited installer in France too.

In Britain, the Electricity companies used to pay 1/3rd of the cost of
supply for your generated electricity! so they used to pay about 3p/KWh
. Today there is atleast one electric company who has started buying it
for the same cost as they charge for supply. I don't know if the other
companies are still only paying 1/3rd of the cost.

Anyway, that's the background information for you. Now I was wondering
what you think the future will hold? Because I cannot afford to go solar
but I would like to.

A BP (British Petroleum) BP7175s Solar panel 175W Max power output
(14% efficiency) (1590mm x 790mm) one of the most efficient panels on
the market, currently cost about 800 GBP inc VAT

Will they get cheaper do you think? I would like to see this costing
about 200GBP.

And an inverter, 2,500W capacity currently cost about 1,800GBP. Can't
they make them any cheaper than this?


--
wig


I don't understand how the concept of paying a premium for "renewable"
generated electricity works (practically and sustainably). Why pay
more for something that is supplied whenever the sun decides to shine
rather than when it is needed.
Practically speaking it will be NECESSARY to pay the premium to sources
which are available on demand i.e. gas. Otherwise there is no incentive
to build capacity to meet peak demand. We will end up with somewhat
more capacity than peak demand when the sun is shining and the wind
blowing but way-way less than peak demand when these elements don't
co-operate.

I'm not against renewable energy, I just don't see who is going to pay
to install generating capacity which only gets used when the wind and
sunshine decide not to co-operate. i.e. would need to be paid a huge
premium on what they actually generate or get a fixed payment just for
being available. Has this been factored into the supposed cost of
wind, wave and solar electricity as we increase reliance on these
sources?

Ian Stirling wrote:
Steve Firth wrote:

wig wrote:


so what is the future for the cost of silicon?

Upwards.



As the raw material is in such short supply.


s******...

Steve Firth wrote:
Hamie wrote:


Ian Stirling wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:


wig wrote:



so what is the future for the cost of silicon?

Upwards.



As the raw material is in such short supply.


s******...


Well, one of the raw materials is in short supply, energy.


No... Just hard to get in the form you need it... But I know what you
meant

H