"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Their [Wickes] power tool ranges is second to none covering all type
from DIY to full pro.

Cheap to mid range. Nothing special.

Kress and Hitachi? My oh my!

Hitachi is a recent offering, presumably because they have figured out
that Kress does not cut it from the product offering point of view as a
professional product.

You made that up.

It doesn't matter whether guarantees are 5 years,

It does.

there is still the issue that shop private label products are considered
to be not as good in terms of the complete product offering.

In your tiny mind. Wickes has a good reputation in the trade.

On 2007-07-02 10:16:52 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:12:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:


they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now
consider Wickes their UK agent.

Go and take a look at their web site. Their *total* production is
only 700k units per annum.


Oh and DeWalt went from 0 to 100.000.000 over night?

Of course not. It is a business established over a period of time
including establishment of brand loyalty. That only happens with
good designs, good manufacturing, (especially) good marketing and
good service.


..and many well known brands were first 'imported' into the UK as an
own brand label for an existing brand or outlet and then switched to
their true name later.

Mmm.. Kress do not appear to have done this. Rather the reverse.
Not a good sign.







You really are so far up your own arse that I'm surprised that you
know if it's day or night!...

I think you've lost the plot. You certainly haven't understood how
design, manufacturing and marketing works.

No, you are doing that.

Oh dear.




Most of what Snap-on sell in the UK are commodity products, they
only
survive due to brand loyalty - much the same as DeWalt in fact!

Which illustrates the point admirably.


Yes, MY point, hence why you have removed your own pervious comment!

The point still stands that a business will ultimately lose market
share and fail if it doesn't grow these. It's possible to sell
commodity grade products at premium prices, of course - TTI does that
well with its brands - but that requires a big marketing spend.
Take a look at the full page Ryobi adverts in the magazines

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

I think I detect a note of sour grapes here.


Truth hurts you then Andy?....

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 09:37:22 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 23:54:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


Kress were a common brand until their distributor went belly up. They
appear to be content with Wickes.


Based on what they have in other countries, I suspect that they don't
have a choice.

In France they have a subsidiary. In pretty much every other European
country they sell through tool distributors with the Kress brand.

Even in a small market such as Austria there are several distributors.

This points either to not having the resources to develop their brand in
the UK market, or more likely that there is an agreement with Wickes
that Kress will not sell their branded tools in the UK. This may or
may not have some volume commitments.

Either way, it is not consistent with their modus operandi elsewhere.

More this "or more likely that there is an agreement with Wickes that
Kress will not sell their branded tools in the UK." Nevertheless Kress
is a quality brand at competitive prices no matter what name is on the
side.

It really doesn't matter.

Yep, it doesn't. Quality is quality. You think label.

Why do you think that Wickes have added Hitachi?

To enhance their range and choice. Duh!

- Customers are not buying your argument that Wickes' private label Kress
product is professional despite 5 yr warranties.

They are.

The trouble is that the other DIY stores have screwed that one by offering
3yr warranties on junk and playing the numbers game

Wickes have a big signes indicating what is what and the colour of the drill
tells what level of quality you get. Brilliant. Black - DIY, blue -
semi-pro, grey- full pro. No ambiguity.

- B&Q are selling a range of branded products and (IIRC) don't have
Hitachi.

So? S/fix sell Hitachi. You are saying Hitachi are poor products because
they are sold by Wickes and you are losing an argument big time?

On 2007-07-02 10:46:36 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-02 09:43:24 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-01 17:41:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

It is a Kress and more reliable than the rest - boy are you dumb!

Data?

Do a Goggle on this group and the compliments on the Wickes/Kress SDS
drill on here are many.

The vast majority of which were written by you after asking the manager
in Wickes.

You made that up.

No the manager did.

On 2007-07-02 10:55:07 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

In fact, most tradesmen do buy on price.

None that I have met, know or used.

You have not met many.

..... and you shadow my every movement, do you?

Have you died and been reincarnated as a cat by any chance?

Admittedly one of mine does come in wet quite often. I've never seen
his hacksaw though.

On 2007-07-02 10:58:18 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

I think I detect a note of sour grapes here.


Truth hurts you then Andy?....

Even if it were, it wouldn't, but it isn't so certainly doesn't.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

snip

Wickes have a big signes indicating what is what and the colour of
the drill tells what level of quality you get. Brilliant. Black -
DIY, blue - semi-pro, grey- full pro. No ambiguity.


Until the same ignorant customer steps into B&Q to compare prices...

Andy is right about one thing, the tools spec' should be consulted and
not what colour the tool is.

On 2007-07-02 10:57:08 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

Their [Wickes] power tool ranges is second to none covering all type
from DIY to full pro.

Cheap to mid range. Nothing special.

Kress and Hitachi? My oh my!

Hitachi is a recent offering, presumably because they have figured out
that Kress does not cut it from the product offering point of view as a
professional product.

You made that up.

It doesn't matter whether guarantees are 5 years,

It does.

there is still the issue that shop private label products are
considered to be not as good in terms of the complete product offering.

In your tiny mind. Wickes has a good reputation in the trade.

So what is your explanation for Hitachi being added?

On 2007-07-02 11:03:57 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


Yep, it doesn't. Quality is quality. You think label.

You don't understand the differences between label, brand and product offering




Why do you think that Wickes have added Hitachi?

To enhance their range and choice. Duh!

Exactly.


- Customers are not buying your argument that Wickes' private label
Kress product is professional despite 5 yr warranties.

They are.

Then why add another if the range is comprehensive as you say?


The trouble is that the other DIY stores have screwed that one by
offering 3yr warranties on junk and playing the numbers game

Wickes have a big signes indicating what is what and the colour of the
drill tells what level of quality you get. Brilliant. Black - DIY,
blue - semi-pro, grey- full pro. No ambiguity.

... and green/black? Is this super special full pro or what?



- B&Q are selling a range of branded products and (IIRC) don't have Hitachi.

So? S/fix sell Hitachi. You are saying Hitachi are poor products
because they are sold by Wickes and you are losing an argument big time?

I haven't said anything of the sort.

The point is that B&Q are selling DeWalt, Makita and Bosch but not
Hitachi (IIRC).

If Wickes are looking for differentiation, then they may well choose
another broad range manufacturer. That's really the only one left.

Another possibility is that B&Q (if they are smart) have something
written into the contracts with the manufacturers not to sell to
Wickes. Again, IIRC, Homebase and Focus are not selling these
products either.

Screwfix is a different discussion entirely because it's a different
type of channel.

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
dmc wrote:

BMJ power was the place I took it IIRC - they went bust shortly after
:-(

That was a shame, they had a depot near me in Chatham which was very handy.
Bought a Makita router there 20 years ago + still use it.

That was the one I suspect - opposite Toy'r'us?

Darren

On 2007-07-02 10:40:09 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

What does your prostrate look like from in there?

Another classic from our master of the English language.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Their [Wickes] power tool ranges is second to none covering all
type from DIY to full pro.

Cheap to mid range. Nothing special.

Kress and Hitachi? My oh my!

Hitachi is a recent offering, presumably because they have figured out
that Kress does not cut it from the product offering point of view as
a professional product.

You made that up.

It doesn't matter whether guarantees are 5 years,

It does.

there is still the issue that shop private label products are
considered to be not as good in terms of the complete product offering.

In your tiny mind. Wickes has a good reputation in the trade.





It's becoming obvious that Andy is a tool snob, and will invent
imaginary scenarios (like people lining up at the B&Q returns counter)
to justify his tool addiction.
Horses for courses is the only sane approach. A cheap jigsaw will cut
laminate flooring, but not a worktop. A cheap drill will do much the
same as an expensive one providing you don't intend using it all day and
dropping it off scaffolding. Both strategies are equally valid and the
market structured accordingly. The idea that anyone on here has an
intimate knowledge of what Makita or Kress are thinking is faintly
ridiculous.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 10:55:07 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:

In fact, most tradesmen do buy on price.

None that I have met, know or used.

You have not met many.

.... and you shadow my every movement, do you?

Have you died and been reincarnated as a cat by any chance?

Admittedly one of mine does come in wet quite often. I've never
seen his hacksaw though.


Hmm, that's probably because you've had him neutered (think about
it...), if only one could have all the Drivels of the world neutered.

On 2007-07-02 11:23:43 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:

It's becoming obvious that Andy is a tool snob, and will invent
imaginary scenarios (like people lining up at the B&Q returns counter)
to justify his tool addiction.

If you don't want to buy quality products, that is your choice.

Have you never seen people at B&Q returning broken products? I
would find that surprising.

Horses for courses is the only sane approach.

Exactly.



A cheap jigsaw will cut laminate flooring, but not a worktop.

Assuming that one were to lay laminate flooring in the first place. A
cheap jigsaw won't even cut a reasonable line on thin material. As
to using a jigsaw to cut a worktop, the suggestion is ridiculous, for
any jigsaw unless you are talking about the hole for a sink.


A cheap drill will do much the same as an expensive one providing you
don't intend using it all day and dropping it off scaffolding. Both
strategies are equally valid and the market structured accordingly.

Level of utilisation is only one factor. Others are weight,
ergnonomics, precision of control, accuracy and servicability.


The idea that anyone on here has an intimate knowledge of what Makita
or Kress are thinking is faintly ridiculous.

Other than the management of the companies concerned, that is obviously
true. However, market reports and financial data are in the public
domain. Marketing strategies for distributed products are common
across virtually all industries.

Part of marketing is figuring out what the moves of your competitors
are likely to be before they make them and that is done usually without
intimate knowledge.

Given all of that, it is not very difficult to work out a range of
possible scenarios for business practices and that is what has been
described.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 10:55:07 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

In fact, most tradesmen do buy on price.

None that I have met, know or used.

You have not met many.

.... and you shadow my every movement, do you?

Have you died and been reincarnated as a cat by any chance?

Admittedly one of mine

You have cats? My, oh, my!

On 2007-07-02 11:54:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-02 10:55:07 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

In fact, most tradesmen do buy on price.

None that I have met, know or used.

You have not met many.

.... and you shadow my every movement, do you?

Have you died and been reincarnated as a cat by any chance?

Admittedly one of mine

You have cats? My, oh, my!

Three.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 10:57:08 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Their [Wickes] power tool ranges is second to none covering all type
from DIY to full pro.

Cheap to mid range. Nothing special.

Kress and Hitachi? My oh my!

Hitachi is a recent offering, presumably because they have figured out
that Kress does not cut it from the product offering point of view as a
professional product.

You made that up.

It doesn't matter whether guarantees are 5 years,

It does.

there is still the issue that shop private label products are considered
to be not as good in terms of the complete product offering.

In your tiny mind. Wickes has a good reputation in the trade.

So what is your explanation for Hitachi being added?

Choice and to make money. Duh!

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Their [Wickes] power tool ranges is second to none covering all type
from DIY to full pro.

Cheap to mid range. Nothing special.

Kress and Hitachi? My oh my!

Hitachi is a recent offering, presumably because they have figured out
that Kress does not cut it from the product offering point of view as a
professional product.

You made that up.

It doesn't matter whether guarantees are 5 years,

It does.

there is still the issue that shop private label products are considered
to be not as good in terms of the complete product offering.

In your tiny mind. Wickes has a good reputation in the trade.





It's becoming obvious that Andy is a tool snob, and will invent imaginary
scenarios (like people lining up at the B&Q returns counter) to justify
his tool addiction.
Horses for courses is the only sane approach. A cheap jigsaw will cut
laminate flooring, but not a worktop. A cheap drill will do much the same
as an expensive one providing you don't intend using it all day and
dropping it off scaffolding. Both strategies are equally valid and the
market structured accordingly. The idea that anyone on here has an
intimate knowledge of what Makita or Kress are thinking is faintly
ridiculous.

I fully agree with you. He slags a quality maker because it allows its
product to be rebadged - and this high service, quality family business
throws a spanner in the works of his warped views. Initially Kress sold in
Wickes as Kress.

On 2007-07-02 12:09:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

I fully agree with you. He slags a quality maker because it allows its
product to be rebadged

No I haven't, I've simply highlighted that they have limitations and
are attempting to compete in the mass market with a me-too product
range. For me, that is a cause for concern. If I were buying
products to have a one year lifetime and throw them away, I wouldn't
care. However, I don't, but rather buy for a much longer period. I
would rather buy a good quality item once than three mediocre ones
lasting for maybe the same time. For that reason, I want to be
convinced about long term viability of the supplier.

To me, small volume, commodity market, selling private label in a major
market, not having anything innovative, high cost manufacturing
locations are all warning bells. They don't fit together. Having
an apparently good service compounds this further. I am not
slagging them off. Far from it, I wish them all the luck in the world
because they are going to need it. However, I won't buy their
products.

OTOH, if they were acquired by a substantive company, moved their
product up market and added some innovative products, it would be a
very different matter. I would much prefer to purchase a product
manufactured in Europe. However, there aren't any quality broad
range products left with the exception of Festool and Metabo.

- and this high service, quality family business throws a spanner in
the works of his warped views.

I haven't said that Kress isn't providing good service. What Wickes
is offering for their private labeled version may be something else.

Moreover, I have not said that either product is bad, but from looking
at, picking up and operating several, I do not find the quality level
to be as good as that of Makita for drills and Bosch for jigsaws.
That's an opinion.



Initially Kress sold in Wickes as Kress.

So why isn't it any longer?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 12:09:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

I fully agree with you. He slags a quality maker because it allows its
product to be rebadged

No I haven't,

You have.

I've simply highlighted that they have limitations and are attempting to
compete in the mass market with a me-too product range. For me, that is
a cause for concern. If I were buying products to have a one year
lifetime and throw them away, I wouldn't care. However, I don't, but
rather buy for a much longer period. I would rather buy a good quality
item once than three mediocre ones lasting for maybe the same time. For
that reason, I want to be convinced about long term viability of the
supplier.

To me, small volume, commodity market, selling private label in a major
market, not having anything innovative, high cost manufacturing locations
are all warning bells. They don't fit together. Having an apparently
good service compounds this further. I am not slagging them off. Far
from it, I wish them all the luck in the world because they are going to
need it. However, I won't buy their products.

OTOH, if they were acquired by a substantive company, moved their product
up market and added some innovative products, it would be a very different
matter. I would much prefer to purchase a product manufactured in
Europe.

Like Kress/Wickes?

However, there aren't any quality broad range products left with the
exception of Festool and Metabo.

There is Kress. Cable Porter (Norm Abe'?) in the USA redbage the same Kress
SDS drills that Wickes use and other products too.

- and this high service, quality family business throws a spanner in the
works of his warped views.

I haven't said that Kress isn't providing good service. What Wickes is
offering for their private labeled version may be something else.

The same service agent - common sense would say that.

Moreover, I have not said that either product is bad, but from looking at,
picking up and operating several, I do not find the quality level to be as
good as that of Makita for drills and Bosch for jigsaws. That's an
opinion.

Initially Kress sold in Wickes as Kress.

So why isn't it any longer?

BMJ Power went belly up because of the sheds. Shame because they had High
St outlets and good service - Kress and B&D service agents. All Kress and
B&Ds went to them, among others.

In the meantime Wickes took hold of Kress products in the UK under their
name. Who cares what name it has? I don't. I know what it is under the
badge.

On 2007-07-02 13:39:36 +0100, Tony Bryer said:

On Mon, 2 Jul 2007 07:55:59 +0100 Andy Hall wrote :
This points either to not having the resources to develop their brand
in the UK market, or more likely that there is an agreement with
Wickes that Kress will not sell their branded tools in the UK. This
may or may not have some volume commitments.

I'm sure that is the arrangement. But if Wickes can shift the volume
why should they want to do otherwise?

The problem with selling through resellers/OEMs, especially on an
exclusive basis, is that the reseller dictates the level of business
and probably the terms.

What happens if the manufacturer decides that he needs a higher rate of
growth than the reseller is willing to sign up to do?


They presumably deliver full
pallets to one distribution depot, liaise with one product manager at
Wickes HO and invoice Wickes once a week or month. In short, huge
swathes of admin and marketing expenses are transferred to Wickes.
Meanwhile Makita et al have to run dealer support, advertising
programs, POS production and a whole load of other stuff to keep their
tools on the shelves of hundreds of independent outlets, and this is
part of what you're paying for.

Yes of course. The problem with it, and I think it's a big problem,
is that all eggs go into one basket. If the single Big Thing fails,
then there is nothing. Results never meet expectations.




If Wickes suddenly decided that they wanted to sell steel beam software
(unlikely since they don't sell steel beams g) and offered me a
exclusive OEM deal on SuperBeam with a guaranteed (say) 50 units a
week, I could make more than I do now, they could make 100% gross
profit whilst selling it for less than we do. But I'm not expecting the
phone to ring!

Probably not.

Sales through channels are something I've been involved in a lot. A
genuine OEM deal (i.e. a different product, not a badged one) can be
interesting as long as it increases reachability. Labelled products
and identical own name products tend not to work because either the
Labelee doesn't sell anything or brings down the market price of the
branded product. Moreover, they tend to be product shifters and don't
pursue the maintenance business. Big chunk of margin lost right there.

Exclusive deals are the worst of all because what does the manufacturer
do if commitments aren't met? He has a contract and may have wording
to make it non exclusive. He still has to (re) build his market
position.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 12:09:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

I fully agree with you. He slags a quality maker because it allows its
product to be rebadged

No I haven't, I've simply highlighted that they have limitations and are
attempting to compete in the mass market with a me-too product range.
For me, that is a cause for concern. If I were buying products to have
a one year lifetime and throw them away, I wouldn't care. However, I
don't, but rather buy for a much longer period. I would rather buy a good
quality item once than three mediocre ones lasting for maybe the same
time. For that reason, I want to be convinced about long term viability of
the supplier.

I just bought a B&D drill with the intention of it lasting ten minutes..
I really only wanted the battery but its cheaper with the drill and charger.
B&D batteries fits DeWalt stuff once you hack off the plastic lugs added to
stop them fitting and are a lot cheaper and appear to be identical inside
the plastic box. As it happens the drill works quite well so I might keep it
to drill pilot holes and as somewhere to store the spare battery.

On 2007-07-02 12:47:46 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-02 12:09:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

I fully agree with you. He slags a quality maker because it allows its
product to be rebadged

No I haven't,

You have.

I already explained to you that I haven't

OTOH, if they were acquired by a substantive company, moved their
product up market and added some innovative products, it would be a
very different matter. I would much prefer to purchase a product
manufactured in Europe.

Like Kress/Wickes?

I also explained to you why I wouldn't purchase from that company.



However, there aren't any quality broad range products left with the
exception of Festool and Metabo.

There is Kress.

There is also Sparky. I would be more likely to buy that if I were
buying short term tools.


Cable Porter (Norm Abe'?) in the USA redbage the same Kress SDS
drills that Wickes use and other products too.

PC is making little themselves these days.



- and this high service, quality family business throws a spanner in
the works of his warped views.

I haven't said that Kress isn't providing good service. What Wickes
is offering for their private labeled version may be something else.

The same service agent - common sense would say that.

It would, but is it?



Moreover, I have not said that either product is bad, but from looking
at, picking up and operating several, I do not find the quality level
to be as good as that of Makita for drills and Bosch for jigsaws.
That's an opinion.

Initially Kress sold in Wickes as Kress.

So why isn't it any longer?

BMJ Power went belly up because of the sheds. Shame because they had
High St outlets and good service - Kress and B&D service agents. All
Kress and B&Ds went to them, among others.

All of which suggests that this isn't tenable at the price point.




In the meantime Wickes took hold of Kress products in the UK under
their name. Who cares what name it has? I don't. I know what it is
under the badge.

Who is taking responsibility for it? Where is the UK service? Where
are the spares?

On 2007-07-02 12:59:28 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 12:09:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

I fully agree with you. He slags a quality maker because it allows its
product to be rebadged

No I haven't, I've simply highlighted that they have limitations and are
attempting to compete in the mass market with a me-too product range.
For me, that is a cause for concern. If I were buying products to have
a one year lifetime and throw them away, I wouldn't care. However, I
don't, but rather buy for a much longer period. I would rather buy a good
quality item once than three mediocre ones lasting for maybe the same
time. For that reason, I want to be convinced about long term viability of
the supplier.

I just bought a B&D drill with the intention of it lasting ten minutes..
I really only wanted the battery but its cheaper with the drill and charger.
B&D batteries fits DeWalt stuff once you hack off the plastic lugs added to
stop them fitting and are a lot cheaper and appear to be identical inside
the plastic box. As it happens the drill works quite well so I might keep it
to drill pilot holes and as somewhere to store the spare battery.

Nothing wrong with that. However, it may not be the same grade of battery

On Mon, 2 Jul 2007 07:55:59 +0100 Andy Hall wrote :
This points either to not having the resources to develop their brand
in the UK market, or more likely that there is an agreement with
Wickes that Kress will not sell their branded tools in the UK. This
may or may not have some volume commitments.

I'm sure that is the arrangement. But if Wickes can shift the volume
why should they want to do otherwise? They presumably deliver full
pallets to one distribution depot, liaise with one product manager at
Wickes HO and invoice Wickes once a week or month. In short, huge
swathes of admin and marketing expenses are transferred to Wickes.
Meanwhile Makita et al have to run dealer support, advertising
programs, POS production and a whole load of other stuff to keep their
tools on the shelves of hundreds of independent outlets, and this is
part of what you're paying for.

If Wickes suddenly decided that they wanted to sell steel beam software
(unlikely since they don't sell steel beams g) and offered me a
exclusive OEM deal on SuperBeam with a guaranteed (say) 50 units a
week, I could make more than I do now, they could make 100% gross
profit whilst selling it for less than we do. But I'm not expecting the
phone to ring!

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

A cheap jigsaw will cut laminate flooring, but not a worktop.

Assuming that one were to lay laminate flooring in the first place.

Now that's just being a snob. I don't like laminate, but I don't feel
the need to snipe every time it's mentioned.


A
cheap jigsaw won't even cut a reasonable line on thin material. As
to using a jigsaw to cut a worktop, the suggestion is ridiculous, for
any jigsaw unless you are talking about the hole for a sink.

Well, of course the sink


A cheap drill will do much the same as an expensive one providing you
don't intend using it all day and dropping it off scaffolding. Both
strategies are equally valid and the market structured accordingly.

Level of utilisation is only one factor. Others are weight,
ergnonomics, precision of control, accuracy and servicability.

None of which the average user is the least bit interested in for the
odd few tasks. If he uses it every day, that's another matter


The idea that anyone on here has an intimate knowledge of what Makita
or Kress are thinking is faintly ridiculous.

Other than the management of the companies concerned, that is obviously
true. However, market reports and financial data are in the public
domain. Marketing strategies for distributed products are common
across virtually all industries.

Part of marketing is figuring out what the moves of your competitors are
likely to be before they make them and that is done usually without
intimate knowledge.

Given all of that, it is not very difficult to work out a range of
possible scenarios for business practices and that is what has been
described.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 12:47:46 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 12:09:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

I fully agree with you. He slags a quality maker because it allows its
product to be rebadged

No I haven't,

You have.

I already explained to you that I haven't

OTOH, if they were acquired by a substantive company, moved their
product up market and added some innovative products, it would be a very
different matter. I would much prefer to purchase a product
manufactured in Europe.

Like Kress/Wickes?

I also explained to you why I wouldn't purchase from that company.



However, there aren't any quality broad range products left with the
exception of Festool and Metabo.

There is Kress.

There is also Sparky. I would be more likely to buy that if I were buying
short term tools.


Cable Porter (Norm Abe'?) in the USA redbage the same Kress SDS drills
that Wickes use and other products too.

PC is making little themselves these days.



- and this high service, quality family business throws a spanner in
the works of his warped views.

I haven't said that Kress isn't providing good service. What Wickes
is offering for their private labeled version may be something else.

The same service agent - common sense would say that.

It would, but is it?



Moreover, I have not said that either product is bad, but from looking
at, picking up and operating several, I do not find the quality level to
be as good as that of Makita for drills and Bosch for jigsaws. That's
an opinion.

Initially Kress sold in Wickes as Kress.

So why isn't it any longer?

BMJ Power went belly up because of the sheds. Shame because they had
High St outlets and good service - Kress and B&D service agents. All
Kress and B&Ds went to them, among others.

All of which suggests that this isn't tenable at the price point.

In the meantime Wickes took hold of Kress products in the UK under their
name. Who cares what name it has? I don't. I know what it is under the
badge.

Who is taking responsibility for it? Where is the UK service? Where are
the spares?

Go to any Wickes branch and they deal with it, sending it to the repair
depot.

On 2007-07-02 13:44:05 +0100, Stuart Noble
said:


A cheap jigsaw will cut laminate flooring, but not a worktop.

Assuming that one were to lay laminate flooring in the first place.

Now that's just being a snob. I don't like laminate, but I don't feel
the need to snipe every time it's mentioned.

No it isn't being a snob. I think that laminate looks and sounds
awful. There are much better alternatives and they are available to
anybody to buy. There isn't any exclusivity.



A
cheap jigsaw won't even cut a reasonable line on thin material. As
to using a jigsaw to cut a worktop, the suggestion is ridiculous, for
any jigsaw unless you are talking about the hole for a sink.

Well, of course the sink

Glad we're clear on that.




A cheap drill will do much the same as an expensive one providing you
don't intend using it all day and dropping it off scaffolding. Both
strategies are equally valid and the market structured accordingly.

Level of utilisation is only one factor. Others are weight,
ergnonomics, precision of control, accuracy and servicability.

None of which the average user is the least bit interested in for the
odd few tasks. If he uses it every day, that's another matter

Therein is the fundamental mistake that people make. Who is an average user?

If use is very occasional. I might just about concede the weight issue
provided that the job being done does not require accuracy. I might
even concede the point about servicability provided that the user
understands that some products come with it and some without service.

However, weight and ergonomics certainly influence accuracy and for a
job taking several hours will influence productivity as well. If I
can complete a job in one day because the tool is easy to use and
accurate, as opposed to taking two days because the weight has caused
me to get tired sooner and the job isn't up to standard then little has
been saved. I might as well have bought the better product and saved
the time and money that is implied by it.

If you say that none of the listed things matter to this so-called
"average user", then you are also saying that he doesn't care about the
standard of the outcome. I don't accept that association.
DIY is not just about price, it is also about quality of outcome.

The jig saw example is the classic example of tool quality/cost/outcome
and the SDS drill is the classic example of a cheap drill being too
heavy and tiring the user.

On 2007-07-02 13:53:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

Who is taking responsibility for it? Where is the UK service? Where
are the spares?

Go to any Wickes branch and they deal with it, sending it to the repair depot.

and where do I buy the spare parts? I prefer to do my own repairs
in most cases.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-02 13:53:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Who is taking responsibility for it? Where is the UK service? Where
are the spares?

Go to any Wickes branch and they deal with it, sending it to the repair
depot.

and where do I buy the spare parts? I prefer to do my own repairs in
most cases.

Give them a call.

On 2007-07-02 14:28:28 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-02 13:53:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

Who is taking responsibility for it? Where is the UK service? Where
are the spares?

Go to any Wickes branch and they deal with it, sending it to the repair depot.

and where do I buy the spare parts? I prefer to do my own repairs in
most cases.

Give them a call.

Who? Wickes?

In article , Andy Hall wrote:

and where do I buy the spare parts? I prefer to do my own repairs
in most cases.


http://spareparts.kress-elektrik.de/en/index.php

Which looks to be quite impressive actually - do the other power tool
companies offer this?

No prices though - apparantly they get in touch...

Never used it but it looks impressive

Darren

On 2007-07-02 14:51:00 +0100, (dmc) said:

In article , Andy Hall wrote:

and where do I buy the spare parts? I prefer to do my own repairs
in most cases.


http://spareparts.kress-elektrik.de/en/index.php

Which looks to be quite impressive actually - do the other power tool
companies offer this?

Yes they do, in various ways. DeWalt has a very similar site, for example.

Products such as Makita, Bosch, Festool, Metabo come with an exploded
diagram with all part numbers listed. Then it's simply a case of
calling a UK number and ordering. For example, I needed a Metabo
part recently (carrier for the dust bag). I called them at around
1700 one afternoon expecting that if there was anyone there it would
take several days. I had the part at 0900 the following morning.
That is what service is about.



No prices though - apparantly they get in touch...

Never used it but it looks impressive

Darren

Do they supply in the UK? Shipping costs if it's from Germany? Are
we sure that the parts are the same for the Wickes and Kress versions?

In article , Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-02 14:51:00 +0100, (dmc) said:

Products such as Makita, Bosch, Festool, Metabo come with an exploded
diagram with all part numbers listed. Then it's simply a case of
calling a UK number and ordering. For example, I needed a Metabo
part recently (carrier for the dust bag). I called them at around
1700 one afternoon expecting that if there was anyone there it would
take several days. I had the part at 0900 the following morning.
That is what service is about.

Impressive. My only experience of Bosch parts supply was quite the opposite.

First it was difficult to get them to sell me the part (only a service
centre part etc etc) and then it took several weeks to get it. Quite a
few years ago I admit so it may well have changed.

Do they supply in the UK? Shipping costs if it's from Germany? Are
we sure that the parts are the same for the Wickes and Kress versions?

They claim to supply the UK yes, and you can select Kress/Wickes as the
brand so I assume so. I don't know for sure.

As I say, never tried it though - the only Kress/Wickes drill I have is
many years old now and I suspect wouldn't be worth repairing when it dies.

Darren

:Jerry: wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 17:41:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:
It is a Kress and more reliable than the rest - boy are you dumb!
Data?
Do a Goggle on this group and the compliments on the Wickes/Kress
SDS drill on here are many.

LOL, what does that prove?!...

Especially given 9/10ths of them are from dribble...

--
Cheers,

John.

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:Jerry: wrote:

For occasional use the average DIY drill is fine.
Not logical. Amount of usage is totally different to performance
and usability.



That is total bollkocks, more straw Andy?...

It makes perfect sense to me. If there is a minimum quality standard
that must be met, then that dictates the tool you buy. The fact that you
may only use it every three months does not change that.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:

do so. If a tool lasts over 3 years they delighted, as in that time it
has probably bounced 150 times.

Are you really that careless with your tools? No wonder you promote
cheap above all other considerations.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

:Jerry: wrote:

Hmm, that's probably because you've had him neutered (think about
it...), if only one could have all the Drivels of the world neutered.

No need, the contraceptive personality will prevent any further procreation.

--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Stuart Noble wrote:

Level of utilisation is only one factor. Others are weight,
ergnonomics, precision of control, accuracy and servicability.

None of which the average user is the least bit interested in for the
odd few tasks. If he uses it every day, that's another matter

Given a couple of hours chasing a wall with a 6kg budget SDS with
rotation stop, but no rotation lock, and no speed controller, I have
noted the "average user" is very receptive to the idea of a machine that
actually does the job properly and is not so frustrating/hard work to use.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/