:Jerry: wrote:

I agree with John. DIY does not equate to cheap.


But then niether of you are what most would call 'the average DIYer',

Well neither are the majority of regulars on this group, I am sure that
between us we have a fairly fearsome idea of just what is DIYable!

if the average DIYer only bought "the best" places like B&Q would not
offer lines that don't sell, but what do we find stocked - plenty of
cheap (some would say) crap but the more expencive (and some would
say) better tools are noticeable by their absence - go into a true
trade outlet and the opposite is the case...

That is beginning to change a little I have noticed. Our local B&Q has a
reasonable range of high end kit as well as the own brand badged stuff
and mid range kit... blue Bosch, Makita etc. Wickes have started doing
Hitachi, and I don't go in Homebase enough to know what they do. It
would seem as the general populous gets more DIY savvy they are
obviously creating a market for the higher end tools. This is perhaps
not surprising since it seems quite common to buy something cheapish to
see if you get good use from it, and then trade up to something better
when you find you do.

My point is, people buy the best tool for what they will be *doing*,
not simply the tool with the best build quality. There is little point
in someone who is only ever going to put up the odd shelf in buying a
DaWalt drill, OTOH their is little point in someone who is
(re)building their own house buying a 19.99 ukp own brand special. The
problems occurs when people buy on price rather than on what the tool
will be asked to do, on the one hand they have expensive tools that
get under used and last until the cows come home (no real problem with
that, assuming that they haven't mortgaged the kids to buy the
tools...), but on the other hand we get people buying the cheapest and
then knackering the tool within a couple of months after having used
them constantly 12+ hrs a day - it's these people who then claim that
the tool is crap and should never be on sale!

There are relatively few tools that I would place in the truly crap
category, although for many people buying just on price will prove to be
a false economy since they will often end up buying it again.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:Jerry: wrote:

snip

if the average DIYer only bought "the best" places like B&Q would
not offer lines that don't sell, but what do we find stocked -
plenty of cheap (some would say) crap but the more expencive (and
some would say) better tools are noticeable by their absence - go
into a true trade outlet and the opposite is the case...

That is beginning to change a little I have noticed. Our local B&Q
has a reasonable range of high end kit as well as the own brand
badged stuff and mid range kit... blue Bosch, Makita etc. Wickes
have started doing Hitachi, and I don't go in Homebase enough to
know what they do. It would seem as the general populous gets more
DIY savvy they are obviously creating a market for the higher end
tools. This is perhaps not surprising since it seems quite common to
buy something cheapish to see if you get good use from it, and then
trade up to something better when you find you do.

I would suggest that it might be happening because the likes of B&Q,
Wicks and Homebase etc. are attempting to attract trade customers
rather than the general populous becoming more DIY savvy - of course
the wild-cat in all this is what influence the various DIY programmes
have in all this, it's possible that some of the general populous are
buying the same as what they see their "Hero's" using on the TV...

On Jun 29, 4:36 pm, Andy Hall wrote:
Good blades certainly do help, expecially in jig saws and circular saws.

However, in the case of a jig saw, the quality and engineering of the
blade holding mechanisms etc. are key to the ability of the saw to
maintain the stability of the cut.

There is a world of difference between the sub £50 jigsaw and the £100
products of Bosch, Makita et al.

It might not work out with a cheaper jigsaw and any old blade on one
attempt, but it doesn't mean it can't be done.

OK the right blade and a little technique are needed but it's quite
possible to get very good results.

cheers,
Pete.

John Rumm wrote:

Its certainly a safe way to know you will get something that is at a
minimum "good" and will last (and I have never been disappointed with
any of my Makita kit), but don't discount the other quality brands
since each will have tools that come out as "best of breed".

Thats exactly it John. I can't be arsed to look at every make & with a
165mm circukar saw there aren't that many about anyway. I know if I buy
Makita - based on the router, jigsaw, drill driver, impact driver I already
have, it's going to do what is says on the tin.

I think the jigsaw test is an ideal way to convince anyone who doubts
the value of decent tools. The Makita in particular is just *so* much
better than most peoples experience of a jigsaw as to be really quite
surprising even if you are expecting it to be lots better.

Agreed 100%. I smile every time I use it, worlds apart from other jigsaws.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-29 19:24:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-29 14:08:45 +0100, Matty F said:

On Jun 29, 11:27 pm, " wrote:
Have you got a link to the original report on that?

Here's a Usenet discussion with all the points that are sure to be
made:http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....thread/e25b1af...

Looking at the original thread,

http://groups.google.co.nz/group/nz....ad/thread/8d7c...

there seems to be just one person with an axe to grind, whilst the
other posters disagree with him.

Are you and "Pete" the same person?

No I don't know who Pete is. I think most of New Zealand would agree
that Makita badly stuffed up their handling of that case.

On a PR basis, possibly. However, this doesn't address the issue that
the user clearly didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding
safety glasses.

Matt, should he wear body armour as well?

For this one, no.

For the Techtronics Ryobi radial arm saw, possibly.

what is wrong with that?

On Jun 30, 2:11 am, " wrote:

Your issue with Makita seems to be both the quality of the tools and
that they didn't pay adequate compensation in respect to an incident
in NZ.

Some people in here are glowing in their praise of Makita tools. I am
saying that some of those tools have design problems which in some
cases are dangerous and need to be recalled, just like most brands. In
the case of the sander, the part that the sandpaper is attached to
simply fell apart and shot out at high speed. That probably would have
broken safety glasses. The operator was not misusing the tool, it
simply was dangerously defective, and had been recalled in the US six
months earlier than the accident. Not enough effort was made to notify
buyers of the sander in New Zealand.

Initially, on the Fair Go TV programme, a Makita executive refused
point blank to offer any compensation whatsoever for the loss of an
eye.

As far as the compensation issue goes, there seems to be some aspect
of NZ law that is distinctly different "ACC", that many of the posters
on the original thread referred to - can you explain what this means?

NZ Accident Compensation law means that nobody can be sued for damages
in an accident. There's not time to explain it all here. The State
will compensate for injury. But the State will often prosecute people
who caused an accident and fine them heavily, which did not occur with
Makita.

On 2007-06-30 00:59:27 +0100, Matty F said:

On Jun 30, 2:11 am, " wrote:

Your issue with Makita seems to be both the quality of the tools and
that they didn't pay adequate compensation in respect to an incident
in NZ.

Some people in here are glowing in their praise of Makita tools. I am
saying that some of those tools have design problems which in some
cases are dangerous and need to be recalled, just like most brands. In
the case of the sander, the part that the sandpaper is attached to
simply fell apart and shot out at high speed. That probably would have
broken safety glasses.

It would not break the type of safety glasses recommended for use with
this type of tool.



The operator was not misusing the tool, it
simply was dangerously defective, and had been recalled in the US six
months earlier than the accident. Not enough effort was made to notify
buyers of the sander in New Zealand.

He was misusing the tool because he was not wearing the correct type of
eye protection. Had he been doing so, the injury would not have
arisen,.




Initially, on the Fair Go TV programme, a Makita executive refused
point blank to offer any compensation whatsoever for the loss of an
eye.

Quite rightly so. The customer had not used the tool in accordance
with the maker's instructions.

Would you expect them to compensate a user of a drill who sits a piece
of wood on his lap and then proceeds to drill into a major artery in
the leg?



As far as the compensation issue goes, there seems to be some aspect
of NZ law that is distinctly different "ACC", that many of the posters
on the original thread referred to - can you explain what this means?

NZ Accident Compensation law means that nobody can be sued for damages
in an accident. There's not time to explain it all here. The State
will compensate for injury. But the State will often prosecute people
who caused an accident and fine them heavily, which did not occur with
Makita.

Clearly the state did not consider that there was a case to answer on
the part of the manufacturer. Had there been one, as you say, there
would have been a prosecution and a heavy fine.

You are confusing misuse of product with product liability and using
emotional arguments to justify an untenable argument.

On Jun 30, 12:36 pm, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-06-30 00:59:27 +0100, Matty F said:

The operator was not misusing the tool, it
simply was dangerously defective, and had been recalled in the US six
months earlier than the accident. Not enough effort was made to notify
buyers of the sander in New Zealand.

He was misusing the tool because he was not wearing the correct type of
eye protection. Had he been doing so, the injury would not have
arisen,.

The tool did not fall apart because it was being misused. It fell
apart because unsatisfactory materials were used in its construction.
That is why all of the sanders have been recalled to replace the
faulty part.

Initially, on the Fair Go TV programme, a Makita executive refused
point blank to offer any compensation whatsoever for the loss of an
eye.

Quite rightly so. The customer had not used the tool in accordance
with the maker's instructions.

Makita have since compensated the one-eyed man with an undisclosed
amount. They at last came to their senses. But rather too late for
people with long memories like me.

Matty F wrote:

Some people in here are glowing in their praise of Makita tools. I am
saying that some of those tools have design problems which in some
cases are dangerous and need to be recalled, just like most brands. In

Which if you read carefully, you will note we agreed with. I would not
suggest any one brand is perfect, and no one brand has a monopoly on the
best tools. However I would say that you could quite comfortably get
away just buying one quality brand for all your tool requirements and
you will end up with a collection of tools that should last well, and
will do the job. more careful research may however identify alternative
tools that will outperform some of them, however if you don't want to
invest the time required to do that research the "buy one brand"
solution seems quite workable at this level.

Going for Makita seems to be a reasonable choice since they are usually
better value than blue Bosch, and seem more consistent in quality than
DeWalt. The range of tools they make is also bigger than most of the
others.

the case of the sander, the part that the sandpaper is attached to
simply fell apart and shot out at high speed. That probably would have
broken safety glasses. The operator was not misusing the tool, it

If the user had maintained the sander correctly then it should not have
been spinning at high speed. The instructions for random orbit sanders
typically explain that the maximum rotation speed is limited by a
friction clutch. Should the speed rise too high when not in contact with
the work, then it is time to replace the clutch.

NZ Accident Compensation law means that nobody can be sued for damages
in an accident. There's not time to explain it all here. The State
will compensate for injury. But the State will often prosecute people
who caused an accident and fine them heavily, which did not occur with
Makita.

Which would suggest the state supported the notion that Makita did not
contribute to the accident by there (in)actions.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 03:09:00 UTC, Matty F
wrote:

Makita have since compensated the one-eyed man with an undisclosed
amount. They at last came to their senses. But rather too late for
people with long memories like me.

I hope they made a proportional reduction if he failed to wear eye
protection.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 2007-06-30 04:09:00 +0100, Matty F said:

On Jun 30, 12:36 pm, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-06-30 00:59:27 +0100, Matty F said:

The operator was not misusing the tool, it
simply was dangerously defective, and had been recalled in the US six
months earlier than the accident. Not enough effort was made to notify
buyers of the sander in New Zealand.

He was misusing the tool because he was not wearing the correct type of
eye protection. Had he been doing so, the injury would not have
arisen,.

The tool did not fall apart because it was being misused.

I didn't say that it was. I said that the injury resulted because the
tool was being misused.


It fell
apart because unsatisfactory materials were used in its construction.

Probably true, but that was not the cause of the injury. Whether or
not the tool fell apart, he should have been using eye protection
according to the manufacturer's instructions.


That is why all of the sanders have been recalled to replace the
faulty part.

A sander with a broken component is not a lot of use. However, this
does not detract from the user not following the instructions. Had
he done so, he would not have lost an eye. There were no other
reports of serious injuries and it is highly unlikely that there would
be from a small component from a sander.




Initially, on the Fair Go TV programme, a Makita executive refused
point blank to offer any compensation whatsoever for the loss of an
eye.

Quite rightly so. The customer had not used the tool in accordance
with the maker's instructions.

Makita have since compensated the one-eyed man with an undisclosed
amount. They at last came to their senses.

I am quite sure that that was a PR exercise - that would be the only
basis of "coming to senses". Frankly, the guy didn't deserve to get
anything. Clearly, the government body involved didn't either, or it
would have mounted a prosecution.


But rather too late for
people with long memories like me.

I doubt whether they will lose too much sleep over that.

On 2007-06-30 09:28:33 +0100, "Bob Eager" said:

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 03:09:00 UTC, Matty F
wrote:

Makita have since compensated the one-eyed man with an undisclosed
amount. They at last came to their senses. But rather too late for
people with long memories like me.

I hope they made a proportional reduction if he failed to wear eye
protection.

Yes, a 99.9% one would be appropriate.

It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I know of no cheap budget Impact Drivers.

True. And I will be quite curious to see if they make the same splash
in the diy market when they do.

I was referring to Dave trying a professional tool brand and finding
it worthwhile to pay the extra. I thought that was an impact driver,
but as he pointed out it was actually a Mak jigsaw.

"Matty F" wrote in message
oups.com...

snip

The State
will compensate for injury. But the State will often prosecute
people
who caused an accident and fine them heavily, which did not occur

That would have been a bummer, loose an eye through ones own actions
(in not wearing eye protection) and then get prosecuted!...

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
wrote:
It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

Yes, agreed. It was actually the Makita jigsaw, reinforced by the Makita
impact driver. I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so
good and 'does exactly what is says on the tin'.

Have you got a good van vault or similar?
I have the vault and an alarm and also CCTV when at home to protect the van
and it's contents.

Adam

On 2007-06-29 23:48:40 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-06-29 19:24:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Matt, should he wear body armour as well?

For this one, no.

For the Techtronics Ryobi radial arm saw, possibly.

what is wrong with that?

One doesn't normally expect to wear body armour when using a radial arm
saw and neither do the manufacturers recommend it.

On 2007-06-30 10:18:54 +0100, " said:


It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I know of no cheap budget Impact Drivers.

True. And I will be quite curious to see if they make the same splash
in the diy market when they do.

They already are in the DIY market. Screwfix have a Makita 12v one
for £139 and an unbranded one for £100.



I was referring to Dave trying a professional tool brand and finding
it worthwhile to pay the extra. I thought that was an impact driver,
but as he pointed out it was actually a Mak jigsaw.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:Jerry: wrote:

I agree with John. DIY does not equate to cheap.


But then niether of you are what most would call 'the average DIYer',

Well neither are the majority of regulars on this group, I am sure that
between us we have a fairly fearsome idea of just what is DIYable!

if the average DIYer only bought "the best" places like B&Q would not
offer lines that don't sell, but what do we find stocked - plenty of
cheap (some would say) crap but the more expencive (and some would say)
better tools are noticeable by their absence - go into a true trade
outlet and the opposite is the case...

That is beginning to change a little I have noticed. Our local B&Q has a
reasonable range of high end kit as well as the own brand badged stuff and
mid range kit... blue Bosch, Makita etc. Wickes have started doing
Hitachi, and I don't go in Homebase enough to know what they do. It would
seem as the general populous gets more DIY savvy they are obviously
creating a market for the higher end tools. This is perhaps not surprising
since it seems quite common to buy something cheapish to see if you get
good use from it, and then trade up to something better when you find you
do.

Wickes have a three ranges: DIY (1 yr guarantee), semi-pro (3 yr) and full
pro (5 yr). Then the Hitchai range at 1 year. I know of no other pro tool
with a 5 yr guarantee.

I recall one assisteant a few years back when they only has pro and DIY
saying that most tools sold were DIY; professionals would buy them. Now it
appears the pros will buy the semi-pro if cutting back on costs.

My point is, people buy the best tool for what they will be *doing*, not
simply the tool with the best build quality. There is little point in
someone who is only ever going to put up the odd shelf in buying a DaWalt
drill, OTOH their is little point in someone who is (re)building their
own house buying a 19.99 ukp own brand special.

The outlaw bought cheap budget PP drill for extensive re-work in the house.
It failed of course - he does use it like a hammer though and if treated
right probably would have been OK. He then went out and bought the pro
range from Wickes and has been well chuffed as it can take the abuse.

The PP drill is fine for occasional use - its intended market. It does the
job very well and as good as any top brand. It just can't take abuse and
sustained daily pro use. Horses for courses - get the right tool/quality
for the intended use. On price even if the outlaw had to replace the failed
PP drill, it would still be cheaper than buying a pro drill as thety are so
cheap. So don't slag off the cheapies as they can be very cost effective,
even if you have to buy two of them to get a big job done.

The problems occurs when people buy on price rather than on what the tool
will be asked to do, on the one hand they have expensive tools that get
under used and last until the cows come home (no real problem with that,
assuming that they haven't mortgaged the kids to buy the tools...), but
on the other hand we get people buying the cheapest and then knackering
the tool within a couple of months after having used them constantly 12+
hrs a day - it's these people who then claim that the tool is crap and
should never be on sale!

There are relatively few tools that I would place in the truly crap
category, although for many people buying just on price will prove to be a
false economy since they will often end up buying it again.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 10:18:54 +0100, " said:


It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I know of no cheap budget Impact Drivers.

True. And I will be quite curious to see if they make the same splash
in the diy market when they do.

They already are in the DIY market. Screwfix have a Makita 12v one for
£139

I would not call £139 in the DIY price range.

and an unbranded one for £100.

It is the Sparky. Sparky are a big pro brand in Germany and Eastern
Europe - very common there. Just because you have never heard of it does
not mean it is "unbranded". There again I would not call £100 in the DIY
range for a drill.

On 2007-06-30 11:19:22 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Wickes have a three ranges: DIY (1 yr guarantee), semi-pro (3 yr) and full
pro (5 yr). Then the Hitchai range at 1 year. I know of no other pro tool
with a 5 yr guarantee.

That's because the manufacturers of professional tools don't need to
give a 5 year guarantee in order to sell them, rather suggesting that
these are wannabee products aspiring to a market.

The offered guarantee periods are irrelevant in any case if one is
buying as a consumer.




The PP drill is fine for occasional use - its intended market. It does the
job very well and as good as any top brand.

No it isn't. These products are cheap generic junk built down to a
price with design and manufacturing quality to match.


It just can't take abuse and
sustained daily pro use. Horses for courses - get the right tool/quality
for the intended use. On price even if the outlaw had to replace the failed
PP drill, it would still be cheaper than buying a pro drill as thety are so
cheap. So don't slag off the cheapies as they can be very cost effective,
even if you have to buy two of them to get a big job done.

There is far more to the purchase and use of tools than duty cycle.

- Accuracy
- Controllabilty
- Speed and torque control
- Mechanical or electronic clutch
- Battery quality

On 2007-06-30 11:25:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 10:18:54 +0100, " said:


It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I know of no cheap budget Impact Drivers.

True. And I will be quite curious to see if they make the same splash
in the diy market when they do.

They already are in the DIY market. Screwfix have a Makita 12v one for
£139

I would not call £139 in the DIY price range.

Of course it is. DIY is not about price.



and an unbranded one for £100.

It is the Sparky. Sparky are a big pro brand in Germany and Eastern
Europe - very common there. Just because you have never heard of it does
not mean it is "unbranded".

It's unbranded and is not a professional range.

There again I would not call £100 in the DIY
range for a drill.

Of course it is. DIY does not equate only to cheapness, or for that
matter to cheapness at all. The purpose is to achieve an outcome
better than a professional at the time and convenience for the
individual. It may also result in a cost saving depending on how one
costs one's time. In addition, it may be an enjoyed pastime.
Given all of that, if the correct tool is required to achieve all of
these objectives, the difference in cost between a professional tool at
£140 and a grotty one at £100 is neither here nor there; as indeed
would be the difference between real junk with a possible price tag of
£40 vs. the proper thing at £140.

Diy tools a
Sold mainly through diy outlets
Have both brands widely recognised by diy'ers and diy outlets own
brands
Tend to be loaded with features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on price than build quality
Prioritise price over durability
Cordless tools tend to have slow chargers, single batteries and less
good cell life

Professional tools a
*differentiated by manufacturers from their diy ranges*
Sold mainly through trade outlets
Concentrate on brands widely recognised by professionals
Have limited features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on build quality than price
Prioritise durability over price
Cordless tools tend to have fast chargers, multiple batteries with
very good cell life

Based on those factors, I'd say the 100 quid Sparky impact driver just
about makes it to the pro side.

Ryobi OTOH is one of the few companies (possibly the only?) that
chooses to blur the diy/pro distinction

I'd also say - generally - that 100 quid is about the absolute max
price that the diy will stand.

There are sub 100 quid pro tools - but I tend to notice that when
these are sold through diy outlets the retailers choose a price point
with a significant gap from their other products - unlike their usual
custom of a continuous spectrum in 5 and 10 pound increments.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

DIY does not equate only to cheapness, or for that matter to
cheapness at all. The purpose is to achieve an outcome better than
a professional at the time and convenience for the individual. It
may also result in a cost saving depending on how one costs one's
time. In addition, it may be an enjoyed pastime.

Different strokes of the saw and all that, DIY is about what the
person doing it wants, the above is how *you* see DIY, to me it's
doing it *how I want it done* (for example, pipes run were I want
them, bends or elbows used not were it's easy or indeed best but were
they look 'right'), but for many it *will* be about saving money [1] -
if it means spending as much buying the tools as it would to get a
'man in' why bother?!

[1] I don't know who old you are Andy but that is how 'Do It Yourself'
started in the UK, as anyone who remembers magazines like 'Practical
Householder' (what ever did happen to PH?) in the '60's & '70's will
remember, as a necessity rather than a hobby.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 11:19:22 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Wickes have a three ranges: DIY (1 yr guarantee), semi-pro (3 yr) and
full
pro (5 yr). Then the Hitchai range at 1 year. I know of no other pro
tool
with a 5 yr guarantee.

That's because the manufacturers of professional tools don't need to give
a 5 year guarantee in order to sell them, rather suggesting that these are
wannabee products aspiring to a market.

Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product. If a maker has faith in their
product then they will stand by long guarantees. Look at 5 yr guarantees in
some auto makers now. No low quality car maker gives 5 year guarantees.

The offered guarantee periods are irrelevant in any case if one is buying
as a consumer.

Most don't know that.

The PP drill is fine for occasional use - its intended market. It does
the
job very well and as good as any top brand.

No it isn't.

It is.

It just can't take abuse and
sustained daily pro use. Horses for courses - get the right tool/quality
for the intended use. On price even if the outlaw had to replace the
failed
PP drill, it would still be cheaper than buying a pro drill as thety are
so
cheap. So don't slag off the cheapies as they can be very cost
effective,
even if you have to buy two of them to get a big job done.

There is far more to the purchase and use of tools than duty cycle.

You have yet again lost the plot.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 11:25:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 10:18:54 +0100, " said:


It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I know of no cheap budget Impact Drivers.

True. And I will be quite curious to see if they make the same splash
in the diy market when they do.

They already are in the DIY market. Screwfix have a Makita 12v one for
£139

I would not call £139 in the DIY price range.

Of course it is. DIY is not about price.

Matt, you are mad.

and an unbranded one for £100.

It is the Sparky. Just because you have never heard of it does
not mean it is "unbranded".

It's unbranded and is not a professional range.

Once again..."Sparky are a big pro brand in Germany and Eastern Europe -
very common there."

There again I would not call £100 in the DIY
range for a drill.

Of course it is.

It isn't. £100 is far too high.

Again you have lost the plot.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Diy tools a
Sold mainly through diy outlets
Have both brands widely recognised by diy'ers and diy outlets own
brands
Tend to be loaded with features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on price than build quality
Prioritise price over durability
Cordless tools tend to have slow chargers, single batteries and less
good cell life

Professional tools a
*differentiated by manufacturers from their diy ranges*
Sold mainly through trade outlets
Concentrate on brands widely recognised by professionals
Have limited features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on build quality than price
Prioritise durability over price
Cordless tools tend to have fast chargers, multiple batteries with
very good cell life

Based on those factors, I'd say the 100 quid Sparky impact driver just
about makes it to the pro side.

The £100 is because it is made in Eastern Europe - rates of exchange make it
cheap. Sparky is a German company.

Ryobi OTOH is one of the few companies (possibly the only?) that
chooses to blur the diy/pro distinction

They cleverly aim for both markets with the same products. Confusion is
that they have not been in the Makita, DeWalt range for years, so image is
blurred. The ONE+ range, using the one battery for a whole range of tools,
is clearly aimed at the pro market. Feedback from these products is good.
They are well priced and good.

I'd also say - generally - that 100 quid is about the absolute max
price that the diy will stand.

I would say way over the top for a DIY product - and £139 is clearly pro.
Far, far less than £100 gets suitable DIY tools.

There are sub 100 quid pro tools - but I tend to notice that when
these are sold through diy outlets the retailers choose a price point
with a significant gap from their other products - unlike their usual
custom of a continuous spectrum in 5 and 10 pound increments.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip
That's because the manufacturers of professional tools don't need to
give a 5 year guarantee in order to sell them, rather suggesting
that these are wannabee products aspiring to a market.


That would be why some (nominally) trade only manufacturers, with
their own distribution / sales network, offer a lifetime guarantee
then...

:Jerry: wrote:

they look 'right'), but for many it *will* be about saving money [1] -
if it means spending as much buying the tools as it would to get a
'man in' why bother?!

There are occasions where I have done a job that has required tool
purchase - and the total cost was comparable to getting someone else to
do it. The difference is, that at the end of the job you get to keep the
tool. So the next time it will be cheaper. (of course if there never is
a "next time" then you just get some more clutter to store! ;-)

[1] I don't know who old you are Andy but that is how 'Do It Yourself'
started in the UK, as anyone who remembers magazines like 'Practical
Householder' (what ever did happen to PH?) in the '60's & '70's will
remember, as a necessity rather than a hobby.

I am sure thinks like home furniture building existed as a hobby before
then, although "DIY" obviously did not have the profile it has now. A
large part of that is the things we expect from our living spaces has
changed dramatically over the years, and hence the range of home
improvements that are available and calling for our money has grown
enormously.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2007-06-30 13:12:15 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-06-30 11:19:22 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Wickes have a three ranges: DIY (1 yr guarantee), semi-pro (3 yr) and full
pro (5 yr). Then the Hitchai range at 1 year. I know of no other pro tool
with a 5 yr guarantee.

That's because the manufacturers of professional tools don't need to
give a 5 year guarantee in order to sell them, rather suggesting that
these are wannabee products aspiring to a market.

Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product.

In the UK market that is exactly what it is. Do you see their product
offered with their name by any retailer?



If a maker has faith in their product then they will stand by long
guarantees. Look at 5 yr guarantees in some auto makers now. No low
quality car maker gives 5 year guarantees.

The professional tool marketplace has 1 year guarantees in the main and
3 year (e.g. Bosch and Festool) in order to capture customer details.
There is no reason for a manufacturer to go outside this norm unless
he wants to establish a market position that he doesn't have. In
this case the warranty is from Wickes anyway because it is their
private label brand. They have a junk end product, a low mid range
with three year warranty and an upper mid range with 5 years. The
warranties are simply part of the price differentiation to justify a
higher price for their "premium" product.




The offered guarantee periods are irrelevant in any case if one is
buying as a consumer.

Most don't know that.

Much to the benefit of retailers.



The PP drill is fine for occasional use - its intended market. It does the
job very well and as good as any top brand.

No it isn't.

It is.

Oh, puhleez......



It just can't take abuse and
sustained daily pro use. Horses for courses - get the right tool/quality
for the intended use. On price even if the outlaw had to replace the failed
PP drill, it would still be cheaper than buying a pro drill as thety are so
cheap. So don't slag off the cheapies as they can be very cost effective,
even if you have to buy two of them to get a big job done.

There is far more to the purchase and use of tools than duty cycle.

You have yet again lost the plot.

On the contrary.

On 2007-06-30 13:30:30 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip
That's because the manufacturers of professional tools don't need to
give a 5 year guarantee in order to sell them, rather suggesting
that these are wannabee products aspiring to a market.


That would be why some (nominally) trade only manufacturers, with
their own distribution / sales network, offer a lifetime guarantee
then...

I was talking about the major manufacturers of corded and cordless
power tools. The industry norm is a year with certain offers of 3
years in order to get customer details.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 13:12:15 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 11:19:22 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Wickes have a three ranges: DIY (1 yr guarantee), semi-pro (3 yr) and
full
pro (5 yr). Then the Hitchai range at 1 year. I know of no other pro
tool
with a 5 yr guarantee.

That's because the manufacturers of professional tools don't need to
give a 5 year guarantee in order to sell them, rather suggesting that
these are wannabee products aspiring to a market.

Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product.

In the UK market that is exactly what it is.

Once again..."Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product."

If a maker has faith in their product then they will stand by long
guarantees. Look at 5 yr guarantees in some auto makers now. No low
quality car maker gives 5 year guarantees.

In this case the warranty is from Wickes anyway because it is their
private label brand.

RE-badged using quality products and they stand by the products.

They have a junk end product, a low mid range with three year warranty and
an upper mid range with 5 years.

Yep. They cover the market. Take your choice.

It is amazing that someone defends companies offering poor guarantee service
of 1 year.

On 2007-06-30 12:50:31 +0100, " said:

Diy tools a
Sold mainly through diy outlets
Have both brands widely recognised by diy'ers and diy outlets own
brands
Tend to be loaded with features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on price than build quality
Prioritise price over durability
Cordless tools tend to have slow chargers, single batteries and less
good cell life

Professional tools a
*differentiated by manufacturers from their diy ranges*
Sold mainly through trade outlets
Concentrate on brands widely recognised by professionals
Have limited features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on build quality than price
Prioritise durability over price
Cordless tools tend to have fast chargers, multiple batteries with
very good cell life

These are reasonable as far as they go but should include ergonomics,
controllability and accuracy as well as service and spares availability
for professional products.

The manufacturer of a professional tool should also ideally have a
reputation and a track record in tools of a certain type established
over many years. For example, Bosch make excellent jig saws, Makita
make excellent drills, Hitachi make excellent circular saws and Senco
excellent pneumatic nailers.

There are some professional tool manufacturers who specialise almost
entirely in one area - e.g. Lamello with biscuit joiners and Fein with
oscillating mult-purpose tools.

There are a very small number who are able to introduce innovative new
tools and technologies where the purchaser can be quite confident that
they will almost certainly have done a good job.
Festool is an obvious one in this category who over the last few years
introduced a stepping motor based drill (C12), a new form of joining
machine (Domino) and an innovative SCMS design (Kapex)



Based on those factors, I'd say the 100 quid Sparky impact driver just
about makes it to the pro side.

Not in my view. This company has no market position in the UK and is
sold as the entry level in its categories.



Ryobi OTOH is one of the few companies (possibly the only?) that
chooses to blur the diy/pro distinction

That's because it's one of a range of brands produced by the large
Chinese conglomerate, Techtronics Industries. They have a very cheap
brand, Power Devil, two mid range, AEG and Ryobi, and a higher end,
Milwaukee. The Milwaukee products mainly sold in the U.S. and were
positioned and deserved the accolade of chunky and heavy duty tools for
contractors. In particular, their worm drive circular saws and
substantial drills were legendary. Following acquisition of the brand
of TTI, they are a shadow of their former self.






I'd also say - generally - that 100 quid is about the absolute max
price that the diy will stand.

I disagree. This is making the correlation between DIY use and price
which simply doesn't hold water.



There are sub 100 quid pro tools - but I tend to notice that when
these are sold through diy outlets the retailers choose a price point
with a significant gap from their other products - unlike their usual
custom of a continuous spectrum in 5 and 10 pound increments.

Which illustrates the point of products with gimmicks at price points.

On 2007-06-30 13:20:56 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


wrote in message
ups.com...
Diy tools a
Sold mainly through diy outlets
Have both brands widely recognised by diy'ers and diy outlets own
brands
Tend to be loaded with features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on price than build quality
Prioritise price over durability
Cordless tools tend to have slow chargers, single batteries and less
good cell life

Professional tools a
*differentiated by manufacturers from their diy ranges*
Sold mainly through trade outlets
Concentrate on brands widely recognised by professionals
Have limited features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on build quality than price
Prioritise durability over price
Cordless tools tend to have fast chargers, multiple batteries with
very good cell life

Based on those factors, I'd say the 100 quid Sparky impact driver just
about makes it to the pro side.

The £100 is because it is made in Eastern Europe - rates of exchange
make it cheap. Sparky is a German company.

There has been relatively little variation in the Euro to Sterling
exchange rate. The company is Bulgarian and manufactures there. It
has German management. and an office in Berlin. They previously made
AEG tools under license before that brand was sold to TTI.




Ryobi OTOH is one of the few companies (possibly the only?) that
chooses to blur the diy/pro distinction

They cleverly aim for both markets with the same products. Confusion
is that they have not been in the Makita, DeWalt range for years, so
image is blurred. The ONE+ range, using the one battery for a whole
range of tools, is clearly aimed at the pro market.

Aimed at but not particularly successful by market share because these
are mid range and not professional tools. There is nothing innovative
in the common battery pack concept. The major manufacturers have been
offering that for years.


Feedback from these products is good. They are well priced and good.

They are reasonable for the price charged as a mid range but not a
professional product.

Milwaukee is TTI's "professional" brand



I'd also say - generally - that 100 quid is about the absolute max
price that the diy will stand.

I would say way over the top for a DIY product - and £139 is clearly
pro. Far, far less than £100 gets suitable DIY tools.

The price point isn't particularly relevant in terms of suitability for
DIY purposes.

The retailers simply want to have products targeted at certain price
points that they can shift in volume.

On 2007-06-30 13:09:07 +0100, ":Jerry:" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

DIY does not equate only to cheapness, or for that matter to
cheapness at all. The purpose is to achieve an outcome better than
a professional at the time and convenience for the individual. It
may also result in a cost saving depending on how one costs one's
time. In addition, it may be an enjoyed pastime.

Different strokes of the saw and all that, DIY is about what the
person doing it wants, the above is how *you* see DIY, to me it's
doing it *how I want it done* (for example, pipes run were I want
them, bends or elbows used not were it's easy or indeed best but were
they look 'right')

I would agree with and include that as well.

If I buy and use good quality tools, I can get a better result and I am
not likely to get fatigued because the ergonomics are poor. The
outcome is a pleasing and cost effective result.




, but for many it *will* be about saving money [1] -
if it means spending as much buying the tools as it would to get a
'man in' why bother?!

One would hope that the capex for the tool could be amortised over many
projects. The tool rental places are there for cases where those
economics don't add up.




[1] I don't know who old you are Andy but that is how 'Do It Yourself'
started in the UK, as anyone who remembers magazines like 'Practical
Householder' (what ever did happen to PH?) in the '60's & '70's will
remember, as a necessity rather than a hobby.

I certainly do, and would agree with you that for some people it is a
chore and necessity. In that era, I tended to use it as a learning
opportunity but soon realised that I could fairly easily do a better
job than a professional.

Fashions change though. People in general have more disposable
income as well.

I don't see any argument that equates DIY simply and only with saving
of money and especially for buying on price rather than value. That
is very limiting and not representative of the market of today.

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:58:33 -0700, Matty F
wrote:

On Jun 29, 11:41 am, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

I won't buy anything but Makita from now on, it's just so
good and 'does exactly what is says on the tin'.

You just don't realise the difference until you use the kit every day. It's
not just the longevity, its the way they do the job.

I will never buy a Makita product.
This recall notice is a lie. A user in New Zealand lost an eye when
his sander pad broke apart, and Makita didn't want to compensate him
until forced to by public opinion..
Losing an eye is NOT a "minor injury".

Did his eye shield fail as well?

On 2007-06-30 13:14:01 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-06-30 11:25:32 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 10:18:54 +0100, " said:


It's interesting to see over the months how you've come round to
buying pro tools. I think your road to Damascus was when you finally
tried an impact driver.

I know of no cheap budget Impact Drivers.

True. And I will be quite curious to see if they make the same splash
in the diy market when they do.

They already are in the DIY market. Screwfix have a Makita 12v one for
£139

I would not call £139 in the DIY price range.

Of course it is. DIY is not about price.

Matt, you are mad.

Nope. I am absolutely serious. If your sole purchasing criterion is
price, then that's for you, but it is erroneous to assume that
everybody has price as the only or even the leading criterion.




and an unbranded one for £100.

It is the Sparky. Just because you have never heard of it does
not mean it is "unbranded".

It's unbranded and is not a professional range.

Once again..."Sparky are a big pro brand in Germany and Eastern Europe
- very common there."

It's a Bulgarian company that has been around for some years. Like
Kress, it has not been successful in establishing its own brand other
than in certain geographies so chooses to increas volume by selling at
low prices in other territories.



There again I would not call £100 in the DIY
range for a drill.

Of course it is.

It isn't. £100 is far too high.

No it isn't. That's the entry price for a decent one.

On 2007-06-30 19:17:18 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-06-30 13:12:15 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message ...
On 2007-06-30 11:19:22 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:

Wickes have a three ranges: DIY (1 yr guarantee), semi-pro (3 yr) and full
pro (5 yr). Then the Hitchai range at 1 year. I know of no other pro tool
with a 5 yr guarantee.

That's because the manufacturers of professional tools don't need to
give a 5 year guarantee in order to sell them, rather suggesting that
these are wannabee products aspiring to a market.

Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product.

In the UK market that is exactly what it is.

Once again..."Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product."

Where can I buy them in the UK with a Kress label?




If a maker has faith in their product then they will stand by long
guarantees. Look at 5 yr guarantees in some auto makers now. No low
quality car maker gives 5 year guarantees.

In this case the warranty is from Wickes anyway because it is their
private label brand.

RE-badged using quality products and they stand by the products.

No, Wickes (allegedly) stands by the products.



They have a junk end product, a low mid range with three year warranty
and an upper mid range with 5 years.

Yep. They cover the market. Take your choice.

Wickes cover the market for them in the UK. I am sure that Kress
would have prefered to use Wickes as a reseller and establish the Kress
brand. However, it seems that not only were Wickes able to have a
private label situation but may well also have excluded Kress from
selling with their own brand. This rather suggests a weak commercial
position.



It is amazing that someone defends companies offering poor guarantee
service of 1 year.

The guarantee is somewhat irrelevant as we already established.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

The price point isn't particularly relevant in terms of suitability for
DIY purposes.


DIY users are usually prepared to pay more for a product that is easy to
use.
People that are learning to do DIY buy cheap stuff.

On 2007-06-30 20:09:14 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

The price point isn't particularly relevant in terms of suitability for
DIY purposes.


DIY users are usually prepared to pay more for a product that is easy to
use.
People that are learning to do DIY buy cheap stuff.

That's probably true. The novice also tends to be attracted by
gimmicks - e.g. laser guides and cordless tools with lots of volts.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-06-30 13:20:56 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


wrote in message
ups.com...
Diy tools a
Sold mainly through diy outlets
Have both brands widely recognised by diy'ers and diy outlets own
brands
Tend to be loaded with features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on price than build quality
Prioritise price over durability
Cordless tools tend to have slow chargers, single batteries and less
good cell life

Professional tools a
*differentiated by manufacturers from their diy ranges*
Sold mainly through trade outlets
Concentrate on brands widely recognised by professionals
Have limited features/gimmicks
Put greater emphasis on build quality than price
Prioritise durability over price
Cordless tools tend to have fast chargers, multiple batteries with
very good cell life

Based on those factors, I'd say the 100 quid Sparky impact driver just
about makes it to the pro side.

The £100 is because it is made in Eastern Europe - rates of exchange make
it cheap. Sparky is a German company.

There has been relatively little variation in the Euro to Sterling
exchange rate. The company is Bulgarian and manufactures there.

It is German and makes some stuff in Romania.

It has German management. and an office in Berlin. They previously made
AEG tools under license before that brand was sold to TTI.

Yep they made top quality AEG stuff

Ryobi OTOH is one of the few companies (possibly the only?) that
chooses to blur the diy/pro distinction

They cleverly aim for both markets with the same products. Confusion is
that they have not been in the Makita, DeWalt range for years, so image
is blurred. The ONE+ range, using the one battery for a whole range of
tools, is clearly aimed at the pro market.

Aimed at but not particularly successful by market share because these are
mid range and not professional tools.

Amazing! Many pros use them.

Feedback from these products is good. They are well priced and good.

They are reasonable for the price charged as a mid range but not a
professional product.

Pro product. Many pros use them.

Milwaukee is TTI's "professional" brand

I'd also say - generally - that 100 quid is about the absolute max
price that the diy will stand.

I would say way over the top for a DIY product - and £139 is clearly pro.
Far, far less than £100 gets suitable DIY tools.

The price point isn't particularly relevant in terms of suitability for
DIY purposes.

It is when far less than £100 get most DIY tools.