Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Battery technology will ALWAYS have
the problem of the charging delay.

Not with the new Toshiba batteries it doesn't.

They charge *instantly*? Off a domestic power supply?

extremely sceptical

Trickle on domestic and commercial stations a big zap using
appropriate equipment of course

Aha. So - will this "appropriate equipment" be in every supermarket car
park and at regular intervals up every main road in the country, then?

I recall one idea was to have two battery packs and one trickling in
the garage and one in the car. The packs slotted in. Just an idea
that sounded useful.

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from the spare battery pack. Or do you just
carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?

I've done days that have used more than a full tank plenty of times.
Sometimes, I've done a whole tank with nothing more than a quick fluid-
exchange break.

I can "recharge" 600 miles+ of
70mph range into my current car in less than
five minutes.

Do you tow a tank?

Not at all. It just pours through a hole in the rear wing of my (petrol
turbo auto) car. If mine was the same model but diesel with manual box, you
could easily add 250+ miles to that.

To do that with batteries would require
either an IMMENSELY high charging
current or a MASSIVE decrease in
the current required to run the car.

Nope. The new batteries are very different. Don't judge by what you
are familiar with.

Right. So how long will it take to recharge the battery sufficiently to
give me 600 mile range? Five minutes? Sold. Eight hours? Useless.

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Battery technology will ALWAYS have
the problem of the charging delay.

Not with the new Toshiba batteries it doesn't.

They charge *instantly*? Off a domestic power supply?

extremely sceptical

Trickle on domestic and commercial stations a big zap using
appropriate equipment of course

Aha. So - will this "appropriate equipment"
be in every supermarket car
park and at regular intervals up every main
road in the country, then?

Should be in time. We have petrol al over the place.

I recall one idea was to have two battery packs and one trickling in
the garage and one in the car. The packs slotted in. Just an idea
that sounded useful.

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from
the spare battery pack. Or do you just
carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?

No you go to the local zapping station, you know like you go for petrol. Is
that difficult for you to comprehend?

I've done days that have used more
than a full tank plenty of times.
Sometimes, I've done a whole tank
with nothing more than a quick fluid-
exchange break.

Hard at the wheel eh.

I can "recharge" 600 miles+ of
70mph range into my current car in less than
five minutes.

Do you tow a tank?

Not at all. It just pours through a hole
in the rear wing of my (petrol
turbo auto) car. If mine was the same
model but diesel with manual box, you
could easily add 250+ miles to that.

That is nice but a moot point, as no one needs that range as we don't have
deserts in the UK to cross.

To do that with batteries would require
either an IMMENSELY high charging
current or a MASSIVE decrease in
the current required to run the car.

Nope. The new batteries are
very different. Don't judge by what you
are familiar with.

Right. So how long will it take to recharge
the battery sufficiently to give me 600 mile
range? Five minutes? Sold. Eight hours? Useless.

Well if 200 mile plus is done in 5 minutes, ten...can't you do some basic
sums?

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel says...


A diesel is more like 30-33%. Even 40% is hopeless.

Average mains powered electric power supplies and chargers are only 70%
efficient so it could be argued that an electric car charged through
the mains isn't that much better.

--
Conor

I'm so grateful to the USA for their contribution to the war on terror.
After all, if they hadn't funded the IRA for 30 years, we wouldn't know
what terror was.

"Conor" wrote in message
t...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel says...


A diesel is more like 30-33%. Even 40% is hopeless.

Average mains powered electric power
supplies and chargers are only 70% efficient

Not so. Even if what you say is right these would act like heaters big
enough to heat the house, they would be giving off so much heat.

so it could be argued that an electric car charged through
the mains isn't that much better.

Even at 70% it is nearly twice what a filthy, noisy tractor like diesel is.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Aha. So - will this "appropriate equipment"
be in every supermarket car
park and at regular intervals up every main
road in the country, then?

Should be in time. We have petrol al over the place.

Mmmm. Like LPG is currently available everywhere?

It's the usual Chicken & Egg situation.

Nobody's going to buy an electric car without recharging stations widely
available.

Nobody's going to open thousands of recharging stations without plenty
of customers.

I recall one idea was to have two battery packs and one trickling in
the garage and one in the car. The packs slotted in. Just an idea
that sounded useful.

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from
the spare battery pack. Or do you just
carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?

No you go to the local zapping station, you know like you go for
petrol. Is that difficult for you to comprehend?

The concept of these widespread high-capacity substations is difficult
to comprehend.

I've done days that have used more
than a full tank plenty of times.
Sometimes, I've done a whole tank
with nothing more than a quick fluid-
exchange break.

Hard at the wheel eh.

No, not really.

I can "recharge" 600 miles+ of
70mph range into my current car in less than
five minutes.

Do you tow a tank?

Not at all. It just pours through a hole
in the rear wing of my (petrol
turbo auto) car. If mine was the same
model but diesel with manual box, you
could easily add 250+ miles to that.

That is nice but a moot point, as no one needs that range as we don't
have deserts in the UK to cross.

Odd how I've done 600-700 mile days in the UK, then.

But anyway - Allow me to introduce you to a novel concept. It's called
"Europe".

Nope. The new batteries are
very different. Don't judge by what you
are familiar with.

Right. So how long will it take to recharge
the battery sufficiently to give me 600 mile
range? Five minutes? Sold. Eight hours? Useless.

Well if 200 mile plus is done in 5 minutes, ten...can't you do some
basic sums?

600+ (but I suspect it's a minor difference as 200+ will be
unattainable). But - am I going to be able to pull off the road, and
recharge my car in five minutes? No? Useless, then.

What's this 500mile capacity battery going to weigh? A ton? Literally?

Where's all this electricity going to come from in the first place?

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Aha. So - will this "appropriate equipment"
be in every supermarket car
park and at regular intervals up every main
road in the country, then?

Should be in time. We have petrol al over the place.

Mmmm. Like LPG is currently
available everywhere?

You are really slow. If electric takes off charging stations will be
everywhere. LPG has not taken off yet. It may do id petrol keep
increasing.

It's the usual Chicken & Egg situation.

Nobody's going to buy an electric car
without recharging stations widely
available.

So, the government makes sure they are. Pay attention please.

Nobody's going to open thousands of
recharging stations without plenty
of customers.

There will be.

I recall one idea was to have two battery packs and one trickling in
the garage and one in the car. The packs slotted in. Just an idea
that sounded useful.

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from
the spare battery pack. Or do you just
carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?

No you go to the local zapping station, you know like you go for
petrol. Is that difficult for you to comprehend?

The concept of these widespread
high-capacity substations is difficult
to comprehend.

Less than 100 years ago you bout petrol in cans from the chandlers. Special
stations to fill up cars everywhere? I can't see it son.

I've done days that have used more
than a full tank plenty of times.
Sometimes, I've done a whole tank
with nothing more than a quick fluid-
exchange break.

Hard at the wheel eh.

No, not really.

At 600 miles?

I can "recharge" 600 miles+ of
70mph range into my current car in less than
five minutes.

Do you tow a tank?

Not at all. It just pours through a hole
in the rear wing of my (petrol
turbo auto) car. If mine was the same
model but diesel with manual box, you
could easily add 250+ miles to that.

That is nice but a moot point,
as no one needs that range as we don't
have deserts in the UK to cross.

Odd how I've done 600-700
mile days in the UK, then.

And passed countless filling stations along they way. You are slow aren't
you.

But anyway - Allow me to introduce you
to a novel concept. It's called "Europe".

Wow. Is that place that has all those wars and the likes? And all those
petrol stations along the roads too?

Nope. The new batteries are
very different. Don't judge by what you
are familiar with.

Right. So how long will it take to recharge
the battery sufficiently to give me 600 mile
range? Five minutes? Sold. Eight hours? Useless.

Well if 200 mile plus is done in 5 minutes, ten...can't you do some
basic sums?

600+ (but I suspect it's a minor

You come across as a total idiot. Few people travel 600 miles on one tank.
I have never had a car with that range. I also don't need it as filling
stations are everywhere.

What's this 500mile capacity
battery going to weigh?

Twice the weight of 250 mile one.

A ton? Literally?

Nope. They are actually quite light.

Where's all this electricity going to come from in the first place?

Power stations? You know, those things with generators in them and wires
coming out.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Aha. So - will this "appropriate equipment"
be in every supermarket car
park and at regular intervals up every main
road in the country, then?

Should be in time. We have petrol al over the place.

Mmmm. Like LPG is currently
available everywhere?

You are really slow. If electric takes off charging stations will be
everywhere. LPG has not taken off yet. It may do id petrol keep
increasing.

It may very well do, IF you could get it more widely. thinks And if
you could trust the goverment not to slap an equivalent level of duty on
it as soon as it started to hit petrol sales significantly...

It's the usual Chicken & Egg situation.

Nobody's going to buy an electric car
without recharging stations widely
available.

So, the government makes sure they are. Pay attention please.

falls off chair laughing
Oh. Wait. You're *serious*?

Less than 100 years ago you bout petrol in cans from the chandlers.
Special stations to fill up cars everywhere? I can't see it son.

At that time, the concept of doing 4-500 miles in a day in a car would
have been laughable. Or even 100 miles in a day. Or even 100 miles
without major repair. So cans would have been perfectly acceptable.
You'd have plenty of time to send a boy to fetch a can while your
chauffeur was fixing something on the horseless carriage.

Besides, we apparently now have less petrol stations in the UK than at
any time since 1921.

I've done days that have used more
than a full tank plenty of times.
Sometimes, I've done a whole tank
with nothing more than a quick fluid-
exchange break.

Hard at the wheel eh.

No, not really.

At 600 miles?

Indeed. Nice comfortable car.

That is nice but a moot point,
as no one needs that range as we don't
have deserts in the UK to cross.

Odd how I've done 600-700
mile days in the UK, then.

And passed countless filling stations along they way.

Yes, but I haven't had to waste time at them.

You are slow aren't you.

I would be if I had to stop to recharge the battery every hundred miles.

But anyway - Allow me to introduce you
to a novel concept. It's called "Europe".

Wow. Is that place that has all those wars and the likes? And all
those petrol stations along the roads too?

And all those electric recharging stations?

600+ (but I suspect it's a minor

You come across as a total idiot. Few people travel 600 miles on one
tank. I have never had a car with that range.

Is that MY problem? I _do_ have a car with that range. I like having a
car with that range.

I also don't need it as filling stations are everywhere.

Lovely. I prefer not to stop at filling stations very often. I don't
actually like them very much. I certainly wouldn't want to stop at 'em
three or four times a day.

What's this 500mile capacity
battery going to weigh?

Twice the weight of 250 mile one.

Which would weigh?

A ton? Literally?

Nope. They are actually quite light.

OK, you seem to be an electric car expert. Inform me. Enlighten me.
Convert me. What sort of battery capacity would I need to propel a ton
and a half of car at 70mph for 600 miles without recharging?

What's the life expectancy of these batteries? And the replacement cost?

I was rather tempted by a 5yo electric van that was on fleaBay last
year. Quite cheap. 40k miles on it. Only needed new batteries.

Then I found out the price of the batteries.

Twice the price of the equivalent diesel van. New.

Where's all this electricity going to come from in the first place?

Power stations? You know, those things with generators in them and
wires coming out.

Right. Now - what goes INTO those power stations, and what else comes
OUT of them?

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

It's the usual Chicken & Egg situation.

Nobody's going to buy an electric car
without recharging stations widely
available.

So, the government makes sure they are. Pay attention please.

falls off chair laughing
Oh. Wait. You're *serious*?

Just like they ensured unleaded was at the pumps. No demand for that new
fangled petrol guv, so we are not 'having any. Until government says put
them it.

Less than 100 years ago you bought
petrol in cans from the chandlers.
Special stations to fill up cars everywhere? I
can't see it son.

At that time, the concept

Filling stations, when you can nip down the chandlers? can't see it son.

That is nice but a moot point,
as no one needs that range as we don't
have deserts in the UK to cross.

Odd how I've done 600-700
mile days in the UK, then.

And passed countless filling stations along they way.

Yes,

Of course you have. Have you always been hard of thinking?

You are slow aren't you.

I would be if I had to stop to
recharge the battery every hundred miles.

200-300 miles me old fruit.

But anyway - Allow me to introduce you
to a novel concept. It's called "Europe".

Wow. Is that place that has all those wars and the likes? And all
those petrol stations along the roads too?

And all those electric recharging stations?

They will have when the EU tells them to have them. Boy you are slow.

600+ (but I suspect it's a minor

I also don't need it as filling stations are everywhere.

Lovely. I prefer not to stop
at filling stations very often.

So, we scrap energy efficiency and clean air because one dope in 60 million
doesn't like stopping. Boy you are slow.

What's this 500mile capacity
battery going to weigh?

Twice the weight of 250 mile one.

Which would weigh?

A ton? Literally?

Nope. They are actually quite light.

OK, you seem to be an electric car expert. Inform me. Enlighten me.
Convert me. What sort of battery capacity would I need to propel a ton

It doesn't matter. the car and battery will be sized to suit. Boy you are
slow.

What's the life expectancy of
these batteries?

15 years minium.

And the replacement cost?

Cheap when we all use them. Boy you are slow.

Where's all this electricity going to
come from in the first place?

Power stations? You know, those
things with generators in them and
wires coming out.

Right. Now - what goes INTO those
power stations, and what else comes
OUT of them?

Oh a quiz. Er, er, er, energy goes in. Got it in one.

Adrian wrote:

What's this 500mile capacity battery going to weigh? A ton? Literally?

Compare the size, weight, capacity and duration of a late 1980s/early 1990s
mobile phone battery with a current one.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

So, the government makes sure they are. Pay attention please.

falls off chair laughing
Oh. Wait. You're *serious*?

Just like they ensured unleaded was at the pumps. No demand for that
new fangled petrol guv, so we are not 'having any. Until government
says put them it.

And there was me, thinking that was because legislation required
catalytic converters which required unleaded...

So, we scrap energy efficiency and clean air because one dope in 60
million doesn't like stopping.

Clean air? So where's this electricity coming from, then?

I'm just trying to point out that you need to CONVINCE people that
electric cars will work for them. And they won't on current technology.
They will not enable people to do what they need to do. So they won't
have 'em. I'm not talking about the school run or the supermarket run or
popping out with Auntie at the weekend. I'm talking about the people who
actually make the economy of this country run, which often requires
doing a lot of miles every day.

Remote working and teleconferencing are far more likely to make a dent
in the emissions from business miles than changing from localised (and
very tightly controlled) emissions to remote and centralised emissions.
And they ain't exactly making that big a dent. Why? Because doing
business just works better face-to-face.

Perhaps if inter-city public transport wasn't so damned expensive and
crap it'd help, too.

OK, you seem to be an electric car expert. Inform me. Enlighten me.
Convert me. What sort of battery capacity would I need to propel a
ton

It doesn't matter. the car and battery will be sized to suit.

So we'll be throwing away all the impact test requirements, will we?
Because they're largely what makes modern cars so damn lardy.

What's the life expectancy of
these batteries?

15 years minium.

********.

And the replacement cost?

Cheap when we all use them.

********.

And the production and recycling of all those lovely toxic chemicals in
the batteries?

Right. Now - what goes INTO those
power stations, and what else comes
OUT of them?

Oh a quiz. Er, er, er, energy goes in. Got it in one.

Clue :-
In - http://www.aepuk.com/need_info.php#4

Yep, currently mainly coal.

Out -
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...mages/gafg06.g
if
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/.../gaemunece.htm

Yep, currently more than transport.

Nice clean stuff, electricity, innit? No.

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

So, the government makes sure they are. Pay attention please.

falls off chair laughing
Oh. Wait. You're *serious*?

Just like they ensured unleaded was at
the pumps. No demand for that
new fangled petrol guv, so we are not
'aving any. Until government
says put them it.

And there was me, thinking that was
because legislation required
catalytic converters which required unleaded...

Oh you are catching on. Yes, the 'government' said put them, and instead
that unleaded pumps would be around too.

So, we scrap energy efficiency and
clean air because one dope in 60
million doesn't like stopping.

Clean air?

Yes. Clean in cities and the likes where millions of lungs are exposed.

So where's this electricity coming from, then?

Power station?

I'm just trying to point out that
you need to CONVINCE people that
electric cars will work for them.

That is easy.

And they won't on current technology.

Technology is here, right now, to give us electric cars with 200-300 mile
ranges. mass production will drop prices. Mass production? Heard of it?

They will not enable people to do what they need to do.

Like drive down the street?

** snip babble **

OK, you seem to be an electric car
expert. Inform me. Enlighten me.
Convert me. What sort of battery
capacity would I need to propel a
ton

It doesn't matter. the car and battery will be sized to suit.

So we'll be throwing away all the
impact test requirements, will we?

Boy you are dumb.

What's the life expectancy of
these batteries?

15 years minium.

********.

No. Years.

And the replacement cost?

Cheap when we all use them.

********.

No. Cheap when we all use them. See 'mass production' above.

And the production and recycling
of all those lovely toxic chemicals in
the batteries?

No toxic chemicals. Does your mobile phone battery have toxic chemicals?

Right. Now - what goes INTO those
power stations, and what else comes
OUT of them?

Oh a quiz. Er, er, er, energy goes in. Got it in one.

Clue :-
In - http://www.aepuk.com/need_info.php#4

Yep, currently mainly coal.

Is that energy? I think so, so I get some points in this quiz.

Out -
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...mages/gafg06.g
if
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/.../gaemunece.htm

Yep, currently more than transport.

And improving. Look at the efficiency of the newer stations and the
emissions too with advanced scrubbers. Boy you are slow. Also look at what
I originally wrote:

"The gripe by environmentalists is that electricity is dirty and inefficient
from power station to point use with latent heat and line losses. True when
looking at heating buildings and hot water, where natural gas can be burnt
at point of use at 90% efficiency (heating your domestic hot water by
electricity is about 30% efficient end to end). However power generation is
now more efficient with energy reclaim measures in place in the newer and
more advanced stations - not to mention wind, solar, hydro etc.

However, the vehicle is another matter. It is more efficient to pour fuel
into an engine at a power station with advanced stack scrubbers, that drives
a genny, that sends the electricity down a line, then into a cars battery
and propel the car, than pour the fuel directly into a current car. 75% of
energy stored in your tank is wasted, while only a few percentage points of
energy is wasted from a battery pack - and the electric car is 100% clean at
point of use, cleaning up cities at a stroke."

Now read this 4 times...and you can move your lips if you like.

Conor wrote:
In article , Steve Firth says...
Conor wrote:
In article , Steve Firth says...

75% of energy stored in your tank is wasted,
Incorrect.

I think he's going along the lines that the average petrol engine is
only 25% efficient.
Which would be fine if it were true.

It's the "standard" reference figure for a petrol engine as is 40% for
diesel.

Yes, it's also seriously out of date. Modern petrol engines are in the
range 30-35% with Toyota claiming 38% for the Atkinson cycle engine.
Diesels as you say starting around 40%, 42% looks typical but large
marine diesel engines are capable of achieving over 50%.

Now "Drivel" is claiming that a conventional electricity generating
plant plus power conversion losses can produce a car that has a greater
thermal efficiency than a petrol engined vehicle.

The various efficiencies in generation and distribution a

Generation 92%
Distribution 92%
Battery 65%
Battery charger 96%
Motor 78%

So if the electricity is generated using a high efficiency stationary
diesel engine, we get:

0.5x0.92x0.92x0.96x0.65x0.78 = 0.21

21% Thermal efficiency for an electric vehicle.

Not very impressive.

Adrian wrote:

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from the spare battery pack. Or do you just
carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?

All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology. The high charge density
lightweight batteries have much lower thermal efficiencies than
lead-acid batteries.

As you wil notice if you try charging any LiIon, NiCd or NiMH battery.
See how toasty and warm it gets while charging? And feel how warm if
gets while discharging as well. It's a lose/lose technology.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

However, the vehicle is another matter. It is more efficient to pour
fuel into an engine at a power station with advanced stack scrubbers,
that drives a genny, that sends the electricity down a line, then into a
cars battery and propel the car, than pour the fuel directly into a
current car. 75% of energy stored in your tank is wasted, while only a
few percentage points of energy is wasted from a battery pack - and the
electric car is 100% clean at point of use, cleaning up cities at a
stroke."

Now read this 4 times...and you can move your lips if you like.

I have done, what is remarkable is that it is complete and utter
******** from one end to the other. It takes no account of generation,
transmission and conversion losses, and makes ludicrous claims about the
efficiency of a battery.

On 03 Jan 2006 12:32:53 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Roll on fuel cells.

If battery technology progresses like it is, then even these will be
by-passed to direct electric drives.

Battery technology will ALWAYS have the problem of the charging delay.

I've seen prototype panasonic 5 minute recharge LIPO cells announced.

How long does it take you to fill an empty petrol tank?

On 03 Jan 2006 15:23:14 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

Battery technology will ALWAYS have
the problem of the charging delay.

Not with the new Toshiba batteries it doesn't.

They charge *instantly*? Off a domestic power supply?

extremely sceptical

I can "recharge" 600 miles+ of 70mph range into my current car in less than
five minutes.

To do that with batteries would require either an IMMENSELY high charging
current or a MASSIVE decrease in the current required to run the car.

50KWh is a decent sized car battery. To recharge that in 5minutes takes
600KW. At 250V that is 1.6KA. Thats only 10 times what a car starter
battery dumps into the starter motor. Off hand I'd say 20mm diameter cables
would easily handle it.

All it effectively means is that 'motorway petrol stations'; are now
'electricity substations'

Everyone else would charge at home overnight

On 03 Jan 2006 20:30:51 GMT, Adrian wrote:

are familiar with.

Right. So how long will it take to recharge the battery sufficiently to
give me 600 mile range? Five minutes? Sold. Eight hours? Useless.

Curent LIPO batteries that I use are 90% charged in under an hour.

You have to ramp down the charge curent to squeeze the last 10% in..that
takes another 20 mins..but realistically you wouldn't bother in a 'fast
charge'

If you only half fill (or halgf emoty them) them they only take 25 mins or
so.

Now that is not acceptable for long distance driving, see my previous post
for what may be expected in the future - yes, 5 min charging is on the
cards. The battery developers are aware of your sentiments.

I'd like to see someone dumping in liquid hydrogen at that rate, safely, as
well, for fuel cells..:-)

On 03 Jan 2006 21:47:15 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Aha. So - will this "appropriate equipment"
be in every supermarket car
park and at regular intervals up every main
road in the country, then?

Should be in time. We have petrol al over the place.

Mmmm. Like LPG is currently available everywhere?

It's the usual Chicken & Egg situation.

Nobody's going to buy an electric car without recharging stations widely
available.


They are. Its called a 13A socket in your house, and an extension lead.

The VAST MAJORITY ofpeople do NOT exceed 200 miles in a day for most
journeys. That is EASILY catered for on overnight charging at 3KW.

For the rest, you need fast charge electricity substations.

Nobody's going to open thousands of recharging stations without plenty
of customers.


They will come..but you don't NEED them Not thousands.

Because unless you are doing 200 miles you never need to visit one.

All trtis are to and from your house by and large, or someone elses. Or the
supermarket - charge in an hour while you shop.


Well if 200 mile plus is done in 5 minutes, ten...can't you do some
basic sums?

600+ (but I suspect it's a minor difference as 200+ will be
unattainable).

200 plis has already BEEN achieved.

But - am I going to be able to pull off the road, and
recharge my car in five minutes? No? Useless, then.

What's this 500mile capacity battery going to weigh? A ton? Literally?


50 miles, probably. But there won;t be much esle of any weight in an
elecric car.

Where's all this electricity going to come from in the first place?

Nuclear power stations.

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 23:16:37 +0000 (UTC), Brimstone wrote:

Adrian wrote:

What's this 500mile capacity battery going to weigh? A ton? Literally?

Compare the size, weight, capacity and duration of a late 1980s/early 1990s
mobile phone battery with a current one.

There is a theoretical limit here. Lithium - being a light material - can
reach about one tenth of the energy density of diesel, used in batteries.

That sounds bad, but it is vastly alleviated by the fact that

- battey electric is 70-95% efficient overall, diesel is about 40% at best,
in a road vehicle.

- a 100 bhp electric motor is a lump of iron and copper about the size of a
watering can. BUT it needs no exhaust system, not a lot of shock mounting,
no radiator, no gearbox, no injection mechanism, no starter motor, no
starter battery, no air filter, no oil cooler, no turbo charger , no
intercooler , no heavy mountings for all of the above..., and les sound
insulation....In short there are huge weight savings to be made to offset
the battery weight penalty.

I am flying RC planes with this technology. We can esasily get the same or
more duratiion from a typical electric package at the same weight and power
as an IC engine. We can't get the absolute peak power to weight of a racing
2-stroke, but the overall package weight of e,g a methanol or petrol 4
stroke i, or a diesel, is broadly similar. A lot of that comes from reduces
structural weight as the vibration is far less severe. Peak power (albeit
for very restricted durations: 10 minutes or so) is up around a half bhp
per lb. say 1000bhp per ton. take that down to 100bhp per ton - a
respectable sort of middling car - and you get 100 minutes duration. At
full power. what speed would 100bhp do in a ton of car? 100mph? so about
170 miles range flat out...? The battery weight would represent about half
the total plane (or car) weight at that point.


AND batteries can be made of smaller cells, fited in the car anywhere you
like. Under the seats, behind the rear seat. Under the floor even.

The overall package is likely to - with 300 mile range LIPO batteries -
weigh little more than a conventional mid range car.

I think this is abou 3-5 years away frankly. And it will be expensive, and
I suspect it will be in short range luxury cars first - where the packaging
pluses plus the low noise, will make a rolls royce car seem easy, and the
immesense development costs can be met by selling the cars expensively.

At the other end of the scale expect to see cheap piddly 50 mile range
shopping trolleys coming out with nickel batteries - electric scooters are
here already. That will help prove the technology and get people used to
them: Then an expensive LIPO battery will net them nearer 200 miles range.

Aftre that the technology will extend into the middle ground I think. As
more and more fast charge batteries and fast charge stations get built.

Now a lot of this edepned son rnewable or nuclear electricity being
available - otherwise there is no net carbon gain to be had.

But that goes for fuel cells as well, and even old IC engines.

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:35:45 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:

Conor wrote:
In article , Steve Firth says...

75% of energy stored in your tank is wasted,
Incorrect.

I think he's going along the lines that the average petrol engine is
only 25% efficient.

Which would be fine if it were true.

Overall its not far off for the average of most (petrol) cars.

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:35:17 -0000, Conor wrote:

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel says...


A diesel is more like 30-33%. Even 40% is hopeless.

Average mains powered electric power supplies and chargers are only 70%
efficient so it could be argued that an electric car charged through
the mains isn't that much better.

There is no reason that 95% or better chargers could not be produced. The
ones we typically use are inefficient because there is no incentive to make
them efficient. Not because they CAN'T be made efficient.

Battey cycle efficiencies (watt hours in versus watt hours out) at
reasonable discharge rates are very good - well over 90%. They do start to
lose out when pushed REALLY hard. I'd say my 160W model plane loses about
15W of heat when flying its 10 minute dash for freedom.

In article , The Natural
Philosopher says...

There is no reason that 95% or better chargers could not be produced.

Actually there is. The only way you could make it better would be to
increase the frequency of the AC supply.

The
ones we typically use are inefficient because there is no incentive to make
them efficient. Not because they CAN'T be made efficient.

See above.


--
Conor

I'm so grateful to the USA for their contribution to the war on terror.
After all, if they hadn't funded the IRA for 30 years, we wouldn't know
what terror was.

In article , Steve Firth says...
Conor wrote:
In article , Steve Firth says...
Conor wrote:
In article , Steve Firth says...

75% of energy stored in your tank is wasted,
Incorrect.

I think he's going along the lines that the average petrol engine is
only 25% efficient.
Which would be fine if it were true.

It's the "standard" reference figure for a petrol engine as is 40% for
diesel.

Yes, it's also seriously out of date.

Not arguing with that at all but it's still what is being taught.


Now "Drivel" is claiming that a conventional electricity generating
plant plus power conversion losses can produce a car that has a greater
thermal efficiency than a petrol engined vehicle.

The various efficiencies in generation and distribution a

Generation 92%
Distribution 92%
Battery 65%
Battery charger 96%
Motor 78%

So if the electricity is generated using a high efficiency stationary
diesel engine, we get:

0.5x0.92x0.92x0.96x0.65x0.78 = 0.21

21% Thermal efficiency for an electric vehicle.

Actually probably less. THe effective voltage of an AC power system is
only 0.707 times the peak ~70%.


--
Conor

I'm so grateful to the USA for their contribution to the war on terror.
After all, if they hadn't funded the IRA for 30 years, we wouldn't know
what terror was.

In article , The Natural
Philosopher says...
On 03 Jan 2006 12:32:53 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Roll on fuel cells.

If battery technology progresses like it is, then even these will be
by-passed to direct electric drives.

Battery technology will ALWAYS have the problem of the charging delay.

I've seen prototype panasonic 5 minute recharge LIPO cells announced.

How long does it take you to fill an empty petrol tank?

To power a vehicle for the same distance one of those LIPO cell
batteries could manage? A second?

--
Conor

I'm so grateful to the USA for their contribution to the war on terror.
After all, if they hadn't funded the IRA for 30 years, we wouldn't know
what terror was.

In article , The Natural
Philosopher says...
On 03 Jan 2006 12:32:53 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Roll on fuel cells.

If battery technology progresses like it is, then even these will be
by-passed to direct electric drives.

Battery technology will ALWAYS have the problem of the charging delay.

I've seen prototype panasonic 5 minute recharge LIPO cells announced.

How long does it take you to fill an empty petrol tank?

Takes about 5 minutes to put in over 300 litres in my lorry.

The pumps on my tankers I drive work at 1000 litres a minute. Going on
that, I could fill a standard car petrol tank in two seconds.

--
Conor

I'm so grateful to the USA for their contribution to the war on terror.
After all, if they hadn't funded the IRA for 30 years, we wouldn't know
what terror was.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Just like they ensured unleaded was at
the pumps. No demand for that
new fangled petrol guv, so we are not
'aving any. Until government
says put them it.

And there was me, thinking that was
because legislation required
catalytic converters which required unleaded...

Oh you are catching on. Yes, the 'government' said put them, and
instead that unleaded pumps would be around too.

Mmmm. Massive infrastructure changes required.

"Stop putting two star in, and start putting unleaded in."

Will they be putting electricity in the LRP tanks, then?

So, we scrap energy efficiency and
clean air because one dope in 60
million doesn't like stopping.

Clean air?

Yes. Clean in cities and the likes where millions of lungs are
exposed.

Because, of course, the pollution from power stations stays at the power
station, doesn't it?

I'm just trying to point out that
you need to CONVINCE people that
electric cars will work for them.

That is easy.

sits back and waits
dies of old age

And they won't on current technology.

Technology is here, right now, to give us electric cars with 200-300
mile ranges.

Really?
Please feel free to go into details.

OK, you seem to be an electric car
expert. Inform me. Enlighten me.
Convert me. What sort of battery
capacity would I need to propel a
ton

It doesn't matter. the car and battery will be sized to suit.

So we'll be throwing away all the
impact test requirements, will we?

Boy you are dumb.

One of us is. It's not me. Those sunglasses do suit you, though.
Interesting tint. Sort of... pinkish. You could almost call it "rose".

OK - so how do you plan to get the 50,000+ mile per year salesman or
service engineer out of his Mondeo estate stuffed with samples/tools
into something the size of a Smart?

And the production and recycling
of all those lovely toxic chemicals in
the batteries?

No toxic chemicals. Does your mobile phone battery have toxic
chemicals?

Yes. Massively so.
It's becoming a HUGE pollution problem.

Look at the efficiency of the newer stations and the
emissions too with advanced scrubbers.

What's the life of your typical power station?
Compared to the life of your typical car?

"The gripe by environmentalists is that electricity is dirty and
inefficient from power station to point use with latent heat and line
losses. True when looking at heating buildings and hot water, where
natural gas can be burnt at point of use at 90% efficiency (heating
your domestic hot water by electricity is about 30% efficient end to
end). However power generation is now more efficient with energy
reclaim measures in place in the newer and more advanced stations -
not to mention wind, solar, hydro etc.

Please feel free to consider the large %age of gas powered stations,
with particular reference to certain current affairs.

However, the vehicle is another matter. It is more efficient to pour
fuel into an engine at a power station with advanced stack scrubbers,
that drives a genny, that sends the electricity down a line, then into
a cars battery and propel the car, than pour the fuel directly into a
current car. 75% of energy stored in your tank is wasted, while only a
few percentage points of energy is wasted from a battery pack - and
the electric car is 100% clean at point of use, cleaning up cities at
a stroke."

And how much is wasted in the generation and transmission?

The Natural Philosopher ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

Battery technology will ALWAYS have the problem of the charging delay.

I've seen prototype panasonic 5 minute recharge LIPO cells announced.

How long does it take you to fill an empty petrol tank?

I was quite surprised the other day when a pump wouldn't let me fill my
tank - it cut off after about 80 litres.

I asked when I was paying - turns out the cutoff is set to 100 litres or 3
minutes. The pump had seemed to be going slowly.

So - about 2-2.5 minutes normally, to put 5-600 miles of range in.

The Natural Philosopher ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

Nobody's going to buy an electric car without recharging stations
widely available.

They are. Its called a 13A socket in your house, and an extension
lead.

And yet electric cars are touted as the solution for cities.

Where you're often doing well if you can park within a street of your flat.

The VAST MAJORITY ofpeople do NOT exceed 200 miles in a day for most
journeys. That is EASILY catered for on overnight charging at 3KW.

For the rest, you need fast charge electricity substations.

Oooh. Nice cheap infrastructure. Not.

Because unless you are doing 200 miles you never need to visit one.

Millions of people DO do that distance daily. Or more.

All trtis

? trips?

are to and from your house by and large, or someone elses.
Or the supermarket - charge in an hour while you shop.

Yours might well be. Mine aren't.

What's this 500mile capacity battery going to weigh? A ton?
Literally?

50 miles, probably. But there won;t be much esle of any weight in an
elecric car.

Right. So the impact resistance WILL be thrown out the window, then?

Where's all this electricity going to come from in the first place?

Nuclear power stations.

Bwahahahah

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Battery technology will ALWAYS have the problem of the charging delay.

I've seen prototype panasonic 5 minute recharge LIPO cells announced.

Do they give any efficiency figures? Ie power required for a full charge
against power out?

--
*Can fat people go skinny-dipping?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology. The high charge density
lightweight batteries have much lower thermal efficiencies than
lead-acid batteries.

I find it interesting that many car makers are going to expensive lengths
to save weight - extensive use of aluminium etc. But still fit lead acid
batteries - where cost really isn't a consideration.

--
*Drugs may lead to nowhere, but at least it's the scenic route *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Conor wrote:
There is no reason that 95% or better chargers could not be produced.

Actually there is. The only way you could make it better would be to
increase the frequency of the AC supply.

But that's what a SMPS does.

--
*Work is for people who don't know how to fish.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . 170,
Adrian wrote:
Because unless you are doing 200 miles you never need to visit one.

Millions of people DO do that distance daily. Or more.

Assuming that for 5 days a week and 50 weeks that's 50,000 miles a year -
before any pleasure miles. I doubt millions do this sort of mileage.
(Based on looking at three year old ex lease cars at auction)

--
*What hair colour do they put on the driver's license of a bald man? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 03 Jan 2006 15:23:14 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they
were saying :

Battery technology will ALWAYS have
the problem of the charging delay.

Not with the new Toshiba batteries it doesn't.

They charge *instantly*? Off a domestic power supply?

extremely sceptical

I can "recharge" 600 miles+ of 70mph range into my current car in less
than
five minutes.

To do that with batteries would require either an IMMENSELY high charging
current or a MASSIVE decrease in the current required to run the car.

50KWh is a decent sized car battery. To recharge that in 5minutes takes
600KW. At 250V that is 1.6KA. Thats only 10 times what a car starter
battery dumps into the starter motor. Off hand I'd say 20mm diameter
cables
would easily handle it.

All it effectively means is that 'motorway petrol stations'; are now
'electricity substations'

Everyone else would charge at home overnight

Not those in flats. 50% of all new homes are flats, because of the country
NIMBYs are getting their way.

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Just like they ensured unleaded was at
the pumps. No demand for that
new fangled petrol guv, so we are not
'aving any. Until government
says put them it.

And there was me, thinking that was
because legislation required
catalytic converters which required unleaded...

Oh you are catching on. Yes, the 'government' said put them, and
also that unleaded pumps would be around too.

Mmmm. Massive infrastructure changes required.

No. Electricity cables are everywhere.

So, we scrap energy efficiency and
clean air because one dope in 60
million doesn't like stopping.

Clean air?

Yes. Clean in cities and the likes
where millions of lungs are
exposed.

Because, of course, the pollution
from power stations stays at the power
station, doesn't it?

It does get poured directly down people's lungs.

I'm just trying to point out that
you need to CONVINCE people that
electric cars will work for them.

That is easy.

sits back and waits
dies of old age

Just drive one.

And they won't on current technology.

Technology is here, right now, to give
us electric cars with 200-300
mile ranges.

Really?
Please feel free to go into details.

See the snotty uni man's posts.

service engineer out of his Mondeo estate stuffed with samples/tools
into something the size of a Smart?

Nope, the car will have more interior space than a current piece of crap, as
there are not super heavy engines and transmission to goggle up space.

And the production and recycling
of all those lovely toxic chemicals in
the batteries?

No toxic chemicals. Does your mobile phone battery have toxic
chemicals?

Yes. Massively so.
It's becoming a HUGE pollution problem.

Yep, plastics, and Lithium is toxic?

Look at the efficiency of the newer stations and the
emissions too with advanced scrubbers.

What's the life of your typical power station?
Compared to the life of your typical car?

You are confused and scatter brained.

"The gripe by environmentalists is that electricity is dirty and
inefficient from power station to point use with latent heat and line
losses. True when looking at heating buildings and hot water, where
natural gas can be burnt at point of use at 90% efficiency (heating
your domestic hot water by electricity is about 30% efficient end to
end). However power generation is now more efficient with energy
reclaim measures in place in the newer and more advanced stations -
not to mention wind, solar, hydro etc.

Please feel free to consider
the large %age of gas powered stations,
with particular reference to certain current affairs.

Please read above.

However, the vehicle is another matter. It is more efficient to pour
fuel into an engine at a power station with advanced stack scrubbers,
that drives a genny, that sends the electricity down a line, then into
a cars battery and propel the car, than pour the fuel directly into a
current car. 75% of energy stored in your tank is wasted, while only a
few percentage points of energy is wasted from a battery pack - and
the electric car is 100% clean at point of use, cleaning up cities at
a stroke."

And how much is wasted in the generation and transmission?

Please read above again. Your comprehension is limited, so I can't help you
on that point.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:

All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology. The high charge density
lightweight batteries have much lower thermal efficiencies than
lead-acid batteries.

I find it interesting that many car makers
are going to expensive lengths
to save weight

The best way to save weight is to get rid of the heavy engine and
transmissions - and install electric motors.

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
Few people travel 600 miles on one tank. I have never had a car with
that range. I also don't need it as filling stations are everywhere.
I've got a diesel Almera with a range of 700 miles, it's nice to know
before I leave home I can drive over 300 miles to Bristol and back if need
be without needing fuel. Especially the prices charged on M/way
forecourts.

Fill that up just to drive around town and you carry all that weight around
too. Not efficient at all. No need for it unless you travel across
deserts.

What's this 500mile capacity battery going to weigh? A ton?
Literally?

50 miles, probably. But there won;t be much esle of any weight in an
elecric car.

Right. So the impact resistance WILL be thrown out the window, then?

There is a way we can, in one move:
- throw impact resistance away
- improve safety
- make cars much cheaper to buy and run, and more energy efficient
- reduce congestion

How implementable it is is up for debate. The mthod is to permit
go-cart sized vehicles, using their own fenced off lanes separate from
full size cars. These are safe enough if kept physically separate from
cars and trucks, and big enough for town trips, shopping, school runs,
small deliveries, and a lot of transport in and around towns. Of course
they wont replace todays cars, but for many people they will be all
thats needed. A percentage of our car stock could be replaced with much
more efficient machines.


NT

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Adrian wrote:

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from the spare battery pack. Or do you
just carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?

All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology.

Your knowledge of current batteries is less than ZERO.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

However, the vehicle is another matter. It is more efficient to pour fuel
into an engine at a power station with advanced stack scrubbers, that
drives a genny, that sends the electricity down a line, then into a cars
battery and propel the car, than pour the fuel directly into a current
car. 75% of energy stored in your tank is wasted, while only a few
percentage points of energy is wasted from a battery pack - and the
electric car is 100% clean at point of use, cleaning up cities at a
stroke."

Now read this 4 times...and you can move your lips if you like.

I have done,

I your case shout as you read it. Now do it again.

what is remarkable is that it is complete and utter ******** from one end
to the other. It takes no account of generation, transmission and
conversion losses, and makes ludicrous claims about the efficiency of a
battery.

As your knowledge of current batteries is less than ZERO, it is clear you
know even less about the rest.

Dave Plowman (News) ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

Because unless you are doing 200 miles you never need to visit one.

Millions of people DO do that distance daily. Or more.

Assuming that for 5 days a week and 50 weeks that's 50,000 miles a year -
before any pleasure miles. I doubt millions do this sort of mileage.
(Based on looking at three year old ex lease cars at auction)

You don't need to do it EVERY day. Even if you just do 200 miles per day
once or twice a week, you'll be left stranded by electric cars.