Please bear with me: My ADSL router is connected via an extension
from the BT master socket in the hall. The distance to the exchange
is high and I've never got a particularly good connection, but it's
been acceptable at 1Mbps. I'm with UKOnline/Easynet LLU.

Over the last few days the speed and the stability have dropped
markedly. It happened between 6:00pm and 8:00pm on Wednesday. On
phoning my ISP, they said that it could be my internal wiring (well,
they would, wouldn't they?).

Now, how to test that? The bits of kit I have available a a
screwdriver for removing the faceplate's screws, a USB DSL modem, DR
Speedtouch, and a Netgear router. So far, the only results I've been
able to establish with any certainty a
1) when plugged into the socket behind the faceplate, the results from
the DR Speedtouch log are Receive Attenuation=54dB & Receive
Margin=13dB;
2) when plugged into the socket on the faceplate and to the extension
in the study, Receive Attenuation=54dB & Receive Margin=11dB;
3) currently, according to the router, Line Attenuation
Downstream=58dB & Noise Margin Downstream=wobbling around 12 to 14dB;
4) Connection Speed according to the router=1152kbps, speed test
results currently 965kbps.

The current connection is OK, but I had to re-boot the router this
morning to get it.

The difference between the logs' margins of 11 and 13 doesn't seem
that great, and AIUI anything greater than 10 shouldn't be
detrimental. Does this indicate that the problem is likely to be on
the BT/LLU side of things? If not, how can I test the quality of my
internal wiring?
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Hugo Nebula wrote:
Please bear with me: My ADSL router is connected via an extension
from the BT master socket in the hall. The distance to the exchange
is high and I've never got a particularly good connection, but it's
been acceptable at 1Mbps. I'm with UKOnline/Easynet LLU.

Over the last few days the speed and the stability have dropped
markedly. It happened between 6:00pm and 8:00pm on Wednesday. On
phoning my ISP, they said that it could be my internal wiring (well,
they would, wouldn't they?).

Well before you go fussing and fiddling, bear with ME.

In my new install drearily documented in anther thread, I have seen
noise levels and connection speeds dropping at precisely the same times
of day ..my conclusion is that the cold weather is affecting either the
lines, or the amount of electrical noise..from a reliable synch at 4800
a few days ago, post last night the best I can get is 3600..

Its probably loads of CH thermostats arcing and clicking in your
neighbourhood.


Now, how to test that? The bits of kit I have available a a
screwdriver for removing the faceplate's screws, a USB DSL modem, DR
Speedtouch, and a Netgear router. So far, the only results I've been
able to establish with any certainty a
1) when plugged into the socket behind the faceplate, the results from
the DR Speedtouch log are Receive Attenuation=54dB & Receive
Margin=13dB;

Sounds about right.

2) when plugged into the socket on the faceplate and to the extension
in the study, Receive Attenuation=54dB & Receive Margin=11dB;

Slightly better, but not much.

3) currently, according to the router, Line Attenuation
Downstream=58dB & Noise Margin Downstream=wobbling around 12 to 14dB;
4) Connection Speed according to the router=1152kbps, speed test
results currently 965kbps.


that should be OK for reliability..it looks like your line is subject to
burst noise tho, as normally you will synch at 6-8dB SDNR.

Looks like BT has (rightly by the sound of it) adjusted you for a high
noise margin. Or if it's LLU then easynet have.


The current connection is OK, but I had to re-boot the router this
morning to get it.


Its a bit warmer today ;-)

The difference between the logs' margins of 11 and 13 doesn't seem
that great, and AIUI anything greater than 10 shouldn't be
detrimental. Does this indicate that the problem is likely to be on
the BT/LLU side of things? If not, how can I test the quality of my
internal wiring?

I think that in reality there is nothing you can do.

The attenuation and noise sounds like you are several miles from the
exchange, and basically there isn't much you can do about it:

Everyone blames microfilters blah blah blah, but the reality is that
long lines are noisy and lossy and that's that.

I am running reliably at the moment at 45DB attenuation and 7.5dB
margin..that means that my noise spike trigger level is equivalent to
52.5dB 'noise floor' for 3.6Mbps.

You are connecting at a third that speed, so given similar noise floors
you should be able to hit 5dB more..57.5dB..In fact you are operating at
70dB..frankly I am amazed you can get THAT much.

Obviously its worthwhile scraping what you can with top quality filters,
but don't expect miracles.


You noise margin is high, which the ISP can (get?) lowered for you,but
you may end up trading speed for unrelaibility. The longer the line the
higher the margin needs to be.

How far from the exchange are you? Attenuation suggests maybe 5 miles or
so..?

"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message
...
Please bear with me: My ADSL router is connected via an extension
from the BT master socket in the hall. The distance to the exchange
is high and I've never got a particularly good connection, but it's
been acceptable at 1Mbps. I'm with UKOnline/Easynet LLU.


OK up to now.

Over the last few days the speed and the stability have dropped
markedly. It happened between 6:00pm and 8:00pm on Wednesday. On
phoning my ISP, they said that it could be my internal wiring (well,
they would, wouldn't they?).


That's because it's peak time when loads of people switch on and try to use
the Internet. The company you are paying can't keep up with demand so
everyone has their transfer speeds lowered.
What do you do with your internal wiring each night between those times!
That's just on their "get shut of the caller" scripts they have.

Now, how to test that? The bits of kit I have available a a
screwdriver for removing the faceplate's screws, a USB DSL modem, DR
Speedtouch, and a Netgear router. So far, the only results I've been
able to establish with any certainty a
1) when plugged into the socket behind the faceplate, the results from
the DR Speedtouch log are Receive Attenuation=54dB & Receive
Margin=13dB;
2) when plugged into the socket on the faceplate and to the extension
in the study, Receive Attenuation=54dB & Receive Margin=11dB;
3) currently, according to the router, Line Attenuation
Downstream=58dB & Noise Margin Downstream=wobbling around 12 to 14dB;
4) Connection Speed according to the router=1152kbps, speed test
results currently 965kbps.

The current connection is OK, but I had to re-boot the router this
morning to get it.

The difference between the logs' margins of 11 and 13 doesn't seem
that great, and AIUI anything greater than 10 shouldn't be
detrimental. Does this indicate that the problem is likely to be on
the BT/LLU side of things? If not, how can I test the quality of my
internal wiring?
--
Hugo Nebula

It's nothing to do with your wiring, outside temperature, rain, full moon or
buses going past - it is the ISP unable to cope with demand in peak times.
Simple as that. Look for a different ISP.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:11:59 +0000, a particular chimpanzee, The
Natural Philosopher randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

that should be OK for reliability..it looks like your line is subject to
burst noise tho, as normally you will synch at 6-8dB SDNR.

Looks like BT has (rightly by the sound of it) adjusted you for a high
noise margin. Or if it's LLU then easynet have.

When I first signed up, it was for 2Mb. That worked well enough for a
couple of months, but I started having problems, and UKOnline lowered
my line's speed to 1Mb in February 2006. It's been fine until three
days ago. IIRC, the figures were around 56db & 15dB.

How far from the exchange are you? Attenuation suggests maybe 5 miles or
so..?

About two as the crow flies. Probably 3 miles if the cables follow the
main roads. All I know is I'm at the edge of my exchange's area.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:22:02 UTC, "Simon"
wrote:


"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message
...
Please bear with me: My ADSL router is connected via an extension
from the BT master socket in the hall. The distance to the exchange
is high and I've never got a particularly good connection, but it's
been acceptable at 1Mbps. I'm with UKOnline/Easynet LLU.


OK up to now.

Over the last few days the speed and the stability have dropped
markedly. It happened between 6:00pm and 8:00pm on Wednesday. On
phoning my ISP, they said that it could be my internal wiring (well,
they would, wouldn't they?).

That's because it's peak time when loads of people switch on and try to use
the Internet. The company you are paying can't keep up with demand so
everyone has their transfer speeds lowered.

How would that affect stability?
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

Hugo Nebula wrote:

Over the last few days the speed and the stability have dropped
markedly. It happened between 6:00pm and 8:00pm on Wednesday. On
phoning my ISP, they said that it could be my internal wiring (well,
they would, wouldn't they?).

We had a recent case where speed started dropping. This was shortly
followed by loss of voice quality and finally loss of all voice - the
ADSL hung on though. BT were called out and replaced the cable from the
pole (and commented that they had not seen a cable that old for ages!).
Apparently one leg had eventually gone open circuit (hence loss of voice).

So don't rule out the possibility of a line fault. Its getting damper
this time of year, so any external line junctions are vulnerable.

Now, how to test that? The bits of kit I have available a a
screwdriver for removing the faceplate's screws, a USB DSL modem, DR
Speedtouch, and a Netgear router. So far, the only results I've been
able to establish with any certainty a
1) when plugged into the socket behind the faceplate, the results from
the DR Speedtouch log are Receive Attenuation=54dB & Receive
Margin=13dB;

Quite high attenuation, but a decent margin. (I get 32/7 at 448/8128 bps).

2) when plugged into the socket on the faceplate and to the extension
in the study, Receive Attenuation=54dB & Receive Margin=11dB;

That suggests the noise immunity of your internal wiring (or possibly
your microfilter) is not that good. How long is the cable run? What type
of wire?

A decent face plate "whole house" filter as the master socket, with the
router connected there ought to get you the best results. Rather than
routing the ADSL over too much internal cable, its better to take the
ethernet (via home plug or wireless if needs be) through the house.

3) currently, according to the router, Line Attenuation
Downstream=58dB & Noise Margin Downstream=wobbling around 12 to 14dB;
4) Connection Speed according to the router=1152kbps, speed test
results currently 965kbps.

You would expect the sync speed to be a little over the true data speed
since the ISP will have to throttle the data into the ATM network at
*typically) a little under your sync speed.

The current connection is OK, but I had to re-boot the router this
morning to get it.

Having to reboot on the odd occasion (i.e. once every few weeks) is not
that uncommon even with the best of installations.

The difference between the logs' margins of 11 and 13 doesn't seem
that great, and AIUI anything greater than 10 shouldn't be
detrimental. Does this indicate that the problem is likely to be on
the BT/LLU side of things? If not, how can I test the quality of my
internal wiring?

It seems like you have already tested it reasonably well. There is
obviously scope for improvement - but not drastically.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:30:12 +0000, Hugo Nebula wrote:

About two as the crow flies. Probably 3 miles if the cables follow the
main roads. All I know is I'm at the edge of my exchange's area.

Ah, sounds like a crap lossy line then. Our line length is similar but
with 43dB loss, SNR 15dB day 7dB night and stable sync speeds are in the
low 5,000's. Is voice clear and noise free?

3 miles is not the "edge of an exchnage area" at least not in a rural
area. Long lines are 10 miles+ and struggle for voice to work let alone
ADSL...

The LLU may well add to the problem as well, yet another reason for the
involved companies (BT Openreach (the wire), BT Wholesale (the backhaul),
UKOnline/Easynet) to bounce the problem between themselves.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Agree with all that. Performance does vary with time. External line quality
regularly drops following heavy rain even though BT insist is is "fine". I
have a wireless router in the middle of a large-ish rubble stone house for
convenience, with wired ethernet to the main computers. Certainly got an
improvement in performance by running a better quality ADSL lead from the
RedFishShop direct to the master socket instead of to an extension.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:25:33 +0000 (GMT), a particular chimpanzee,
"Dave Liquorice" randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:30:12 +0000, Hugo Nebula wrote:

About two as the crow flies. Probably 3 miles if the cables follow the
main roads. All I know is I'm at the edge of my exchange's area.

Ah, sounds like a crap lossy line then. Our line length is similar but
with 43dB loss, SNR 15dB day 7dB night and stable sync speeds are in the
low 5,000's. Is voice clear and noise free?

Yes.

3 miles is not the "edge of an exchnage area" at least not in a rural
area. Long lines are 10 miles+ and struggle for voice to work let alone
ADSL...

I'm in a city suburb, and a few roads away the houses have different
codes and are served by a different exchange (according to Samknows).

The LLU may well add to the problem as well, yet another reason for the
involved companies (BT Openreach (the wire), BT Wholesale (the backhaul),
UKOnline/Easynet) to bounce the problem between themselves.

Is that a euphemism for passing the buck?
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Hugo Nebula wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:11:59 +0000, a particular chimpanzee, The
Natural Philosopher randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

that should be OK for reliability..it looks like your line is subject to
burst noise tho, as normally you will synch at 6-8dB SDNR.

Looks like BT has (rightly by the sound of it) adjusted you for a high
noise margin. Or if it's LLU then easynet have.

When I first signed up, it was for 2Mb. That worked well enough for a
couple of months, but I started having problems, and UKOnline lowered
my line's speed to 1Mb in February 2006. It's been fine until three
days ago. IIRC, the figures were around 56db & 15dB.

So attenuation has been stable..just a bit more noise..

Are you on a fixed rate service or ADSL MAX?

You MAY find it better to go to ADSL MAX if you are not on it 'up to
8Mbps' is the key phrase. You won't get it, but at least the line will
rate adapt down to about as good as is possible at any give time.

Educate yourself with a rather good site

www.kitz.co.uk

How far from the exchange are you? Attenuation suggests maybe 5 miles or
so..?

About two as the crow flies. Probably 3 miles if the cables follow the
main roads. All I know is I'm at the edge of my exchange's area.

MM. tis a bugger. Being on the end of long wires. Somewhere there is a
postcode tester that tells you what you SHOULD get.

PS apologies about last post.Its not you talking out of anus..it was
'simon'..had too much whiskey after lunch..


Your last and final point of call is probably to tell the ISP that you
have seen a rapid, recent and sustained drop in performance, and ask
them to get BT to test the line. If its wandered over the edge of BT;'s
spec I think BT are actually quite good in running new cables, or
switching you to a new pair etc.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:58:41 +0000, Hugo Nebula wrote:

Is voice clear and noise free?

Yes.

That's a bugger, as getting BT Openreach to sort out a noisy line is damn
site easier (even with LLU) than getting them to trace a problem with
ADSL.

I'm in a city suburb, and a few roads away the houses have different
codes and are served by a different exchange (according to Samknows).

Ah, lines in built up areas can go, literally, around the houses on their
way back to the exchange, taking really circuitous routes. Unless you know
you only have a 3 mile line by talking to a BT engineer fixing it, (he'll
know from his reflectrometer) there could be a couple of miles spent
wandering off in strange directions.

another reason for the involved companies (BT Openreach (the wire), BT
Wholesale (the backhaul), UKOnline/Easynet) to bounce the problem
between themselves.

Is that a euphemism for passing the buck?

If you like, yes.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

You MAY find it better to go to ADSL MAX if you are not on it 'up to
8Mbps' is the key phrase. You won't get it, but at least the line will
rate adapt down to about as good as is possible at any give time.

I does happen sometimes ;-) I do just about... 8128 sync speed and 8000
feed rate from the ISP



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:34:44 +0000, a particular chimpanzee, Hugo
Nebula abuse@localhost randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Please bear with me: My ADSL router is connected via an extension
from the BT master socket in the hall. The distance to the exchange
is high and I've never got a particularly good connection, but it's
been acceptable at 1Mbps. I'm with UKOnline/Easynet LLU.

...Does this indicate that the problem is likely to be on
the BT/LLU side of things? If not, how can I test the quality of my
internal wiring?

Have just done a good couple of hours plugging routers, USBs, filters,
etc in all kinds of holes in all possible permutations. The
conclusion is this; the problem is somewhere between the test socket
and the socket on the faceplate.

I get the full 1Mbps speed test when connected via a USB or router,
with or without filter into the test socket, but anything plugged into
the faceplate socket drops to ~850kbps, and out of the 8 speed tests,
four timed out and the remainder got between 400-600kbps.

Can I replace part of this master socket? If BT do it, will they
charge (and roughly how much)? Do I go through my ISP or BT?
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed?"

Hugo Nebula wrote:

Can I replace part of this master socket? If BT do it, will they
charge (and roughly how much)? Do I go through my ISP or BT?

Replace the whole socket and try again:

http://www.solwise.co.uk/telesun.htm

or better still, replace the faceplate with a ADSL-NTEFACE:

http://www.solwise.co.uk/adsl_splitters.htm

That will filter all the house in one hit, and also has ADSL outputs on
both the back and front (so you can do a wired ADSL extension without
needing to use the RJ11 on the front of the filter)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Hugo Nebula wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:34:44 +0000, a particular chimpanzee, Hugo
Nebula abuse@localhost randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Please bear with me: My ADSL router is connected via an extension
from the BT master socket in the hall. The distance to the exchange
is high and I've never got a particularly good connection, but it's
been acceptable at 1Mbps. I'm with UKOnline/Easynet LLU.

...Does this indicate that the problem is likely to be on
the BT/LLU side of things? If not, how can I test the quality of my
internal wiring?

Have just done a good couple of hours plugging routers, USBs, filters,
etc in all kinds of holes in all possible permutations. The
conclusion is this; the problem is somewhere between the test socket
and the socket on the faceplate.

I get the full 1Mbps speed test when connected via a USB or router,
with or without filter into the test socket, but anything plugged into
the faceplate socket drops to ~850kbps, and out of the 8 speed tests,
four timed out and the remainder got between 400-600kbps.

Can I replace part of this master socket? If BT do it, will they
charge (and roughly how much)? Do I go through my ISP or BT?

Yes, and the recieved wisdom is that a filtering faceplate is the best
of all.

Try some contact spray on what you have first as well.

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:39:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Yes, and the recieved wisdom is that a filtering faceplate is the best
of all.

But isn't the case here. Bought an XTE2006 on the basis that it got good
reviews and would neaten up the wiring. On my line with my router (ZyXEL)
it was worse by a consistent and significant amount than the plug in BT
badged MF50 microfilter.

As with a lot of things related to ADSL it's suck it and see...

Try some contact spray on what you have first as well.

Unless you are going to use that highly expensive contact stuff(*) you may
as manually clean the contacts (if they are visibly mucky) or just plug
things in and out a few times. Phone and RJ45 contacts wipe very well when
insterted/withdrawn thus keeping the mating surfaces pretty clean.

(*) Stabilant 22. Though I have my doubts that it's cost justifies its
routine use on decent connectors.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Nov 19, 1:36 am, "Dave Liquorice" wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:39:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yes, and the recieved wisdom is that a filtering faceplate is the best
of all.

But isn't the case here. Bought an XTE2006 on the basis that it got good
reviews and would neaten up the wiring. On my line with my router (ZyXEL)
it was worse by a consistent and significant amount than the plug in BT
badged MF50 microfilter.

As with a lot of things related to ADSL it's suck it and see...

Try some contact spray on what you have first as well.

Unless you are going to use that highly expensive contact stuff(*) you may
as manually clean the contacts (if they are visibly mucky) or just plug
things in and out a few times. Phone and RJ45 contacts wipe very well when
insterted/withdrawn thus keeping the mating surfaces pretty clean.

(*)Stabilant22. Though I have my doubts that it's cost justifies its
routine use on decent connectors.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Even better, use DeoxIT. Works better, easier to apply, lasts longer
and is much less expensive.
www.deoxit.com

Mike

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:10:22 -0800 (PST), shaq wrote:

Even better, use DeoxIT. Works better, easier to apply, lasts longer
and is much less expensive.

Rival product with some legal battle in the present or past IIRC, or if
not legal a lot of FUD from both companies. Both are still rather close to
the serpentine for my liking.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Nov 19, 1:36 am, "Dave Liquorice" wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:39:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yes, and the recieved wisdom is that a filtering faceplate is the best
of all.

But isn't the case here. Bought an XTE2006 on the basis that it got good
reviews and would neaten up the wiring. On my line with my router (ZyXEL)
it was worse by a consistent and significant amount than the plug in BT
badged MF50 microfilter.

As with a lot of things related to ADSL it's suck it and see...

Try some contact spray on what you have first as well.

Unless you are going to use that highly expensive contact stuff(*) you may
as manually clean the contacts (if they are visibly mucky) or just plug
things in and out a few times. Phone and RJ45 contacts wipe very well when
insterted/withdrawn thus keeping the mating surfaces pretty clean.

(*)Stabilant 22. Though I have my doubts that it's cost justifies its
routine use on decent connectors.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Want something that works better than stabilant, try Deoxit and DeoxIT
GOLD. Chemically improves the connections, last a long time, many
convenient applicators and most important, works on moving as well as
stationary connections (under vibration). It is more of a very thin
liquid, then a grease, so it moves with the connection. You do not
even have to apply if to both plugs and sockets. If you can not apply
it to one of them (which is sometimes imposible), it will migrate to
the other metal surface and treat it also. Stuff is amazing AND very
cost effective. Not dirt cheap, but worth every pennie. Been using
it for over 10 years and it sometimes amazes me how well it works.
Go to www.deoxit.com for info.
Mike