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Heating design diagram (preliminary)
Thanks for your help to date. I've distilled the advice from various threads
in this newsgroup to come up with a possible heating design for my house. The drawing HD01 at http://tinyurl.com/3zv2g shows the proposed hydraulic design for a large domestic heating system. The boiler and hot water cylinder is on the left hand side of the drawing, space heating is on the right. (You might need to rotate the view so that the drawing is in landscape orientation in your browser) Some explanatory notes on the design are appended below. Any comments would be gratefully received but my principal questions a (1) The internal space heating requirement when it's -3°C outside is 31kW. In addition, there is a 250L cylinder serving three showers and one bath for a family of five. Is a 38kW boiler sufficient? (2) I'm specifying 28mm pipe through the water softener and up to the cylinder, 22mm for the boiler flow and return, 22mm to potable water cold taps and 15mm everywhere else. Is that reasonable or over the top? (3) A 22mm pipe is teed off the secondary side of the low loss header. From this 22mm pipe, I propose to tee off 15mm pipe to each heating zone. What is the maximum distance between these 15mm tees, and what's the maximum permissible distance from the furthest 15mm tee to the header? (Keston told me that there is NO restriction) (4) What's the best way of incorporating two towel rails (bottom right) into the circuit so that the towel rails come on all year round when there is either a call for heat or a call for hot water? Design: The mains cold water supply is treated by a water softener (bottom left). The softened water is fed to a 250L cylinder under pressure from an accumulator which keeps the cold water at about 2.5 bar and provides a high flow rate to all taps. The water in the cylinder is heated indirectly by the primary of a 38kW fully-modulating condensing boiler in the room below the cylinder. Hot water is circulated to the taps by means of a secondary pump. Because the system is unvented, the hot water is also at a pressure of about 2.5 bar. A diverter valve allows the boiler to heat the central heating system when there is no demand for heating from the cylinder. The boiler flow is diverted into a low loss header from which the distribution circuits (heating zones) are pumped. The header buffers the boiler primary control against sudden changes of flow in the distribution circuits. The central heating system comprises both underfloor heating and radiators in all rooms (only a few rooms A-E are shown, for clarity). There are two heating zones: The kitchen and reception rooms on the ground floor are zone 1, and the upstairs bedrooms and bathrooms are zone 2. Since each zone comprises one underfloor heating system and one set of radiators, there are a total of 2 x 2 = 4 heating distribution circuits. The underfloor heating circuits are connected to a manifold and temperature-controlled by room thermostats which operate the circuit valves. The water through the underfloor heating system is limited to 55°C maximum by a thermostatic mixing valve at the manifold entry. The underfloor heating has a maximum output of 17kW and is only capable of maintaining a internal temperature of 9°C or 10°C above the outside temperature. The purpose of the radiators is to supplement the underfloor heating with up to 14kW additional heat when the external temperatures are cold. The temperature of the water pumped to the radiators is (almost) equal to the temperature in the low loss header. The boiler's primary flow temperature is a function of the outside temperature and typically falls from 70°C to 40°C when the outside temperature rises from 0°C to 15°C. The radiators are switched on and off by thermostatic valves. Every underfloor heating circuit has its own room thermostat and the circuits are terminated at a manifold which has its own local controller that sends a signal to the master controller when there is a call for underfloor heat. The master controller has provision for switching the hot water and heating off independently at user-adjustable times. The system has a distribution of drain cocks and isolation valves to simply maintenance. Sources of information: This newsgroup and, amongst others, Viessmann http://tinyurl.com/6cqtt (Page 41) Geminox http://tinyurl.com/5glxs (Bottom of page 7) MAN Heiztechnik http://tinyurl.com/3vzwz (Page 27) |
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In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
John Aston wrote: Thanks for your help to date. I've distilled the advice from various threads in this newsgroup to come up with a possible heating design for my house. The drawing HD01 at http://tinyurl.com/3zv2g shows the proposed hydraulic design for a large domestic heating system. The boiler and hot water cylinder is on the left hand side of the drawing, space heating is on the right. (You might need to rotate the view so that the drawing is in landscape orientation in your browser) Wonderful - but who's going to understand it when you're not around? Incidentally, what's the 'top-up' tank in the primary circuit for - bearing in mind that it's a pressurised system with pressure vessel and filling loop? -- Cheers, Set Square ______ Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid. |
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Set Square wrote in message
... Wonderful - but who's going to understand it when you're not around? I'll leave my inheritors the Google Groups link to this thread  Incidentally, what's the 'top-up' tank in the primary circuit for - bearing in mind that it's a pressurised system with pressure vessel and filling loop? You're right - I don't really need the tank. I had half a mind to use it to monitor the volume of water that had escaped from the system so that I could assess whether there were any leaks. |
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"John Aston" wrote in message .. . Thanks for your help to date. I've distilled the advice from various threads in this newsgroup to come up with a possible heating design for my house. The drawing HD01 at http://tinyurl.com/3zv2g shows the proposed hydraulic design for a large domestic heating system. The boiler and hot water cylinder is on the left hand side of the drawing, space heating is on the right. (You might need to rotate the view so that the drawing is in landscape orientation in your browser) Some explanatory notes on the design are appended below. Any comments would be gratefully received but my principal questions a (1) The internal space heating requirement when it's -3°C outside is 31kW. In addition, there is a 250L cylinder serving three showers and one bath for a family of five. Is a 38kW boiler sufficient? (2) I'm specifying 28mm pipe through the water softener and up to the cylinder, 22mm for the boiler flow and return, 22mm to potable water cold taps and 15mm everywhere else. Is that reasonable or over the top? (3) A 22mm pipe is teed off the secondary side of the low loss header. From this 22mm pipe, I propose to tee off 15mm pipe to each heating zone. What is the maximum distance between these 15mm tees, and what's the maximum permissible distance from the furthest 15mm tee to the header? (Keston told me that there is NO restriction) (4) What's the best way of incorporating two towel rails (bottom right) into the circuit so that the towel rails come on all year round when there is either a call for heat or a call for hot water? Design: The mains cold water supply is treated by a water softener (bottom left). The softened water is fed to a 250L cylinder under pressure from an accumulator which keeps the cold water at about 2.5 bar and provides a high flow rate to all taps. The water in the cylinder is heated indirectly by the primary of a 38kW fully-modulating condensing boiler in the room below the cylinder. Hot water is circulated to the taps by means of a secondary pump. Because the system is unvented, the hot water is also at a pressure of about 2.5 bar. A diverter valve allows the boiler to heat the central heating system when there is no demand for heating from the cylinder. The boiler flow is diverted into a low loss header from which the distribution circuits (heating zones) are pumped. The header buffers the boiler primary control against sudden changes of flow in the distribution circuits. The central heating system comprises both underfloor heating and radiators in all rooms (only a few rooms A-E are shown, for clarity). There are two heating zones: The kitchen and reception rooms on the ground floor are zone 1, and the upstairs bedrooms and bathrooms are zone 2. Since each zone comprises one underfloor heating system and one set of radiators, there are a total of 2 x 2 = 4 heating distribution circuits. The underfloor heating circuits are connected to a manifold and temperature-controlled by room thermostats which operate the circuit valves. The water through the underfloor heating system is limited to 55°C maximum by a thermostatic mixing valve at the manifold entry. The underfloor heating has a maximum output of 17kW and is only capable of maintaining a internal temperature of 9°C or 10°C above the outside temperature. The purpose of the radiators is to supplement the underfloor heating with up to 14kW additional heat when the external temperatures are cold. The temperature of the water pumped to the radiators is (almost) equal to the temperature in the low loss header. The boiler's primary flow temperature is a function of the outside temperature and typically falls from 70°C to 40°C when the outside temperature rises from 0°C to 15°C. The radiators are switched on and off by thermostatic valves. Every underfloor heating circuit has its own room thermostat and the circuits are terminated at a manifold which has its own local controller that sends a signal to the master controller when there is a call for underfloor heat. The master controller has provision for switching the hot water and heating off independently at user-adjustable times. The system has a distribution of drain cocks and isolation valves to simply maintenance. Sources of information: This newsgroup and, amongst others, Viessmann http://tinyurl.com/6cqtt (Page 41) Geminox http://tinyurl.com/5glxs (Bottom of page 7) MAN Heiztechnik http://tinyurl.com/3vzwz (Page 27) I'll get back tomorrow . Have been out a lot today. |
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In article ,
IMM wrote: I'll get back tomorrow . Have been out a lot today. Lots of deliveries this time of year. -- *Work is for people who don't know how to fish. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , IMM wrote: I'll get back tomorrow . Have been out a lot today. Lots of deliveries this time of year. Deliverables are in order. |
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"John Aston" wrote in message ...
Thanks for your help to date. I've distilled the advice from various threads in this newsgroup to come up with a possible heating design for my house. The drawing HD01 at http://tinyurl.com/3zv2g shows the proposed hydraulic design Ooh, lovely. You'd said you were a plumbing amateur. Ha, ha! You've done this before, haven't you. Suggestions; 1) Put a DCV between the drinking water and the softener. The DCV shown protects the mains, but not the drinking water from contamination by the softener. 2) 15mm should be plenty for the drinking water. 3) Softener. You'd need a duplex model, with two resin vessels, to ensure a softened supply at all times. A duplex softener would regenerate as required by a meter, so would minimize the salt consumption; costs more, though. The resin takes a 1 to 1.5 hours to regenerate. Softened water at 0ppm can pinhole copper hot water pipes in 2 or 3 years. A blending by-pass valve to give 40ppm is advisable, but you'd need a serious test-kit. 4) The PRV symbols are the wrong way round. The symbol is derived from steam PRVs which have small HP inlet pipes and large LP outlet pipes. Pedant mode off. 5) Don't fill the heating with softened water. The fill water will contain a minute amount of limescale, but softened water causes some problem with the inhibitors which I can't recall. 6) You don't want a PRV upstream of the accumulator. The idea is to accumulate a volume of water under pressure. A PRV downstream is OK. 7) I'd add the accumulator at a later date, if it proved necessary. 8) The PRV on the unvented HWS usually has a second outlet port for a balanced pressure cold supply. The strainer should be upstream of the PRV; often it's integral with it. The whole set of components comes with the cylinder 'package'. 9) Given the size of this system, I would consider supplying the DHWS cylinder with a pump (making 6) from the secondary side of the low loss header. 10) On the low loss header, the temperature sensor has to be immersed in the flow water and the primary & secondary pipes need to be off-set. This is a schematic drawing, so they probably will be. 11) There would be IVs on the flow connections to the UFH headers. These often have flow indicators to facilitate balancing. 12) On the heating flow connections, I'd put the CVs downstream of the IVs. It makes no difference to the function, but you could service a defective CV without draining the entire system. 13) You need IVs on the heating returns from the rad circuits, before they connect to the 22mm secondary return header pipe. I'd put all the IVs adjacent to the secondary header pipes. 14) Is 22mm pipe big enough for the secondary header pipes? There should be a negligible pressure loss at the design flow rate. 15) Why do you need a control valve upstream of the mixing valves? 16) Towel rails; another pump, I'd think, No.7. There's some EU regulation requiring low temperatures to towel rails, but I don't recall the details. 17) You don't need the top-up tank, you can add inhibitors through a radiator. A drain valve on a rad, after the rad valves, for this would be useful. 18) I don't think you need more than one pressure gauge. Stick it on The Wall at Heatinghelp and invite comments. There are photos of similar systems posted there regularly. They appreciate this sort of thing. Tell them you're a first-time amateur! Is a 38kW boiler sufficient? It depends entirely on the heat losses. No other response would be sensible. Wonderful - but who's going to understand it when you're not around? Me. I have a schematic somewhere that I once drew of an existing heating system. It takes up an A0 sheet. Some details are difficult to read at that size. |
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#10
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Aidan wrote in message om... "John Aston" wrote in message ... Thanks for your help to date. I've distilled the advice from various threads in this newsgroup to come up with a possible heating design for my house. The drawing HD01 at http://tinyurl.com/3zv2g shows the proposed hydraulic design Ooh, lovely. You'd said you were a plumbing amateur. Ha, ha! You've done this before, haven't you. No, honestly! It's really the result of pouring over the manufacturers' instructions and trying to piece it all together. Suggestions; 1) Put a DCV between the drinking water and the softener. The DCV shown protects the mains, but not the drinking water from contamination by the softener. OK. I was worried about a drop in the pressure/flow rate. My incoming supply is only 2.8 bar static and 30lpm. 2) 15mm should be plenty for the drinking water. OK, thanks 3) Softener. You'd need a duplex model, with two resin vessels, to ensure a softened supply at all times. A duplex softener would regenerate as required by a meter, so would minimize the salt consumption; costs more, though. The resin takes a 1 to 1.5 hours to regenerate. Softened water at 0ppm can pinhole copper hot water pipes in 2 or 3 years. A blending by-pass valve to give 40ppm is advisable, but you'd need a serious test-kit. The softener I had in mind was a Kinetico 2020c HF which uses two resin-filled cylinders alternately to give a flow rate of 51 lpm at 2 bar. I never knew its effect on copper pipes! I'm surprised they don't mention it 4) The PRV symbols are the wrong way round. The symbol is derived from steam PRVs which have small HP inlet pipes and large LP outlet pipes. Pedant mode off. 5) Don't fill the heating with softened water. The fill water will contain a minute amount of limescale, but softened water causes some problem with the inhibitors which I can't recall. Thanks, I'll change the above in the second draft. 6) You don't want a PRV upstream of the accumulator. The idea is to accumulate a volume of water under pressure. A PRV downstream is OK. The upstream PRV is part of a combination valve that is supplied with the Dualstream cylinder and accumulator. I guess it's set at 3.5 bar to comply with regulations. It might be easier to leave out the downstream PRV. The mains static pressure is only 2.8 bar anyway. 7) I'd add the accumulator at a later date, if it proved necessary. Yes. If the vendor allows me to buy an accumulator without the cylinder, I'll plumb for it as a future addition. 8) The PRV on the unvented HWS usually has a second outlet port for a balanced pressure cold supply. The strainer should be upstream of the PRV; often it's integral with it. The whole set of components comes with the cylinder 'package'. You're right about the package. My drawing has shown the individual components really just for my own understanding. I'll reverse the position of the PRV and strainer. 9) Given the size of this system, I would consider supplying the DHWS cylinder with a pump (making 6) from the secondary side of the low loss header. I did think about this but (a) The cylinder is less than 8m pipe length from the boiler so I hoped that the boiler pump could get the water there on its own. (b) The cylinder water will be pumped from the boiler at 80°C and the water through the heating circuits will typically be at 50-60°C. I didn't want the header to cycle between the low and high temperatures when the boiler heated up the cylinder. I thought that that might be less efficient. 10) On the low loss header, the temperature sensor has to be immersed in the flow water and the primary & secondary pipes need to be off-set. This is a schematic drawing, so they probably will be. Yes, you're right. The header is a pre-fabricated assembly. 11) There would be IVs on the flow connections to the UFH headers. These often have flow indicators to facilitate balancing. I'm hoping that these come as part of the manifold from the UFH suppliers 12) On the heating flow connections, I'd put the CVs downstream of the IVs. It makes no difference to the function, but you could service a defective CV without draining the entire system. Thanks, I'll change their position in the second draft. 13) You need IVs on the heating returns from the rad circuits, before they connect to the 22mm secondary return header pipe. I'd put all the IVs adjacent to the secondary header pipes. OK. I'll add these 14) Is 22mm pipe big enough for the secondary header pipes? There should be a negligible pressure loss at the design flow rate. Pipe diameter is an area of uncertainty for me. Also, you can see on the diagram that I've written MAX. DISTANCE? I can't get any definitive answers (or even rule of thumb) from the boiler manufacturers. 15) Why do you need a control valve upstream of the mixing valves? The UFH heating circuits have their own individual themostats. If one room gets up to temperature, it can close down its circuit's valve, but still let the other circuits on the manifold heat up. 16) Towel rails; another pump, I'd think, No.7. There's some EU regulation requiring low temperatures to towel rails, but I don't recall the details. Yes, another pump is probably the way although, with the way I've drawn it, in Summer the boiler would have to heat up the header just for the towel rails. I can live with this, I guess. 17) You don't need the top-up tank, you can add inhibitors through a radiator. A drain valve on a rad, after the rad valves, for this would be useful. 18) I don't think you need more than one pressure gauge. OK. I think that they come as part of the UFH manifold. Stick it on The Wall at Heatinghelp and invite comments. There are photos of similar systems posted there regularly. They appreciate this sort of thing. Tell them you're a first-time amateur! I'll make the changes and do this. Is a 38kW boiler sufficient? It depends entirely on the heat losses. No other response would be sensible. The heat losses would be 31kW. I'm hoping that the additional 7kW will give me some headroom plus a bit for the domestic hot water. Thanks, Aidan. You're a gentleman. |
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"John Aston" wrote in message .. . Aidan wrote in message om... "John Aston" wrote in message ... Thanks for your help to date. I've distilled the advice from various threads in this newsgroup to come up with a possible heating design for my house. The drawing HD01 at http://tinyurl.com/3zv2g shows the proposed hydraulic design Ooh, lovely. You'd said you were a plumbing amateur. Ha, ha! You've done this before, haven't you. No, honestly! It's really the result of pouring over the manufacturers' instructions and trying to piece it all together. Suggestions; 1) Put a DCV between the drinking water and the softener. The DCV shown protects the mains, but not the drinking water from contamination by the softener. OK. I was worried about a drop in the pressure/flow rate. My incoming supply is only 2.8 bar static and 30lpm. 2) 15mm should be plenty for the drinking water. OK, thanks 3) Softener. You'd need a duplex model, with two resin vessels, to ensure a softened supply at all times. A duplex softener would regenerate as required by a meter, so would minimize the salt consumption; costs more, though. The resin takes a 1 to 1.5 hours to regenerate. Softened water at 0ppm can pinhole copper hot water pipes in 2 or 3 years. A blending by-pass valve to give 40ppm is advisable, but you'd need a serious test-kit. The softener I had in mind was a Kinetico 2020c HF which uses two resin-filled cylinders alternately to give a flow rate of 51 lpm at 2 bar. I never knew its effect on copper pipes! I'm surprised they don't mention it 4) The PRV symbols are the wrong way round. The symbol is derived from steam PRVs which have small HP inlet pipes and large LP outlet pipes. Pedant mode off. 5) Don't fill the heating with softened water. The fill water will contain a minute amount of limescale, but softened water causes some problem with the inhibitors which I can't recall. Thanks, I'll change the above in the second draft. 6) You don't want a PRV upstream of the accumulator. The idea is to accumulate a volume of water under pressure. A PRV downstream is OK. The upstream PRV is part of a combination valve that is supplied with the Dualstream cylinder and accumulator. I guess it's set at 3.5 bar to comply with regulations. No. To protect the unvented cylinder. A heat bank with a plate heat exchanger can go to about 10 bar. It might be easier to leave out the downstream PRV. The mains static pressure is only 2.8 bar anyway. 7) I'd add the accumulator at a later date, if it proved necessary. Yes. If the vendor allows me to buy an accumulator without the cylinder, I'll plumb for it as a future addition. 8) The PRV on the unvented HWS usually has a second outlet port for a balanced pressure cold supply. The strainer should be upstream of the PRV; often it's integral with it. The whole set of components comes with the cylinder 'package'. You're right about the package. My drawing has shown the individual components really just for my own understanding. I'll reverse the position of the PRV and strainer. 9) Given the size of this system, I would consider supplying the DHWS cylinder with a pump (making 6) from the secondary side of the low loss header. I did think about this but (a) The cylinder is less than 8m pipe length from the boiler so I hoped that the boiler pump could get the water there on its own. (b) The cylinder water will be pumped from the boiler at 80°C and the water through the heating circuits will typically be at 50-60°C. I didn't want the header to cycle between the low and high temperatures when the boiler heated up the cylinder. I thought that that might be less efficient. 10) On the low loss header, the temperature sensor has to be immersed in the flow water and the primary & secondary pipes need to be off-set. This is a schematic drawing, so they probably will be. Yes, you're right. The header is a pre-fabricated assembly. 11) There would be IVs on the flow connections to the UFH headers. These often have flow indicators to facilitate balancing. I'm hoping that these come as part of the manifold from the UFH suppliers 12) On the heating flow connections, I'd put the CVs downstream of the IVs. It makes no difference to the function, but you could service a defective CV without draining the entire system. Thanks, I'll change their position in the second draft. 13) You need IVs on the heating returns from the rad circuits, before they connect to the 22mm secondary return header pipe. I'd put all the IVs adjacent to the secondary header pipes. OK. I'll add these 14) Is 22mm pipe big enough for the secondary header pipes? There should be a negligible pressure loss at the design flow rate. Pipe diameter is an area of uncertainty for me. Also, you can see on the diagram that I've written MAX. DISTANCE? I can't get any definitive answers (or even rule of thumb) from the boiler manufacturers. 15) Why do you need a control valve upstream of the mixing valves? The UFH heating circuits have their own individual themostats. If one room gets up to temperature, it can close down its circuit's valve, but still let the other circuits on the manifold heat up. 16) Towel rails; another pump, I'd think, No.7. There's some EU regulation requiring low temperatures to towel rails, but I don't recall the details. Yes, another pump is probably the way although, with the way I've drawn it, in Summer the boiler would have to heat up the header just for the towel rails. I can live with this, I guess. 17) You don't need the top-up tank, you can add inhibitors through a radiator. A drain valve on a rad, after the rad valves, for this would be useful. 18) I don't think you need more than one pressure gauge. OK. I think that they come as part of the UFH manifold. Stick it on The Wall at Heatinghelp and invite comments. There are photos of similar systems posted there regularly. They appreciate this sort of thing. Tell them you're a first-time amateur! I'll make the changes and do this. Is a 38kW boiler sufficient? It depends entirely on the heat losses. No other response would be sensible. The heat losses would be 31kW. I'm hoping that the additional 7kW will give me some headroom plus a bit for the domestic hot water. Thanks, Aidan. You're a gentleman. |
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"John Aston" wrote in message ...
OK. I was worried about a drop in the pressure/flow rate. My incoming supply is only 2.8 bar static and 30lpm. It would probably be OK to just relocate the DCV shown. I think the Water Regulations require a DCV on a softener inlet. The mains pressure varies inversely with demand in the neighbourhood during the day, so you'd work on the minimum. The flow rate achieved at the minimum pressure should indicate whether you might need the accumulator. I never knew its effect on copper pipes! I'm surprised they don't mention it It's not something the manufacturers publicise and I don't have any definite information. My understanding is that it's something that can happen, but that the softener isn't always the guilty party. Erosion and bad pipe-fitting have some role. My understanding is that water softened & blended to about 40ppm hardness is fine for all practical purposes and doesn't create the corrosion problems. Softened water can be unpleasant stuff in the wrong place. I think the dissolved calcium salts are mostly changed into sodium carbonate (washing soda?). I've no experience of Kinetico. The last test kit I used was made by Hach, supplied by a company called CamLab. It was a titration test kit (colour change). I've found dip strips can be misleading in some hands (RTFM again). I guess it's set at 3.5 bar to comply with regulations. It might be easier to leave out the downstream PRV. The mains static pressure is only 2.8 bar anyway. I think your original detail & IMM were right (Ow, that hurt!) & I was wrong. The upstream PRV would be set to limit the pressure to the design rating of the accumulator. I once had a discussion with an HSE inspector who expected to see every PRV accompanied by a correctly-sized safety/pressure relief valve to prevent the equipment being over-pressurized in the (quite likely) event of a PRV failure. We were talking about compressed air, but his point is still valid here. I did think about this but (a) The cylinder is less than 8m pipe length from the boiler This seems to be a compromise between the conflicting requirements of supplying the cylinder with sufficiently hot water (to get the stored DHW above 60degC), keeping the boiler return temperature low and avoiding the need for lots of mixing valves. It's outside my experience, so I'll shut up. Yes, you're right. The header is a pre-fabricated assembly. You could fabricate one, it's just pipe & fittings. I'm hoping that these come as part of the manifold from the UFH suppliers Only if you specify them. The flow-rate indicators are an optional extra. They usually become unreadable after a few years, so are only useful for initial balancing. You need to make a record of the settings and keep it in a safe place. Also, you can see on the diagram that I've written MAX. DISTANCE? I can't get any definitive answers There is no maximum, so long as the pump(s) can handle the resistance at the flow rate. The UFH heating circuits have their own individual themostats. Yes, but I was querying why you need a motorized control valve adjacent to the UFH manifolds' mixing valves. If the pipe stat temperature was exceeded, you could stop the pump and/or set the mixing valve to 0%. Are the mixing valves thermostatic or electric? The heat losses would be 31kW. I'm hoping that the additional 7kW will give me some headroom plus a bit for the domestic hot water. An additional 7kW should be lots, check the cylinder manufacturer's spec. You won't need additional capacity if the HWS has priority, as IMM said. I don't like the diverting idea, but I see the need for it. A couple of other points; The DOCs on the heating zones return pipes should be upstream of the IVs. They should drain the zone when the IVs are shut, but will drain the whole system as shown. You have to ensure that the primary flow through the low loss header is greater than the secondary flow at all times. If the secondary flow is greater, then some of the secondary return flows back up the header and you then get a reduction in the secondary flow temperature. The drain pipe from the tundish on the cylinder has some rules to determine the pipe size, depending on the pipe length and number of elbows. It's usually not a problem, but needs to be considered if the proposed cylinder position is a long way from the final "safe & visible" outlet outside. Otherwise, you can end up with a huge drain pipe or it can be impractical. The cylinder can't be in a basement. Thanks, Aidan. A pleasure. |
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"Aidan" wrote in message om... "John Aston" wrote in message ... OK. I was worried about a drop in the pressure/flow rate. My incoming supply is only 2.8 bar static and 30lpm. It would probably be OK to just relocate the DCV shown. I think the Water Regulations require a DCV on a softener inlet. The mains pressure varies inversely with demand in the neighbourhood during the day, so you'd work on the minimum. The flow rate achieved at the minimum pressure should indicate whether you might need the accumulator. I never knew its effect on copper pipes! I'm surprised they don't mention it It's not something the manufacturers publicise and I don't have any definite information. My understanding is that it's something that can happen, but that the softener isn't always the guilty party. Erosion and bad pipe-fitting have some role. My understanding is that water softened & blended to about 40ppm hardness is fine for all practical purposes and doesn't create the corrosion problems. Softened water can be unpleasant stuff in the wrong place. I think the dissolved calcium salts are mostly changed into sodium carbonate (washing soda?). I've no experience of Kinetico. The last test kit I used was made by Hach, supplied by a company called CamLab. It was a titration test kit (colour change). I've found dip strips can be misleading in some hands (RTFM again). I guess it's set at 3.5 bar to comply with regulations. It might be easier to leave out the downstream PRV. The mains static pressure is only 2.8 bar anyway. I think your original detail & IMM were right (Ow, that hurt!) & I was wrong. The upstream PRV would be set to limit the pressure to the design rating of the accumulator. I once had a discussion with an HSE inspector who expected to see every PRV accompanied by a correctly-sized safety/pressure relief valve to prevent the equipment being over-pressurized in the (quite likely) event of a PRV failure. We were talking about compressed air, but his point is still valid here. I did think about this but (a) The cylinder is less than 8m pipe length from the boiler This seems to be a compromise between the conflicting requirements of supplying the cylinder with sufficiently hot water (to get the stored DHW above 60degC), keeping the boiler return temperature low and avoiding the need for lots of mixing valves. It's outside my experience, so I'll shut up. Yes, you're right. The header is a pre-fabricated assembly. You could fabricate one, it's just pipe & fittings. I'm hoping that these come as part of the manifold from the UFH suppliers Only if you specify them. The flow-rate indicators are an optional extra. They usually become unreadable after a few years, so are only useful for initial balancing. You need to make a record of the settings and keep it in a safe place. Also, you can see on the diagram that I've written MAX. DISTANCE? I can't get any definitive answers There is no maximum, so long as the pump(s) can handle the resistance at the flow rate. The UFH heating circuits have their own individual themostats. Yes, but I was querying why you need a motorized control valve adjacent to the UFH manifolds' mixing valves. If the pipe stat temperature was exceeded, you could stop the pump and/or set the mixing valve to 0%. Are the mixing valves thermostatic or electric? The heat losses would be 31kW. I'm hoping that the additional 7kW will give me some headroom plus a bit for the domestic hot water. An additional 7kW should be lots, check the cylinder manufacturer's spec. You won't need additional capacity if the HWS has priority, as IMM said. I don't like the diverting idea, but I see the need for it. A couple of other points; The DOCs on the heating zones return pipes should be upstream of the IVs. They should drain the zone when the IVs are shut, but will drain the whole system as shown. You have to ensure that the primary flow through the low loss header is greater than the secondary flow at all times. It should be the reverse, even Viessmann say that. The idea is that the secondary circuits will take all of the flow from the header with little going back to the boiler fom the boiler flow (short circuit). The idea is that all the hot water coming into the header from the boiler will be sucked into the secondary circuit. What returns from the header to the boiler should be cooled water from the secondary circuits. If the secondary flow is greater, then some of the secondary return flows back up the header and you then get a reduction in the secondary flow temperature. The drain pipe from the tundish on the cylinder has some rules to determine the pipe size, depending on the pipe length and number of elbows. It's usually not a problem, but needs to be considered if the proposed cylinder position is a long way from the final "safe & visible" outlet outside. Otherwise, you can end up with a huge drain pipe or it can be impractical. The cylinder can't be in a basement. Thanks, Aidan. A pleasure. |
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Aidan wrote in message om... "John Aston" wrote in message ... snip comments - thanks for these The UFH heating circuits have their own individual themostats. Yes, but I was querying why you need a motorized control valve adjacent to the UFH manifolds' mixing valves. If the pipe stat temperature was exceeded, you could stop the pump and/or set the mixing valve to 0%. Are the mixing valves thermostatic or electric? I put the valve in because the UFH supplier has one shown on his manifold drawing. You're right about simply stopping the pump though... The mixing valve is thermostatic, so flow control should be via the pump. A couple of other points; snip Thanks, Aidan. For the benefit of The Wall, I've posted a revised drawing at http://tinyurl.com/5lx84 (although it has one DCV too many). |
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#15
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"John Aston" wrote in message .. . Aidan wrote in message om... "John Aston" wrote in message ... snip comments - thanks for these The UFH heating circuits have their own individual themostats. Yes, but I was querying why you need a motorized control valve adjacent to the UFH manifolds' mixing valves. If the pipe stat temperature was exceeded, you could stop the pump and/or set the mixing valve to 0%. Are the mixing valves thermostatic or electric? I put the valve in because the UFH supplier has one shown on his manifold drawing. You're right about simply stopping the pump though... The mixing valve is thermostatic, so flow control should be via the pump. A couple of other points; snip Thanks, Aidan. For the benefit of The Wall, I've posted a revised drawing at http://tinyurl.com/5lx84 (although it has one DCV too many). I can't see much which has been revised. Still lots to do to get it right. |
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#16
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"John Aston" wrote in message .. . Thanks for your help to date. I've distilled the advice from various threads in this newsgroup to come up with a possible heating design for my house. The drawing HD01 at http://tinyurl.com/3zv2g shows the proposed hydraulic design for a large domestic heating system. The boiler and hot water cylinder is on the left hand side of the drawing, space heating is on the right. (You might need to rotate the view so that the drawing is in landscape orientation in your browser) Aiden has highlighted some points, so I will not go over them. Some observations and Qs: Firstly, what drawing package did you use, Visio? The boiler appears to be a Veissmann with an in-built outside weather compensator with the temp sensor in the low loss header. If the compensator slope is set to the UFH, it will not be suitable for the rads. You would require the low loss header to be on the minimum temp that the rads take, which means a higher temperature for the boiler to operate on making it less efficient. If you set the compensator slope for the higher temp rads, each the UFH zone will control itself on its own mixer controls, set to maximum of 55C. You could use a dual temp boiler as the Eco-Hometec, or a simple boiler maintaining a hot low loss header at a high temp. This is what is done with non-compensating boilers where the return temp "has" to be high. So, as you have it the rads will not go about 55C. The mains water from the accumulator. As you have done in splitting the DHW supply to the cylinder after the accumulator, and cold water. But! have all cold taps off one leg. On the other supply only the cylinder. With the exception of just before the cylinder have the cold supplies to the showers only. Have only one pressure reducing valve as mixers require equal pressure on each inlet line. Using an accumulator means you only need cheap shower mixers. If you assess the heating requirement to 32Kw then stick to this, or the nearest to, depending on price. No need to go over for DHW as you have a priority system. This diverts all the boilers heat to the cylinder. Make sure the cylinder is quick recovery. Unvented cylinders are never as quick as vented or thermal stores. The coils are restricted so as not to generate too much pressure inside. Do you still intend to have two stage heating? UFH with rads boosting? Yiou have 5 UFH ziones. Where will the rads fit in relating to these zones? Back to having differing temps for rads and UFH. As it is, efficiency is compromised by the high temp rad circuits. You have an efficient expensive boiler not performing to maximum potential. Look at the low loss header on the diagram. Replace this with a heat bank/thermal store. Off the bottom UFH section of the thermal store have the UFH circuits. Off the high temp top section have the rads and DHW. You may want to have three sections: top DHW, middle rads, bottom UFH. Then you have all circuits coming into a neutral point, the heat bank. Now you have greater control of temperatures, dividing and ruling, which means the boiler will not be running at too high a temperature to suit only the rads compromising efficiency. An outside weather compensator can be on the UFH section to keep this part of the store at the ideal high efficient low temperature and prevent boiler cycling. You may want a compensator on a heat bank mid section serving the rads (UFH & rads have different slopes). Using a heat bank, a far cheaper and simpler boiler may be used. Having three sections means that in summer, only the DHW top section is heated, not the whole store, saving on standing losses. Using a heat bank immersions may be fitted in the different temperature sections. So, if there is a boiler outage you can run the whole system, heating and DHW off electricity. You can't do that with a boiler connected via a low loss heater. Towel rails: These can be teed in before the diverter valve at the boiler, between valve and pump and direct to the return. They will then work in summer, but only when the cylinder or heat bank is being re-heated, which is fine for summer use. If you take a shower and the boiler kicks in the re-heat you will find the towels are hot on the rails. Accumulator: If they will not sell unless they supply the unvented cylinder (they would sell one separately to me), keep a tank in the loft and have a booster pump serving a heat bank. This is a cheaper an simpler option too. The tank does not need to be in the loft. It can be anywhere as it is pumped. It would be interesting to see what the Yanks say. They don't do thermal stores in a big way there and thinking tends to be 1950ish, so only regard what they say as interest only. Simpler Alternative: 1. Low Temp Circuit: One dedicated condensing boiler serving the UFH only on a weather compensator. Simple, separate and sorted. 2. High temp circuit. Another boiler using a 3-way diverter valve serving DHW and rads. You may want a weather compensator switching the boikler to give the ideal temp for the rads. When DHW is called the boiler runs up to max temp. This is similar to normal domestic setup. 3. A controller staging in the UFH and rads to give precise control of room temps. UFH 1st stage. 4. Backup: Now you have heating backup if one boiler drops out. Electrical backup for DHW. 5. Cold water storage tank instead of an accumulator with a booster pump. Tank can be fitted anywhere. 6. The cylinder can be: a) An unvented version, b) A DHW only heat bank, such the DPS Pandora, which does requires an overflow so can be fitted anywhere in the house. You will find that two condensing boilers can be had for less than the price of the Viessmann, and lots of change too. |
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#17
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"IMM" wrote in message ... "John Aston" wrote in message .. . Thanks for your help to date. I've distilled the advice from various threads in this newsgroup to come up with a possible heating design for my house. The drawing HD01 at http://tinyurl.com/3zv2g shows the proposed hydraulic design for a large domestic heating system. The boiler and hot water cylinder is on the left hand side of the drawing, space heating is on the right. (You might need to rotate the view so that the drawing is in landscape orientation in your browser) Aiden has highlighted some points, so I will not go over them. Some observations and Qs: Firstly, what drawing package did you use, Visio? The boiler appears to be a Veissmann with an in-built outside weather compensator with the temp sensor in the low loss header. If the compensator slope is set to the UFH, it will not be suitable for the rads. You would require the low loss header to be on the minimum temp that the rads take, which means a higher temperature for the boiler to operate on making it less efficient. If you set the compensator slope for the higher temp rads, each the UFH zone will control itself on its own mixer controls, set to maximum of 55C. You could use a dual temp boiler as the Eco-Hometec, or a simple boiler maintaining a hot low loss header at a high temp. This is what is done with non-compensating boilers where the return temp "has" to be high. So, as you have it the rads will not go about 55C. The mains water from the accumulator. As you have done in splitting the DHW supply to the cylinder after the accumulator, and cold water. But! have all cold taps off one leg. On the other supply only the cylinder. With the exception of just before the cylinder have the cold supplies to the showers only. Have only one pressure reducing valve as mixers require equal pressure on each inlet line. Using an accumulator means you only need cheap shower mixers. If you assess the heating requirement to 32Kw then stick to this, or the nearest to, depending on price. No need to go over for DHW as you have a priority system. This diverts all the boilers heat to the cylinder. Make sure the cylinder is quick recovery. Unvented cylinders are never as quick as vented or thermal stores. The coils are restricted so as not to generate too much pressure inside. Do you still intend to have two stage heating? UFH with rads boosting? Yiou have 5 UFH ziones. Where will the rads fit in relating to these zones? Back to having differing temps for rads and UFH. As it is, efficiency is compromised by the high temp rad circuits. You have an efficient expensive boiler not performing to maximum potential. Look at the low loss header on the diagram. Replace this with a heat bank/thermal store. Off the bottom UFH section of the thermal store have the UFH circuits. Off the high temp top section have the rads and DHW. You may want to have three sections: top DHW, middle rads, bottom UFH. Then you have all circuits coming into a neutral point, the heat bank. Now you have greater control of temperatures, dividing and ruling, which means the boiler will not be running at too high a temperature to suit only the rads compromising efficiency. An outside weather compensator can be on the UFH section to keep this part of the store at the ideal high efficient low temperature and prevent boiler cycling. You may want a compensator on a heat bank mid section serving the rads (UFH & rads have different slopes). Using a heat bank, a far cheaper and simpler boiler may be used. Having three sections means that in summer, only the DHW top section is heated, not the whole store, saving on standing losses. Using a heat bank immersions may be fitted in the different temperature sections. So, if there is a boiler outage you can run the whole system, heating and DHW off electricity. You can't do that with a boiler connected via a low loss heater. I forgot to mention. Insert two low loss headers would not cure this problem. A priority system would need to be in place favouring the rads. The problem is that the headers do not contain enough mass. In a heat bank the top rad section could re-heated rapidly and left for while for the rads to extract the heat. One up to temp it reverts to UFH temps and heat the lower section. So it would switch from UFH to rads with long intervals between. This cannot be done with a small mass header. In effect a heat bank is a very large header Towel rails: These can be teed in before the diverter valve at the boiler, between valve and pump and direct to the return. They will then work in summer, but only when the cylinder or heat bank is being re-heated, which is fine for summer use. If you take a shower and the boiler kicks in the re-heat you will find the towels are hot on the rails. Accumulator: If they will not sell unless they supply the unvented cylinder (they would sell one separately to me), keep a tank in the loft and have a booster pump serving a heat bank. This is a cheaper an simpler option too. The tank does not need to be in the loft. It can be anywhere as it is pumped. It would be interesting to see what the Yanks say. They don't do thermal stores in a big way there and thinking tends to be 1950ish, so only regard what they say as interest only. Simpler Alternative: 1. Low Temp Circuit: One dedicated condensing boiler serving the UFH only on a weather compensator. Simple, separate and sorted. 2. High temp circuit. Another boiler using a 3-way diverter valve serving DHW and rads. You may want a weather compensator switching the boikler to give the ideal temp for the rads. When DHW is called the boiler runs up to max temp. This is similar to normal domestic setup. 3. A controller staging in the UFH and rads to give precise control of room temps. UFH 1st stage. 4. Backup: Now you have heating backup if one boiler drops out. Electrical backup for DHW. 5. Cold water storage tank instead of an accumulator with a booster pump. Tank can be fitted anywhere. 6. The cylinder can be: a) An unvented version, b) A DHW only heat bank, such the DPS Pandora, which does requires an overflow so can be fitted anywhere in the house. You will find that two condensing boilers can be had for less than the price of the Viessmann, and lots of change too. |
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#18
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IMM wrote in message ... "John Aston" wrote in message .. . Thanks for your help to date. I've distilled the advice from various threads in this newsgroup to come up with a possible heating design for my house. The drawing HD01 at http://tinyurl.com/3zv2g shows the proposed hydraulic design for a large domestic heating system. The boiler and hot water cylinder is on the left hand side of the drawing, space heating is on the right. (You might need to rotate the view so that the drawing is in landscape orientation in your browser) Aiden has highlighted some points, so I will not go over them. Some observations and Qs: Firstly, what drawing package did you use, Visio? CorelDraw 6. Not a great program but I'm used to it. The boiler appears to be a Veissmann with an in-built outside weather compensator with the temp sensor in the low loss header. If the compensator slope is set to the UFH, it will not be suitable for the rads. You would require the low loss header to be on the minimum temp that the rads take, which means a higher temperature for the boiler to operate on making it less efficient. If you set the compensator slope for the higher temp rads, each the UFH zone will control itself on its own mixer controls, set to maximum of 55C. The compensator slope is set for the rads. The UFH is on all the time with a flow temp of 55°C maximum, modulated down by the thermostatic mixing valve on each manifold. The radiator temperature is determined by the outside temperature. You could use a dual temp boiler as the Eco-Hometec, or a simple boiler maintaining a hot low loss header at a high temp. This is what is done with non-compensating boilers where the return temp "has" to be high. So, as you have it the rads will not go about 55C. So I will avoid the non-compensating boiler and consider a boiler where the flow temperature is modulated between 50°C and 70°C, say (this can be adjusted). Therefore, the radiator flow temperature is between 50°C and 70°C. The thermostatic mixers keep the water through the UFH at 55°C or less. snip - understood Do you still intend to have two stage heating? UFH with rads boosting? Yiou have 5 UFH ziones. Where will the rads fit in relating to these zones? Yes. UFH as the primary heat source, with the rads on when it's cold. The colder it gets, the warmer the flow through the rads. There are two UFH manifolds (one for the ground floor, one for first floor + attic). The rads are in every room. When it's reasonably warm outside, only the UFH is on. When it gets cold, the rads come on. As it gets colder still, the temperature in the rads starts to increase. Here are two situations to demonstrate the weather compensation for my house at 20°C inside: When the temperature outside is -3°C, the boiler temperature is 70°C, the mean water-to-air temperature in the radiators is (almost) 40°C and the water into the UFH manifold is 55°C. Under these conditions, a heat loss of 31kW from the house of is met by the UFH output of 17kW plus the combined radiator output of 14kW. When the temperature outside rises to +3°C, the boiler temperature falls to 55°C, the mean water-to-air temperature in the radiators is (almost) 25°C and the water into the UFH manifold is 55°C. Under these conditions, a heat loss of 24kW from the house is met by the UFH output of 17kW plus the combined radiator output of 7kW. (I derated the rads by 50% for a 15° fall in mean water-to-air temperature. I hope that's suitably conservative.) This means that the temperature of the water flowing into the radiator is equal to to the temperature of the water flowing into the UFH when it's above 3°C outside. I'm hoping, therefore, that most of the time I won't have two different temperatures serving the two types of heat sources. Back to having differing temps for rads and UFH. As it is, efficiency is compromised by the high temp rad circuits. You have an efficient expensive boiler not performing to maximum potential. Look at the low loss header on the diagram. Replace this with a heat bank/thermal store. Off the bottom UFH section of the thermal store have the UFH circuits. Off the high temp top section have the rads and DHW. You may want to have three sections: top DHW, middle rads, bottom UFH. Then you have all circuits coming into a neutral point, the heat bank. Now you have greater control of temperatures, dividing and ruling, which means the boiler will not be running at too high a temperature to suit only the rads compromising efficiency. An outside weather compensator can be on the UFH section to keep this part of the store at the ideal high efficient low temperature and prevent boiler cycling. You may want a compensator on a heat bank mid section serving the rads (UFH & rads have different slopes). Using a heat bank, a far cheaper and simpler boiler may be used. Having three sections means that in summer, only the DHW top section is heated, not the whole store, saving on standing losses. Using a heat bank immersions may be fitted in the different temperature sections. So, if there is a boiler outage you can run the whole system, heating and DHW off electricity. You can't do that with a boiler connected via a low loss heater. Towel rails: These can be teed in before the diverter valve at the boiler, between valve and pump and direct to the return. They will then work in summer, but only when the cylinder or heat bank is being re-heated, which is fine for summer use. If you take a shower and the boiler kicks in the re-heat you will find the towels are hot on the rails. I understand. I guess this assumes that the header has been replaced by the heat store. (The header would be a very low resistance compared to the towel rails.) Accumulator: If they will not sell unless they supply the unvented cylinder (they would sell one separately to me), keep a tank in the loft and have a booster pump serving a heat bank. This is a cheaper an simpler option too. The tank does not need to be in the loft. It can be anywhere as it is pumped. It would be interesting to see what the Yanks say. They don't do thermal stores in a big way there and thinking tends to be 1950ish, so only regard what they say as interest only. Simpler Alternative: 1. Low Temp Circuit: One dedicated condensing boiler serving the UFH only on a weather compensator. Simple, separate and sorted. 2. High temp circuit. Another boiler using a 3-way diverter valve serving DHW and rads. You may want a weather compensator switching the boikler to give the ideal temp for the rads. When DHW is called the boiler runs up to max temp. This is similar to normal domestic setup. 3. A controller staging in the UFH and rads to give precise control of room temps. UFH 1st stage. 4. Backup: Now you have heating backup if one boiler drops out. Electrical backup for DHW. 5. Cold water storage tank instead of an accumulator with a booster pump. Tank can be fitted anywhere. 6. The cylinder can be: a) An unvented version, b) A DHW only heat bank, such the DPS Pandora, which does requires an overflow so can be fitted anywhere in the house. You will find that two condensing boilers can be had for less than the price of the Viessmann, and lots of change too. Thank you for taking the time to compose this reply, I appreciate your thoughts. I believe that I understand the principle of the heat store and the principle of a modulating boiler. They both have their advantages. I'll get some prices together and put my best foot forward. |
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#19
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"John Aston" wrote in message .. . IMM wrote in message ... "John Aston" wrote in message .. . Thanks for your help to date. I've distilled the advice from various threads in this newsgroup to come up with a possible heating design for my house. The drawing HD01 at http://tinyurl.com/3zv2g shows the proposed hydraulic design for a large domestic heating system. The boiler and hot water cylinder is on the left hand side of the drawing, space heating is on the right. (You might need to rotate the view so that the drawing is in landscape orientation in your browser) Aiden has highlighted some points, so I will not go over them. Some observations and Qs: Firstly, what drawing package did you use, Visio? CorelDraw 6. Not a great program but I'm used to it. The boiler appears to be a Veissmann with an in-built outside weather compensator with the temp sensor in the low loss header. If the compensator slope is set to the UFH, it will not be suitable for the rads. You would require the low loss header to be on the minimum temp that the rads take, which means a higher temperature for the boiler to operate on making it less efficient. If you set the compensator slope for the higher temp rads, each the UFH zone will control itself on its own mixer controls, set to maximum of 55C. The compensator slope is set for the rads. The UFH is on all the time with a flow temp of 55°C maximum, modulated down by the thermostatic mixing valve on each manifold. The radiator temperature is determined by the outside temperature. It is as I suspected not taking full advantage of the boilers efficiency. The UFH is running all the time and the rads occasionally, yet the boiler is set to for maximum efficiency on the high temp rads. You could use a dual temp boiler as the Eco-Hometec, or a simple boiler maintaining a hot low loss header at a high temp. This is what is done with non-compensating boilers where the return temp "has" to be high. So, as you have it the rads will not go about 55C. So I will avoid the non-compensating boiler and consider a boiler where the flow temperature is modulated between 50°C and 70°C, say (this can be adjusted). Therefore, the radiator flow temperature is between 50°C and 70°C. The thermostatic mixers keep the water through the UFH at 55°C or less. Typo on my part. Should have been non-condensing. A weather compensator can be on the rads circuit too. A weather compensator can be an external controller rather than an internal one (integrated with the boiler). Danfoss Randall make one for around £160. snip - understood Do you still intend to have two stage heating? UFH with rads boosting? You have 5 UFH zones. Where will the rads fit in relating to these zones? Yes. UFH as the primary heat source, with the rads on when it's cold. The colder it gets, the warmer the flow through the rads. Weather compensation. There are two UFH manifolds (one for the ground floor, one for first floor + attic). The rads are in every room. When it's reasonably warm outside, only the UFH is on. When it gets cold, the rads come on. As it gets colder still, the temperature in the rads starts to increase. Here are two situations to demonstrate the weather compensation for my house at 20°C inside: When the temperature outside is -3°C, the boiler temperature is 70°C, the mean water-to-air temperature in the radiators is (almost) 40°C and the water into the UFH manifold is 55°C. Under these conditions, a heat loss of 31kW from the house of is met by the UFH output of 17kW plus the combined radiator output of 14kW. When the temperature outside rises to +3°C, the boiler temperature falls to 55°C, the mean water-to-air temperature in the radiators is (almost) 25°C and the water into the UFH manifold is 55°C. Under these conditions, a heat loss of 24kW from the house is met by the UFH output of 17kW plus the combined radiator output of 7kW. (I derated the rads by 50% for a 15° fall in mean water-to-air temperature. I hope that's suitably conservative.) This means that the temperature of the water flowing into the radiator is equal to to the temperature of the water flowing into the UFH when it's above 3°C outside. I'm hoping, therefore, that most of the time I won't have two different temperatures serving the two types of heat sources. Having two different temperatures for rads and UFH is the way. Back to having differing temps for rads and UFH. As it is, efficiency is compromised by the high temp rad circuits. You have an efficient expensive boiler not performing to maximum potential. Look at the low loss header on the diagram. Replace this with a heat bank/thermal store. Off the bottom UFH section of the thermal store have the UFH circuits. Off the high temp top section have the rads and DHW. You may want to have three sections: top DHW, middle rads, bottom UFH. Then you have all circuits coming into a neutral point, the heat bank. Now you have greater control of temperatures, dividing and ruling, which means the boiler will not be running at too high a temperature to suit only the rads compromising efficiency. An outside weather compensator can be on the UFH section to keep this part of the store at the ideal high efficient low temperature and prevent boiler cycling. You may want a compensator on a heat bank mid section serving the rads (UFH & rads have different slopes). Using a heat bank, a far cheaper and simpler boiler may be used. Having three sections means that in summer, only the DHW top section is heated, not the whole store, saving on standing losses. Using a heat bank immersions may be fitted in the different temperature sections. So, if there is a boiler outage you can run the whole system, heating and DHW off electricity. You can't do that with a boiler connected via a low loss heater. Towel rails: These can be teed in before the diverter valve at the boiler, between valve and pump and direct to the return. They will then work in summer, but only when the cylinder or heat bank is being re-heated, which is fine for summer use. If you take a shower and the boiler kicks in the re-heat you will find the towels are hot on the rails. I understand. I guess this assumes that the header has been replaced by the heat store. Yes. The store also serves the DHW too. So it replaces the header and serves DHW, UFH and rads and prevents boiler cycling. (The header would be a very low resistance compared to the towel rails.) That is so. Accumulator: If they will not sell unless they supply the unvented cylinder (they would sell one separately to me), keep a tank in the loft and have a booster pump serving a heat bank. This is a cheaper an simpler option too. The tank does not need to be in the loft. It can be anywhere as it is pumped. It would be interesting to see what the Yanks say. They don't do thermal stores in a big way there and thinking tends to be 1950ish, so only regard what they say as interest only. Simpler Alternative: 1. Low Temp Circuit: One dedicated condensing boiler serving the UFH only on a weather compensator. Simple, separate and sorted. 2. High temp circuit. Another boiler using a 3-way diverter valve serving DHW and rads. You may want a weather compensator switching the boikler to give the ideal temp for the rads. When DHW is called the boiler runs up to max temp. This is similar to normal domestic setup. 3. A controller staging in the UFH and rads to give precise control of room temps. UFH 1st stage. 4. Backup: Now you have heating backup if one boiler drops out. Electrical backup for DHW. 5. Cold water storage tank instead of an accumulator with a booster pump. Tank can be fitted anywhere. 6. The cylinder can be: a) An unvented version, b) A DHW only heat bank, such the DPS Pandora, which does requires an overflow so can be fitted anywhere in the house. You will find that two condensing boilers can be had for less than the price of the Viessmann, and lots of change too. Thank you for taking the time to compose this reply, I appreciate your thoughts. I believe that I understand the principle of the heat store and the principle of a modulating boiler. They both have their advantages. I'll get some prices together and put my best foot forward. In your case with having three differing functions of different temperatures a heat bank is the ideal way to supply those temperatures promoting maximum efficiency from the boiler. The most efficient, and easiest, is having two boilers as described above. |
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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:52:49 -0000, "IMM" wrote:
Typo on my part. Should have been non-condensing. A weather compensator can be on the rads circuit too. A weather compensator can be an external controller rather than an internal one (integrated with the boiler). Danfoss Randall make one for around £160. This is a poor way to do it because these controllers work by turning the boiler on and off for variable periods. Yes. The store also serves the DHW too. So it replaces the header and serves DHW, UFH and rads and prevents boiler cycling. The cycling issue is a corner case and is irrelevant for the types of boiler under consideration. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#21
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:52:49 -0000, "IMM" wrote: Typo on my part. Should have been non-condensing. A weather compensator can be on the rads circuit too. A weather compensator can be an external controller rather than an internal one (integrated with the boiler). Danfoss Randall make one for around £160. This is a poor way to do it because these controllers work by turning the boiler on and off for variable periods. It is not a poor way of doing it. Anti-cycle control is incorporated in most boilers and the compensator. I have had one switch a boiler for eons and there is no excessive cycling at all. Coupled to a large mass of water, like a heat bank, and cycling will be minimal to the point it is not an issue. If the UFH heating is being run directly from a boiler dedicated to that function then there are boilers around a lot cheaper with integral weather compensation as an extra, that will modulate down on the compensator control. Yes. The store also serves the DHW too. So it replaces the header and serves DHW, UFH and rads and prevents boiler cycling. The cycling issue is a corner case and is irrelevant for the types of boiler under consideration. Once using a thermal store this expensive boiler is then not an issue. A cheaper simpler boiler can be used, that is one of the selling points of thermal stores/heat banks. In this case with three functions: DHW, UFH and rads, all operating on different temperatures, a heat bank/thermal store is by far the best solution, maximising boioer efficiency. |
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#22
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"IMM" wrote in message ... "John Aston" wrote in message .. . Thank you for taking the time to compose this reply, I appreciate your thoughts. I believe that I understand the principle of the heat store and the principle of a modulating boiler. They both have their advantages. I'll get some prices together and put my best foot forward. In your case with having three differing functions of different temperatures a heat bank is the ideal way to supply those temperatures promoting maximum efficiency from the boiler. The most efficient, and easiest, is having two boilers as described above. IMM, leaving my particular case to one side, may I ask in what application would you recommend the use of a weather-compensated modulating boiler? |
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#23
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"John Aston" wrote in message
... In your case with having three differing functions of different temperatures a heat bank is the ideal way to supply those temperatures promoting maximum efficiency from the boiler. The most efficient, and easiest, is having two boilers as described above. IMM, leaving my particular case to one side, may I ask in what application would you recommend the use of a weather-compensated modulating boiler? Firstly, having a dedicated boiler for distinct functions is the ideal method: DHW, UFH, rads. Separate dedicated functions easy to control and design. That was the way in ye olden times. But in ye olden days boilers were expensive and very large, so quickly they found ways of joining up all the various circuits: DHW, rads, fan coil unit circuits etc. They devised methods using headers, buffers (thermal store) etc. All this was a compromise to tap into one source of heat, the boiler. It worked well because the boilers had to operate at high temperature because they were non-condensing. High temperatures water was on tap and the varios circuits tapped off it blending it down when necessary for the various circuit functions. In commercial applications they could then have two sequenced boilers, bringing in both or just one, or none, depending on heat demand, and a spare boiler if one is down. All was fine and dandy and things went along like that for decades. These sort of systems are still in the mindset of many designers today, designing the total system to the highest temp required in a sub-system. Then condensing boilers came along offering high efficinencies the lower the return temp. This required a re-think. With a simple two function system of say: DHW and UFH you could have the boiler on a weather compensator serving the UFH to the lowest temps for high efficient operation. If DHW is called, a 3-way diverter sends all the boilers heat to the cylinder (must be quick recovery) while ramping up the boiler temp to maximum for the high temp DHW requies and rapid DHW re-heat. When more than one function is thrown in, with all three, or more, requiring different operating temps, as in the rads of your system, matters become a little complicated when the aim is to keep the boiler running at the lowest return temperature for maximum efficiency. Also, boilers became smaller and smaller and cheaper and cheaper. This then made the dedicated function boiler a cost effective reality. To implement a condensing boiler system to maxiumum efficiency, running it at the lowest temps for most of the time, it becomes more expensive in ancilliry equipment and controls, and complicated, as you have seen in attempting to get a solution. The best solution was thermal store/heat bank with dedicated sections, or zones, for the various functions (DHW, UFH, rads) down the store with these sections providing exactly the the right temperature for the functions. The boiler only heating one of these sections at a time to the lowest temperature for that function - ideal, and sorted. Back to your question. "what application would you recommend the use of a weather-compensated modulating boiler?" If you have one function, say just rads or UFH then it is ideal. It is also ideal for two functions, but a priorty system is required, with the highest temp having priority with boiler cycling eliminated. A thermal store can supply a buffer of water to eliminate this, as you don't want the system cycling from one function (UFH) to the other (rads or UFH) every couple of minutes. The answer: 1. One dedicated function (like rads or UFH) 2. Two functions like UFH and DHW (only if the system is designed properly to a priority system). To go further......... As I have said, in your case it is worth costing up: 1. Low Temp Circuit: One dedicated condensing boiler serving the UFH only on a weather compensator. Simple, separate and sorted. A number of makers supply integrated weather compensated boilers, as an extra. Viessmann, MAN, etc, are very expesnive and will probably have far more control functionallity than what you need. They are very good and the RRs of boilers, with price to match. Very good boilers are available from reputable makers much cheaper. 2. High temp circuit. Another boiler using a 3-way diverter valve serving DHW and rads with DHW priority. You may want a weather compensator maintaining boiler to the lowest temp the rads require. When DHW is called the boiler runs up to max temp. This is similar to normal domestic setup. 3. A controller staging in the UFH and rads to give precise seamless control of room temps. UFH 1st stage, rads 2nd. 4. Backup: Now you have heating backup if one boiler drops out. Electrical backup for DHW in the cylidner or heat bank cylinder. 6. The cylinder can be: a) An unvented version, b) A DHW only heat bank, such the DPS Pandora, which doe not require an overflow so can be fitted anywhere in the house and will take high pressures way above 3.5 bar. You will find that two condensing boilers can be had for less than the price of the Viessmann, and lots of change too. |
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#24
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IMM wrote in message ...
It would be interesting to see what the Yanks say. They don't do thermal stores in a big way there and thinking tends to be 1950ish, so only regard what they say as interest only. It's posted at http://tinyurl.com/6ff4u |
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#25
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"IMM" wrote in message ...
"John Aston" wrote in message .. . snip Simpler Alternative: 1. Low Temp Circuit: One dedicated condensing boiler serving the UFH only on a weather compensator. Simple, separate and sorted. 2. High temp circuit. Another boiler using a 3-way diverter valve serving DHW and rads. You may want a weather compensator switching the boikler to give the ideal temp for the rads. Do you mean that the weather compensator changes the boiler setpoint according to the outdoor temperature? If so, which (good quality) boilers have this feature, please? When DHW is called the boiler runs up to max temp. This is similar to normal domestic setup. 3. A controller staging in the UFH and rads to give precise control of room temps. UFH 1st stage. 4. Backup: Now you have heating backup if one boiler drops out. Electrical backup for DHW. 5. Cold water storage tank instead of an accumulator with a booster pump. Tank can be fitted anywhere. 6. The cylinder can be: a) An unvented version, b) A DHW only heat bank, such the DPS Pandora, which does requires an overflow so can be fitted anywhere in the house. You will find that two condensing boilers can be had for less than the price of the Viessmann, and lots of change too. For an inexpensive condensing boiler, if the resistance of the load is greater than the boiler pump's residual head, can I simply put an external pump in series with the flow output? |
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#26
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"John Aston" wrote in message om... "IMM" wrote in message ... Simpler Alternative: 1. Low Temp Circuit: One dedicated condensing boiler serving the UFH only on a weather compensator. Simple, separate and sorted. 2. High temp circuit. Another boiler using a 3-way diverter valve serving DHW and rads. You may want a weather compensator switching the boiler to give the ideal temp for the rads. Do you mean that the weather compensator changes the boiler setpoint according to the outdoor temperature? Yes. If so, which (good quality) boilers have this feature, please? The Veissmann you have been looking at. The MAN (Eco-Hometec). Cheaper is the Ferroli MaXima 35 S which incorporates a weather compensator and geared for UFH. A quick Google shows this for £625 + VAT, so well priced and a good boiler too. http://www.ferroli.co.uk/ A stand alone weather compensator can be bought for around £160, which will switch in and out a boiler to the dictates of the weather compensator. This can be used on cheaper good quality boilers: Worcester-Bosch, Glow Worm, Ideal, etc. The boilers with integrated weather compensators modulate the burner to suit. When DHW is called the boiler runs up to max temp. This is similar to normal domestic setup. 3. A controller staging in the UFH and rads to give precise control of room temps. UFH 1st stage. 4. Backup: Now you have heating backup if one boiler drops out. Electrical backup for DHW. 5. Cold water storage tank instead of an accumulator with a booster pump. Tank can be fitted anywhere. 6. The cylinder can be: a) An unvented version, b) A DHW only heat bank, such the DPS Pandora, which doesn't requires an overflow so can be fitted anywhere in the house. You will find that two condensing boilers can be had for less than the price of the Viessmann, and lots of change too. For an inexpensive condensing boiler, if the resistance of the load is greater than the boiler pump's residual head, Where did you get that from? Cheaper doesn't mean smaller. can I simply put an external pump in series with the flow output? Yes, but a boiler of around 25kw for your needs will do fine. Your setup. If a boiler is only doing UFH, then no 3-way valve is required and the boiler is set to 55C max temp, and the weather compensator raises and lowers the boiler temp. Totally direct. Now a system boiler has an integral pump and will switch this off when the burner is switched off (there may be a run on for overheat). You want the pump on all the time. So a heating boiler that comes without a pump is probably the best option. The weather compensator switches the burner and the pump always running. Some of the expensive boilers that take into account UFH may keep the pump running. |
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#27
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Thanks to everyone who contributed heating design ideas.
The design is finalised and I am considering placement of the components. I plan to put the 40kW condensing boiler (Keston C40) and cylinder in a cupboard at one end of the bathroom. At the opposite end of the bathroom, 4m away, is the adjoining wall with my bedroom. Is the boiler likely to keep me awake at night if I put it in this location? |
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#28
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"John Aston" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks to everyone who contributed heating design ideas. The design is finalised and I am considering placement of the components. I plan to put the 40kW condensing boiler (Keston C40) and cylinder in a cupboard at one end of the bathroom. At the opposite end of the bathroom, 4m away, is the adjoining wall with my bedroom. Is the boiler likely to keep me awake at night if I put it in this location? Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and flimsey. You make need draught stip on the doors to prevent sopunds getting oit. It does work. Two Keston Celisus boilers are near the price of one 40kW Keston. |
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#29
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On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:09:39 -0000, "IMM" wrote:
"John Aston" wrote in message roups.com... Thanks to everyone who contributed heating design ideas. The design is finalised and I am considering placement of the components. I plan to put the 40kW condensing boiler (Keston C40) and cylinder in a cupboard at one end of the bathroom. At the opposite end of the bathroom, 4m away, is the adjoining wall with my bedroom. Is the boiler likely to keep me awake at night if I put it in this location? Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and flimsey. You make need draught stip on the doors to prevent sopunds getting oit. It does work. Two Keston Celisus boilers are near the price of one 40kW Keston. You've been quiet for the last few days. Been ill or ? -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#30
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:09:39 -0000, "IMM" wrote: "John Aston" wrote in message roups.com... Thanks to everyone who contributed heating design ideas. The design is finalised and I am considering placement of the components. I plan to put the 40kW condensing boiler (Keston C40) and cylinder in a cupboard at one end of the bathroom. At the opposite end of the bathroom, 4m away, is the adjoining wall with my bedroom. Is the boiler likely to keep me awake at night if I put it in this location? Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and flimsey. You make need draught stip on the doors to prevent sopunds getting oit. It does work. Two Keston Celisus boilers are near the price of one 40kW Keston. You've been quiet for the last few days. Been ill or ? Leave him alone! Rarely is such lyrical prose posted here.. I love the idea of sopunds getting oit. ;o) -- Bob Mannix (anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not) |
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#31
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"...sopunds getting oit."
Sounds like a line from 'The Jabberwocky'. The lad has a great future in nonsense verse. His nonsense prose won't catch on, though. Whether it would keep you awake? It depends on how noisy it is (I've no idea) and how lightly you sleep (no idea). There is very little background noise at, say, 4 a.m. when the boiler might fire up. 'Inaudible' sounds are much more intrusive. I know a gas fitter who put a boiler in his loft, but found it woke him up every morning. That was a few years back, boilers may be quieter now. |
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#32
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:09:39 -0000, "IMM" wrote: "John Aston" wrote in message roups.com... Thanks to everyone who contributed heating design ideas. The design is finalised and I am considering placement of the components. I plan to put the 40kW condensing boiler (Keston C40) and cylinder in a cupboard at one end of the bathroom. At the opposite end of the bathroom, 4m away, is the adjoining wall with my bedroom. Is the boiler likely to keep me awake at night if I put it in this location? Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and flimsey. You make need draught stip on the doors to prevent sopunds getting oit. It does work. Two Keston Celisus boilers are near the price of one 40kW Keston. You've been quiet for the last few days. Been ill or ? I'm as right as rain. I have been abroad jet setting. |
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#33
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In message , IMM
writes Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and flimsey. You make need draught stip on the doors to prevent sopunds getting oit. It does work. Two Keston Celisus boilers are near the price of one 40kW Keston. You've been quiet for the last few days. Been ill or ? I'm as right as rain. I have been abroad jet setting. Costa del Sol in the cheap season then ? -- geoff |
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#34
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IMM wrote in message
... "John Aston" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks to everyone who contributed heating design ideas. The design is finalised and I am considering placement of the components. I plan to put the 40kW condensing boiler (Keston C40) and cylinder in a cupboard at one end of the bathroom. At the opposite end of the bathroom, 4m away, is the adjoining wall with my bedroom. Is the boiler likely to keep me awake at night if I put it in this location? Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and flimsey. You make need draught stip on the doors to prevent sopunds getting oit. It does work. Two Keston Celisus boilers are near the price of one 40kW Keston. I've heard that the Keston boiler is noisier because the flue fan needs to go faster to get the air through a 2 inch flue. Any Keston owners out there care to comment? |
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#35
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"John Aston" wrote in message .. . IMM wrote in message ... "John Aston" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks to everyone who contributed heating design ideas. The design is finalised and I am considering placement of the components. I plan to put the 40kW condensing boiler (Keston C40) and cylinder in a cupboard at one end of the bathroom. At the opposite end of the bathroom, 4m away, is the adjoining wall with my bedroom. Is the boiler likely to keep me awake at night if I put it in this location? Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and flimsey. You make need draught stip on the doors to prevent sopunds getting oit. It does work. Two Keston Celisus boilers are near the price of one 40kW Keston. I've heard that the Keston boiler is noisier because the flue fan needs to go faster to get the air through a 2 inch flue. Any Keston owners out there care to comment? They are a bit on the noisy side. |
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On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:04:56 +0000, John Aston wrote:
IMM wrote in message ... "John Aston" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks to everyone who contributed heating design ideas. The design is finalised and I am considering placement of the components. I plan to put the 40kW condensing boiler (Keston C40) and cylinder in a cupboard at one end of the bathroom. At the opposite end of the bathroom, 4m away, is the adjoining wall with my bedroom. Is the boiler likely to keep me awake at night if I put it in this location? Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and flimsey. You make need draught stip on the doors to prevent sopunds getting oit. It does work. Two Keston Celisus boilers are near the price of one 40kW Keston. I've heard that the Keston boiler is noisier because the flue fan needs to go faster to get the air through a 2 inch flue. Any Keston owners out there care to comment? As a Keston C25 owner and fitter of Keston systems I would say the C25 is nigh on inaudible. The C40 is less quiet and in retrospect I would fit 2x c25 in preference to one C40 - space permitting. However most of the time the C40 would be nowhere near full power, unlikely to operate at night, the noise seems mostly to come from harshness of the bigger burner fan. I'm not sure how you would implement the controls to decide when to use the second boiler. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
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#37
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"Ed Sirett" wrote in message news  On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:04:56 +0000, John Aston wrote: IMM wrote in message ... "John Aston" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks to everyone who contributed heating design ideas. The design is finalised and I am considering placement of the components. I plan to put the 40kW condensing boiler (Keston C40) and cylinder in a cupboard at one end of the bathroom. At the opposite end of the bathroom, 4m away, is the adjoining wall with my bedroom. Is the boiler likely to keep me awake at night if I put it in this location? Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and flimsey. You make need draught stip on the doors to prevent sopunds getting oit. It does work. Two Keston Celisus boilers are near the price of one 40kW Keston. I've heard that the Keston boiler is noisier because the flue fan needs to go faster to get the air through a 2 inch flue. Any Keston owners out there care to comment? As a Keston C25 owner and fitter of Keston systems I would say the C25 is nigh on inaudible. Those I have come across I would not describe as inaudible. Unless they were duffers. They were early units and Keston have done a lot to the Celsius since introduction. |
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#38
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"IMM" wrote in message ... "John Aston" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks to everyone who contributed heating design ideas. The design is finalised and I am considering placement of the components. I plan to put the 40kW condensing boiler (Keston C40) and cylinder in a cupboard at one end of the bathroom. At the opposite end of the bathroom, 4m away, is the adjoining wall with my bedroom. Is the boiler likely to keep me awake at night if I put it in this location? Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and flimsey. You make need draught stip on the doors to prevent sopunds getting oit. It does work. Two Keston Celisus boilers are near the price of one 40kW Keston. Typo. should be.. Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and not flimsey. You make need draught strip on the doors to prevent sounds getting out. It does work. |
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#39
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In article ,
IMM wrote: Typo. should be.. Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and not flimsey. You make need draught strip on the doors to prevent sounds getting out. It does work. Are you absolutely certain the maker allows this boiler to be fitted in what would amount to an air sealed cupboard? -- *Therapy is expensive, poppin' bubble wrap is cheap! You choose. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#40
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , IMM wrote: Typo. should be.. Make sure the cupboard is well sealed and not flimsey. You make need draught strip on the doors to prevent sounds getting out. It does work. Are you absolutely certain the maker allows this boiler to be fitted in what would amount to an air sealed cupboard? If you know anything about boilers, which you don't, they can. Air from outside cools the inside as it enters. Now you know and I'm sure you will forget immediately due to lack of focus. |
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