We had our gas and electricity bills this morning. As we're with
British Gas (please, no diatribes about changing supplier) the period
billed includes the price rises on the 1st of March. To calculate the
bill BG therefore had to estimate the readings on the 1st of March.
Fortunately the previous figures and present figures were both genuine
readings. I hadn't read the meters on the 1st of March myself, but as
my readings are closer together than BGs (23rd Feb, 6th Mar) I can
probably more accurately estimate the actual reading than they.

Of course, their estimate comes out lower than mine, meaning that
according to BG I used less gas and electricity before the price rises
than according to my own calculations.

To cut an exceedingly long story short, after some fiendishly
complicated calculations I worked out that I had been overcharged 37p
for electricity and 59p for gas (give or take a penny due to
differences in rounding strategies). It doesn't sound a lot, but that
96p represents just 7 days between the 1st of March and the meter
reader's figure from the 7th of March.

I'm in two minds whether or not to ring BG up and make a point about
this (I'd probably spend more on the 0845 call), but the thought
occurred to me that we're probably not the only ones. What if all BG
customers have been overcharged? What if it's about a pound for each one
of them? What an easy little money-spinner!

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Making sense of technology: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
.... My mother is NEVER on time! - Worf

Martin Angove wrote:


I'm in two minds whether or not to ring BG up and make a point about
this (I'd probably spend more on the 0845 call), but the thought
occurred to me that we're probably not the only ones. What if all BG
customers have been overcharged? What if it's about a pound for each
one of them? What an easy little money-spinner!

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Making sense of technology: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
... My mother is NEVER on time! - Worf

So whats wrong with complaining online?

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:35:35 GMT, "The3rd Earl Of Derby"
wrote:

|Martin Angove wrote:
|
|
| I'm in two minds whether or not to ring BG up and make a point about
| this (I'd probably spend more on the 0845 call), but the thought
| occurred to me that we're probably not the only ones. What if all BG
| customers have been overcharged? What if it's about a pound for each
| one of them? What an easy little money-spinner!
|
| Hwyl!
|
| M.
|
| --
| Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
| Making sense of technology: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
| ... My mother is NEVER on time! - Worf
|
|So whats wrong with complaining online?

Or even Snail Mail 8-O
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
Freedom of Speech, Expression, Religion, and Democracy are
the keys to Civilization, together with legal acceptance of
Fundamental Human rights.

Martin Angove wrote:
In message ,

I couldn't use the "sumbit your own readings" procedure either as that
doesn't (so far as I can see) allow an intermediate reading to be
submitted.


We were signed up with house.co.uk (British gas) until recently and I'm
sure you could submit a reading almost any time you like. Whether you
can do it *after* a bill with a genuine reading is another matter.

MBQ

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:41:29 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:


I couldn't use the "sumbit your own readings" procedure either as that
doesn't (so far as I can see) allow an intermediate reading to be
submitted.

Put in your own much higher reading, the number of units allocated by
the utility at the lower price will then be proportionally more.

Chances are the price will rocket again (the US has just started
bombing Iraq again big time which is bound to send the price skyward)
Then at some future date when they get a proper reading your next bill
will be lower than it would have been


--

Matt wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:41:29 GMT, Martin Angove
wrote:


I couldn't use the "sumbit your own readings" procedure either as that
doesn't (so far as I can see) allow an intermediate reading to be
submitted.

Put in your own much higher reading, the number of units allocated by
the utility at the lower price will then be proportionally more.

He's already said the latest bill was based on a real meter reading.
You can replace an estimate with a reading but not vice-versa.

MBQ

On 16 Mar 2006 08:16:45 -0800, wrote:

He's already said the latest bill was based on a real meter reading.
You can replace an estimate with a reading but not vice-versa.

Of course you can. Meter readers DO make mistakes. All you have to do
is ring up and tell them the reading is incorrect and give them your
reading. There is nothing to stop the revised reading you submit
being higher.


--

The message
from Matt contains these words:

Of course you can. Meter readers DO make mistakes.

So do some meters. A friend moved into a new house with a card meter
installed. The meter was showing a debit of something like £5000.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Martin Angove wrote:

I'm in two minds whether or not to ring BG up and make a point about
this (I'd probably spend more on the 0845 call), but the thought
occurred to me that we're probably not the only ones. What if all BG
customers have been overcharged? What if it's about a pound for each one
of them? What an easy little money-spinner!

All seems a bit petty IYAM.
how many hours did you spend working that out?

Obviously they have to draw the line somewhere.
What about if you were over-estimated as is usually the way the
guestimates?
I bet you wouldn't have an issue with it then would you.

--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://Water-Rower.co.uk - Worlds best prices on the Worlds best Rower.

In article ,
Martin Angove wrote:
Well Snail Mail would cost a good fraction of my 96p, after you've
accounted for stamp, envelope, paper, printing :-) As for online
complaints, I've never tried BG's system but have not had much joy with
any other large company I've tried. I find it works much better if
there's someone on the end of the phone.

A fax usually works best.

--
*With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , The3rd
Earl Of Derby writes
Martin Angove wrote:


I'm in two minds whether or not to ring BG up and make a point about
this (I'd probably spend more on the 0845 call), but the thought
occurred to me that we're probably not the only ones. What if all BG
customers have been overcharged? What if it's about a pound for each
one of them? What an easy little money-spinner!

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Making sense of technology: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
... My mother is NEVER on time! - Worf

So whats wrong with complaining online?


And how much notice do they take of that??

None - in my experience

--
Richard Faulkner

In message , "Pet @
www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬)" writes
Martin Angove wrote:

I'm in two minds whether or not to ring BG up and make a point about
this (I'd probably spend more on the 0845 call), but the thought
occurred to me that we're probably not the only ones. What if all BG
customers have been overcharged? What if it's about a pound for each one
of them? What an easy little money-spinner!

All seems a bit petty IYAM.
how many hours did you spend working that out?

Obviously they have to draw the line somewhere.
What about if you were over-estimated as is usually the way the
guestimates?
I bet you wouldn't have an issue with it then would you.


But it never seems to work that way.

I think what he was getting at was that ripping off 10 million customers
for £1 is not a bad way of adding £10 million to your bottom line
profit. Firstly, very few will notice, and even fewer will complain, and
even fewer will be able to argue the case well enough, (meter readings
on the day), to win.

--
Richard Faulkner

Richard Faulkner wrote:
In message , The3rd
Earl Of Derby writes
Martin Angove wrote:


I'm in two minds whether or not to ring BG up and make a point about
this (I'd probably spend more on the 0845 call), but the thought
occurred to me that we're probably not the only ones. What if all BG
customers have been overcharged? What if it's about a pound for each
one of them? What an easy little money-spinner!

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Making sense of technology: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
... My mother is NEVER on time! - Worf

So whats wrong with complaining online?


And how much notice do they take of that??

None - in my experience

--
Richard Faulkner

A bit more notice than a phone call in my experience as a phone call is not
logged more than half the time, whereas emails can be kept for future
reference. :-)

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from Matt contains these words:

Of course you can. Meter readers DO make mistakes.

So do some meters. A friend moved into a new house with a card meter
installed. The meter was showing a debit of something like £5000.

Yes, that will be the meter deducting the standing charge from the balance
over time even when it's not being credited. Something similar happened to
us, except the amount was something like £200 in the red. After checking
with the supplier, the ticket sales agent was authorised to let us have £200
in vouchers to reset the balance back to zero, although he didn't have that
many on him right away. We had to call back and he had them for us for the
date we moved in. When I was younger it was so much fun feeding all those £1
vouchers into the meter. Doesn't seem like it would be so much fun now.

Marcus

"Owain" wrote in message
...


Oh, and my account is slightly in credit. They suggested I phone them to
reduce my monthly direct debit. I really can't imagine Grottish Gas doing
that.

BG has for our account.

Mary

Owain

"Richard Faulkner" wrote in message
...

So whats wrong with complaining online?


And how much notice do they take of that??

None - in my experience

That's your experience. Mine is different.

Mary

--
Richard Faulkner

"Richard Faulkner" wrote in message
...
I think what he was getting at was that ripping off 10 million customers
for £1 is not a bad way of adding £10 million to your bottom line profit.
Firstly, very few will notice, and even fewer will complain, and even
fewer will be able to argue the case well enough, (meter readings on the
day), to win.

If people can't be bothered to check their own readings and do something
about it that's their problem.

I've often had lower estimates than the meter suggests. Should I complain?

It's swings and roundabouts. BG - and (I believe) other utility
companiesdon't deliberately overestimate.

Mary

--
Richard Faulkner

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 19:52:35 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Richard Faulkner" wrote in message
...
I think what he was getting at was that ripping off 10 million customers
for £1 is not a bad way of adding £10 million to your bottom line
profit.
Firstly, very few will notice, and even fewer will complain, and even
fewer will be able to argue the case well enough, (meter readings on the
day), to win.

If people can't be bothered to check their own readings and do something
about it that's their problem.

I've often had lower estimates than the meter suggests. Should I complain?

It's swings and roundabouts. BG - and (I believe) other utility
companiesdon't deliberately overestimate.

Mary

Are you sure, Mary?

Of course I'm not SURE. I said that I believed that. Nobody can be sure- not
even you.

I've experienced that with BG, Npower and Powergen, sometimes to the
tune of 20% overpayment over the billing year.

Serves you right for switching and not keeping a stable record!

I'm not in the business of lending money to utility companies -
especially not at zero interest.

I therefore have two simple rules

1) I don't allow them to set the direct debit amount or to change it.
There are a few who will do so as a matter of course. I won't do
business with them.

You have the choice.

2) I calculate the next year's usage as being the same as the past
year's usage, apply any price increases and work out a projected cost.
I then offer them no more than 85% of that spread over the year, thus
pretty much guaranteeing that I owe them money at the end of the year.
Finally, I carry forward the shortfall into the next year and factor
that into the cost and offer no more than 85% again.

That means that you're not paying what you owe. That's no fairer than paying
more.

I sometimes get squeaks from them and they have to go and get approval
from the supervisor. A couple of times I've had to discuss with the
supervisor. However, they are often on bonuses or targets for
customer retention. I only once met with a refusal to co-operate,
and that company lost the business.

I have never had that problem. But I suspect that my attitude isn't the same
as yours.

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 20:59:11 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


It's swings and roundabouts. BG - and (I believe) other utility
companiesdon't deliberately overestimate.

Mary

Are you sure, Mary?

Of course I'm not SURE. I said that I believed that. Nobody can be sure- not
even you.

I've experienced that with BG, Npower and Powergen, sometimes to the
tune of 20% overpayment over the billing year.

Serves you right for switching and not keeping a stable record!

These were each over a period of a couple of years, so there was a
pattern.



I'm not in the business of lending money to utility companies -
especially not at zero interest.

I therefore have two simple rules

1) I don't allow them to set the direct debit amount or to change it.
There are a few who will do so as a matter of course. I won't do
business with them.

You have the choice.

2) I calculate the next year's usage as being the same as the past
year's usage, apply any price increases and work out a projected cost.
I then offer them no more than 85% of that spread over the year, thus
pretty much guaranteeing that I owe them money at the end of the year.
Finally, I carry forward the shortfall into the next year and factor
that into the cost and offer no more than 85% again.

That means that you're not paying what you owe. That's no fairer than paying
more.

I pay what I owe, it's simply a little later than the normal billing
period. If they paid me interest on overpayments at the end of the
year, then I would have no problem in overpaying them early.
Unfortunately they don't.


I sometimes get squeaks from them and they have to go and get approval
from the supervisor. A couple of times I've had to discuss with the
supervisor. However, they are often on bonuses or targets for
customer retention. I only once met with a refusal to co-operate,
and that company lost the business.

I have never had that problem. But I suspect that my attitude isn't the same
as yours.

Well.... if I hadn't found this overpayment practice happening
consistently, I wouldn't have bothered to make an issue of it.
However, the amounts were quite large and no offer of interest on the
amounts was made. Therefore, I think that it's perfectly reasonable
in a subsequent year to underpay them for a period in order to recover
the lost interest. Taken over a period of a couple of years it works
out evens.


--

..andy


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Serves you right for switching and not keeping a stable record!

These were each over a period of a couple of years, so there was a
pattern.

I meant your record with the suppliers:-)

....

Well.... if I hadn't found this overpayment practice happening
consistently, I wouldn't have bothered to make an issue of it.
However, the amounts were quite large and no offer of interest on the
amounts was made. Therefore, I think that it's perfectly reasonable
in a subsequent year to underpay them for a period in order to recover
the lost interest. Taken over a period of a couple of years it works
out evens.

Perhaps the companies work on the same basis!

Mary

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 20:41:46 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:


|I've experienced that with BG, Npower and Powergen, sometimes to the
|tune of 20% overpayment over the billing year.
|
|I'm not in the business of lending money to utility companies -
|especially not at zero interest.

I was once long ago, sort of, associated with an easy pay system run by the
then nationalised Electricity outfit. "Pay however much we tell you per
month and whatever you use we will only charge you that amount" I did
some sums on the bills, and found that they were paying a quarter in
**ADVANCE**. So you in effect lent them over 1/4 of the yearly bill at
zero interest.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
Freedom of Speech, Expression, Religion, and Democracy are
the keys to Civilization, together with legal acceptance of
Fundamental Human rights.

On 2006-03-17, Andy Hall wrote:

I've experienced that with BG, Npower and Powergen, sometimes to the
tune of 20% overpayment over the billing year.

I'm not in the business of lending money to utility companies -
especially not at zero interest.

You may well be losing money by doing this, especially with the
recent large increases in energy costs, here's why.

If you pay just what you are (rightfully) billed for the energy
you have used, you will start paying for more expensive energy
right away. I have just got my latest bill and the supplier has
applied the rate increase pro-rata, as it took effect part way
through my billing period.
However, if you had over-estimated your usage in the past, you'd
be "in credit" and would therefore have paid for more energy at
the _lower_ rate than you had actually used at this rate (and
therefore paid for less at the higher rate).

Obviously this method, which is similar to "buying futures" in
energy, only works if energy prices are rising. If they are falling
you should endeavour to under-estimate your usage.

HTH

Pete

--
.................................................. .........................
.. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
.. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
.. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................

The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

I've often had lower estimates than the meter suggests. Should I complain?

I don't complain, but I certainly phone them to correct it. Saves nasty
surprises later.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

The message
from Dave Fawthrop contains these words:

I was once long ago, sort of, associated with an easy pay system run by the
then nationalised Electricity outfit. "Pay however much we tell you per
month and whatever you use we will only charge you that amount" I did
some sums on the bills, and found that they were paying a quarter in
**ADVANCE**. So you in effect lent them over 1/4 of the yearly bill at
zero interest.

Nobody ever said they were stupid!

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:18:46 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
. ..

Serves you right for switching and not keeping a stable record!

These were each over a period of a couple of years, so there was a
pattern.

I meant your record with the suppliers:-)

Oh well...... I don't really care about that. They seem to be
avaricious for my business. :-)

But your wanting to penalise the supplier to save paying abit of interest
means that other consumers are subsidising you.

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

I've often had lower estimates than the meter suggests. Should I
complain?

I don't complain, but I certainly phone them to correct it. Saves nasty
surprises later.

Well, we don't get surprises because we pay by DD and any annual adjustments
are made later. Sometimes it's in our favour, sometimes not.

I'm essentially idle, my life's too important to spend time on calculations
and petty savings.

I read today that most people don't spend more than 30 minutes preparing
their evening meal. The time saved is spent watching TV cooks (and other
programmes of course), it seems ... I was very amused by that.

I prefer not to live life vicariously - in all aspects.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 09:40:04 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:18:46 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Serves you right for switching and not keeping a stable record!

These were each over a period of a couple of years, so there was a
pattern.

I meant your record with the suppliers:-)

Oh well...... I don't really care about that. They seem to be
avaricious for my business. :-)

But your wanting to penalise the supplier to save paying abit of interest
means that other consumers are subsidising you.


That becomes a circular argument, though. I could argue that if
everybody handled the supplier in this way, that this would not
happen. It might cause the supplier to address the issue and
operate in a more honest way rather than expecting customers to
subsidise his cash flow.


--

..andy


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The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

I'm essentially idle, my life's too important to spend time on calculations
and petty savings.

Oooh, it takes me a whole minute and a half to read the meter, phone the
number and enter the reading on the keypad and hang up again.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 09:45:23 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

I've often had lower estimates than the meter suggests. Should I
complain?

I don't complain, but I certainly phone them to correct it. Saves nasty
surprises later.

Well, we don't get surprises because we pay by DD and any annual adjustments
are made later. Sometimes it's in our favour, sometimes not.

I'm essentially idle, my life's too important to spend time on calculations
and petty savings.

I completely agree. I spend about 15 mins on this twice a year and
make a supplier change if there is a substantial saving to be made.
Typically, given a certain pattern of use which doesn't vary, there is
not much point once one has found a well matched tariff.

I found yesterday that theoretically I could save about £20 a year by
switching from Powergen to NPower. However, from past experience,
Npower has inept customer service and regularly made errors of
reporting and calculation, so are not worth the maintenance overhead.

It is another reason for paying short of their request - gives me a
better negotiating position in the event of errors and poor customer
service.


I read today that most people don't spend more than 30 minutes preparing
their evening meal. The time saved is spent watching TV cooks (and other
programmes of course), it seems ... I was very amused by that.

Given the packaged rubbish that supermarkets sell, I am surprised that
most manage this long.


I prefer not to live life vicariously - in all aspects.

Where did the vicar come into this?


--

..andy


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"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

I'm essentially idle, my life's too important to spend time on
calculations
and petty savings.

Oooh, it takes me a whole minute and a half to read the meter, phone the
number and enter the reading on the keypad and hang up again.

Tell andy that, he's the one who seems to spend his life *calculating* the
petty savings. I didn't talk about reading the meter- I have done it in the
past - as I've said before. I just haven't worked out what it would 'save'
me if I did or didn't report the difference between an estimated reading and
the actual one.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...


I completely agree. I spend about 15 mins on this twice a year

You've spent a lot longer than that telling us about it :-)



I prefer not to live life vicariously - in all aspects.

Where did the vicar come into this?

Spend as much time looking in a dictionary as you do on your calculations
and venting against 'jobsworths' and you'll find out - and increase your
word power.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 12:09:39 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .


I completely agree. I spend about 15 mins on this twice a year

You've spent a lot longer than that telling us about it :-)

True, but it's all part of life's rich tapestry.




I prefer not to live life vicariously - in all aspects.

Where did the vicar come into this?

Spend as much time looking in a dictionary as you do on your calculations
and venting against 'jobsworths' and you'll find out - and increase your
word power.


There's very little calculation time. However, the crusade against
jobsworths is a divine mission.....


--

..andy


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

There's very little calculation time. However, the crusade against
jobsworths is a divine mission.....

No, Andy, you're not divine. Come down to Earth.