On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:46:59 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:


Bicycle and milk float will both get you from A to B?

Gave up on bicycles years ago but my milk float gets me (and large
and heavy loads) from A to B very well. For some odd reason it has
the added advantage that the roads are rarely busy when I use it and
I always have clear space ahead.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 01:53:07 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:27:01 +0000, Peter Parry wrote:


In this case you don't get the best having paid for it. If you want
it for "lifestyle" reasons then of course logic and cost is
irrelevant. If you want to buy a cooker then both price and
performance are usually important factors.

Thats a bit like saying that if all you want is a splash of color on the
wall,£80,0000 for a Tissot is a waste of money.

Of course it is, a print will do just as well. If on the other hand
you find the works of JJJ compelling and have a deep desire to own
one only an original will do. People buy Agas for similarly
subjective reasons such as style, social cachet etc not for
objective ones such as their ability as cookers.

Agas are not JUST cookers. They are heaters of a certain character as well.

I don't deny they have character. I have owned many devices with
"character" over the years and been very glad to see the back of most
of them.

It is simply ridiculous to compare running costs with a gas cooker.

If you buy them for their looks or as a status symbol or for any
other reason unrelated to cooking you are absolutely right.

6500 is a fair price for an installed CH sytem let alone adding a cooker on
teh price :-)

If you got an installed central heating system as well as an Aga for
that price you would be right.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 08:54:22 +0000, Peter Parry
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:46:59 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:


Bicycle and milk float will both get you from A to B?

Gave up on bicycles years ago but my milk float gets me (and large
and heavy loads) from A to B very well.

Provided that A and B are not too far apart and it was charged up the
night before? ;-)

For some odd reason it has
the added advantage that the roads are rarely busy when I use it and
I always have clear space ahead.

That I can imagine.

--

..andy

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

....

I really don't care. For the umpteenth time, I know what I have
measured and I know the costings that I get that result from it.

You're wasting your life, Andy, he's not going to believe your experience.

I do, but I believe my own experiences and have had run ins with those who
don't believe me. That's their problem.

Interesting though that they then expect us to believe what they say which
is based on their own experience ...

....

Cooking between 1 and 3 meals per day from basic ingredients does not
strike me as unusual.

Of course it isn't, I do it. But that's just my experience so it must be
wrong :-)

Mary


--

.andy

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 06:59:26 +0000 (UTC) Edward W. Thompson wrote :
Are you suggesting that fan ovens discharge the hot air from the oven
into the surroundings? I don't think so. I only have experience of
one fan oven and it certainly does not discharge hot air into the
surroundings.

That was true of my old eye-level oven but that had lots of space above
it behind a grille. My new under-worktop built in oven has a fan to
circulate hot air round the oven itself and a second fan that draws air
over the casing and out the front. The latter keeps running for some
while after you turn the oven off.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.12 released 8 Dec 2005]

wrote:
Any conventional cooker is likely to be much much cheaper to run than a
Rayburn - mainly because you can switch it off when not in use.
S'obvious really! Also a normal cooker is much more practical and
versatile than Rayburn/Aga etc. If you really like the "Aga" style of
cooking then you can mimic it easily on a normal cooker - but without
having to buy special pans etc. Not sure why you'd bother however.
The good news is: you can probably sell it 2nd hand and get most/all of
the price of a proper cooker.

Interesting thread this. To get back to the start and answer the OPs
query: thought I would add to my first thoughts - all the above I
would still say, but I would add - "on the other hand by all means keep
the Rayburn if you really really want to as a few people seem get
really hooked on them and you too might appreciate whatever it is they
get out of them inspite of the high running costs (but I can't see it
myself!)".

cheers
Jacob

"Edward W. Thompson" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 02:04:25 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 22:12:21 +0000, Peter Parry wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:23:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

The fan blows it out. In a fan blown oven.

On the pop again?

Nope. All the fan blown ovens I have had generate a hot draught out of a
vent somewhere.

Are you suggesting that fan ovens discharge the hot air from the oven
into the surroundings? I don't think so. I only have experience of
one fan oven and it certainly does not discharge hot air into the
surroundings. If it did why wouldn't the surroundings (kitchen)
temperature tend to rise to the temperature of the oven and the
kitchen be filled with oven fumes? What is wrong with this equation?

I certainly get steam coming from the grille at the back of my cooker when
the fan assisted oven is on. It's not sealed.

But I get a lot more from the door opening when I open the door, presumably
because it's being blown out :-)

There was always some steam from my gas oven when I had one, there was an
opening on the hob to allow it to escape. It's no bigdeal, is it? I don't
wantmy oven cooked food to be steamed or pressure cooked.

Mary

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 02:02:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:54:15 +0000, Andy Wade wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

But what energy costs? Agas are MORE efficient than CH boilers.

That's complete nonsense, surely? How can an open-flued non-condensing
appliance possibly compete with a modern condensing gas boiler?

Quite easily. It uses a long flue path to extract the heat down to an
effkux temperature up the flue of about 35C.

With CH water running at higher than that, even in a codensinng boiler,
more heat has to go out of the boiler flue than the aga flue.

The ONLY thing that marks boiler efficiency is how hot the exhaust gases
are when they leave the house and go through the insulation.

WRONG. It's also the volume and composition of exhaust gases (latent
heat), plus losses to the heated space caused by any ventilation
required by the boiler.

Do Agas condense water out of the exhaust gases to recover latent
heat? I think not!!!

Plus the required vent (sized for worst case operation) and the
required draught diverter do a nice job of draining warm air out of
the room, THAT is why the exhause gases are cool!

cheers,
Pete.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:11:07 +0000, Peter Parry
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 01:53:07 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:27:01 +0000, Peter Parry wrote:


In this case you don't get the best having paid for it. If you want
it for "lifestyle" reasons then of course logic and cost is
irrelevant. If you want to buy a cooker then both price and
performance are usually important factors.

Thats a bit like saying that if all you want is a splash of color on the
wall,£80,0000 for a Tissot is a waste of money.

Of course it is, a print will do just as well. If on the other hand
you find the works of JJJ compelling and have a deep desire to own
one only an original will do. People buy Agas for similarly
subjective reasons such as style, social cachet etc not for
objective ones such as their ability as cookers.


Wrong. It's for all of those reasons.


Agas are not JUST cookers. They are heaters of a certain character as well.

I don't deny they have character. I have owned many devices with
"character" over the years and been very glad to see the back of most
of them.

Does your milk float have character? :-)


--

..andy

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Ophelia wrote:
Since when have haggis-hunters been sufficient gentlemen to not shoot
in the back?
Well Owain.. I don't actually know any haggis-hunters.. I thought you
might know Don't they do much of that over by the Thistle Centre?

Not since they built the new bit with Primark in. Rumours of feral
haggis roaming through the Forthbank former military buildings are so
far unconfirmed.

So far as I know they have been spotted in Mattelan in Coatbridge

Ophelia wrote:
"Owain" wrote...
Ophelia wrote:
[ nothing worthwhile ]

Might be a good time for you two to take this embarrassing
old rubbish to e-mail.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:43:59 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


You're wasting your life, Andy, he's not going to believe your experience.

Not when set against a much larger, objective and measured body of
evidence which contradicts it. Only a fool would do so.

Interesting though that they then expect us to believe what they say which
is based on their own experience ...

I don't expect anyone to do any such thing, some are too silly to
understand that.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:39:21 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:


Does your milk float have character? :-)

Oh indeed it does, all bad - and I look forward to the day when I can
either modify it to make it more efficient and give it a suspension
system or trade it in for something with suspension.

Its great advantage is partly artificial, nulabor has decided it
needs neither an MOT nor road tax which given the small mileage it
does is very useful and partly that there is no practical
alternative. I occasionally need to move bulky and heavy objects
locally. The purchase and running cost of my milk float makes it
very much cheaper than any other alternative. It is also a pig to
drive. Given my requirements this latter deficiency is (just)
acceptable.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:09:05 +0000, Peter Parry
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:39:21 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:


Does your milk float have character? :-)

Oh indeed it does, all bad - and I look forward to the day when I can
either modify it to make it more efficient and give it a suspension
system or trade it in for something with suspension.

I'm surprised they don't have suspension.

I always thought that the point of an electric milk float was so that
they can go around in the wee small hours without waking people up.
However, with no suspension, one would think that the bottles would
rattle.


Its great advantage is partly artificial, nulabor has decided it
needs neither an MOT nor road tax which given the small mileage it
does is very useful and partly that there is no practical
alternative.

Not even a pickup truck?

I occasionally need to move bulky and heavy objects
locally. The purchase and running cost of my milk float makes it
very much cheaper than any other alternative. It is also a pig to
drive. Given my requirements this latter deficiency is (just)
acceptable.

Hmm... I didn't know that it didn't need to be taxed.

What kind of licence do you need and what about insurance?


--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:
Cooking between 1 and 3 meals per day from basic ingredients does not
strike me as unusual.


Hmm. This thread is quite intriguing. We have various MEN arguing about
the merits( or otherwise) of cooking in a particular manner. When do
these people find time to do any real diy? Cooking is for women, it's
something some of them do really well, particularly when they know their
place in the scheme of things.

Incidentally, I always understood that traditional Yorkshire non suet
puddings were stodgy, is it only in recent years that they have become
crispy and light? The suet pudding I used to get in Yorkshire was always
totally solid, not a scrap of air in the pastry, I was informed that
this was the correct way to build up a reasonable waist line to allow
lots of hard work. I write only as a food consumer. LOL

Personally I know of very few men(thinking more about it, NONE) who
cook even one meal a day from basic ingredients. A few women may do so,
but only on occasional days. After all, this is why the fish and chip
shop was invented, together with all the modern derivatives.

I am not an Aga person, I find them warm to stand beside in winter, but
a bit of a pain to use in the real world. Rather like the coal fired
stoves of my childhood. ( Which were a definite fire hazard to small
children as I can testify from family history.) However, if you do want
one of these objects, buying one second hand can be a good economic
proposition, with a few years of inflation, you can then sell it on to
another mug and probably show a profit. Progressing to buying a proper
cooker with an eye level oven and grill, and not a style, I would regard
as a sign of great experience and maturity.

Regards
Capitol

Andy Hall wrote:

Does your milk float have character? :-)

Oh indeed it does, all bad - and I look forward to the day when I can
either modify it to make it more efficient and give it a suspension
system or trade it in for something with suspension.


I'm surprised they don't have suspension.

Mine has suspension -- whacking great leaf springs -- but no shocks,
which I suspect is what Peter meant. It does make tackling "traffic
calming" an interesting enterprise.


I occasionally need to move bulky and heavy objects
locally. The purchase and running cost of my milk float makes it
very much cheaper than any other alternative. It is also a pig to
drive. Given my requirements this latter deficiency is (just)
acceptable.


Hmm... I didn't know that it didn't need to be taxed.

What kind of licence do you need and what about insurance?

They *are* taxed, but at a rate of £0.00. You can drive them on a normal
licence and my insurance is around £40 (TPO, but allows for 7 passengers
and 3 drivers).

Douglas de Lacey

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Andy Hall wrote:
Cooking between 1 and 3 meals per day from basic ingredients does not
strike me as unusual.
Hmm. This thread is quite intriguing. We have various MEN arguing
about the merits( or otherwise) of cooking in a particular manner.
When do these people find time to do any real diy? Cooking is for
women, it's something some of them do really well, particularly when
they know their place in the scheme of things.

Oi!

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:23:46 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:09:05 +0000, Peter Parry
wrote:

Oh indeed it does, all bad - and I look forward to the day when I can
either modify it to make it more efficient and give it a suspension
system or trade it in for something with suspension.

I'm surprised they don't have suspension.

All they have is a set of leaf springs (no dampers) which move about
an inch when 3 ton is put on the back.

I always thought that the point of an electric milk float was so that
they can go around in the wee small hours without waking people up.

They go very slowly :-)

However, with no suspension, one would think that the bottles would
rattle.

They do if you try anything over walking pace.

Its great advantage is partly artificial, nulabor has decided it
needs neither an MOT nor road tax which given the small mileage it
does is very useful and partly that there is no practical
alternative.

Not even a pickup truck?

Not when you compare the cost.

I occasionally need to move bulky and heavy objects
locally. The purchase and running cost of my milk float makes it
very much cheaper than any other alternative. It is also a pig to
drive. Given my requirements this latter deficiency is (just)
acceptable.

Hmm... I didn't know that it didn't need to be taxed.

They have a tax disc - but it is issued free, much to the confusion
of many post office staff.

What kind of licence do you need and what about insurance?

Car licence and fully comprehensive insurance is about GBP70 per
year. The combination of a need for short and infrequent journeys,
the type of load and the very low standing cost make it ideal.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On 17 Jan 2006 05:05:24 -0800, wrote:

wrote:
Any conventional cooker is likely to be much much cheaper to run than a
Rayburn - mainly because you can switch it off when not in use.
S'obvious really! Also a normal cooker is much more practical and
versatile than Rayburn/Aga etc. If you really like the "Aga" style of
cooking then you can mimic it easily on a normal cooker - but without
having to buy special pans etc. Not sure why you'd bother however.
The good news is: you can probably sell it 2nd hand and get most/all of
the price of a proper cooker.

Interesting thread this. To get back to the start and answer the OPs
query: thought I would add to my first thoughts - all the above I
would still say, but I would add - "on the other hand by all means keep
the Rayburn if you really really want to as a few people seem get
really hooked on them and you too might appreciate whatever it is they
get out of them inspite of the high running costs (but I can't see it
myself!)".

cheers
Jacob

I actually did some tests on the aga with an oven thermometer.
Wih all hobs closed it was about 210C.

After an hours cooking on both hobs, it was 195C.

7% drop.

Its an oil fired aga with thermosat controlled burner.

What this shows is that

- yes, flat out it cannot maintain oven temp with both lids up but
- since it takes 4 hours to heat up, even with no burner on, it probably
takes 4 hrs to cool down..and an hours hob cookng with a modulating burner
is not really going to affect cooking temps enough to be noticeable.

I THINK the oil flow rate on 'full' is about 3x what it is on 'low' which
implies that its probably only about 1.5KW into the ovens, max. As I would
assume that 'low' oil flow is less than what it does at 'idle'

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:06:32 GMT, Ophelia wrote:

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Andy Hall wrote:
Cooking between 1 and 3 meals per day from basic ingredients does not
strike me as unusual.
Hmm. This thread is quite intriguing. We have various MEN arguing
about the merits( or otherwise) of cooking in a particular manner.
When do these people find time to do any real diy? Cooking is for
women, it's something some of them do really well, particularly when
they know their place in the scheme of things.

Oi!

The reason we have time to do the coooking, and chatter heare, is because
we are so ****ing GOOD at DIY that OUR stuff doesn't need constant
maintenance.

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:38:45 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


I actually did some tests on the aga with an oven thermometer.
Wih all hobs closed it was about 210C.

After an hours cooking on both hobs, it was 195C.

7% drop.

Its an oil fired aga with thermosat controlled burner.

What this shows is that

- yes, flat out it cannot maintain oven temp with both lids up but
- since it takes 4 hours to heat up, even with no burner on, it probably
takes 4 hrs to cool down..and an hours hob cookng with a modulating burner
is not really going to affect cooking temps enough to be noticeable.

I THINK the oil flow rate on 'full' is about 3x what it is on 'low' which
implies that its probably only about 1.5KW into the ovens, max. As I would
assume that 'low' oil flow is less than what it does at 'idle'


I've measured the gas one and it's able to regulate even more tightly
than the 7% that you got..


--

..andy