On 12 Dec 2004, wrote

Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to climb a
ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf

Which paragraphs are you talking about in there?

From what I can see, the draft specifically excludes private
householders -- unless acting as an employer and hiring someone like a
tree-trimmer to do work for them -- and whilst it seeks to encourage
other approaches (like pole-cleaning of windows instead of ladder
access), Para 56 implies that ladders will continue to be used. ("The
safety of sole workers who use ladders, such as window-cleaners,
depends significantly on their correct use, and adequate training is
essential" seems obvious rather than overly restrictive to me.)

I figure the basic approach is right: working at height from ladders
should be a last resort rather than a default choice.

--
Cheers,
Harvey

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:

Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to climb a
ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf



As far as I can see, this is an extension to the Health and Safety *at Work*
Act - and applies to people who are *employed* to work at height.

Unless I'm mistaken, it has no relevance to unpaid DIY activities.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:


Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to climb a
ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf




As far as I can see, this is an extension to the Health and Safety *at Work*
Act - and applies to people who are *employed* to work at height.

Unless I'm mistaken, it has no relevance to unpaid DIY activities.
What puzzles me is that in the late 50s early 60 in Germany all modern
buildings had windows designed so that they could be cleaned from
inside,why don't we do that? Before the wags come along they
tilted/opened inwards and when open the outside of any fixed window
could be reached through the opening. We always had clean windows, not
window cleaners smears.

wrote in message
...
Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to climb a
ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf


Where in that document does it actually say this?

If that is the case, where is the provision to allow for the use of ladders
in emergencies - is that stated in this document?

Brian G

On 12 Dec 2004, Brian G wrote


wrote in message
...
Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to climb
a ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf


Where in that document does it actually say this?

I can't find it, either.

If that is the case, where is the provision to allow for the use
of ladders in emergencies - is that stated in this document?

AFAICT, all it says is to try to avoid working at height (for windows,
for example, to consider pole-cleaning instead of ladder-and-rag), but
if unavoidable or impractical, employers will need to supply proper
equipment and train people properly in using that equipment.
(Houseowners doing their own work are expressly excluded.)

As for ladders, the main point seems to be "except in restricted cases,
ladders are for access; they're not working platforms" -- which
doesn't strike me as an outrageous starting point.

--
Cheers,
Harvey

wrote in message
...
Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to climb a
ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf

I was losing the will to live by the time I got to page 8 of 166!

Rick

"Harvey Van Sickle" wrote in message
...
On 12 Dec 2004, Brian G wrote


wrote in message
...
Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to climb
a ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf


Where in that document does it actually say this?

I can't find it, either.

If that is the case, where is the provision to allow for the use
of ladders in emergencies - is that stated in this document?

AFAICT, all it says is to try to avoid working at height (for windows,
for example, to consider pole-cleaning instead of ladder-and-rag), but
if unavoidable or impractical, employers will need to supply proper
equipment and train people properly in using that equipment.
(Houseowners doing their own work are expressly excluded.)

As for ladders, the main point seems to be "except in restricted cases,
ladders are for access; they're not working platforms" -- which
doesn't strike me as an outrageous starting point.

--
Cheers,
Harvey

Is a self-employed window cleaner going to have to pay to go on a course to
teach himself how not to fall off the ladder? Hmmmmm.....

And I wonder who paid for this 168 page document to be put together.

I imagine the cost of having a few panes wiped professionally will go up
even more, and a few infirm people will fall off ladders when trying to do
it themselves because they can't afford the window cleaner any more.

On 12 Dec 2004, Coherers wrote

"Harvey Van Sickle" wrote in message
...
On 12 Dec 2004, Brian G wrote


wrote in message
...
Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to
climb a ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf


Where in that document does it actually say this?

I can't find it, either.

If that is the case, where is the provision to allow for the use
of ladders in emergencies - is that stated in this document?

AFAICT, all it says is to try to avoid working at height (for
windows, for example, to consider pole-cleaning instead of
ladder-and-rag), but if unavoidable or impractical, employers
will need to supply proper equipment and train people properly in
using that equipment. (Houseowners doing their own work are
expressly excluded.)

As for ladders, the main point seems to be "except in restricted
cases, ladders are for access; they're not working platforms" --
which doesn't strike me as an outrageous starting point.

--
Cheers,
Harvey

Is a self-employed window cleaner going to have to pay to go on a
course to teach himself how not to fall off the ladder?
Hmmmmm.....

Did you read the document? From the scan I made of it, it appeared to
go into relatively good detail about self-employed vs employed regs.

And I wonder who paid for this 168 page document to be put
together.

I imagine the cost of having a few panes wiped professionally will
go up even more, and a few infirm people will fall off ladders
when trying to do it themselves because they can't afford the
window cleaner any more.

Possibly.

But are the problems at householder level a valid reason not to make
regs, and thus to let employers -- on a building site, say (where I've
seen this sort of stuff most often) -- get away with "don't be such a
wimp, Freddie: get up your ass up there and clean the effin' thing;
you'll soon get the hang of it if you don't fall off".

--
Cheers,
Harvey

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:44:14 +0000, wrote:

Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to climb a
ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf

This is just bringing together parts of existing legislation. Working from
a ladder is already considered as a poor option - it can be done, but other
means should be used *where reasonable and practical*. ie: window cleaners
can use ladders, as can someone nipping up to clean a gutter, but someone
retiling a roof would be expected use scaffolding. Someone fitting a light
in a factory could use a ladder, but someone fitting or maintaining dozens
of them would be expected to use a mobile tower or a cherry-picker.

All these rules apply only to *work*, not to diy.

Steve W

"Harvey Van Sickle" wrote in message
...
On 12 Dec 2004, Coherers wrote

"Harvey Van Sickle" wrote in message
...
On 12 Dec 2004, Brian G wrote


wrote in message
...
Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to
climb a ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf


Where in that document does it actually say this?

I can't find it, either.

If that is the case, where is the provision to allow for the use
of ladders in emergencies - is that stated in this document?

AFAICT, all it says is to try to avoid working at height (for
windows, for example, to consider pole-cleaning instead of
ladder-and-rag), but if unavoidable or impractical, employers
will need to supply proper equipment and train people properly in
using that equipment. (Houseowners doing their own work are
expressly excluded.)

As for ladders, the main point seems to be "except in restricted
cases, ladders are for access; they're not working platforms" --
which doesn't strike me as an outrageous starting point.

--
Cheers,
Harvey

Is a self-employed window cleaner going to have to pay to go on a
course to teach himself how not to fall off the ladder?
Hmmmmm.....

Did you read the document? From the scan I made of it, it appeared to
go into relatively good detail about self-employed vs employed regs.

Absolutely not. I thought I'd let someone else do that for me ;-)

And I wonder who paid for this 168 page document to be put
together.

I imagine the cost of having a few panes wiped professionally will
go up even more, and a few infirm people will fall off ladders
when trying to do it themselves because they can't afford the
window cleaner any more.

Possibly.

But are the problems at householder level a valid reason not to make
regs, and thus to let employers -- on a building site, say (where I've
seen this sort of stuff most often) -- get away with "don't be such a
wimp, Freddie: get up your ass up there and clean the effin' thing;
you'll soon get the hang of it if you don't fall off".

One wants a sensible balance between wealth-generating activity and a safe
working environment.
I think the likely result of all this will be that the firms who do
everything by the book will tend to be priced out by the cowboys - who don't
give a monkeys about their workmen.
If the rules are sensible and simple then I would support them. But with the
consultative document at 168 pages, 24 pp of regulations and 50 pp of
"guidance notes", I seriously doubt it. Who can possibly take all that in,
on top of all the other reams of rules businesses have to work through now?
Like so much well-intentioned legislation (Part P anyone?) it will just add
to the pile of regulations that encourage people in the belief that all
safety rules are bunk and can be safely ignored. Counter-productive.

"Steve Walker" wrote
| This is just bringing together parts of existing legislation. ...

"Harvey Van Sickle" wrote
| As for ladders, the main point seems to be "except in restricted
| cases, ladders are for access; they're not working platforms" --
| which doesn't strike me as an outrageous starting point.

IOW, the HSE's 2004 entry in the Cybil Fawlty Awards For Stating The
Bleedin' Obvious.

Owain

In message ,
writes
Got this form another newsgroup.
It appears that as from next summer it could be illegal to climb a
ladder tp clean windows, gutters, etc.
Details are here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf

Is this not aimed at "in a work environment" ?

I had the HSE round this year checking that we weren't e.g. repairing
pcbs while perched atop unsafe platforms 20 ft up in the air etc ...

--
geoff

In article ,
raden writes:

Is this not aimed at "in a work environment" ?

I had the HSE round this year checking that we weren't e.g. repairing
pcbs while perched atop unsafe platforms 20 ft up in the air etc ...

I would imagine they might be concerned with soldering fumes.
Which brings me on to a question which you probably know the
answer to... I noticed Maplin now only stock lead-free solder.
Is this a legal requirement now or in the near future?
I recall hearing about removing lead from the electronics
industry some years back, but I haven't heard anything recently.
Only other clue I've noticed is that manufacturers data sheets
for electronic components have started specifying components
leads are tinned with lead-free solder in some cases.

--
Andrew Gabriel

wrote:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf

I like where on page 7 it says "This consultation exercise is genuinely
that – because of the wide application of the Regulations we need as
much information and comment as possible to make them workable and
relevant to the real risks of working at height."

The implied subtitle being, "unlike most other consultation documents,
we have not already made our minds up while going throught the motions
of consultation for the sake of appearances...."




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Maplin now only stock lead-free solder. Is this a legal requirement now or
in the near future? I recall hearing about removing lead from the
electronics industry some years back, but I haven't heard anything
recently. Only other clue I've noticed is that manufacturers data sheets
for electronic components have started specifying components leads are
tinned with lead-free solder in some cases.

Yes, at work we have gone lead free over the last 12 months. Takes some
getting used to lead free solder after 20 odd years.

Dave

--

Some people use windows, others have a life.

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
raden writes:

Is this not aimed at "in a work environment" ?

I had the HSE round this year checking that we weren't e.g. repairing
pcbs while perched atop unsafe platforms 20 ft up in the air etc ...

I would imagine they might be concerned with soldering fumes.

No, not at all. Even when I was showing off the fume extractor system it
was more a case of "err .. OK"

Which brings me on to a question which you probably know the
answer to... I noticed Maplin now only stock lead-free solder.
Is this a legal requirement now or in the near future?

Not yet, as far as I know. I know there are moves towards it, but, as
you said it's all gone a bit quiet, and, getting through a 500gm reel /
man / month (am I the only person who's ever got through a reel of
solder here ?) I'd better keep my ear to the ground.

I recall hearing about removing lead from the electronics
industry some years back, but I haven't heard anything recently.
Only other clue I've noticed is that manufacturers data sheets
for electronic components have started specifying components
leads are tinned with lead-free solder in some cases.


--
geoff