I'm not a happy bunny using ladders - probably because I know how dangerous
they can be.

Would I be/feel safer if I bought a ladder stand off like this
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...90916&id=10275

Or a ladder stabiliser like this?
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...91075&id=34609

Or should I just wear brown trousers?


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:

I'm not a happy bunny using ladders - probably because I know how dangerous
they can be.

Would I be/feel safer if I bought a ladder stand off like this
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...90916&id=10275

Or a ladder stabiliser like this?
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...91075&id=34609

Or should I just wear brown trousers?

heh. I dont like the big ones much either. Another approach to ladder
safety is to use a harness. The if you come off the ladder, youre not
going far. Screwfix sell them.


NT

The Medway Handyman wrote:
I'm not a happy bunny using ladders - probably because I know how
dangerous they can be.

Would I be/feel safer if I bought a ladder stand off like this
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...90916&id=10275

Or a ladder stabiliser like this?
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...91075&id=34609

Or should I just wear brown trousers?

Having had to work off ladders with fairly heavy machinery for many years, I
can say with all honesty that the only time I was scared was when some
idiotic council made us use these stand offs, the stabilisers are even
worse.

The worst thing about the stand offs are that they make you too far away
from the wall - they are 18 inches away at the top rung! - if you are a few
rungs down from that you are over 2 ft away, so you have to stretch, this is
when accidents happen.
As far as the 'stabilisers' go - would you *feel* safe climbing a ladder
resting in that contraption?

The best ladder stabiliser is soil - simply place the ladders on a flowerbed
where possible and jump on the first rung to sink them in....failing this
(if they are on hardstanding) sprag them off a wall, kerb or any other solid
upright - I've even seen people knock a bolster chisel into gaps and put the
foot of the ladder against it to prevent slipping - slipping is the only
thing that can cause the ladder to fall, and they don't slip sideways.
A good set of ladders should not wobble from side to side when extended and
you are climbing up them...if they do give sideways movement at height, get
rid of them and buy a rigid set, also don't have them too far away from the
wall.

In message , Phil L
writes
The Medway Handyman wrote:
I'm not a happy bunny using ladders - probably because I know how
dangerous they can be.

Would I be/feel safer if I bought a ladder stand off like this
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...90916&id=10275

Or a ladder stabiliser like this?
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...91075&id=34609

Or should I just wear brown trousers?

Having had to work off ladders with fairly heavy machinery for many years, I
can say with all honesty that the only time I was scared was when some
idiotic council made us use these stand offs, the stabilisers are even
worse.

The worst thing about the stand offs are that they make you too far away
from the wall - they are 18 inches away at the top rung! - if you are a few
rungs down from that you are over 2 ft away, so you have to stretch, this is
when accidents happen.

Well if you use them in totally the wrong situation then they aren't
going to help are they?

A stand off is designed to lift the ladder away from the wall so that it
will clear things like gutters, so that the ladder can extend up past
the gutters. You are meant to be standing with the upper part of your
body above the stabiliser. this makes working on gutters so much easier
and safer than if the ladder stops on the wall below it, Esp. if the
building has deep eaves. I consider them pretty much essential for
using a ladder to maintain our gutters etc.

They can also be useful when working on windows. The stabiliser is
placed below the window, with the ladder extending up in front of the
window. You can work from the ladder with out the problems you
sometimes have in placing the ladder securely. It is also easier to work
on bits of the window that would be very close to the ladder - say when
a ladder was resting on the wall above a window.

As far as the 'stabilisers' go - would you *feel* safe climbing a ladder
resting in that contraption?

What exactly are your objections to them (I've never used one, I'm
genuinely interested)-

The best ladder stabiliser is soil - simply place the ladders on a flowerbed
where possible and jump on the first rung to sink them in

Having had the experience of a ladder starting to move when I was up the
top when it was resting on soil - and I had done my best to firm the
feet of the ladder. - it's not something I would ever recommend. Even
trying to firm the foot of the ladder in as you suggest you can never
quite be sure how secure it is..


....failing this
(if they are on hardstanding) sprag them off a wall, kerb or any other solid
upright - I've even seen people knock a bolster chisel into gaps and put the
foot of the ladder against it to prevent slipping

I've used a couple of bags of sand at the feet for the same sort of
thing.

Worst situation IMO is a slope across the foot of the ladder. No matter
how well I pack out the base to level it, I never feel entirely happy
that something isn't going to move.

--
Chris French

The Medway Handyman wrote:
I'm not a happy bunny using ladders - probably because I know how dangerous
they can be.

Would I be/feel safer if I bought a ladder stand off like this
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...90916&id=10275

I share your fears over using ladders and despite having now done a
whole load of work at height (guttering, burglar alarm, complete house
repaint) I'm still not comfortable.

However, ever since I got myself a stand-off - specifically this one:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...96155&id=32096
I've found things a whole lot easier. Fits in seconds (I am led to
beleive that the type you quoted above can be a bit fiddly) and makes
the whole ladder incredibly sturdy - you really can feel the difference
not only for its anti-twisting but also lateral/vertical slip thanks to
the 50mm rubber 'feet' that fit squarely against the wall.

The platform aspect to the one I've got really helps too - it easily
swallows a paint tray which for me was a real boon. Indeed, just having
somewhere to place tools (holds 10kg max) avoids what all-too-often
feels like a juggling act. Furthermore, when you're positioned in front
of it you can't see down below it which certainly helps my fear of
heights!

Another poster mentioned that stand-offs position you too far from the
wall - I couldn't disagree more. When working at the height of the
stand-off the wall is well within reach and you're able to comfortably
drill etc without dangerously leaning back - indeed you can stay hard
up against the ladder and work completely centrally so you really
couldn't feel (and be) safer. If further down the ladder you're too far
from the wall you need to be shortening the ladder height - that safety
rule applies whether you're using a standoff or not.

The advantages when it comes to clearing guttering speak for
themselves, and it's handy to be able to not have your ladder
positioning restricted due to soil/drain pipes etc as it can straddle
around a 6-inch protusion from the wall.

In case you haven't worked it out, I can highly recommend stand-offs
(or at least specifically the 'LadderMax' one I've got).

Mathew

wrote:


heh. I dont like the big ones much either. Another approach to ladder
safety is to use a harness. The if you come off the ladder, youre not
going far. Screwfix sell them.

But don't you have to go up the ladder to attach them?


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In article . com,
"Mathew Newton" writes:
In case you haven't worked it out, I can highly recommend stand-offs
(or at least specifically the 'LadderMax' one I've got).

Ditto.
I use the Wickes one which easily clips on to a ladder.
It doesn't have a shelf, but my drill easily sits in the
metal framework of it. Make sure it includes the spring
clip -- I've seen them on display with that missing.

--
Andrew Gabriel

chris French wrote:
In message , Phil L
writes
Having had to work off ladders with fairly heavy machinery for many
years, I can say with all honesty that the only time I was scared
was when some idiotic council made us use these stand offs, the
stabilisers are even worse.

The worst thing about the stand offs are that they make you too far
away from the wall - they are 18 inches away at the top rung! - if
you are a few rungs down from that you are over 2 ft away, so you
have to stretch, this is when accidents happen.

Well if you use them in totally the wrong situation then they aren't
going to help are they?

A stand off is designed to lift the ladder away from the wall so that
it will clear things like gutters, so that the ladder can extend up
past the gutters. You are meant to be standing with the upper part
of your body above the stabiliser. this makes working on gutters so
much easier and safer than if the ladder stops on the wall below it,
Esp. if the building has deep eaves. I consider them pretty much
essential for using a ladder to maintain our gutters etc.


The ones we had to use attatched to the top of the ladders and held them out
from the wall about 14+ inches, not good when you are trying to drill holes
in aformentioned wall with a Hilti TE72 with a 25mm diameter and 15 inch
long drill bit! - I suppose they could be handy for working on gutters in
the scenario you describe above, but I've always just placed mine onto the
facsia board.


They can also be useful when working on windows. The stabiliser is
placed below the window, with the ladder extending up in front of the
window. You can work from the ladder with out the problems you
sometimes have in placing the ladder securely. It is also easier to
work on bits of the window that would be very close to the ladder -
say when a ladder was resting on the wall above a window.

As far as the 'stabilisers' go - would you *feel* safe climbing a
ladder resting in that contraption?

What exactly are your objections to them (I've never used one, I'm
genuinely interested)-

I just don't feel safe with them - the only ones that were OK were simple
'T' plates...a sort of flat aluminium plate about 2 ft long and a foot wide,
and coming up from the centre was another aluminium plate about 3 inches
high, like an upturned letter T, on the bottom was thick rubber with grips
on it.


The best ladder stabiliser is soil - simply place the ladders on a
flowerbed where possible and jump on the first rung to sink them in

Having had the experience of a ladder starting to move when I was up
the top when it was resting on soil - and I had done my best to firm
the feet of the ladder. - it's not something I would ever recommend.
Even trying to firm the foot of the ladder in as you suggest you can
never quite be sure how secure it is..


Provided both feet go in the same depth, it can't slip backwards - your
weight, and that of the ladder, is bearing down on the feet, it would have
to uproot itself out of the soil/clay...the only time it can move is if one
foot hits a rock and the other hits soft soil, hence my recomendation to
jump on the bas***d as hard as you can before climbing.


....failing this
(if they are on hardstanding) sprag them off a wall, kerb or any
other solid upright - I've even seen people knock a bolster chisel
into gaps and put the foot of the ladder against it to prevent
slipping

I've used a couple of bags of sand at the feet for the same sort of
thing.

Worst situation IMO is a slope across the foot of the ladder. No
matter how well I pack out the base to level it, I never feel
entirely happy that something isn't going to move.

I've got to agree, having had my ladders fully extended on a garage apex
while drilling out the peak of a high gable more than enough times than I
care to remember!

I also remember doing Blackpool Royal hospital many moons ago, with 40ft
ladders (the ones with ropes to extend them) and not being high enough, we
placed them on top of a van on a plank...needless to say, I took the van
keys with me up the ladder.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
wrote:

heh. I dont like the big ones much either. Another approach to ladder
safety is to use a harness. The if you come off the ladder, youre not
going far. Screwfix sell them.

But don't you have to go up the ladder to attach them?

Not normally. When working below roof height, go upstairs first, attach
rope to X shaped 2 pieces of meaty wood, and pass rope out window. The
large X stops this thing coming out the window if it should ever be
used in anger.

When working at roof height, tie 1 or 2 toilet rolls to end of rope and
throw it over the roof ridge (bogroll = soft non-damaging weight). Walk
the thrown end back round, make a noose there, and tie a long string to
the noose. Now, thread rope thru noose and pull it tight so you've got
the top noosed round the chimney stack. Just pull the string all the
way down when you need to remove it.

Knotting a loop every 2' in this rope means you can move the harness
attachment point as you go. This is good for ropes secured indoors, but
no good for a chimney rope. Using 2 clip on ties from harness to rope
means youre still attached even while you reattach.

Finally, even if you were to just attach it to whatever height youre
at, it still means a much reduced fall, which is the difference between
'oh ****' and 'nooooooo'

A harness also enables working off a vertical ladder in those
situations where access is really problematic. As well as stopping
falls from an insecure work platform, you can also clip the harness to
the ladder at waist height and lean back for comfortable working. If
you dare


NT

Phil L wrote:

The best ladder stabiliser is soil - simply place the ladders on a flowerbed
where possible and jump on the first rung to sink them in....failing this
(if they are on hardstanding) sprag them off a wall, kerb or any other solid
upright - I've even seen people knock a bolster chisel into gaps and put the
foot of the ladder against it to prevent slipping - slipping is the only
thing that can cause the ladder to fall, and they don't slip sideways.

how to have an accident in one easy paragraph.


NT

Phil L wrote:

A good set of ladders should not wobble from side to side when extended and
you are climbing up them...if they do give sideways movement at height, get
rid of them and buy a rigid set, also don't have them too far away from the
wall.

This is a very good point. Many of the DIY rated ladders (especially
those with I section ali stiles) exhibit very poor latteral stability.
Unless you are built like an anorexic whippet, you will always feel much
safer on a decent BS EN 131 "trade" rated ladder.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Phil L" wrote in message
k...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
I'm not a happy bunny using ladders - probably because I know how
dangerous they can be.

Would I be/feel safer if I bought a ladder stand off like this
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...90916&id=10275

Or a ladder stabiliser like this?
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...91075&id=34609

Or should I just wear brown trousers?

Having had to work off ladders with fairly heavy machinery for many years,
I can say with all honesty that the only time I was scared was when some
idiotic council made us use these stand offs, the stabilisers are even
worse.

The worst thing about the stand offs are that they make you too far away
from the wall - they are 18 inches away at the top rung! - if you are a
few rungs down from that you are over 2 ft away, so you have to stretch,
this is when accidents happen.
As far as the 'stabilisers' go - would you *feel* safe climbing a ladder
resting in that contraption?

I doubt you have used it or you wouldn't have made that particular point.
Just like using ladders properly can be safe when used properly, of course
its safe when used properly. Its really designed for sloping ground which
it deals with extremely well. Not particularly good with uneven ground
because of the limited range of adjustment of the legs. I find it
cumbersome if the ladder requires moving frequently.

To answer the OPs original question, a good standoff, I particularly commend
the "Screwfix superior" really adds to stability by moving the point of
contact well outside the point of work. Don't understand your criticism,
you must have had a rubbish standoff.

Jim A

In article . com,
"Mathew Newton" wrote:

In case you haven't worked it out, I can highly recommend stand-offs
(or at least specifically the 'LadderMax' one I've got).

Mathew (and also Chris who replied earlier): I've also got a LadderMax.
On one window (above the porch, so very difficult to lean ladders over
the porch) it proved fantastic: it made painting that window a complete
doddle, and, as you've also remarked, I have never felt safer on a
ladder!

However ... on other windows I have difficulty getting the Laddermax at
the correct position on the wall, partly because -- and this is the
point of my question -- I find it *extremely* heavy to manoeuvre the
ladder with the LadderMax on the end. It only weighs a couple of kilos
of course, but on the end of a ladder it gets awful heavy.

Any tips? Or do I just need to be a lot bigger and heavier?

John

wrote in message
ps.com...


{ snip a lot of advice about Heath Robinson fall arrest }

People planning to make home-made fall-arrest/work-positioning systems need
to be really careful that they understand the very high forces which can be
involved in arresting a fall, and also the implications of being caught
dangling and injured in a harness with no rescue method. (Basically that
you'll be dead after a few minutes of dangling)

If a lashed-up 'safety harness' encourages you to do wild things at the top
of a ladder, it's made your life more dangerous, not less.

Will

Will Dean wrote:
wrote in message
ps.com...


{ snip a lot of advice about Heath Robinson fall arrest }

People planning to make home-made fall-arrest/work-positioning systems need
to be really careful

Well he did tie 1 or 2 toilet rolls to the end of the rope. If I fell,
I'd need 'em...

Will Dean wrote:
wrote in message
ps.com...

{ snip a lot of advice about Heath Robinson fall arrest }

People planning to make home-made fall-arrest/work-positioning systems need
to be really careful that they understand the very high forces which can be
involved in arresting a fall,

a) 10mm nylon rope
b) if you do fall, you've got the choice between falling to the ground
and falling 2-3 feet. I prefer the small fall.


and also the implications of being caught
dangling and injured in a harness with no rescue method.

the ladder is the means of rescue.

(Basically that
you'll be dead after a few minutes of dangling)

why will you be dead after a few minutes after falling 2 or 3 feet??
Do you think someone would be better off falling all the way to the
ground?


If a lashed-up 'safety harness' encourages you to do wild things at the top
of a ladder, it's made your life more dangerous, not less.

I think thats true of any safety system. The idea is to realise the
dangers of ladders and create a second line of defence against falls,
one that is secured rather than just leaning against a wall. Most
diyers use no backup system at all, this one will improve the odds
considerably. Professional kit would be even better. If people that use
ladders and currently die adopt a secondary protectoin system, even
something basic like this, many deaths and serious injuries would be
prevented. The kit comes in at under £40, most of the cost being for
the harness.


NT

Will Dean wrote:
wrote in message
ps.com...

{ snip a lot of advice about Heath Robinson fall arrest }

People planning to make home-made fall-arrest/work-positioning systems need
to be really careful that they understand the very high forces which can be
involved in arresting a fall, and also the implications of being caught
dangling and injured in a harness with no rescue method. (Basically that
you'll be dead after a few minutes of dangling)

If a lashed-up 'safety harness' encourages you to do wild things at the top
of a ladder, it's made your life more dangerous, not less.

Will



We all have a height tolerance threshold, which increases over time. OP
will just have to get used to it gradually.

John wrote:

However ... on other windows I have difficulty getting the Laddermax at
the correct position on the wall, partly because -- and this is the
point of my question -- I find it *extremely* heavy to manoeuvre the
ladder with the LadderMax on the end. It only weighs a couple of kilos
of course, but on the end of a ladder it gets awful heavy.

You must be using a very lighweight set of ladders to notice the effect
of the standoff (either that or you have left the tin of paint on it!)

Any tips? Or do I just need to be a lot bigger and heavier?

You may find one with wheels easier to handle:

http://www.laddersafetysupplies.co.u...ffdevices.html


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
John wrote:

However ... on other windows I have difficulty getting the Laddermax at
the correct position on the wall, partly because -- and this is the point
of my question -- I find it *extremely* heavy to manoeuvre the ladder
with the LadderMax on the end. It only weighs a couple of kilos of
course, but on the end of a ladder it gets awful heavy.

You must be using a very lighweight set of ladders to notice the effect of
the standoff (either that or you have left the tin of paint on it!)

Any tips? Or do I just need to be a lot bigger and heavier?

You may find one with wheels easier to handle:

http://www.laddersafetysupplies.co.u...ffdevices.html


the wheels just make me think what goes up easier comes down easier...

Jim A

John wrote:

However ... on other windows I have difficulty getting the Laddermax at
the correct position on the wall, partly because -- and this is the
point of my question -- I find it *extremely* heavy to manoeuvre the
ladder with the LadderMax on the end. It only weighs a couple of kilos
of course, but on the end of a ladder it gets awful heavy.

Any tips? Or do I just need to be a lot bigger and heavier?

John

I know what you mean however I do find it much easier (whether the
LadderMax is fitted or not) to manouvre the ladder with it vertical -
you're then just having to contend with the actual weight as opposed to
forces of leverage too.

Arguably easier said than done but with a bit of practice I can handle
our 7m ladder okay, however when the day comes that it topples
backwards/sideways and crashes through the neighbours patio doors
perhaps I'll rethink the strategy...

Mathew

wrote in message
ups.com...
Will Dean wrote:

a) 10mm nylon rope

What kind of rope?

If you fall from above your attachment point using a static rope and no
energy absorbtion pack, you will almost certainly break something, be it
rope, harness or anchor point.

b) if you do fall, you've got the choice between falling to the ground
and falling 2-3 feet. I prefer the small fall.

It sounds to me that you're looking at a small fall, a sudden jerk/ripping
noise and then a longer fall.

the ladder is the means of rescue.

I thought the ladder had fallen down.... Even if you have an assistant,
they're not going to be able to climb an ordinary ladder, arrange an adult
on their shoulder, cut the lanyard and then climb down with you.

why will you be dead after a few minutes after falling 2 or 3 feet??
Do you think someone would be better off falling all the way to the
ground?

If you're unable to move when you're dangling in your harness, you'll be
dead within a short time for reasons which are not *completely* understood
but are well documented. Look up 'suspension trauma'. If you've fallen on
a rope which is tied through a window or over the eaves of a house, you'll
have been bashed into the wall as you fell.

The kit comes in at under £40, most of the cost being for
the harness.

I think you'd be better putting the forty quid towards a higher quality
ladder - I don't think you're going to do much useful for that in terms of
bits of nylon.

Will

Jim Alexander wrote:

http://www.laddersafetysupplies.co.u...ffdevices.html



the wheels just make me think what goes up easier comes down easier...

True, but I don't think there is actually much tractile grip from the
top of a ladder anyway. It is the ladder base that does the lions share
of preventing the ladder slipping away from the wall. The top just
prevenets it falling to the side. So the rubber contact from the wheels
probably does a better job of this than the normal ladder end pieces.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Will Dean wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Will Dean wrote:

a) 10mm nylon rope

What kind of rope?

If you fall from above your attachment point using a static rope and no
energy absorbtion pack, you will almost certainly break something, be it
rope, harness or anchor point.

10mm nylon tow rope. The harnesses have limited energy absorption, the
rope has a little but not a lot. The idea is to minimise fall distance.


b) if you do fall, you've got the choice between falling to the ground
and falling 2-3 feet. I prefer the small fall.

It sounds to me that you're looking at a small fall, a sudden jerk/ripping
noise and then a longer fall.

the ladder is the means of rescue.

I thought the ladder had fallen down.... Even if you have an assistant,
they're not going to be able to climb an ordinary ladder, arrange an adult
on their shoulder, cut the lanyard and then climb down with you.

Since one is using ropes, the ladder can usually be tied to prevent it
falling down. With ladder and harness attached to the same point or
same rope, the fall victim will end up next to the ladder - this is
only beneficial for short falls of course.

However there is more than one scenario and more than one approach. If
the faller is uninjured the assistant can reposition the ladder and
hook the harness to the ladder using one of the 2 short clip on ropes,
move the person onto the ladder and either release them from the main
rope or reconnect to a lower point on the rope.

If the faller is injured they can be lowered via the rope using either
of a couple of different methods.


why will you be dead after a few minutes after falling 2 or 3 feet??
Do you think someone would be better off falling all the way to the
ground?

If you're unable to move when you're dangling in your harness, you'll be
dead within a short time for reasons which are not *completely* understood
but are well documented. Look up 'suspension trauma'.

Hmm, didnt know bout that one. Guess its not so useful then.


If you've fallen on
a rope which is tied through a window or over the eaves of a house, you'll
have been bashed into the wall as you fell.

The kit comes in at under £40, most of the cost being for
the harness.

I think you'd be better putting the forty quid towards a higher quality
ladder - I don't think you're going to do much useful for that in terms of
bits of nylon.

What we need then is a controlled decent mechanism, a speed limiter.


NT

wrote:

The kit comes in at under £40, most of the cost being for
the harness.

I think you'd be better putting the forty quid towards a higher quality
ladder - I don't think you're going to do much useful for that in terms of
bits of nylon.

What we need then is a controlled decent mechanism, a speed limiter.

If you really want to do it the climber's (safe) way you need something
like this:
http://www.jackson-sports.com/Models...1&ModelID=2486 plus
a proper harness, so a hundred quid.
For a thorough explanation of the dangers of falling even short
distances on a static rope see he
http://www.southeastclimbing.com/faq...all_factor.htm

Huge wrote:
On 2006-08-22, Will Dean wrote:

If you're unable to move when you're dangling in your harness, you'll be
dead within a short time for reasons which are not *completely* understood
but are well documented. Look up 'suspension trauma'.

http://www.suspensiontrauma.info/

Good God. I didn't know any of this.

BTW, my solution was to buy a scaffold tower. Ladders are scarey.



Jesus, what is this with ladders? The only accidents I've heard of round
here are to do with people used to heights who get sloppy e.g. stepping
off ladders at the top when they thought they were at the bottom
(probably while listening to Radio 1). D-i-yers are the least likely to
have accidents I would have thought.

In article , Huge
writes
On 2006-08-22, Will Dean wrote:

If you're unable to move when you're dangling in your harness, you'll be
dead within a short time for reasons which are not *completely* understood
but are well documented. Look up 'suspension trauma'.

http://www.suspensiontrauma.info/

Good God. I didn't know any of this.

BTW, my solution was to buy a scaffold tower. Ladders are scarey.



Christ that is very scary!, as there have been times I've worked in the
past almost dangling in a body harness and haven't felt too well
afterwards!!!!!
--
Tony Sayer

Huge wrote:
On 2006-08-22, Will Dean wrote:

If you're unable to move when you're dangling in your harness,
you'll be dead within a short time for reasons which are not
*completely* understood but are well documented. Look up
'suspension trauma'.

http://www.suspensiontrauma.info/

Good God. I didn't know any of this.

Even more scary, my daughter didn't know anything about it either - and
she's a paramedic with London Ambulance Service. It all made perfect sense
to her once she read it.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

peter wrote:

If you really want to do it the climber's (safe) way you need something
like this:
http://www.jackson-sports.com/Models...1&ModelID=2486 plus
a proper harness, so a hundred quid.
For a thorough explanation of the dangers of falling even short
distances on a static rope see he
http://www.southeastclimbing.com/faq...all_factor.htm

thanks for the links, reading those too

NT

peter wrote:

For a thorough explanation of the dangers of falling even short
distances on a static rope see he
http://www.southeastclimbing.com/faq...all_factor.htm

Interesting that they state the elasticity of a static rope at as little
as 0.5% - 1.5%

That means a 1m fall would result in deceleration from about 4.5m/sec to
rest in (say) 1cm - or about 1000G if my sums are right!

As they say, "that has got to hurt!"


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Huge wrote:
On 2006-08-22, Will Dean wrote:

If you're unable to move when you're dangling in your harness,
you'll be dead within a short time for reasons which are not
*completely* understood but are well documented. Look up
'suspension trauma'.

http://www.suspensiontrauma.info/

Good God. I didn't know any of this.

Even more scary, my daughter didn't know anything about it either - and
she's a paramedic with London Ambulance Service. It all made perfect sense
to her once she read it.

It's pretty well known to anyone who does rock climbing, if someone
falls you have to get them off the rope as soon as possible even at
risk of some further injury.

--
Chris Green

The message
from contains these words:

If you're unable to move when you're dangling in your harness,
you'll be dead within a short time for reasons which are not
*completely* understood but are well documented. Look up
'suspension trauma'.

http://www.suspensiontrauma.info/

Good God. I didn't know any of this.

Even more scary, my daughter didn't know anything about it either - and
she's a paramedic with London Ambulance Service. It all made
perfect sense
to her once she read it.

It's pretty well known to anyone who does rock climbing, if someone
falls you have to get them off the rope as soon as possible even at
risk of some further injury.

It may well be well known now but it didn't used to be the case. The
danger of dangling on the end of a rope as generally understood in the
50s/60s was said to be that the rope round the waist restricted the
breathing to such an extent that a dangling climber could die in as
little as 10 minutes which was the impetus to move to climbing harnesses
for many climbers, particularly those who were unconvinced of the
superiority of a hemp waist loop over a nylon rope tied directly round
the waist. Incidentally a body hanging free either tied on round the
waist or in a sit harness does not appear to be at risk as both legs and
trunk hang below the central support and the head below the heart.

The business of fall factors has been known for some time. IIRC it was
brought to the attention of British climbers in an article in the
Climber & Rambler early/mid 70s by someone called Kimber who may well
have done at least some of the original thinking. Even to a mechanical
engineer it appeared initially counter intuitive to suppose that the
forces on an arrested body depended on the ratio of run-out rope to fall
distance rather than the length the fall.

--
Roger Chapman