"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 13:14:01 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 11:25:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 10:18:54 +0100, " said:


It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you
finally
tried an impact driver.

I know of no cheap budget Impact Drivers.

True. And I will be quite curious to see if they make the same splash
in the diy market when they do.

They already are in the DIY market. Screwfix have a Makita 12v one
for
£139

I would not call £139 in the DIY price range.

Of course it is. DIY is not about price.

Matt, you are mad.

Nope. I am absolutely serious.

Then you are mad.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 19:17:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 13:12:15 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 11:19:22 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:

Wickes have a three ranges: DIY (1 yr guarantee), semi-pro (3 yr) and
full
pro (5 yr). Then the Hitchai range at 1 year. I know of no other pro
tool
with a 5 yr guarantee.

That's because the manufacturers of professional tools don't need to
give a 5 year guarantee in order to sell them, rather suggesting that
these are wannabee products aspiring to a market.

Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product.

In the UK market that is exactly what it is.

Once again..."Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product."

Where can I buy them in the UK with a Kress label?

A label freak! Wickes sell them under their name.

If a maker has faith in their product then they will stand by long
guarantees. Look at 5 yr guarantees in some auto makers now. No low
quality car maker gives 5 year guarantees.

In this case the warranty is from Wickes anyway because it is their
private label brand.

RE-badged using quality products and they stand by the products.

No, Wickes (allegedly) stands by the products.

You got it.

They have a junk end product, a low mid range with three year warranty
and an upper mid range with 5 years.

Yep. They cover the market. Take your choice.

Wickes cover the market for them in the UK.

Yep.

I am sure that Kress would have prefered to use Wickes as a reseller and
establish the Kress brand.

I don't know.

It is amazing that someone defends companies offering poor guarantee
service of 1 year.

The guarantee is somewhat irrelevant

It isn't.

On 2007-06-30 20:35:53 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-06-30 13:20:56 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


wrote in message
ups.com...
Diy tools a
Sold mainly through diy outlets
Have both brands widely recognised by diy'ers and diy outlets own
brands
Tend to be loaded with features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on price than build quality
Prioritise price over durability
Cordless tools tend to have slow chargers, single batteries and less
good cell life

Professional tools a
*differentiated by manufacturers from their diy ranges*
Sold mainly through trade outlets
Concentrate on brands widely recognised by professionals
Have limited features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on build quality than price
Prioritise durability over price
Cordless tools tend to have fast chargers, multiple batteries with
very good cell life

Based on those factors, I'd say the 100 quid Sparky impact driver just
about makes it to the pro side.

The £100 is because it is made in Eastern Europe - rates of exchange
make it cheap. Sparky is a German company.

There has been relatively little variation in the Euro to Sterling
exchange rate. The company is Bulgarian and manufactures there.

It is German and makes some stuff in Romania.

Incorrect. The company began in Bulgaria as Sparky Eltos AD (maker of
small tools) and Sparky AD (manufacturer of agricultural equipment) and
manufactures there. The German aspect is simply a corporate office.




It has German management. and an office in Berlin. They previously
made AEG tools under license before that brand was sold to TTI.

Yep they made top quality AEG stuff

They made licensed product after AEG lost its way and its market share
and finally offloaded the brand with little value left to TTI.



Ryobi OTOH is one of the few companies (possibly the only?) that
chooses to blur the diy/pro distinction

They cleverly aim for both markets with the same products. Confusion
is that they have not been in the Makita, DeWalt range for years, so
image is blurred. The ONE+ range, using the one battery for a whole
range of tools, is clearly aimed at the pro market.

Aimed at but not particularly successful by market share because these
are mid range and not professional tools.

Amazing! Many pros use them.

None that I know.



Feedback from these products is good. They are well priced and good.

They are reasonable for the price charged as a mid range but not a
professional product.

Pro product. Many pros use them.

Milwaukee is TTI's "professional" brand

I'd also say - generally - that 100 quid is about the absolute max
price that the diy will stand.

I would say way over the top for a DIY product - and £139 is clearly
pro. Far, far less than £100 gets suitable DIY tools.

The price point isn't particularly relevant in terms of suitability for
DIY purposes.

It is when far less than £100 get most DIY tools.

You are making the mistake of equating DIY tools with price.

On 2007-06-30 20:39:11 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-06-30 19:17:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product.

In the UK market that is exactly what it is.

Once again..."Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product."

Where can I buy them in the UK with a Kress label?

A label freak! Wickes sell them under their name.

Then it is sold as a Wickes product, not a Kress one.





If a maker has faith in their product then they will stand by long
guarantees. Look at 5 yr guarantees in some auto makers now. No low
quality car maker gives 5 year guarantees.

In this case the warranty is from Wickes anyway because it is their
private label brand.

RE-badged using quality products and they stand by the products.

No, Wickes (allegedly) stands by the products.

You got it.

Wickes is a supermarket operation, not a manufacture and service
organisation for power tools.




They have a junk end product, a low mid range with three year warranty
and an upper mid range with 5 years.

Yep. They cover the market. Take your choice.

Wickes cover the market for them in the UK.

Yep.

I am sure that Kress would have prefered to use Wickes as a reseller
and establish the Kress brand.

I don't know.

Which takes us back to the original point. Kress has no brand position
in the UK.



It is amazing that someone defends companies offering poor guarantee
service of 1 year.

The guarantee is somewhat irrelevant

It isn't.

In terms of a warehouse operation such as Wickes, it is simply one of
the means to put a price differential between two product lines. It
is irrelevant from the user's point of view if he is buying as a
consumer.

On 2007-06-30 20:36:16 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-06-30 13:14:01 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-06-30 11:25:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 10:18:54 +0100, " said:


It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I know of no cheap budget Impact Drivers.

True. And I will be quite curious to see if they make the same splash
in the diy market when they do.

They already are in the DIY market. Screwfix have a Makita 12v one for
£139

I would not call £139 in the DIY price range.

Of course it is. DIY is not about price.

Matt, you are mad.

Nope. I am absolutely serious.

Then you are mad.

Nope. As I said, DIY is not about price. That is but one factor in
a whole range of reasons for execution of DIY projects and the purchase
of the tools and materials to do so.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 19:17:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
said:
snip

Once again..."Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product."

Where can I buy them in the UK with a Kress label?

A label freak! Wickes sell them under their name.

....and might well have them manufactured to their own, or bought in as
a cheaper, spec' product. Whilst I accept that some 'over priced'
tools can sometimes be found under a different label (often owned by
the parent company though) [1] it's unlikely that a cheaper brand will
be able to offer the same quality fort even less as an unbranded
wholesale product - something will have to have given, that will not
be the labour cost of making them, unless the manufacturing is shipped
out to China or the like.

[1] for hand tools, Snap-on and Blue-point are a good example.


If a maker has faith in their product then they will stand by
long guarantees. Look at 5 yr guarantees in some auto makers
now. No low quality car maker gives 5 year guarantees.

In this case the warranty is from Wickes anyway because it is
their private label brand.

RE-badged using quality products and they stand by the products.

No, Wickes (allegedly) stands by the products.

You got it.

Yes he has, unlike yourself (no surprise there). Would you buy a
branded product and the manufactures '#' year warranty scheme or an
unbranded product that happens to be made in the same factory but with
a limited (by comparison) warranty backed up by a retailers customer
service counter, I know I wouldn't unless I considered the tools worth
as 'throw-away'.

snip
It is amazing that someone defends companies offering poor
guarantee service of 1 year.

The guarantee is somewhat irrelevant

It isn't.

It is totally irrelevant, Drivel doesn't know his 'sale of goods'
laws - no surprise there...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


Then you are mad.

I've told you before Drivel, stop talking about yourself all the time!

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

Which takes us back to the original point. Kress has no brand
position in the UK.


I think, to a point, that is irrelevant, there was a time when many of
the high quality non UK brands (in what ever field) had no UK brand /
market position - that alone doesn't mean the product is rubbish.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 20:39:11 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 19:17:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product.

In the UK market that is exactly what it is.

Once again..."Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product."

Where can I buy them in the UK with a Kress label?

A label freak! Wickes sell them under their name.

Then it is sold as a Wickes product, not a Kress one.





If a maker has faith in their product then they will stand by long
guarantees. Look at 5 yr guarantees in some auto makers now. No low
quality car maker gives 5 year guarantees.

In this case the warranty is from Wickes anyway because it is their
private label brand.

RE-badged using quality products and they stand by the products.

No, Wickes (allegedly) stands by the products.

You got it.

Wickes is a supermarket operation, not a manufacture and service
organisation for power tools.

It is a "Kress" product.

It is amazing that someone defends companies offering poor guarantee
service of 1 year.

The guarantee is somewhat irrelevant

It isn't.

In terms of a warehouse operation such as Wickes, it is simply one of the
means to put a price differential between two product lines.

It is a way of shift product as Wickes area national chain. Kress don't
care if the products have their or Wickes name as long as they sell.

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 19:17:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:
snip

Once again..."Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product."

Where can I buy them in the UK with a Kress label?

A label freak! Wickes sell them under their name.

...and might well have them manufactured to their own, or bought in as a
cheaper, spec' product. Whilst I accept that some 'over priced' tools can
sometimes be found under a different label (often owned by the parent
company though) [1] it's unlikely that a cheaper brand will be able to
offer the same quality fort even less as an unbranded wholesale product -
something will have to have given, that will not be the labour cost of
making them, unless the manufacturing is shipped out to China or the like.

[1] for hand tools, Snap-on and Blue-point are a good example.


If a maker has faith in their product then they will stand by long
guarantees. Look at 5 yr guarantees in some auto makers now. No low
quality car maker gives 5 year guarantees.

In this case the warranty is from Wickes anyway because it is their
private label brand.

RE-badged using quality products and they stand by the products.

No, Wickes (allegedly) stands by the products.

You got it.

Yes he has,

You have been taking Matt pills.

snip
It is amazing that someone defends companies offering poor guarantee
service of 1 year.

The guarantee is somewhat irrelevant

It isn't.

It is totally irrelevant,

You have been taking Matt pills.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

Wickes is a supermarket operation, not a manufacture and service
organisation for power tools.

It is a "Kress" product.


Possibly made to Wickes spec', just as a branded Baked Bean company
will also produce (for example) Tesco's own brand, it doesn't mean
they are both the same product.

On 2007-06-30 21:24:33 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

Which takes us back to the original point. Kress has no brand
position in the UK.


I think, to a point, that is irrelevant, there was a time when many of
the high quality non UK brands (in what ever field) had no UK brand /
market position - that alone doesn't mean the product is rubbish.

No it doesn't, but is an indicator that the company may well have
limited resources. They are very small in this part of the market
(low and mid range) with only 300 employees and 700k units per annum.

Contrast this with the major players DeWalt, Makita and Bosch who each
enjoy a 15-18% market share.

Makita produced over 1.2M units *just in the UK* last year mainly for export.

In the part of the market that they are in, and the manufacturing
locations used, I don't see how Kress can have a viable long term
business. Either they will have to move up market or to lower cost
manufacturing.

On 2007-06-30 21:40:00 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...

Wickes is a supermarket operation, not a manufacture and service
organisation for power tools.

It is a "Kress" product.

It is a Wickes product.




It is amazing that someone defends companies offering poor guarantee
service of 1 year.

The guarantee is somewhat irrelevant

It isn't.

In terms of a warehouse operation such as Wickes, it is simply one of
the means to put a price differential between two product lines.

It is a way of shift product as Wickes area national chain. Kress
don't care if the products have their or Wickes name as long as they
sell.

Given their (lack of) market position, that is probably all that they
can hope to achieve.

You really don't understand much about business, do you....

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 21:24:33 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

Which takes us back to the original point. Kress has no brand
position in the UK.


I think, to a point, that is irrelevant, there was a time when many
of
the high quality non UK brands (in what ever field) had no UK brand
/
market position - that alone doesn't mean the product is rubbish.

No it doesn't, but is an indicator that the company may well have
limited resources. They are very small in this part of the market
(low and mid range) with only 300 employees and 700k units per
annum.

Well by that reckoning many companies must be producing crap...


Contrast this with the major players DeWalt, Makita and Bosch who
each enjoy a 15-18% market share.

They didn't always have that...


Makita produced over 1.2M units *just in the UK* last year mainly
for export.

They didn't always do so...


In the part of the market that they are in, and the manufacturing
locations used, I don't see how Kress can have a viable long term
business. Either they will have to move up market or to lower
cost manufacturing.


Your point being what, other than tool / brand snobbery?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

[ in reply to 'Drivel' ]


You really don't understand much about business, do you....


I'm starting to think you don't either!

On 2007-06-30 22:15:34 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 21:24:33 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

Which takes us back to the original point. Kress has no brand
position in the UK.


I think, to a point, that is irrelevant, there was a time when many
of
the high quality non UK brands (in what ever field) had no UK brand
/
market position - that alone doesn't mean the product is rubbish.

No it doesn't, but is an indicator that the company may well have
limited resources. They are very small in this part of the market
(low and mid range) with only 300 employees and 700k units per
annum.

Well by that reckoning many companies must be producing crap...

I didn't say that it was crap, only that this is a very small player in
a very competitive market unable to achieve a brand position.




Contrast this with the major players DeWalt, Makita and Bosch who
each enjoy a 15-18% market share.

They didn't always have that...

Indeed.





Makita produced over 1.2M units *just in the UK* last year mainly
for export.

They didn't always do so...

Indicating that something is being done correctly.




In the part of the market that they are in, and the manufacturing
locations used, I don't see how Kress can have a viable long term
business. Either they will have to move up market or to lower
cost manufacturing.


Your point being what, other than tool / brand snobbery?

It isn't an issue of snobbery, but of sound business principle.

If I were to buy a product at a low end price point, I could take a
view on it and consider that it will be a disposable item after the
warranty runs out in 2 perhaps 3 years. Certainly the retailer won't
be repairing it if there are failures during this time.

I choose not to buy such products, so for me that line of reasoning is
irrelevant.

Instead I buy quality products which I expect to last for a long time
and to give good results and usability. In the unlikely event of a
fault, I will find repairs and spares to be available for many years.

If I buy from a major manufacturer, I can be confident that that will
be the case and that they have the financial resources to deliver on
service. This is worth a price premium in itself.

If I am going to buy a product from a smaller manufacturer, I am going
to look very carefully at their product and business profile and their
business viability. I have done this, for example, with Fein,
Festool and Lamello and satisfied myself on these points.

When I look at Kress, the alarm bells begin to ring for all of the
reasons mentioned above. I am not commenting on whether or not the
make a good product. Clearly they aren't in Festool's league or they
would be competing with innovative rather than me-too products.
OTOH, they don't appear to have the resources of the major players.
Despite comments that spares will be available for ten years, that is
only true as long as the company remains in business. Given the market
sector in which they are trying to operate, which is highly competitive
and with some very large players and that they do not appear to have
any USPs, I begin to have concerns about their viability.

If the pricing was in the throwaway category one could take a view, but
on some items it is not significantly different to something from one
of the major manufacturers.

Given all of that, I don't see that it's interesting to buy their products.

On 2007-06-30 22:17:13 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

[ in reply to 'Drivel' ]


You really don't understand much about business, do you....


I'm starting to think you don't either!

On the contrary.....

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

Wickes is a supermarket operation, not a manufacture and service
organisation for power tools.

It is a "Kress" product.


Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 21:40:00 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Wickes is a supermarket operation, not a manufacture and service
organisation for power tools.

It is a "Kress" product.

It is a Wickes product.

Matt, you mad.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 22:17:13 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

[ in reply to 'Drivel' ]


You really don't understand much about business, do you....


I'm starting to think you don't either!

On the contrary.....

None of you do.

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


Then you are mad.

I've told you before Drivel, stop talking about yourself all the time!

such wit.

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 21:24:33 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

Which takes us back to the original point. Kress has no brand
position in the UK.


I think, to a point, that is irrelevant, there was a time when many of
the high quality non UK brands (in what ever field) had no UK brand /
market position - that alone doesn't mean the product is rubbish.

No it doesn't, but is an indicator that the company may well have limited
resources. They are very small in this part of the market (low and mid
range) with only 300 employees and 700k units per annum.

Well by that reckoning many companies must be producing crap...


Contrast this with the major players DeWalt, Makita and Bosch who each
enjoy a 15-18% market share.

They didn't always have that...


Makita produced over 1.2M units *just in the UK* last year mainly for
export.

They didn't always do so...


In the part of the market that they are in, and the manufacturing
locations used, I don't see how Kress can have a viable long term
business. Either they will have to move up market or to lower cost
manufacturing.


Your point being what, other than tool / brand snobbery?

Kress survive because they are quality products. The high tonque drill/drive
with the angle attachment is the only product in the world like that -
innovation too.

On 2007-07-01 00:46:46 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Kress survive because they are quality products.

That alone doesn't do it. Their better end range is better than Ryobi
for example, but not outstanding and not up to the level of the major
manufacturers. There is nothing innovative.


The high tonque drill/drive with the angle attachment is the only
product in the world like that - innovation too.

No it isn't. Festool originated that one some years ago.

Not only does Festool have the angle attachment, but they have an
eccentric chuck as well so that one can drill/drive close to an edge
(e.g. inside a cupboard) in a straight line. The two chucks can
even be used together.

http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDet...ID=490293&ID=2

http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDet...ID=490294&ID=2

These work with the Fastfix system on their entire product range and
come as standard in most of their drill/driver packages.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 22:15:34 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:

snip

Your point being what, other than tool / brand snobbery?

It isn't an issue of snobbery, but of sound business principle.

Sorry but that is exactly what it is, many of the arguments you are
putting forward are of the straw man type.


If I were to buy a product at a low end price point, I could take a
view on it and consider that it will be a disposable item after the
warranty runs out in 2 perhaps 3 years. Certainly the retailer
won't be repairing it if there are failures during this time.
snip

Equally you could buy a product at a low end price point which will
last a life time of hard use, because of were it's been made, or the
fact that it's a re branded product that would normally had a well
known brand mark in an existing market.

I'm not passing judgment on Kress (or any other manufacturer), just
the straw arguments that you are using, The only judgment that can be
used is how they perform - not what they look like, what they are
called, where they can be bought or what the service arrangements are.

When I look at Kress, the alarm bells begin to ring for all of the
reasons mentioned above. I am not commenting on whether or not
the make a good product. Clearly they aren't in Festool's league
or they would be competing with innovative rather than me-too
products.

Well having worked with certain tools within the Festool range I'm not
overly impressed, not good when each (basic range) unit cost circa 1k
ukp *each* - one should not have bearings failing each year, plastic
clips breaking off in use, hoses connections failing, or indeed hoses
failing in use - true the machines are extensively used but what do
Festool expect when selling to the commercial sector?

OTOH, they don't appear to have the resources of the major players.
Despite comments that spares will be available for ten years, that
is only true as long as the company remains in business. Given the
market
snip

Well your latter point is true for all companies, if DeWalt or Festool
went bust spares would become a problem too.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

snip

Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that
effect?

On 2007-07-01 09:21:38 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 22:15:34 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:

snip

Your point being what, other than tool / brand snobbery?

It isn't an issue of snobbery, but of sound business principle.

Sorry but that is exactly what it is, many of the arguments you are
putting forward are of the straw man type.

Absolutely not. They are clearly explained. Different people may have
different criteria for purchase, but that doesn't alter the principles.




If I were to buy a product at a low end price point, I could take a
view on it and consider that it will be a disposable item after the
warranty runs out in 2 perhaps 3 years. Certainly the retailer
won't be repairing it if there are failures during this time.
snip

Equally you could buy a product at a low end price point which will
last a life time of hard use, because of were it's been made, or the
fact that it's a re branded product that would normally had a well
known brand mark in an existing market.

I'm not passing judgment on Kress (or any other manufacturer), just
the straw arguments that you are using,

They aren't straw arguments.

The only judgment that can be
used is how they perform - not what they look like, what they are
called, where they can be bought or what the service arrangements are.

I disagree.

Of course how they perform is important.

However, don't confuse ergonomics with appearance. Ergonomics is
about ease of use, weight, balance, controllability and so forth.

Where they can be bought is also extemely important. For the
consumer, the contract of sale is with the retailer and he bears
primary responsibility for the quality and servicability of the goods.
A supermarket operation is not geared up to provide service and so
the quality manufacturers provide spares and service arrangements. As
long as these are effective, it doesn't matter where the product is
purchased. OTOH, the unbranded tools sold as low end products in the
DIY stores are not provided with service and spares because it is not
economic to do so. The retailer and supplier take a commercial view on
the returns rate and pricing is adjusted to account for that. As long
as the customer understands that he is getting a 1,2 or 3 year product
that is living on borrowed time after that, then no problem.

I choose not to subscribe to the disposable tools business model.



When I look at Kress, the alarm bells begin to ring for all of the
reasons mentioned above. I am not commenting on whether or not
the make a good product. Clearly they aren't in Festool's league
or they would be competing with innovative rather than me-too
products.

Well having worked with certain tools within the Festool range I'm not
overly impressed, not good when each (basic range) unit cost circa 1k
ukp *each* - one should not have bearings failing each year, plastic
clips breaking off in use, hoses connections failing, or indeed hoses
failing in use - true the machines are extensively used but what do
Festool expect when selling to the commercial sector?

The basic range models do not cost circa £1k each. Drills and sanders
are in the £200-300 range. All of mine perform excellently.



OTOH, they don't appear to have the resources of the major players.
Despite comments that spares will be available for ten years, that
is only true as long as the company remains in business. Given the
market
snip

Well your latter point is true for all companies, if DeWalt or Festool
went bust spares would become a problem too.

Of course. The big difference is that they have a sustainable business
model, so that is highly unlikely.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 09:21:38 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 22:15:34 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:

snip

Your point being what, other than tool / brand snobbery?

It isn't an issue of snobbery, but of sound business principle.

Sorry but that is exactly what it is, many of the arguments you are
putting forward are of the straw man type.

Absolutely not. They are clearly explained. Different people may
have different criteria for purchase, but that doesn't alter the
principles.


Even a straw man argument can be clearly explained, it doesn't change
the basic merit of the argument used!

snip
When I look at Kress, the alarm bells begin to ring for all of the
reasons mentioned above. I am not commenting on whether or not
the make a good product. Clearly they aren't in Festool's
league
or they would be competing with innovative rather than me-too
products.

Well having worked with certain tools within the Festool range I'm
not
overly impressed, not good when each (basic range) unit cost circa
1k
ukp *each* - one should not have bearings failing each year,
plastic
clips breaking off in use, hoses connections failing, or indeed
hoses
failing in use - true the machines are extensively used but what do
Festool expect when selling to the commercial sector?

The basic range models do not cost circa £1k each. Drills and
sanders are in the £200-300 range. All of mine perform
excellently.

Little do you know about what Festool make then! The sanders I'm
talking about do cost from circa 1k each.




OTOH, they don't appear to have the resources of the major
players.
Despite comments that spares will be available for ten years, that
is only true as long as the company remains in business. Given
the
market
snip

Well your latter point is true for all companies, if DeWalt or
Festool
went bust spares would become a problem too.

Of course. The big difference is that they have a sustainable
business model, so that is highly unlikely.


More snobbery, any business in a competitive market can go bust, more
so if they indulge in 'own brand snobbery' and miss up and coming
competition (as has happened)...

On 2007-07-01 10:32:42 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:



Even a straw man argument can be clearly explained, it doesn't change
the basic merit of the argument used!

Possibly not. I think that there is plenty of merit or I wouldn't
have made the point.




snip
When I look at Kress, the alarm bells begin to ring for all of the
reasons mentioned above. I am not commenting on whether or not
the make a good product. Clearly they aren't in Festool's
league
or they would be competing with innovative rather than me-too
products.

Well having worked with certain tools within the Festool range I'm
not
overly impressed, not good when each (basic range) unit cost circa
1k
ukp *each* - one should not have bearings failing each year,
plastic
clips breaking off in use, hoses connections failing, or indeed
hoses
failing in use - true the machines are extensively used but what do
Festool expect when selling to the commercial sector?

The basic range models do not cost circa £1k each. Drills and
sanders are in the £200-300 range. All of mine perform
excellently.

Little do you know about what Festool make then! The sanders I'm
talking about do cost from circa 1k each.

That's fine. The context was about woodworking tools that are
comparable to those of the major professional tool manufacturers.






OTOH, they don't appear to have the resources of the major
players.
Despite comments that spares will be available for ten years, that
is only true as long as the company remains in business. Given
the
market
snip

Well your latter point is true for all companies, if DeWalt or
Festool
went bust spares would become a problem too.

Of course. The big difference is that they have a sustainable
business model, so that is highly unlikely.


More snobbery, any business in a competitive market can go bust, more
so if they indulge in 'own brand snobbery' and miss up and coming
competition (as has happened)...

It isn't an issue of snobbery, but of making correct business decisions
by manufacturer and customer.

Creating and maintaining a brand purely on form without substance
obviously goes nowhere and it should be obvious from my comments about
functionality, accuracy, ergonomics and servicability that I am very
much talking about substance.

Unfortunately, these are not enough. It's possible to build perfectly
good products. However, without the ability to manufacture at the
right cost point and to have the routes to market, it goes nowhere and
will ultimately fail.
Good market communications, product marketing and channel marketing are
essential to achieve the routes to market but unfortunately cost a lot
of money.

This is why I make the point about small manufacturers in western
Europe with high cost base, inadequate marketing and little or no
product differentiation trying to compete with the big boys. It isn't
a winning proposition, no matter how good the product might be.

In article , Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-06-30 20:39:11 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Where can I buy them in the UK with a Kress label?

A label freak! Wickes sell them under their name.

Then it is sold as a Wickes product, not a Kress one.

I've certainly noticed one of the wickes pro tools in my local with
a Kress Badge on instead of the Wickes one. Can't remember what it was
(SDS drill maybe?) but I definately remember the Kress badge as I remember
wondering if this was the start of wickes giving up branding them.

This was in the last couple of months - I've not been up there since so it
could have been a rogue box from the factory I guess

Darren

In article ews.net,
:Jerry: wrote:

Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that
effect?

Not definate proof but a few years ago I knackered the clutch in my dads
Wickes/Kress SDS drill (my fault - I was abusing it somewhat ). Rang
wickes about repairing it and they sent me to a local repair place (a chain
that has now gone bust - something like B&D Tools).

Anyway, the repair guy there seemed very knowledgeable and after telling
me it was identical to the kress on he had on the shelf pointed out that
he could sell me the Kress on for 10 quid less than Wickes sold theirs

He assured me they were identical in all but the badge. A few hours later
a new clutch was fitted, drill was serviced and it still works brilliantly
today.

He may have been talking rubbish but I got the impression he knew what he
was on about...

Darren

OMG, I've just realised I'm taking Drivels side - someone shoot me please!

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...


It is totally irrelevant, Drivel doesn't know his 'sale of goods' laws -
no surprise there...


The bit in all guarantees that says "this does not effect your statutory
rights" says it all really..
No manufacturers guarantee currently gives you more rights than you have
under the sale of goods act that I know of.
The only thing you can say is that its probably cheaper for the manufacturer
to fix the goods than it is for the retailer to fix them and then pass on
the charges plus admin to the manufacturer.
You can use that as a bargaining chip if you want a manufacturers service
guy to come and fix an out of warrantee item.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 10:32:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:



Even a straw man argument can be clearly explained, it doesn't
change
the basic merit of the argument used!

Possibly not. I think that there is plenty of merit or I wouldn't
have made the point.


Obviously, otherwise you would be trolling, but it still doesn't
change the fact that much of your arguments fail into the straw man
castigatory.




snip
When I look at Kress, the alarm bells begin to ring for all of
the
reasons mentioned above. I am not commenting on whether or
not
the make a good product. Clearly they aren't in Festool's
league
or they would be competing with innovative rather than me-too
products.

Well having worked with certain tools within the Festool range
I'm
not
overly impressed, not good when each (basic range) unit cost
circa
1k
ukp *each* - one should not have bearings failing each year,
plastic
clips breaking off in use, hoses connections failing, or indeed
hoses
failing in use - true the machines are extensively used but what
do
Festool expect when selling to the commercial sector?

The basic range models do not cost circa £1k each. Drills and
sanders are in the £200-300 range. All of mine perform
excellently.

Little do you know about what Festool make then! The sanders I'm
talking about do cost from circa 1k each.

That's fine. The context was about woodworking tools that are
comparable to those of the major professional tool manufacturers.


I think it had moved on to marketing and business practice a long way
up the thread...






OTOH, they don't appear to have the resources of the major
players.
Despite comments that spares will be available for ten years,
that
is only true as long as the company remains in business. Given
the
market
snip

Well your latter point is true for all companies, if DeWalt or
Festool
went bust spares would become a problem too.

Of course. The big difference is that they have a sustainable
business model, so that is highly unlikely.


More snobbery, any business in a competitive market can go bust,
more
so if they indulge in 'own brand snobbery' and miss up and coming
competition (as has happened)...

It isn't an issue of snobbery, but of making correct business
decisions by manufacturer and customer.

Yes, and allowing a chain store to market the product as unbranded is
not always bad, the German name "Kress" is to close to 'Krass' (with
the obvious English overtones) but if the same products are introduced
as an own brand but then later 'acquire' the "Kress" label people will
associate the shape and colour with the successful own brand IYSWIM.


Creating and maintaining a brand purely on form without substance
obviously goes nowhere and it should be obvious from my comments
about functionality, accuracy, ergonomics and servicability that I
am very much talking about substance.

Which are all relative to what the tool will be asked to do, who will
be using it, how and were it will be used - someone who is up
scaffolding doesn't want a limited battery life on a coreless drill,
someone who is using the same drill for 8 hrs a day will want
something with good ergonomics and serviceability, someone drilling
holes that have to line up with a mating part will want accuracy, OTOH
someone doing a bit of DIY will probably only want functionality [1] -
that might even inclued what professionals think gimmicks (such as a
laser line, built in spirit-level or battery level LEDs). Non of the
above makes for a good or bad tool, only if they can do the *work
intended*, by the purchaser, within the *intended market* the
manufacture sold it in.

[1] it might not matter if the battery life isn't that great, they
won't be using the drill continually that they risk suffering from
blisters or the gear train over-heating and needing servicing nor that
the hole for hanging the picture is 3mm out of line to the marked
point.


Unfortunately, these are not enough. It's possible to build
perfectly good products. However, without the ability to
manufacture at the right cost point and to have the routes to
market, it goes nowhere and will ultimately fail.

Yes and DeWalt are just as capable of falling foul of that as Pro
Tools or B&D are, which is probably why they are now found in B&Q and
not jut trade outlets.

Good market communications, product marketing and channel marketing
are essential to achieve the routes to market but unfortunately cost
a lot of money.

This is why I make the point about small manufacturers in western
Europe with high cost base, inadequate marketing and little or no
product differentiation trying to compete with the big boys. It
isn't a winning proposition, no matter how good the product might
be.


Except that the largest market for these small manufacturers is within
the easiest market to enter, the DIY market, not the difficult trade
arena.

"dmc" wrote in message
...
In article
ews.net,
:Jerry: wrote:

Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that
effect?

Not definate proof but a few years ago I knackered the clutch in my
dads
Wickes/Kress SDS drill (my fault - I was abusing it somewhat ).
Rang
wickes about repairing it and they sent me to a local repair place
(a chain
that has now gone bust - something like B&D Tools).

Anyway, the repair guy there seemed very knowledgeable and after
telling
me it was identical to the kress on he had on the shelf pointed out
that
he could sell me the Kress on for 10 quid less than Wickes sold
theirs

He assured me they were identical in all but the badge. A few hours
later
a new clutch was fitted, drill was serviced and it still works
brilliantly
today.


Indeed the parts might be inter-changeable but that doesn't mean that
the original manufacturing spec' is the same, just that the same
dimensions are used due to using the same basic tooling.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 00:46:46 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Kress survive because they are quality products.

That alone doesn't do it. Their better end range is better than Ryobi for
example, but not outstanding and not up to the level of the major
manufacturers. There is nothing innovative.

You know little of power tools.

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

snip

Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that
effect?

Talking to Wickes managers.

"dmc" wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
:Jerry: wrote:

Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that
effect?

Not definate proof but a few years ago I knackered the clutch in my dads
Wickes/Kress SDS drill (my fault - I was abusing it somewhat ). Rang
wickes about repairing it and they sent me to a local repair place (a
chain
that has now gone bust - something like B&D Tools).

Anyway, the repair guy there seemed very knowledgeable and after telling
me it was identical to the kress on he had on the shelf pointed out that
he could sell me the Kress on for 10 quid less than Wickes sold theirs

He assured me they were identical in all but the badge. A few hours later
a new clutch was fitted, drill was serviced and it still works brilliantly
today.

He may have been talking rubbish but I got the impression he knew what he
was on about...

Same here. The gut at Archway in London said the same. And they were the
Kress agent. The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again
as Wickes sold enough of their stock.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...


It is totally irrelevant, Drivel doesn't know his 'sale of goods' laws -
no surprise there...


The bit in all guarantees that says "this does not effect your statutory
rights" says it all really..
No manufacturers guarantee currently gives you more rights than you have
under the sale of goods act that I know of.

You can take issue with a maker, but they can be awkward if outside the
Guarantee period. You may be within the law, but it is hassle to get what
you should be getting - lawyers, etc. If the makers says 5 years then
inside they honour and no hassle.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

snip

Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that
effect?

Talking to Wickes managers.

Talk about ROFLMAO...

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

":Jerry:" wrote in message
reenews.net...

snip

Possibly made to Wickes spec',

No. Exactly the same as the Kress badged model.

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that
effect?

Talking to Wickes managers.

Talk about ROFLMAO...

No, we talked about the power tools.

On 2007-07-01 12:31:42 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 10:32:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:



Even a straw man argument can be clearly explained, it doesn't
change
the basic merit of the argument used!

Possibly not. I think that there is plenty of merit or I wouldn't
have made the point.


Obviously, otherwise you would be trolling,

I'm not trolling at all. In that sense, the boot is on the other foot
for the suggestion that the perfectly well presented discussion points
are straw man. They are not.


but it still doesn't
change the fact

Your point is an opinion, like mine. Neither are presented as fact.


that much of your arguments fail into the straw man
castigatory.

Nope.

It isn't an issue of snobbery, but of making correct business
decisions by manufacturer and customer.

Yes, and allowing a chain store to market the product as unbranded is
not always bad,

It wouldn't have been but for the following two points:

- There are large numbers of Chinese generic tools on the market that
each look almost the same apart from a few tweaks here and there. As
a result, the mass market has become desensitised and the unbranded --
branded strategy is no longer of much use

- Kress has nothing really innovative to offer and so it would be
difficult for any selling points to be transfered and recognised in
going from unbranded to branded.



the German name "Kress" is to close to 'Krass' (with
the obvious English overtones)

I hadn't really noticed that, and I am not sure that I would have done,
or indeed that a lot of punters would either. OTOH, a product name of
Sparky sounds more like a make of cheap toy.


but if the same products are introduced
as an own brand but then later 'acquire' the "Kress" label people will
associate the shape and colour with the successful own brand IYSWIM.

I think that that would be a very long shot given the market conditions.




Creating and maintaining a brand purely on form without substance
obviously goes nowhere and it should be obvious from my comments
about functionality, accuracy, ergonomics and servicability that I
am very much talking about substance.

Which are all relative to what the tool will be asked to do, who will
be using it, how and were it will be used - someone who is up
scaffolding doesn't want a limited battery life on a coreless drill,
someone who is using the same drill for 8 hrs a day will want
something with good ergonomics and serviceability, someone drilling
holes that have to line up with a mating part will want accuracy, OTOH
someone doing a bit of DIY will probably only want functionality

Wrong assumption. "Doing a bit of DIY" does not mean that ergonomics,
servicability, accuracy and usability fall by the wayside. This is
the same incorrect logic that because something is for DIY it should be
cheap.


[1] -
that might even inclued what professionals think gimmicks (such as a
laser line, built in spirit-level or battery level LEDs). Non of the
above makes for a good or bad tool, only if they can do the *work
intended*, by the purchaser, within the *intended market* the
manufacture sold it in.

[1] it might not matter if the battery life isn't that great, they
won't be using the drill continually that they risk suffering from
blisters or the gear train over-heating and needing servicing nor that
the hole for hanging the picture is 3mm out of line to the marked
point.

Under many circumstances an error in positioning of 3mm results in
worthless job. This is using the argument that because it's DIY,
accuracy doesn't matter. Accuracy is accuracy whether a professional
is doing the work or anybody else.





Unfortunately, these are not enough. It's possible to build
perfectly good products. However, without the ability to
manufacture at the right cost point and to have the routes to
market, it goes nowhere and will ultimately fail.

Yes and DeWalt are just as capable of falling foul of that as Pro
Tools or B&D are, which is probably why they are now found in B&Q and
not jut trade outlets.

If you read the analyst reports, you will learn that the branded tool
manufacturers are placing product in B&Q etc. in order to maintain and
grow market share. This is precisely because they have worked out
that there is a certain, albeit small, amount of trade business in them.

Why do you think that the three major manufacturers have all gone into this?




Good market communications, product marketing and channel marketing
are essential to achieve the routes to market but unfortunately cost
a lot of money.

This is why I make the point about small manufacturers in western
Europe with high cost base, inadequate marketing and little or no
product differentiation trying to compete with the big boys. It
isn't a winning proposition, no matter how good the product might
be.


Except that the largest market for these small manufacturers is within
the easiest market to enter, the DIY market, not the difficult trade
arena.

You have got to be joking. The easier market to enter would be that
with good margins and where the manufacturer can have some USPs. Fein
has done this very effectively with their oscillating technology,
protected with a raft of patents and by selling into the upper market.

The "DIY" supermarket category is as cut throat as it gets. Products
have a model lifetime of ten minutes before the next gimmick is
required, it's a numbers game with retailers wanting hefty margins and
the manufacturer taking all the risk with returns. This is the market
of the volume Chinese production houses, not the small European
manufacturer.