On 2007-07-01 12:40:30 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-01 00:46:46 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Kress survive because they are quality products.

That alone doesn't do it. Their better end range is better than Ryobi
for example, but not outstanding and not up to the level of the major
manufacturers. There is nothing innovative.

You know little of power tools.

That's a little odd coming from someone who thought that Sparky was a
German manufacturer with production in Romania, when it is a Bulgarian
company; and who thought that Kress was innovative with their angle
chuck.

On 2007-07-01 12:45:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:
The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again as
Wickes sold enough of their stock.

Good grief.


Any company that believes that enough of their product is being sold is
not long for this world.

On 2007-07-01 12:42:22 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

snip

Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that effect?

Talking to Wickes managers.

A reliable source of information, then.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:31:42 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 10:32:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:



Even a straw man argument can be clearly explained, it doesn't
change
the basic merit of the argument used!

Possibly not. I think that there is plenty of merit or I wouldn't
have made the point.


Obviously, otherwise you would be trolling,

I'm not trolling at all. In that sense, the boot is on the other foot
for the suggestion that the perfectly well presented discussion points are
straw man. They are not.


but it still doesn't
change the fact

Your point is an opinion, like mine. Neither are presented as fact.


that much of your arguments fail into the straw man
castigatory.

Nope.

It isn't an issue of snobbery, but of making correct business
decisions by manufacturer and customer.

Yes, and allowing a chain store to market the product as unbranded is
not always bad,

It wouldn't have been but for the following two points:

- There are large numbers of Chinese generic tools on the market that each
look almost the same apart from a few tweaks here and there. As a
result, the mass market has become desensitised and the unbranded --
branded strategy is no longer of much use

- Kress has nothing really innovative to offer and so it would be
difficult for any selling points to be transfered and recognised in going
from unbranded to branded.

Kress is a quality product in the Makita quality range, or better. I rate
their SDS drill as the best in price/performance. Anyone wating an SDS from
the £90 to £150 range then the Wickes/Kress is by far the best buy. Saying
that S/fix are ioffering a Ryobi for £50.

On 2007-07-01 13:27:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Kress is a quality product in the Makita quality range, or better.

It's in about the Ryobi range. Not bad but not remarkable either.


Anyone wating an SDS from
the £90 to £150 range then the Wickes/Kress is by far the best buy.

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.




Saying
that S/fix are ioffering a Ryobi for £50.

... and?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 13:27:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Kress is a quality product in the Makita quality range, or better.

It's in about the Ryobi range.

No. Once again "Kress is a quality product in the Makita quality range, or
better." Made in Germany and German company.

Anyone wating an SDS from
the £90 to £150 range then the Wickes/Kress is by far the best buy.

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.

No. Kress/Wickes.

Saying
that S/fix are ioffering a Ryobi for £50.

.. and?

A good deal as it is usually around £90 and being a Ryobi is equiv to a
Makita of around £110

On 2007-07-01 13:39:10 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

A good deal as it is usually around £90 and being a Ryobi is equiv to a
Makita of around £110

The fair market price for a Techtronics Ryobi drill is in the £50 area.

It is nowhere close in quality to Makita.

Have you actually picked up either of these products and studied them?

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-01 13:27:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:

Kress is a quality product in the Makita quality range, or better.

It's in about the Ryobi range. Not bad but not remarkable either.


Anyone wating an SDS from
the £90 to £150 range then the Wickes/Kress is by far the best buy.

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.

The Wickes/Kress SDS is an excellent piece of kit. I've had one for over a
year and given it loads of stick. I believe it has the Johnson motor also
used by DeWalt.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In article ews.net,
:Jerry: wrote:

Indeed the parts might be inter-changeable but that doesn't mean that
the original manufacturing spec' is the same, just that the same
dimensions are used due to using the same basic tooling.

Aye, quite possibly. I did actually ask the guy this and he claimed that
wasn't the case but he may have been talking rubbish I guess (or more
likely, didn't actually know). I'd still rate the Wickes SDS drill though -
it's outlasted a Dewalt that was more expensive and the Wickes one has
certainly had a much harder life

As I say, I've actually seen Kress branded powertools in my local wickes
recently but that may have been a one off.

Darren

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that
effect?

Talking to Wickes managers.


Ah, must be true then. I mean, I'm sure a Wickes manager would be first
to tell customers how the tools sold in his store were lower spec than
the Kress ones (even assuming he would actually know).

Darren

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-01 13:27:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Kress is a quality product in the Makita quality range, or better.

It's in about the Ryobi range. Not bad but not remarkable either.


Anyone wating an SDS from
the £90 to £150 range then the Wickes/Kress is by far the best buy.

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.

The Makita 780W HR2450X is pretty hard to beat in this prince range as
well (at about £110).

I can't see any attraction in a shop own brand at that sort of price point.


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.

No. Kress/Wickes.

How would you know? You never use these tools or do anything with them
it seems.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:31:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:

snip most off you 'straw man' ********

Which are all relative to what the tool will be asked to do, who
will
be using it, how and were it will be used - someone who is up
scaffolding doesn't want a limited battery life on a coreless
drill,
someone who is using the same drill for 8 hrs a day will want
something with good ergonomics and serviceability, someone drilling
holes that have to line up with a mating part will want accuracy,
OTOH
someone doing a bit of DIY will probably only want functionality

Wrong assumption. "Doing a bit of DIY" does not mean that
ergonomics, servicability, accuracy and usability fall by the
wayside. This is the same incorrect logic that because something
is for DIY it should be cheap.


No you are wrong, do you really think that someone wanting to put up
the odd shelf or picture is going to buy a DeWalt (or similar) when
they know that they will be using the drill a couple of hours a
month - you really are up your own arse on this, they just want
something that will drill a reasonable accurate hole.

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:57:48 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.

No. Kress/Wickes.

How would you know? You never use these tools or do anything with them
it seems.

He could probably recommend a hacksaw...

--
Frank Erskine

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:45:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:
The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again as
Wickes sold enough of their stock.

Good grief.


Any company that believes that enough of their product is being sold
is not long for this world.


What didn't you understand about "in the UK", they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now
consider Wickes their UK agent.

I'm sure that Snap-on could sell even tools more if they approached
someone like Halfords (in the UK) but they are still very successful
company with their self limiting sales approach!

The Medway Handyman wrote:

The Wickes/Kress SDS is an excellent piece of kit. I've had one for over a
year and given it loads of stick. I believe it has the Johnson motor also
used by DeWalt.

No one is saying that there is anything wrong with the product in this
case. (I don't know if wickes do more than one version of the 2kg class
machine, but I do note that the one I had a look at in Wickes had a
rotation lock, but did not seem to allow you to chose the angle of
rotation that the bit locked in - this would make it far less useful to me).

However look at what is is competing with... for the same money you
could have the Makita with its excellent speed controller, multiple
position rotation lock, 780W motor and 2.7 Joule impact energy, or you
could have the Hitachi with 800W motor and 3.2J impact energy. Both of
which are backed by a nationwide spares and service operation that means
if I lose the side handle and want another one, getting a replacement is
easy.

If you need a tool in a hurry and wickes is to hand, then fine buy one -
it will probably do most jobs just fine and last well. If one is taking
the time to pick and chose, then I can't see the attraction of paying
the same money for a shop branded (and more importantly - supported)
tool with a lower specification.


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

dmc wrote:

As I say, I've actually seen Kress branded powertools in my local wickes
recently but that may have been a one off.

It would make sense if they started to promote the OEM brand rather than
badging them if they are to carry on selling in the same price range as
the other big brands.

BTW, a couple of years back when dribble was spouting on about Kress, I
emailed them to ask about service arrangements in the uk. The response I
got is as follows (my obfuscation of email addies):

"
Dear Sir,

thank you for contacting us yesterday asking for any dealer or service
centre in UK. First please note that we do not have any dealer at
present in UK. Purchase of new tools is handled directly from our
headoffice, here in Bisingen-Germany.
However, if you are in need of repair, service or spare parts, we would
appreciate if you contact one of the hereunder stated companies for
further action:

N & J Tools
Westcross Centre
15, Shield Drive
TW8 9EX Brentford
Phone: +44 208 560 0885
Fax: +44 208 847 0790
E-Mail: njtoolsbrentforedPUT_AT_SIGN_HEREbtopenworld.com
Contact person: Nigel Stevens

JG POWER
5, Green Bank
Lofthouse Wakefield
WF3 3QN
Tel.: +44 77 4784 5758
E-Mail: JOHNPUT_AT_SIGN_HEREjgpower.fsnet.co.uk
contact person: John Greenhill

If you need any further information, please let us know.

Best regards,

KRESS-elektrik
Spomenka Stroh
Tel.: +49 / 7476 / 87-312
Fax: +49 / 7476 / 87-342
E-Mail: sstrohPUT_AT_SIGN_HEREkress-elektrik.de
(10.08.04)
"

I don't know if they have made any more service arrangements since then,
but they would have some way to go to match the levels of the more well
known brands.


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

The Wickes/Kress SDS is an excellent piece of kit. I've had one for
over a year and given it loads of stick. I believe it has the
Johnson motor also used by DeWalt.

No one is saying that there is anything wrong with the product in this
case. (I don't know if wickes do more than one version of the 2kg
class machine, but I do note that the one I had a look at in Wickes
had a rotation lock, but did not seem to allow you to chose the angle
of rotation that the bit locked in - this would make it far less useful
to me).

The one I have does - I agree an essential feature.

However look at what is is competing with... for the same money you
could have the Makita with its excellent speed controller, multiple
position rotation lock, 780W motor and 2.7 Joule impact energy, or you
could have the Hitachi with 800W motor and 3.2J impact energy. Both of
which are backed by a nationwide spares and service operation that
means if I lose the side handle and want another one, getting a
replacement
is easy.

When I bought mine it was around £80 compared to the big brands at £125.
The Wickes is now £100 & the Makita is on promo at £115, so I might well
make a different decision now, but I can't fault the Wickes machine to be
fair.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message ...
snip

When I bought mine it was around £80 compared to the big brands at
£125. The Wickes is now £100 & the Makita is on promo at £115, so I
might well make a different decision now, but I can't fault the
Wickes machine to be fair.


The above suggests that Makita are worried then, which means that they
must be somewhat comparable is quality...

"dmc" wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that
effect?

Talking to Wickes managers.


Ah, must be true then.

Exactly.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-01 13:27:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Kress is a quality product in the Makita quality range, or better.

It's in about the Ryobi range. Not bad but not remarkable either.

Anyone wating an SDS from
the £90 to £150 range then the Wickes/Kress is by far the best buy.

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.

The Makita, approx 700w, SDS is actually cheaper than the Ryobi. in s/fix.

The Makita 780W HR2450X is pretty hard to beat in this prince range as
well (at about £110).

I can't see any attraction in a shop own brand at that sort of price
point.

It is a Kress and more reliable than the rest - boy are you dumb!

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.

No. Kress/Wickes.

How would you know?

Because I am not from Essex.

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 14:57:48 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.

No. Kress/Wickes.

How would you know? You never use these tools or do anything with them
it seems.

He could probably recommend a hacksaw...

Reciprocating one - Ryobi.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 13:39:10 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

A good deal as it is usually around £90 and being a Ryobi is equiv to a
Makita of around £110

The fair market price for a Techtronics Ryobi drill is in the £50 area.

It is nowhere close in quality to Makita.

You have never used one. The 700w Makita is actually cheaper than the 700w
Ryobi in s/fix. Ryobi has a two yr guarantee to 1 yr. Ryobi make equiv to
Makita. Kress are better than Makita

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-01 13:27:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:

Kress is a quality product in the Makita quality range, or better.

It's in about the Ryobi range. Not bad but not remarkable either.


Anyone wating an SDS from
the £90 to £150 range then the Wickes/Kress is by far the best buy.

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.

The Wickes/Kress SDS is an excellent piece of kit. I've had one for over
a year and given it loads of stick. I believe it has the Johnson motor
also used by DeWalt.

The Kress drills bounce as well.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
John Rumm wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

The Wickes/Kress SDS is an excellent piece of kit. I've had one for
over a year and given it loads of stick. I believe it has the
Johnson motor also used by DeWalt.

No one is saying that there is anything wrong with the product in this
case. (I don't know if wickes do more than one version of the 2kg
class machine,

Three of them

but I do note that the one I had a look at in Wickes
had a rotation lock, but did not seem to allow you to chose the angle
of rotation that the bit locked in - this would make it far less useful
to me).

The one I have does - I agree an essential feature.

However look at what is is competing with... for the same money you
could have the Makita with its excellent speed controller, multiple
position rotation lock, 780W motor and 2.7 Joule impact energy, or you
could have the Hitachi with 800W motor and 3.2J impact energy. Both of
which are backed by a nationwide spares and service operation that
means if I lose the side handle and want another one, getting a
replacement
is easy.

When I bought mine it was around £80 compared to the big brands at £125.
The Wickes is now £100 & the Makita is on promo at £115, so I might well
make a different decision now, but I can't fault the Wickes machine to be
fair.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
snip

When I bought mine it was around £80 compared to the big brands at £125.
The Wickes is now £100 & the Makita is on promo at £115, so I might well
make a different decision now, but I can't fault the Wickes machine to be
fair.

The above suggests that Makita are worried then, which means that they
must be somewhat comparable is quality...

The Kress is higher in quality.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

BTW, a couple of years back when dribble was spouting on about Kress, I
emailed them to ask about service arrangements in the uk. The response I
got is as follows (my obfuscation of email addies):

[snip]

I don't know if they have made any more service arrangements since then,
but they would have some way to go to match the levels of the more well
known brands.

Indeed. Given the prices are comparable now I'm not sure I'd go for one
again - I'd probably go for a known brand. Back when we bought the thing
it was considerably cheaper than the alternatives (this was ages before
Argos etc sold them. I don't think B&Q did either).

BMJ power was the place I took it IIRC - they went bust shortly after :-(

Darren

The Medway Handyman wrote:

When I bought mine it was around £80 compared to the big brands at £125.

At £80 it would make sense. The Makita can usually be had for £109 (or
£119 with the extra chuck), with the Hitachi at £102.

The Wickes is now £100 & the Makita is on promo at £115, so I might well
make a different decision now, but I can't fault the Wickes machine to be
fair.

If it has the multi position lock, then it sounds fine.

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:

The Makita, approx 700w, SDS is actually cheaper than the Ryobi. in s/fix.

Perhaps your using a different web site to the rest of us. Product codes
and prices?

(and take care to compare three function machines)


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

:Jerry: wrote:

No you are wrong, do you really think that someone wanting to put up
the odd shelf or picture is going to buy a DeWalt (or similar) when
they know that they will be using the drill a couple of hours a
month - you really are up your own arse on this, they just want
something that will drill a reasonable accurate hole.

You seem to be falling into the trap of assuming that all DIY equates to
low usage with low expectations. For some users that may well be true,
but not all.

Even if you do anticipate low usage, it depends on the tool in question.
For an ordinary percussion drill then they will all give you a hole in
most materials, and there will not be much to choose between them. So
cheaper will probably win for that category of user.

If you are buying a router however, the quality of the tool makes a
difference to the finish you can achieve, so there is no point in buying
the cheaper one if the result is not acceptable.

If you are assembling flat pack furniture and you want a mains drill
that can stick screws in as well as cope with general drilling tasks
then you would find the budget drills will fail rapidly. (quickest I saw
was a NuTool hammer drill that lasted about six mins used as a
screwdriver - after that there was smoke pouring out of it!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

dmc wrote:

Indeed. Given the prices are comparable now I'm not sure I'd go for one
again - I'd probably go for a known brand. Back when we bought the thing
it was considerably cheaper than the alternatives (this was ages before
Argos etc sold them. I don't think B&Q did either).

my thoughts exactly.

BMJ power was the place I took it IIRC - they went bust shortly after :-(

Yup, I seem to recall ordering some B&D spares from them in the past.
They went tits up not long after.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

:Jerry: wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 12:45:42 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:
The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again as
Wickes sold enough of their stock.
Good grief.


Any company that believes that enough of their product is being sold
is not long for this world.


What didn't you understand about "in the UK", they could be selling
100,000,000 units p.a. in another country, also they might now
consider Wickes their UK agent.

I'm sure that Snap-on could sell even tools more if they approached
someone like Halfords (in the UK) but they are still very successful
company with their self limiting sales approach!

Snap-on know their market, and sell at a premium price to trade
customers. That does not seem to be the case with Kress in this country
as yet. I think it would make more sense if they did get someone like
Wickes to sell under the Kress label so as to establish some reputation
over here. However they would need to get some trade focussed
distributors on board as well and pretty sharpish if they are not going
to have people associate the name with kit aimed at the home DIY market
only.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:Jerry: wrote:

No you are wrong, do you really think that someone wanting to put
up the odd shelf or picture is going to buy a DeWalt (or similar)
when they know that they will be using the drill a couple of hours
a month - you really are up your own arse on this, they just want
something that will drill a reasonable accurate hole.

You seem to be falling into the trap of assuming that all DIY
equates to low usage with low expectations. For some users that may
well be true, but not all.

There are probably more people out there who know that they have no
need to buy something like a DeWalt drill (professional products in
other words), and will happily ignore many of the considerations that
Andy seems to think need to be considered before buying a product,
those who need such pro products will of course consider *all* aspect
of owning a tool before investing in both make and tool.


Even if you do anticipate low usage, it depends on the tool in
question. For an ordinary percussion drill then they will all give
you a hole in most materials, and there will not be much to choose
between them. So cheaper will probably win for that category of
user.

If you are buying a router however, the quality of the tool makes a
difference to the finish you can achieve, so there is no point in
buying the cheaper one if the result is not acceptable.

But again that depends on why they are buying / needing a router, even
the cheapest will do certain tasks even if it won't give a fine,
accurate finish to highly visible work - for example many will be
buying a router to join their kitchen work tops or fit concealed
hinges to doors etc, not everyone is buying it having taken up
furniture making.


If you are assembling flat pack furniture and you want a mains drill
that can stick screws in as well as cope with general drilling tasks
then you would find the budget drills will fail rapidly. (quickest I
saw was a NuTool hammer drill that lasted about six mins used as a
screwdriver - after that there was smoke pouring out of it!)


Well yes, if one miss uses a tool anyone can kill it, pro or bodger,
quality tool or bargain basement...!

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
dmc wrote:
snip
BMJ power was the place I took it IIRC - they went bust shortly
after :-(

Yup, I seem to recall ordering some B&D spares from them in the
past. They went tits up not long after.


So it was all your fault!... :~)

On 2007-07-01 17:46:43 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-07-01 13:39:10 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

A good deal as it is usually around £90 and being a Ryobi is equiv to a
Makita of around £110

The fair market price for a Techtronics Ryobi drill is in the £50 area.

It is nowhere close in quality to Makita.

You have never used one.

Incorrect.

The 700w Makita is actually cheaper than the 700w Ryobi in s/fix.

and....


Ryobi has a two yr guarantee to 1 yr.

and....


Ryobi make equiv to Makita.

Wrong


Kress are better than Makita

Also wrong

On 2007-07-01 16:16:09 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

When I bought mine it was around £80 compared to the big brands at £125.
The Wickes is now £100 & the Makita is on promo at £115, so I might well
make a different decision now, but I can't fault the Wickes machine to be
fair.

Exactly.

50%+ would be interesting. 15% isn't.

On 2007-07-01 16:29:42 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message ...
snip

When I bought mine it was around £80 compared to the big brands at
£125. The Wickes is now £100 & the Makita is on promo at £115, so I
might well make a different decision now, but I can't fault the
Wickes machine to be fair.


The above suggests that Makita are worried then, which means that they
must be somewhat comparable is quality...

It suggests that they are doing a promo on a particular product.
Nothing more than that.

If there was a concern, all of the prices would have been reduced.

On 2007-07-01 14:56:36 +0100, John Rumm said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-07-01 13:27:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Kress is a quality product in the Makita quality range, or better.

It's in about the Ryobi range. Not bad but not remarkable either.


Anyone wating an SDS from
the £90 to £150 range then the Wickes/Kress is by far the best buy.

Bosch is the best buy in this range, along with DeWalt.

The Makita 780W HR2450X is pretty hard to beat in this prince range as
well (at about £110).

I can't see any attraction in a shop own brand at that sort of price point.

Exactly. There really isn't.

On 2007-07-01 17:41:35 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

It is a Kress and more reliable than the rest - boy are you dumb!

Data?