On 2007-07-01 15:05:14 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:31:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:

snip most off you 'straw man' ********

Which are all relative to what the tool will be asked to do, who
will
be using it, how and were it will be used - someone who is up
scaffolding doesn't want a limited battery life on a coreless
drill,
someone who is using the same drill for 8 hrs a day will want
something with good ergonomics and serviceability, someone drilling
holes that have to line up with a mating part will want accuracy,
OTOH
someone doing a bit of DIY will probably only want functionality

Wrong assumption. "Doing a bit of DIY" does not mean that
ergonomics, servicability, accuracy and usability fall by the
wayside. This is the same incorrect logic that because something
is for DIY it should be cheap.


No you are wrong,

No I'm not.


do you really think that someone wanting to put up
the odd shelf or picture is going to buy a DeWalt (or similar) when
they know that they will be using the drill a couple of hours a
month -

Do you believe that that is the sum total of DIY activity? For some
people it may be. Perhaps it is for you. My range of activities and
expectations under the umbrella of DIY is rather wider.



you really are up your own arse on this,

On the contrary.


they just want
something that will drill a reasonable accurate hole.

Who is this "they"?

On 2007-07-01 15:15:26 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:45:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:
The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again as
Wickes sold enough of their stock.

Good grief.


Any company that believes that enough of their product is being sold
is not long for this world.


What didn't you understand about "in the UK",

Nothing at all. The comment was about limiting market size. This is
either through inadequate resources or because of some exclusivity or
incompetence.



they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now
consider Wickes their UK agent.

Go and take a look at their web site. Their *total* production is only
700k units per annum.



I'm sure that Snap-on could sell even tools more if they approached
someone like Halfords (in the UK) but they are still very successful
company with their self limiting sales approach!

Are they in the commodity part of the market?

It's one thing having a controlled RTM if you have a premium or
differentiated product. If you have a commodity product and are
limiting your marketplace then either you don't have the resources to
expand or are inept.

:Jerry: wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
dmc wrote:
snip
BMJ power was the place I took it IIRC - they went bust shortly
after :-(
Yup, I seem to recall ordering some B&D spares from them in the
past. They went tits up not long after.


So it was all your fault!... :~)

apparently!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

dmc wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

BTW, a couple of years back when dribble was spouting on about
Kress, I emailed them to ask about service arrangements in the uk.
The response I got is as follows (my obfuscation of email addies):

[snip]

I don't know if they have made any more service arrangements since
then, but they would have some way to go to match the levels of the
more well known brands.

Indeed. Given the prices are comparable now I'm not sure I'd go for
one again - I'd probably go for a known brand. Back when we bought
the thing it was considerably cheaper than the alternatives (this was
ages before Argos etc sold them. I don't think B&Q did either).

BMJ power was the place I took it IIRC - they went bust shortly after
:-(

That was a shame, they had a depot near me in Chatham which was very handy.
Bought a Makita router there 20 years ago + still use it.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
dmc wrote:

Indeed. Given the prices are comparable now I'm not sure I'd go for one
again - I'd probably go for a known brand. Back when we bought the thing
it was considerably cheaper than the alternatives (this was ages before
Argos etc sold them. I don't think B&Q did either).

my thoughts exactly.

BMJ power was the place I took it IIRC - they went bust shortly after :-(

Yup, I seem to recall ordering some B&D spares from them in the past. They
went tits up not long after.

They were a big chain and cold not compete with the sheds. They had High St
shops.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:Jerry: wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:45:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:
The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again as
Wickes sold enough of their stock.
Good grief.


Any company that believes that enough of their product is being sold is
not long for this world.


What didn't you understand about "in the UK", they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now consider
Wickes their UK agent.

I'm sure that Snap-on could sell even tools more if they approached
someone like Halfords (in the UK) but they are still very successful
company with their self limiting sales approach!

Snap-on know their market, and sell at a premium price to trade customers.
That does not seem to be the case with Kress in this country as yet. I
think it would make more sense if they did get someone like Wickes to sell
under the Kress label so as to establish some reputation over here.
However they would need to get some trade focussed distributors on board
as well and pretty sharpish if they are not going to have people associate
the name with kit aimed at the home DIY market only.

I would not cal, Wickes a DIY outlet. Most trade is to the trade.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:Jerry: wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:45:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:
The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again as
Wickes sold enough of their stock.
Good grief.


Any company that believes that enough of their product is being sold is
not long for this world.


What didn't you understand about "in the UK", they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now consider
Wickes their UK agent.

I'm sure that Snap-on could sell even tools more if they approached
someone like Halfords (in the UK) but they are still very successful
company with their self limiting sales approach!

Snap-on know their market, and sell at a premium price to trade customers.

They sell because they give credit to anyone.

That does not seem to be the case with Kress in this country as yet. I
think it would make more sense if they did get someone like Wickes to sell
under the Kress label so as to establish some reputation over here.

Kress were a common brand until their distributor went belly up. They appear
to be content with Wickes.

However they would need to get some trade focussed distributors on board
as well and pretty sharpish if they are not going to have people associate
the name with kit aimed at the home DIY market only.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2007-07-01 21:41:59 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:

There are probably more people out there who know that they have no
need to buy something like a DeWalt drill (professional products in
other words), and will happily ignore many of the considerations that
Andy seems to think need to be considered before buying a product,
those who need such pro products will of course consider *all* aspect
of owning a tool before investing in both make and tool.

I'm sure that there are more people who go out and buy products on
price without considering anything else. One sees them lined up at
the returns counter in B&Q with their products, 2 days out of warranty
and being told that there are no service and spares arrangements.
Reactions range from anger to incredulity after they learn that the
level of service that they had assumed would be there simply isn't and
they need to buy again. Now, all of a sudden, the £60 super-special
that seemed such a good deal compared with the proper product at £100
doesn't seem like such a good deal - especially with the time wasted in
extra trips.

People should look at all the aspects before buying things, whatever
they are and they are for. Doing otherwise is making an uninformed
purchase and there is fairly high probability of disappointment for one
reason or another.

The main point is the assumption that is being made here that because
something is "only for DIY" that any old rubbish will do and that price
is everything because of low usage. That is as wrong as suggesting
that everybody needs high end tools for every job (which, incidentally
I haven't said).

Unless all of the aspects are considered, it isn't possible to make an
informed decision.





Even if you do anticipate low usage, it depends on the tool in
question. For an ordinary percussion drill then they will all give
you a hole in most materials, and there will not be much to choose
between them. So cheaper will probably win for that category of
user.

If you are buying a router however, the quality of the tool makes a
difference to the finish you can achieve, so there is no point in
buying the cheaper one if the result is not acceptable.

But again that depends on why they are buying / needing a router, even
the cheapest will do certain tasks even if it won't give a fine,
accurate finish to highly visible work - for example many will be
buying a router to join their kitchen work tops or fit concealed
hinges to doors etc, not everyone is buying it having taken up
furniture making.

Joining of a kitchen worktop well and accurately is one of the obvious
reasons to buy a good quality router and bits as opposed to a junk one.




If you are assembling flat pack furniture and you want a mains drill
that can stick screws in as well as cope with general drilling tasks
then you would find the budget drills will fail rapidly. (quickest I
saw was a NuTool hammer drill that lasted about six mins used as a
screwdriver - after that there was smoke pouring out of it!)


Well yes, if one miss uses a tool anyone can kill it, pro or bodger,
quality tool or bargain basement...!

That would be excusable if the tool were used *beyond* its capability,
but at way below capability is an indicator of faulty design and
manufacture.

On 2007-07-01 23:34:45 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:Jerry: wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-01 12:45:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:
The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again as
Wickes sold enough of their stock.
Good grief.


Any company that believes that enough of their product is being sold is
not long for this world.


What didn't you understand about "in the UK", they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now consider
Wickes their UK agent.

I'm sure that Snap-on could sell even tools more if they approached
someone like Halfords (in the UK) but they are still very successful
company with their self limiting sales approach!

Snap-on know their market, and sell at a premium price to trade
customers. That does not seem to be the case with Kress in this country
as yet. I think it would make more sense if they did get someone like
Wickes to sell under the Kress label so as to establish some reputation
over here. However they would need to get some trade focussed
distributors on board as well and pretty sharpish if they are not going
to have people associate the name with kit aimed at the home DIY
market only.

I would not cal, Wickes a DIY outlet. Most trade is to the trade.

It's neither one thing nor the other. It attempts to be a DIY
outlet but has a poor selection of products. It attempts to be a
trade outlet but doesn't have the range and quality available in trade
outlets. Paints, electrical fittings, wood and construction materials
are obvious examples.

The only reason I go there is if on a Sunday I need some individual
item that they may have like a paintbrush or perhaps a bag of
aggregate. I don't think I've ever spent more than £30 on a visit to
Wickes.

On 2007-07-01 23:54:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


Kress were a common brand until their distributor went belly up. They
appear to be content with Wickes.


Based on what they have in other countries, I suspect that they don't
have a choice.

In France they have a subsidiary. In pretty much every other European
country they sell through tool distributors with the Kress brand.

Even in a small market such as Austria there are several distributors.

This points either to not having the resources to develop their brand
in the UK market, or more likely that there is an agreement with Wickes
that Kress will not sell their branded tools in the UK. This may or
may not have some volume commitments.

Either way, it is not consistent with their modus operandi elsewhere.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 21:41:59 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:

There are probably more people out there who know that they have no
need to buy something like a DeWalt drill (professional products in
other words), and will happily ignore many of the considerations that
Andy seems to think need to be considered before buying a product,
those who need such pro products will of course consider *all* aspect
of owning a tool before investing in both make and tool.

I'm sure that there are more people who go out and buy products on price
without considering anything else. One sees them lined up at the returns
counter in B&Q with their products, 2 days out of warranty and being told
that there are no service and spares arrangements.

Well that isn't true..
I took a tool back two weeks ago..
The switch had stopped working..
I didn't have a receipt and I said I couldn't remember when I bought it
(both true but I knew it was over a year).
They said I could have a credit note and just go and buy a new one if I
wanted.
No more than 60 seconds including printing the note.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 16:29:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:


"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message ...
snip

When I bought mine it was around £80 compared to the big brands at
£125. The Wickes is now £100 & the Makita is on promo at £115, so
I
might well make a different decision now, but I can't fault the
Wickes machine to be fair.


The above suggests that Makita are worried then, which means that
they
must be somewhat comparable is quality...

It suggests that they are doing a promo on a particular product.
Nothing more than that.

....and why the hell should they be doing that if their product has a
clear market position!


If there was a concern, all of the prices would have been reduced.


Rubbish.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 15:15:26 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:45:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:
The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again
as
Wickes sold enough of their stock.

Good grief.


Any company that believes that enough of their product is being
sold
is not long for this world.


What didn't you understand about "in the UK",

Nothing at all. The comment was about limiting market size. This
is either through inadequate resources or because of some
exclusivity or incompetence.



they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now
consider Wickes their UK agent.

Go and take a look at their web site. Their *total* production is
only 700k units per annum.


Oh and DeWalt went from 0 to 100.000.000 over night?

You really are so far up your own arse that I'm surprised that you
know if it's day or night!...



I'm sure that Snap-on could sell even tools more if they approached
someone like Halfords (in the UK) but they are still very
successful
company with their self limiting sales approach!

Are they in the commodity part of the market?

It's one thing having a controlled RTM if you have a premium or
differentiated product. If you have a commodity product and are
limiting your marketplace then either you don't have the resources
to expand or are inept.


Most of what Snap-on sell in the UK are commodity products, they only
survive due to brand loyalty - much the same as DeWalt in fact!

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 21:41:59 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:

There are probably more people out there who know that they have no
need to buy something like a DeWalt drill (professional products in
other words), and will happily ignore many of the considerations that
Andy seems to think need to be considered before buying a product,
those who need such pro products will of course consider *all* aspect
of owning a tool before investing in both make and tool.

I'm sure that there are more people who go out and buy products on price
without considering anything else. One sees them lined up at the returns
counter in B&Q with their products, 2 days out of warranty and being told
that there are no service and spares arrangements. Reactions range from
anger to incredulity after they learn that the level of service that they
had assumed would be there simply isn't and they need to buy again.

When my outlaw used a PP drill as a hammer, we took it back. "Pick another
off the shelf sir". Delighted, a brand newy again.

The main point is the assumption that is being made here that because
something is "only for DIY" that any old rubbish will do and that price is
everything because of low usage. That is as wrong as suggesting that
everybody needs high end tools for every job (which, incidentally I
haven't said).

Some tools require accuracy whether DIY or not. An average drill needs to
dill in wood or brick and accuracy is not a big thing. For occasional use
the average DIY drill is fine. In fact a mains drill for £10-15 is
brilliant, no batteries to worry about fading altogether.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 23:34:45 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:Jerry: wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:45:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:
The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again as
Wickes sold enough of their stock.
Good grief.


Any company that believes that enough of their product is being sold
is not long for this world.


What didn't you understand about "in the UK", they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now consider
Wickes their UK agent.

I'm sure that Snap-on could sell even tools more if they approached
someone like Halfords (in the UK) but they are still very successful
company with their self limiting sales approach!

Snap-on know their market, and sell at a premium price to trade
customers. That does not seem to be the case with Kress in this country
as yet. I think it would make more sense if they did get someone like
Wickes to sell under the Kress label so as to establish some reputation
over here. However they would need to get some trade focussed
distributors on board as well and pretty sharpish if they are not going
to have people associate the name with kit aimed at the home DIY market
only.

I would not call Wickes a DIY outlet. Most trade is to the trade.

It's neither one thing nor the other.

I said "Most trade is to the trade." Wickes stores are full of white vans
in the car park.

It attempts to be a DIY outlet but has a poor selection of products.

That is true. They prodduct range is geared towards the building trade. They
are competitive in price on most things.

It attempts to be a trade outlet but doesn't have the range and quality
available in trade outlets.

Nonsense. Their electrical and plumbing ranges are good quality overall.
Their power tool ranges is second to none covering all type from DIY to full
pro.

On 2007-07-02 08:40:34 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 21:41:59 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:

There are probably more people out there who know that they have no
need to buy something like a DeWalt drill (professional products in
other words), and will happily ignore many of the considerations that
Andy seems to think need to be considered before buying a product,
those who need such pro products will of course consider *all* aspect
of owning a tool before investing in both make and tool.

I'm sure that there are more people who go out and buy products on price
without considering anything else. One sees them lined up at the returns
counter in B&Q with their products, 2 days out of warranty and being told
that there are no service and spares arrangements.

Well that isn't true..
I took a tool back two weeks ago..
The switch had stopped working..
I didn't have a receipt and I said I couldn't remember when I bought it
(both true but I knew it was over a year).
They said I could have a credit note and just go and buy a new one if I
wanted.
No more than 60 seconds including printing the note.

I have seen precisely the situation that I described, so it is true.

Did they offer spares and service?

For you, they were feeling magnanimous and gave you the benefit of the
doubt, probably knowing when the product was first introduced.

BTW, I wouldn't have accepted the 2 days out of warranty line anyway,
based on the Sale of Goods Act. Reasonableness would suggest 2 years
on a cheap tool unless it really is the very lowest of the low.
However most customers are either unaware of or won't argue the point.

In general B&Q do have a fair returns policy, I agree, but it's not
always offered without asking or pushing.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 23:54:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


Kress were a common brand until their distributor went belly up. They
appear to be content with Wickes.


Based on what they have in other countries, I suspect that they don't have
a choice.

In France they have a subsidiary. In pretty much every other European
country they sell through tool distributors with the Kress brand.

Even in a small market such as Austria there are several distributors.

This points either to not having the resources to develop their brand in
the UK market, or more likely that there is an agreement with Wickes that
Kress will not sell their branded tools in the UK. This may or may not
have some volume commitments.

Either way, it is not consistent with their modus operandi elsewhere.

More this "or more likely that there is an agreement with Wickes that Kress
will not sell their branded tools in the UK." Nevertheless Kress is a
quality brand at competitive prices no matter what name is on the side.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 17:46:43 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 13:39:10 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

A good deal as it is usually around £90 and being a Ryobi is equiv to a
Makita of around £110

The fair market price for a Techtronics Ryobi drill is in the £50 area.

It is nowhere close in quality to Makita.

You have never used one.

Incorrect.

The 700w Makita is actually cheaper than the 700w Ryobi in s/fix.

and....


Ryobi has a two yr guarantee to 1 yr.

and....

They stand by their product.

Ryobi make equiv to Makita.

Wrong

Right.

Kress are better than Makita

Also wrong

Very right.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 17:41:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

It is a Kress and more reliable than the rest - boy are you dumb!

Data?

Do a Goggle on this group and the compliments on the Wickes/Kress SDS drill
on here are many.

On 2007-07-02 09:19:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:
name with kit aimed at the home DIY market only.

I would not call Wickes a DIY outlet. Most trade is to the trade.

It's neither one thing nor the other.

I said "Most trade is to the trade." Wickes stores are full of white
vans in the car park.

No they aren't. I drove past one the other morning fairly early in
the morning when one would expect a peak of trade use. A few cars.
No trade vans or pickups. I drove back past a different one at
around 1700 - again a typical trade time - no vans. I went to one
on Saturday morning, quite early, for a bag of ballast. Quite a few
DIY browsers. No trade vans. If the trade are using these
places, they are doing so at times when they are not frequenting
builders merchants, which seems implausible.



It attempts to be a DIY outlet but has a poor selection of products.

That is true. They prodduct range is geared towards the building trade.

Very limited if so. They don't even have a comprehensive range of
electrical fittings and the paint selection is dire.

They are competitive in price on most things.

It attempts to be a trade outlet but doesn't have the range and quality
available in trade outlets.

Nonsense. Their electrical and plumbing ranges are good quality overall.

Plumbing doesn't matter too much, but electrical fittings do. Only own
brand, rather mediocre and unclear how long they would be available.

Their power tool ranges is second to none covering all type from DIY
to full pro.

Cheap to mid range. Nothing special.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 15:05:14 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:31:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:

snip most off you 'straw man' ********

Which are all relative to what the tool will be asked to do, who
will
be using it, how and were it will be used - someone who is up
scaffolding doesn't want a limited battery life on a coreless
drill,
someone who is using the same drill for 8 hrs a day will want
something with good ergonomics and serviceability, someone drilling
holes that have to line up with a mating part will want accuracy,
OTOH
someone doing a bit of DIY will probably only want functionality

Wrong assumption. "Doing a bit of DIY" does not mean that
ergonomics, servicability, accuracy and usability fall by the
wayside. This is the same incorrect logic that because something
is for DIY it should be cheap.


No you are wrong,

No I'm not.


do you really think that someone wanting to put up
the odd shelf or picture is going to buy a DeWalt (or similar) when
they know that they will be using the drill a couple of hours a
month -

Do you believe that that is the sum total of DIY activity? For some
people it may be. Perhaps it is for you. My range of activities and
expectations under the umbrella of DIY is rather wider.

The problem with you is that you are a wannabee tradesman. Never managed to
be a craftsman so buy pro tool to convince himself that he is as good as
them. In fact, most tradesmen do buy on price. They know the tools will not
last that long and don't care as it is cost effective to do so. If a tool
lasts over 3 years they delighted, as in that time it has probably bounced
150 times.

you really are up your own arse on this,

On the contrary.

You are.

they just want
something that will drill a reasonable accurate hole.

Who is this "they"?

People who want space with matter around it.

On 2007-07-02 08:53:09 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 16:29:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:


"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message ...
snip

When I bought mine it was around £80 compared to the big brands at
£125. The Wickes is now £100 & the Makita is on promo at £115, so
I
might well make a different decision now, but I can't fault the
Wickes machine to be fair.


The above suggests that Makita are worried then, which means that
they
must be somewhat comparable is quality...

It suggests that they are doing a promo on a particular product.
Nothing more than that.

...and why the hell should they be doing that if their product has a
clear market position!

Taken across the whole product portfolio, the market shares are clear
and widely documented.

Looking at individual products, there are numerous reasons for doing a
promotion which have nothing to do with being worried about a minor
manufacturer:

- The product is going end of life in production and stocks are being
cleared for a new one

- There are some economies of scale in production from increased volume.

- Capture some market share on a given product line from a competitor

- Push more product through a given channel, increasing commissions for
sales staff and encouraging them to sell other products in the range.
Focus in other words

- Spoiler to small beer competition to force them to drop prices and
margin further

- New marketing manager wants to impress his boss.

All of these, and more, are common promo reasons across a broad
spectrum of products. I've used all of them myself except the last at
one point or another.





If there was a concern, all of the prices would have been reduced.


Rubbish.

Not really. You don't understand how marketing is done by major
manufacturers, do you....

On 2007-07-02 09:15:03 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-01 21:41:59 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:

There are probably more people out there who know that they have no
need to buy something like a DeWalt drill (professional products in
other words), and will happily ignore many of the considerations that
Andy seems to think need to be considered before buying a product,
those who need such pro products will of course consider *all* aspect
of owning a tool before investing in both make and tool.

I'm sure that there are more people who go out and buy products on
price without considering anything else. One sees them lined up at
the returns counter in B&Q with their products, 2 days out of warranty
and being told that there are no service and spares arrangements.
Reactions range from anger to incredulity after they learn that the
level of service that they had assumed would be there simply isn't and
they need to buy again.

When my outlaw used a PP drill as a hammer, we took it back. "Pick
another off the shelf sir". Delighted, a brand newy again.

... and this was after the warranty had expired, was it?



The main point is the assumption that is being made here that because
something is "only for DIY" that any old rubbish will do and that price
is everything because of low usage. That is as wrong as suggesting
that everybody needs high end tools for every job (which, incidentally
I haven't said).

Some tools require accuracy whether DIY or not. An average drill needs
to dill in wood or brick and accuracy is not a big thing.

Where do condiments for salmon come into this?


For occasional use the average DIY drill is fine.

Not logical. Amount of usage is totally different to performance and
usability.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:19:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:
name with kit aimed at the home DIY market only.

I would not call Wickes a DIY outlet. Most trade is to the trade.

It's neither one thing nor the other.

I said "Most trade is to the trade." Wickes stores are full of white
vans in the car park.

No they aren't.

They are.

I drove past one the other morning fairly early in the morning when one
would expect a peak of trade use.

They don't work on Sunday.

Their power tool ranges is second to none covering all type from DIY to
full pro.

Cheap to mid range. Nothing special.

Kress and Hitachi? My oh my!

On 2007-07-02 09:12:42 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now
consider Wickes their UK agent.

Go and take a look at their web site. Their *total* production is
only 700k units per annum.


Oh and DeWalt went from 0 to 100.000.000 over night?

Of course not. It is a business established over a period of time
including establishment of brand loyalty. That only happens with
good designs, good manufacturing, (especially) good marketing and good
service.




You really are so far up your own arse that I'm surprised that you
know if it's day or night!...

I think you've lost the plot. You certainly haven't understood how
design, manufacturing and marketing works.


Most of what Snap-on sell in the UK are commodity products, they only
survive due to brand loyalty - much the same as DeWalt in fact!

Which illustrates the point admirably.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 17:41:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:

It is a Kress and more reliable than the rest - boy are you dumb!

Data?

Do a Goggle on this group and the compliments on the Wickes/Kress
SDS drill on here are many.

LOL, what does that prove?!...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:15:03 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:

snip

For occasional use the average DIY drill is fine.

Not logical. Amount of usage is totally different to performance
and usability.



That is total bollkocks, more straw Andy?...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

It's neither one thing nor the other.

I said "Most trade is to the trade." Wickes stores are full of white
vans in the car park.

I guess this will vary by branch... then one I go to (Rayleigh) gets
some trade, but 3/4 of the punters are jo public.

It attempts to be a DIY outlet but has a poor selection of products.

That is true. They prodduct range is geared towards the building trade.
They are competitive in price on most things.

They are competitive on the basic building materials. For things like
plaster etc they are the best place round here to buy from - good price
and high turnover, the bags are usually still hot when you pick them up.

Hand tools are basic but ok. Nothing to get excited about.

Plumbing again ok for the basic stuff, but poor compared to even a small
plumbers merchant, and prices are high.

It attempts to be a trade outlet but doesn't have the range and
quality available in trade outlets.

Nonsense. Their electrical and plumbing ranges are good quality overall.

Electrical is ok at ours but nothing special. The range is a bit limited
(i.e. they have one have brand of most accessories).

Their power tool ranges is second to none covering all type from DIY to
full pro.

Ours is very poor in comparison to say the nearest B&Q super
whorehouse[1]. A range of the usual own brand low end stuff, some better
but variable grey bodied stuff, and until recently not much else.
Reasonable range of drills, but little choice on other tools. They have
just started stocking a limited range of Hitachi stuff though. But if
you wanted a decent SC mitre saw for example you would be stuffed.

[1] The Chelmsford B&Q has quite a sizeable area of floor space
dedicated to power tools. Across a reasonably wide lineup of makers. The
own brand stuff only taking a small amount of shelf space compared to
the rest. If you wanted to pick up and buy a thicknesser, mig welder, SC
mitre saw, compressor, generator, or router table. They would usually
not only have one, but a choice.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:12:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:


they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now
consider Wickes their UK agent.

Go and take a look at their web site. Their *total* production is
only 700k units per annum.


Oh and DeWalt went from 0 to 100.000.000 over night?

Of course not. It is a business established over a period of time
including establishment of brand loyalty. That only happens with
good designs, good manufacturing, (especially) good marketing and
good service.


...and many well known brands were first 'imported' into the UK as an
own brand label for an existing brand or outlet and then switched to
their true name later.




You really are so far up your own arse that I'm surprised that you
know if it's day or night!...

I think you've lost the plot. You certainly haven't understood how
design, manufacturing and marketing works.

No, you are doing that.



Most of what Snap-on sell in the UK are commodity products, they
only
survive due to brand loyalty - much the same as DeWalt in fact!

Which illustrates the point admirably.


Yes, MY point, hence why you have removed your own pervious comment!

On 2007-07-02 09:43:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-01 17:41:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

It is a Kress and more reliable than the rest - boy are you dumb!

Data?

Do a Goggle on this group and the compliments on the Wickes/Kress SDS
drill on here are many.

The vast majority of which were written by you after asking the manager
in Wickes.

On 2007-07-02 10:02:59 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:15:03 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:

snip

For occasional use the average DIY drill is fine.

Not logical. Amount of usage is totally different to performance
and usability.



That is total bollkocks, more straw Andy?...

I'm sorry, but it isn't.

Do you mean to tell me that you don't know the difference between
amount of usage, performance and usability?
I can explain it if you are having difficulty with the concept.

On 2007-07-02 09:50:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


The problem with you is that you are a wannabee tradesman.

I am not and have never claimed to be. Now you, on the other hand......


Never managed to be a craftsman so buy pro tool to convince himself
that he is as good as them.

I think I detect a note of sour grapes here.


In fact, most tradesmen do buy on price.

None that I have met, know or used.


They know the tools will not last that long and don't care as it is
cost effective to do so.

That depends on the person and the care taken.


If a tool lasts over 3 years they delighted, as in that time it has
probably bounced 150 times.

As it should do if a quality one is purchased.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:15:03 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 21:41:59 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:

There are probably more people out there who know that they have no
need to buy something like a DeWalt drill (professional products in
other words), and will happily ignore many of the considerations that
Andy seems to think need to be considered before buying a product,
those who need such pro products will of course consider *all* aspect
of owning a tool before investing in both make and tool.

I'm sure that there are more people who go out and buy products on price
without considering anything else. One sees them lined up at the
returns counter in B&Q with their products, 2 days out of warranty and
being told that there are no service and spares arrangements.
Reactions range from anger to incredulity after they learn that the
level of service that they had assumed would be there simply isn't and
they need to buy again.

When my outlaw used a PP drill as a hammer, we took it back. "Pick
another off the shelf sir". Delighted, a brand newy again.

.. and this was after the warranty had expired, was it?

He never had a receipt. I eventually persuaded him to buy Kress SDS.

For occasional use the average DIY drill is fine.

Not logical.

Matt, you are mad.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:12:42 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:

You really are so far up your own arse that I'm surprised that you
know if it's day or night!...

I think you've lost the plot.

What does your prostrate look like from in there?

On 2007-07-02 09:54:34 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-02 09:19:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:
name with kit aimed at the home DIY market only.

I would not call Wickes a DIY outlet. Most trade is to the trade.

It's neither one thing nor the other.

I said "Most trade is to the trade." Wickes stores are full of white
vans in the car park.

No they aren't.

They are.

Not the ones that I have seen.



I drove past one the other morning fairly early in the morning when
one would expect a peak of trade use.

They don't work on Sunday.

I didn't mention Sunday in this article



Their power tool ranges is second to none covering all type from DIY to
full pro.

Cheap to mid range. Nothing special.

Kress and Hitachi? My oh my!

Hitachi is a recent offering, presumably because they have figured out
that Kress does not cut it from the product offering point of view as a
professional product. It doesn't matter whether guarantees are 5
years, there is still the issue that shop private label products are
considered to be not as good in terms of the complete product offering.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:43:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 17:41:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

It is a Kress and more reliable than the rest - boy are you dumb!

Data?

Do a Goggle on this group and the compliments on the Wickes/Kress SDS
drill on here are many.

The vast majority of which were written by you after asking the manager in
Wickes.

You made that up.

On 2007-07-02 10:11:53 +0100, John Rumm said:

[1] The Chelmsford B&Q has quite a sizeable area of floor space
dedicated to power tools. Across a reasonably wide lineup of makers.
The own brand stuff only taking a small amount of shelf space compared
to the rest. If you wanted to pick up and buy a thicknesser, mig
welder, SC mitre saw, compressor, generator, or router table. They
would usually not only have one, but a choice.

The Reading one does as well. Quite a convenient place to go and look
and touch the product offerings before buying on line. Prices are
quite high.

How long that will last, I wonder. Previously they attempted tool
rental, but that didn't seem successful.

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:12:42 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now
consider Wickes their UK agent.

Go and take a look at their web site. Their *total* production is
only 700k units per annum.


Oh and DeWalt went from 0 to 100.000.000 over night?

Of course not. It is a business established over a period of time
including establishment of brand loyalty. That only happens with good
designs, good manufacturing, (especially) good marketing and good
service.


..and many well known brands were first 'imported' into the UK as an own
brand label for an existing brand or outlet and then switched to their
true name later.




You really are so far up your own arse that I'm surprised that you
know if it's day or night!...

I think you've lost the plot. You certainly haven't understood how
design, manufacturing and marketing works.

No, you are doing that.

He is. Most people only care of the product is good and well priced.

On 2007-07-02 09:37:22 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-01 23:54:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


Kress were a common brand until their distributor went belly up. They
appear to be content with Wickes.


Based on what they have in other countries, I suspect that they don't
have a choice.

In France they have a subsidiary. In pretty much every other European
country they sell through tool distributors with the Kress brand.

Even in a small market such as Austria there are several distributors.

This points either to not having the resources to develop their brand
in the UK market, or more likely that there is an agreement with Wickes
that Kress will not sell their branded tools in the UK. This may or
may not have some volume commitments.

Either way, it is not consistent with their modus operandi elsewhere.

More this "or more likely that there is an agreement with Wickes that
Kress will not sell their branded tools in the UK." Nevertheless Kress
is a quality brand at competitive prices no matter what name is on the
side.

It really doesn't matter. Why do you think that Wickes have added Hitachi?

- Customers are not buying your argument that Wickes' private label
Kress product is professional despite 5 yr warranties. The trouble
is that the other DIY stores have screwed that one by offering 3yr
warranties on junk and playing the numbers game

- B&Q are selling a range of branded products and (IIRC) don't have
Hitachi. Differentiation and what's left in the broad range quality
brands after DeWalt, Bosch and Makita are taken out.

- Want to see if their customer base will go for a higher ASP product range.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:50:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


The problem with you is that you are a wannabee tradesman.

I am not and have never claimed to be. Now you, on the other hand......


Never managed to be a craftsman so buy pro tool to convince himself
that he is as good as them.

I think I detect a note of sour grapes here.

Matt, you are mad. A wannabee.

In fact, most tradesmen do buy on price.

None that I have met, know or used.

You have not met many.

They know the tools will not last that long and don't care as it is cost
effective to do so.

That depends on the person and the care taken.

If a tool lasts over 3 years they delighted, as in that time it has
probably bounced 150 times.

As it should do if a quality one is purchased.

They don't like buying top prices in case the thing walks or does not bounce
high enough.