Hello,

I am looking for a little bit of advice on my central heating system. I
have just bought a small 2 bedroom terraced house and have been given a
bit of doom and gloom by British Gas (I know maybe not the most popular
people on here but I am a total novice when it comes to central heating
and hot water supplies as this is my first house.

The system is approximately 10 years old running off an Ideal Elan
NF230 boiler supplying a Thermal Storage Cylinder (set at 75c). It's
got a small copper header/expansion tank above the cylinder with a
copper lid, 2 pumps, and a Room Thermostat/programmer in the lounge.

I have done a bit of digging around on these and if I understand it
correctly, the boiler heats the water in cylinder which is used to feed
the radiators, the 2 pumps are connected one to the boiler feed and one
to the radiator feed. The HW is then fed at mains pressure through a
heat exchanger/coil inside the tank to heat and passed to the outlets.

The central heating system is all non-barrier plastic pipe and of
course is original with the house except for pipe work around the
cylinder which appears to be copper, according to the British Gas
engineer the plastic pipe (and a few pages I have looked at on the
internet) is a very bad thing[tm].

He basically said that the system is a poor design, with a low powered
boiler (which is probably fair point, the maximum flow seems to be 80c
where as the tank wants to be 75c so there is not much redundancy
there). So its running at full kilt. He said the plastic pipe will
allow lots of oxygen in the system to corrode the radiators (I have had
2 off with the help of my dad and they were full of black cr*p but none
seem to be holed).

He said what I will find is that my HW is not great when the heating is
running because the water from the cylinder is being cycled to the rads
which makes sense. I have not moved in yet, as I am decorating the
place first. He also said its very prone to limescale (we do live in a
hard water area).

They did agree to look after my boiler and system on HomeCare 200 but
obviously had a good winge about how poor the system is and that I
should think about a PowerFlush (which I can ill afford to be quite
honest). He admitted I was getting circulation in the CH and so there
was no blockage, and it should be working so agreed to cover it. He
even went to far as to say that he would not have bought the house
purely because of the central heating :O I was a bit taken aback by
that, surely its not that bad?

So without changing the whole system, pipework etc etc I am planing to
do the following;

Drain the system fully down and flush out the radiators as much as I
can by running water through them. They all heat up well except the big
rad in the lounge which has a cold spot at the bottom (which I suspect
is full of crap).

Then use Purimachos Flushex to see if I can clean the system further,
before adding some Purimachos Protex Inhibitor to a fresh filled
system.

What do people think? Should I really think about replacing the system
if it's working? As I have said I have not moved in yet so not
spending a lot of time there so the system is on low. I suppose until I
move in I wont see how good the CH and HW supply is although I suspect
as a single bloke living there alone its going to be adequate.

Thanks very much for everyone's time, patience and any advice.
(Thanks also to Ed Sirett for pointing me to here and his response)

Mike

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 23:38:57 -0800, Mike wrote:

Hello,

I am looking for a little bit of advice on my central heating system. I
have just bought a small 2 bedroom terraced house and have been given a
bit of doom and gloom by British Gas (I know maybe not the most popular
people on here but I am a total novice when it comes to central heating
and hot water supplies as this is my first house.

The system is approximately 10 years old running off an Ideal Elan
NF230 boiler supplying a Thermal Storage Cylinder (set at 75c). It's
got a small copper header/expansion tank above the cylinder with a
copper lid, 2 pumps, and a Room Thermostat/programmer in the lounge.

I have done a bit of digging around on these and if I understand it
correctly, the boiler heats the water in cylinder which is used to feed
the radiators, the 2 pumps are connected one to the boiler feed and one
to the radiator feed. The HW is then fed at mains pressure through a
heat exchanger/coil inside the tank to heat and passed to the outlets.

The central heating system is all non-barrier plastic pipe and of
course is original with the house except for pipe work around the
cylinder which appears to be copper, according to the British Gas
engineer the plastic pipe (and a few pages I have looked at on the
internet) is a very bad thing[tm].

He basically said that the system is a poor design, with a low powered
boiler (which is probably fair point, the maximum flow seems to be 80c
where as the tank wants to be 75c so there is not much redundancy
there). So its running at full kilt. He said the plastic pipe will
allow lots of oxygen in the system to corrode the radiators (I have had
2 off with the help of my dad and they were full of black cr*p but none
seem to be holed).

He said what I will find is that my HW is not great when the heating is
running because the water from the cylinder is being cycled to the rads
which makes sense. I have not moved in yet, as I am decorating the
place first. He also said its very prone to limescale (we do live in a
hard water area).

They did agree to look after my boiler and system on HomeCare 200 but
obviously had a good winge about how poor the system is and that I
should think about a PowerFlush (which I can ill afford to be quite
honest). He admitted I was getting circulation in the CH and so there
was no blockage, and it should be working so agreed to cover it. He
even went to far as to say that he would not have bought the house
purely because of the central heating :O I was a bit taken aback by
that, surely its not that bad?

So without changing the whole system, pipework etc etc I am planing to
do the following;

Drain the system fully down and flush out the radiators as much as I
can by running water through them. They all heat up well except the big
rad in the lounge which has a cold spot at the bottom (which I suspect
is full of crap).

Then use Purimachos Flushex to see if I can clean the system further,
before adding some Purimachos Protex Inhibitor to a fresh filled
system.

What do people think? Should I really think about replacing the system
if it's working? As I have said I have not moved in yet so not
spending a lot of time there so the system is on low. I suppose until I
move in I wont see how good the CH and HW supply is although I suspect
as a single bloke living there alone its going to be adequate.

Thanks very much for everyone's time, patience and any advice.
(Thanks also to Ed Sirett for pointing me to here and his response)

I think things may not be anywhere near as bad a BG are suggesting.
What is the current boiler power?
Around 10kW or 35 kBtu/hr should be fine.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Mike wrote:

He basically said that the system is a poor design, with a low powered
boiler (which is probably fair point, the maximum flow seems to be 80c
where as the tank wants to be 75c so there is not much redundancy
there). So its running at full kilt.

I thought most boilers (bad name I know) tended to max out at around 80c
or so - or at least, their thermostat turns the burner off at that
point. Do boilers really go above that temp?

D

I really think you're better off to move in and see what happens but Power Flushing is really terribly straightforward - and there is absolutely no need to pay the £650 +VAT that BG want for doing it.
I hired a Power flush pump and chemicals(bought those!!) for the grand sum of £95 and followed the very detailed instructions to the letter. Took me 3 hours and it has given my CH and HW a new lease fo life. BG had told me that the boiler was irrepairable and could not stop it "kettling". Now it's a smooth and quiet as new and although it wont last forever (its 18 years old) I have bought time to work out what to do when im ready to replace it. I hired my unit from Kamco in St Albans, herts - sure there is soemwhere near you that can do the same

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:47:04 +0000, alexbartman
wrote:


I really think you're better off to move in and see what happens but
Power Flushing is really terribly straightforward - and there is
absolutely no need to pay the £650 +VAT that BG want for doing it.
I hired a Power flush pump and chemicals(bought those!!) for the grand
sum of £95 and followed the very detailed instructions to the letter.
Took me 3 hours and it has given my CH and HW a new lease fo life. BG
had told me that the boiler was irrepairable and could not stop it
"kettling". Now it's a smooth and quiet as new and although it wont
last forever (its 18 years old) I have bought time to work out what to
do when im ready to replace it. I hired my unit from Kamco in St
Albans, herts - sure there is soemwhere near you that can do the same

My boiler is actually older than yours and was also kettling quite
badly. I used the Screwfix offering for cleaning the system, left it
in there for the maximum 5weeks and then injected the Fernox treatment
once that was washed out.

The system has been as quiet as a mouse this winter and I expect to
get a few more years out of it yet. Many of these so called engineers
are no more than salesmen or more acurately, conmen.

Andy

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:29:06 +0000, David Hearn wrote:

Mike wrote:

He basically said that the system is a poor design, with a low powered
boiler (which is probably fair point, the maximum flow seems to be 80c
where as the tank wants to be 75c so there is not much redundancy
there). So its running at full kilt.

I thought most boilers (bad name I know) tended to max out at around 80c
or so - or at least, their thermostat turns the burner off at that
point. Do boilers really go above that temp?

Yes if the only thermostat fails.
Otherwise it depends.
A sophisticated modern boiler that is in calibration might go to 82
flat out with an option for 87 (useful if the radiators are
undersized).

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Hi,

Thanks all for the replies, the boiler is only 8.8kw and 30,000 BTU/H
if that changes things?

Incidently, my boiler does kettle a bit but isnt too bad, we will see
if the flush and treatment helps.

I have noticed a few of the radiator valves are weaping a bit so I need
to look at that too.

I will try the screwfix route for flush and treat before going the
whole hog on hiring the kit to do a DIY powerflush I think.

Is it ok to replace the radiator valves? My dad is pretty confident we
can do it easily enough and I want to put two TRVs on the bedroom
radiators if I can anyway. So while I am draining the whole system it
may be just as well to replace the weapy valves.

Is there anything I need to know about TRVs, Valves with respect to my
10mm plastic pipe or should they (screwfix, toolstation ones) be ok to
fit?

My dad has fitted my TRVs on 10mm metal pipe but he is little unsure of
the plastic type.

Thanks again,

Mike

In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 23:38:57 -0800, Mike wrote:

Hello,

I am looking for a little bit of advice on my central heating system.

.... ...


What do people think? Should I really think about replacing the system
if it's working? As I have said I have not moved in yet so not
spending a lot of time there so the system is on low. I suppose until I
move in I wont see how good the CH and HW supply is although I suspect
as a single bloke living there alone its going to be adequate.

Thanks very much for everyone's time, patience and any advice.
(Thanks also to Ed Sirett for pointing me to here and his response)

I think things may not be anywhere near as bad a BG are suggesting.
What is the current boiler power?
Around 10kW or 35 kBtu/hr should be fine.

Ed, would you say that the person who said "the plastic pipe will allow
lots of oxygen in the system to corrode the radiators " is telling pinky
porkies or blatant lies ?

OP - just step away from British Gas ... quickly


--
geoff

In message , alexbartman
writes

I really think you're better off to move in and see what happens but
Power Flushing is really terribly straightforward - and there is
absolutely no need to pay the £650 +VAT that BG want for doing it.
I hired a Power flush pump and chemicals(bought those!!) for the grand
sum of £95 and followed the very detailed instructions to the letter.
Took me 3 hours and it has given my CH and HW a new lease fo life. BG
had told me that the boiler was irrepairable and could not stop it
"kettling". Now it's a smooth and quiet as new and although it wont
last forever (its 18 years old) I have bought time to work out what to
do when im ready to replace it. I hired my unit from Kamco in St
Albans, herts - sure there is soemwhere near you that can do the same


Kamco also sell sludge buster - which might do the job without the need
of a power flush

--
geoff

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:56:43 +0000, raden wrote:

In message , alexbartman
writes

I really think you're better off to move in and see what happens but
Power Flushing is really terribly straightforward - and there is
absolutely no need to pay the £650 +VAT that BG want for doing it.
I hired a Power flush pump and chemicals(bought those!!) for the grand
sum of £95 and followed the very detailed instructions to the letter.
Took me 3 hours and it has given my CH and HW a new lease fo life. BG
had told me that the boiler was irrepairable and could not stop it
"kettling". Now it's a smooth and quiet as new and although it wont
last forever (its 18 years old) I have bought time to work out what to
do when im ready to replace it. I hired my unit from Kamco in St
Albans, herts - sure there is soemwhere near you that can do the same


Kamco also sell sludge buster - which might do the job without the need
of a power flush

You put the VCW back or was this from earlier?

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:46:21 +0000, raden wrote:

In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 23:38:57 -0800, Mike wrote:

Hello,

I am looking for a little bit of advice on my central heating system.

... ...


What do people think? Should I really think about replacing the system
if it's working? As I have said I have not moved in yet so not
spending a lot of time there so the system is on low. I suppose until I
move in I wont see how good the CH and HW supply is although I suspect
as a single bloke living there alone its going to be adequate.

Thanks very much for everyone's time, patience and any advice.
(Thanks also to Ed Sirett for pointing me to here and his response)

I think things may not be anywhere near as bad a BG are suggesting.
What is the current boiler power?
Around 10kW or 35 kBtu/hr should be fine.

Ed, would you say that the person who said "the plastic pipe will allow
lots of oxygen in the system to corrode the radiators " is telling pinky
porkies or blatant lies ?

OP - just step away from British Gas ... quickly

AIUI Oxygen _can_ diffuse through a warm plastic pipe non barrier pipe.

What I'm unsure about is the relative diffusion rate through the plastic
pipe as against, say, the open surface in the F&E tank.

Intuition can sometimes be misleading but my gut feel is that sod all
oxygen of any significance can get through the plastic pipe. Even if I'm
wrong the corrosion inhibitor should be able to handle it, it would just
need replacing more often.

It must be magnitudes less trouble than pumping over or drawing in air,
and systems do survive for long periods of time with those serious faults.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:56:43 +0000, raden wrote:

In message , alexbartman
writes

I really think you're better off to move in and see what happens but
Power Flushing is really terribly straightforward - and there is
absolutely no need to pay the £650 +VAT that BG want for doing it.
I hired a Power flush pump and chemicals(bought those!!) for the grand
sum of £95 and followed the very detailed instructions to the letter.
Took me 3 hours and it has given my CH and HW a new lease fo life. BG
had told me that the boiler was irrepairable and could not stop it
"kettling". Now it's a smooth and quiet as new and although it wont
last forever (its 18 years old) I have bought time to work out what to
do when im ready to replace it. I hired my unit from Kamco in St
Albans, herts - sure there is soemwhere near you that can do the same


Kamco also sell sludge buster - which might do the job without the need
of a power flush

You put the VCW back or was this from earlier?

Used the VCW to pump for a couple of weeks,

drained down

replaced the boiler with a worcester

--
geoff

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 23:38:57 -0800, Mike wrote:

Hello,

I am looking for a little bit of advice on my central heating system. I
have just bought a small 2 bedroom terraced house and have been given a
bit of doom and gloom by British Gas (I know maybe not the most popular
people on here but I am a total novice when it comes to central heating
and hot water supplies as this is my first house.

The system is approximately 10 years old running off an Ideal Elan
NF230 boiler supplying a Thermal Storage Cylinder (set at 75c). It's
got a small copper header/expansion tank above the cylinder with a
copper lid, 2 pumps, and a Room Thermostat/programmer in the lounge.

I have done a bit of digging around on these and if I understand it
correctly, the boiler heats the water in cylinder which is used to feed
the radiators, the 2 pumps are connected one to the boiler feed and one
to the radiator feed. The HW is then fed at mains pressure through a
heat exchanger/coil inside the tank to heat and passed to the outlets.

Sounds like the Gledhill Boilermate thermal store system I came across in
a flat the other day.

The central heating system is all non-barrier plastic pipe and of
course is original with the house except for pipe work around the
cylinder which appears to be copper, according to the British Gas
engineer the plastic pipe (and a few pages I have looked at on the
internet) is a very bad thing[tm].

He basically said that the system is a poor design, with a low powered
boiler (which is probably fair point, the maximum flow seems to be 80c
where as the tank wants to be 75c so there is not much redundancy
there). So its running at full kilt. He said the plastic pipe will
allow lots of oxygen in the system to corrode the radiators (I have had
2 off with the help of my dad and they were full of black cr*p but none
seem to be holed).

As Ed has said you don't need a huge boiler to heat the flat so that
won't be a problem. As for the non-barrier pipe even BG are (officially)
happy with this provided corrosion inhibitor is used in the system, as it
inevitably is these days.


He said what I will find is that my HW is not great when the heating is
running because the water from the cylinder is being cycled to the rads
which makes sense. I have not moved in yet, as I am decorating the
place first. He also said its very prone to limescale (we do live in a
hard water area).

You probably should have a scale inhibitor on the cold feed to the system
in that case. As for HW performance, when the flat is heating up from
freezing cold the HW delivery may be less but it should still be vastly
better than a combi could provide.


They did agree to look after my boiler and system on HomeCare 200 but
obviously had a good winge about how poor the system is and that I
should think about a PowerFlush (which I can ill afford to be quite
honest). He admitted I was getting circulation in the CH and so there
was no blockage, and it should be working so agreed to cover it. He
even went to far as to say that he would not have bought the house
purely because of the central heating :O I was a bit taken aback by
that, surely its not that bad?

Hmmn, British Gas slagging off a system and suggesting expensive
'remedial' work. Well, knock me down with a feather. :-)


So without changing the whole system, pipework etc etc I am planing to
do the following;

Drain the system fully down and flush out the radiators as much as I
can by running water through them. They all heat up well except the big
rad in the lounge which has a cold spot at the bottom (which I suspect
is full of crap).

Then use Purimachos Flushex to see if I can clean the system further,
before adding some Purimachos Protex Inhibitor to a fresh filled
system.

Dunno about Flushex but my own test suggests that Protex doesn't
work whereas Fernox MB-1 and Sentinel X100 do.
http://82.24.138.95/~john/Inhibitor/index.html
If you want to economise you're probably as well peeing in the water
(I'll test that next time :-)


What do people think? Should I really think about replacing the system
if it's working? As I have said I have not moved in yet so not
spending a lot of time there so the system is on low. I suppose until I
move in I wont see how good the CH and HW supply is although I suspect
as a single bloke living there alone its going to be adequate.

More than adequate ...

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett writes:

AIUI Oxygen _can_ diffuse through a warm plastic pipe non barrier pipe.

What I'm unsure about is the relative diffusion rate through the plastic
pipe as against, say, the open surface in the F&E tank.

I've no idea either, but it would be easy to test.
In a earlier posting, I worked out that a heating system when
cold looks like a 50% vacuum to an oxygen (or nitrogen) molecule
in the air outside the heating system. So take a length of
non barrier pipe, capped at one end, and with a pressure test
unit on the other end. Pump up to 1 bar above atmospheric with
air (giving same air pressure differential as you have when
heating system is cold), and watch how quickly the pressure
drops. The initial rate will be same rate air leaks in through
non barrier pipe when heating system is cold to attempt to
equalise the partial pressures of oxygen and nitrogen in the
water.

I don't actually have any non barrier pipe, so I leave this
to someone else to test. A comparison with barrier pipe and
copper tube would be ideal too.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Mike wrote
:
Hello,

I am looking for a little bit of advice on my central heating system. I
have just bought a small 2 bedroom terraced house and have been given a
bit of doom and gloom by British Gas (I know maybe not the most popular
people on here but I am a total novice when it comes to central heating
and hot water supplies as this is my first house.

The system is approximately 10 years old running off an Ideal Elan
NF230 boiler supplying a Thermal Storage Cylinder (set at 75c). It's
got a small copper header/expansion tank above the cylinder with a
copper lid, 2 pumps, and a Room Thermostat/programmer in the lounge.

I have done a bit of digging around on these and if I understand it
correctly, the boiler heats the water in cylinder which is used to feed
the radiators, the 2 pumps are connected one to the boiler feed and one
to the radiator feed. The HW is then fed at mains pressure through a
heat exchanger/coil inside the tank to heat and passed to the outlets.

The central heating system is all non-barrier plastic pipe and of
course is original with the house except for pipe work around the
cylinder which appears to be copper, according to the British Gas
engineer the plastic pipe (and a few pages I have looked at on the
internet) is a very bad thing[tm].

He basically said that the system is a poor design, with a low powered
boiler (which is probably fair point, the maximum flow seems to be 80c
where as the tank wants to be 75c so there is not much redundancy
there). So its running at full kilt. He said the plastic pipe will
allow lots of oxygen in the system to corrode the radiators (I have had
2 off with the help of my dad and they were full of black cr*p but none
seem to be holed).

He said what I will find is that my HW is not great when the heating is
running because the water from the cylinder is being cycled to the rads
which makes sense. I have not moved in yet, as I am decorating the
place first. He also said its very prone to limescale (we do live in a
hard water area).

They did agree to look after my boiler and system on HomeCare 200 but
obviously had a good winge about how poor the system is and that I
should think about a PowerFlush (which I can ill afford to be quite
honest). He admitted I was getting circulation in the CH and so there
was no blockage, and it should be working so agreed to cover it. He
even went to far as to say that he would not have bought the house
purely because of the central heating :O I was a bit taken aback by
that, surely its not that bad?

So without changing the whole system, pipework etc etc I am planing to
do the following;

Drain the system fully down and flush out the radiators as much as I
can by running water through them. They all heat up well except the big
rad in the lounge which has a cold spot at the bottom (which I suspect
is full of crap).

Then use Purimachos Flushex to see if I can clean the system further,
before adding some Purimachos Protex Inhibitor to a fresh filled
system.

What do people think? Should I really think about replacing the system
if it's working? As I have said I have not moved in yet so not
spending a lot of time there so the system is on low. I suppose until I
move in I wont see how good the CH and HW supply is although I suspect
as a single bloke living there alone its going to be adequate.

Thanks very much for everyone's time, patience and any advice.
(Thanks also to Ed Sirett for pointing me to here and his response)

Mike

Since you cant spot a con, I suggest staying away from salesmen
altogether. And I'd cancel the BG maintenance contract if you've still
got time.


NT

John Stumbles wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 23:38:57 -0800, Mike wrote:

Dunno about Flushex but my own test suggests that Protex doesn't
work whereas Fernox MB-1 and Sentinel X100 do.

Is it okay to use the Sentinel products with plastic pipe
installations?

Thanks,

Mike

On 5 Jan 2006 11:02:53 -0800, in uk.d-i-y "Mike"
wrote:

Is it ok to replace the radiator valves? My dad is pretty confident we
can do it easily enough and I want to put two TRVs on the bedroom
radiators if I can anyway. So while I am draining the whole system it
may be just as well to replace the weapy valves.

Yes, they are very cheap. But if they are otherwise in good condition it
may be sufficient to just tighten the gland nut .

Is there anything I need to know about TRVs, Valves with respect to my
10mm plastic pipe or should they (screwfix, toolstation ones) be ok to
fit?

You need to be aware of "balancing". If it has already been done
(unlikely!!) the lockshield valves will be set in the correct position
so note the settings so you can reset them after replacing the rads.
Balancing is explained here
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/rad-balance.html

My dad has fitted my TRVs on 10mm metal pipe but he is little unsure of
the plastic type.

Plastic and copper pipe is inter-operable so should fit the same if you
have 10mm TRVs. They are more commonly available as 15mm though which
you could use with a 15/10mm reducer.



Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

Phil Addison wrote:


Plastic and copper pipe is inter-operable so should fit the same if you
have 10mm TRVs. They are more commonly available as 15mm though which
you could use with a 15/10mm reducer.

Thanks for that Phil.

One final bit of info, will I need to cut the plastic pipe to fit the
new olive and nut on for the compression fitting into the TRV/Radiator
Valve? I believe the pipe is HEP20.

If I do have to cut I may need extra pipe for the downstairs rads. They
have elbows at 90 degrees to allow the pipe to go into the walls. The
upstairs have extra length which I can pull through the floor, they go
directly down.

Looking around on the net, it appears 50m is the smallest length of
10mm pipe I can get, clearly I need less than a metre. Any idea where I
can find or aquire "cut offs"?

Also are the Sentinel X400 and X100 products ok for use with plastic
piped systems?

Cheers for the help.

Mike

Phil Addison wrote:

Plastic and copper pipe is inter-operable so should fit the same if you
have 10mm TRVs. They are more commonly available as 15mm though which
you could use with a 15/10mm reducer.

Thanks for that Phil.

One final bit of info, will I need to cut the plastic pipe to fit the
new olive and nut on for the compression fitting into the TRV/Radiator
Valve? I believe the pipe is HEP20.

If I do have to cut I may need extra pipe for the downstairs rads. They
have elbows at 90 degrees to allow the pipe to go into the walls. The
upstairs have extra length which I can pull through the floor, they go
directly down.

Looking around on the net, it appears 50m is the smallest length of
10mm pipe I can get, clearly I need less than a metre. Any idea where I
can find or aquire "cut offs"?

Also are the Sentinel X400 and X100 products ok for use with plastic
piped systems?

Cheers for the help.

Mike

Phil Addison wrote:

Plastic and copper pipe is inter-operable so should fit the same if you
have 10mm TRVs. They are more commonly available as 15mm though which
you could use with a 15/10mm reducer.

Thanks for that Phil.

One final bit of info, will I need to cut the plastic pipe to fit the
new olive and nut on for the compression fitting into the TRV/Radiator
Valve? I believe the pipe is HEP20.

If I do have to cut I may need extra pipe for the downstairs rads. They
have elbows at 90 degrees to allow the pipe to go into the walls. The
upstairs have extra length which I can pull through the floor, they go
directly down.

Looking around on the net, it appears 50m is the smallest length of
10mm pipe I can get, clearly I need less than a metre. Any idea where I
can find or aquire "cut offs"?

Also are the Sentinel X400 and X100 products ok for use with plastic
piped systems?

Cheers for the help.

Mike

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 12:53:04 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

Plastic and copper pipe is inter-operable so should fit the same if you
have 10mm TRVs. They are more commonly available as 15mm though which
you could use with a 15/10mm reducer.

Thanks for that Phil.

One final bit of info, will I need to cut the plastic pipe to fit the
new olive and nut on for the compression fitting into the TRV/Radiator
Valve? I believe the pipe is HEP20.

If I do have to cut I may need extra pipe for the downstairs rads.
They have elbows at 90 degrees to allow the pipe to go into the walls.
The upstairs have extra length which I can pull through the floor,
they go directly down.

Looking around on the net, it appears 50m is the smallest length of
10mm pipe I can get, clearly I need less than a metre. Any idea where
I can find or aquire "cut offs"?

Also are the Sentinel X400 and X100 products ok for use with plastic
piped systems?

Cheers for the help.

Mike
--
Mike Myers
ICQ 1312739
Trance @ www.di.fm & www.etn.fm

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 13:43:20 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Mike Myers
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 12:53:04 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:

Plastic and copper pipe is inter-operable so should fit the same if you
have 10mm TRVs. They are more commonly available as 15mm though which
you could use with a 15/10mm reducer.

Thanks for that Phil.

One final bit of info, will I need to cut the plastic pipe to fit the
new olive and nut on for the compression fitting into the TRV/Radiator
Valve? I believe the pipe is HEP20.

Why would you want to cut it, unless it is damaged? It must me in good
condition, and you must use the special stainless steel inserts in the
cut end to support the pipe wall at the fitting end. Actually I'm not
sure if that is true for 10mm, but it certainly is for 15mm - check on
the Hep20 website http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk/

Do read up on the instructions. It is easy to use, but important to cut
it cleanly with the special knife (£4-£5 for a generic one) and to make
sure the pipe is inserted the full depth in the fittings. The Hep pipe
has marks on it to facilitate that. And I repeat, don't forget to use
the steel inserts in each cut end.

If I do have to cut I may need extra pipe for the downstairs rads.
They have elbows at 90 degrees to allow the pipe to go into the walls.
The upstairs have extra length which I can pull through the floor,
they go directly down.

Looking around on the net, it appears 50m is the smallest length of
10mm pipe I can get, clearly I need less than a metre. Any idea where
I can find or aquire "cut offs"?

15mm is sold in 3m straight lengths. 10mm might be too. If you can't get
a short length just use a length of copper instead. It is totally
compatible so you could come out of the TRV in 10mm copper (or 15 for
that matter - may be a cheaper TRV?) and use a plastic or compression
coupler to connect to your existing pipe work. Actually it is preferable
to use copper where it is visible anyway, as plastic never runs in a
true straight line and sags slightly when hot.

Also are the Sentinel X400 and X100 products ok for use with plastic
piped systems?

Yes. But check the Hep site.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
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On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 15:35:12 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:


Why would you want to cut it, unless it is damaged? It must me in good
condition, and you must use the special stainless steel inserts in the
cut end to support the pipe wall at the fitting end. Actually I'm not
sure if that is true for 10mm, but it certainly is for 15mm - check on
the Hep20 website http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk/

Sorry for the confusion, what I mean is I am taking off existing
radiator valves which are terminated into HEP20 and replacing them for
new valves, 2 of which will be TRVs. (the old valves are weeping and
look cruddy).

If I remove the existing pipe, will it be ok to terminate to the new
valves, or will I have to cut the existing end which has the
compression olive and fit new?

I am assuming the pipe will already have the stainless steel inserts,
and the old olive (wont that be damaged due to the compression fit?).

I had assumed I fit new inserts and new olive from the new valve then
remake the compression joint. I has assumed this is why I would have
to cut the end of the pipe.

Thanks and sorry for my silly questions but I am a novice with this,
and my dad who has done his own copper work doesn't know about
plastic.

Mike
--
Mike Myers
ICQ 1312739
Trance @ www.di.fm & www.etn.fm

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:26:26 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Mike Myers
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 15:35:12 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote:


Why would you want to cut it, unless it is damaged? It must me in good
condition, and you must use the special stainless steel inserts in the
cut end to support the pipe wall at the fitting end. Actually I'm not
sure if that is true for 10mm, but it certainly is for 15mm - check on
the Hep20 website http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk/

Sorry for the confusion, what I mean is I am taking off existing
radiator valves which are terminated into HEP20 and replacing them for
new valves, 2 of which will be TRVs. (the old valves are weeping and
look cruddy).

If I remove the existing pipe, will it be ok to terminate to the new
valves, or will I have to cut the existing end which has the
compression olive and fit new?

I am assuming the pipe will already have the stainless steel inserts,
and the old olive (wont that be damaged due to the compression fit?).

They are usually ok to re-use so long as it hasn't been over-tightened.
Check it has not cut too deeply into the pipe if re-using it.

I had assumed I fit new inserts and new olive from the new valve then
remake the compression joint. I has assumed this is why I would have
to cut the end of the pipe.

You don't get inserts with valves. They come from the plastic pipe
supplier.

The compression nut will normally be trapped on the pipe by the olive.
You then have two options. Use the existing trapped compression nut to
attach the pipe to the new valve (clean up the threads first if caked
up), or cut the pipe back to a clean portion and use a new insert
(ideally, but you can get away with re-using the same one) and your new
fittings. You may need to extend the pipe with copper as I mentioned
before. Use a very light smear of Boss White on the olive (not the
threads) and before reassembling. The Boss White is for lubricating the
joint during tightening as much as it is for sealing. Don't use Boss
White on any plastic fittings, should you have any.

Thanks and sorry for my silly questions but I am a novice with this,
and my dad who has done his own copper work doesn't know about
plastic.

Not a silly question at all - we all started at the beginning. I bet it
won't be long before you are answering questions here.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me