"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

No. They say put re-charge stations in, and they do.
Who puts them in? Who pays for them to be put in?

No answer to this one?

The people who sell the electricity to the drivers. Boy are you dumb.

** snip babbling drivel **

Boy is he dumb.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Adrian wrote:

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from the spare battery pack. Or do
you just carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?

All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology.

Your knowledge of current batteries is less than ZERO.

Please feel free to contradict me with facts, rather than baseless
assertions.

READ THE THREAD AND THE LINKS. I shouted it for you - see? Boy you are
dumb.

None of the links that you gave referred to the round trip charge
efficiency of the batteries used.

Do feel free to try again.

Then use the links in the links. Do you know how to use Google? I don't
think you do as you come across as dumb

On 03 Jan 2006 15:23:14 GMT, Adrian wrote:

I can "recharge" 600 miles+ of 70mph range into my current car in less than
five minutes.

To do that with batteries would require either an IMMENSELY high charging
current or a MASSIVE decrease in the current required to run the car.

Or reliable long-life batteries on a swappable pallet. This isn't
completely infeasible.

Prius are still rare as hens' teeth, but imagine if Smarts ran on AA
cells. Look at a city centre car park these daysand how common the
things have become - even if it was specific to a single manufacturer's
car (supposedly the old problem with battery-swapping) it's getting to a
point of practicality to arrange this for a city-centre one-car-model
Smartpark and charging point.

Or we're getting to another point where everything has GPS/GSM
location-based networking on board. Park your Electropod up for an hour
or two downtown and have it whistle up a pack-swap recharge from the
battery milkfloat that cruises around the town centre looking for cars
requesting charges.

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Or reliable long-life batteries on a swappable pallet. This isn't
completely infeasible.

Hmm. Given they're likely to cost several thousand pounds the logistics
sound horrendous. You might as well just operate a vehicle pool.

--
*You can't teach an old mouse new clicks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

No. They say put re-charge stations in, and they do.

Who puts them in? Who pays for them to be put in?

No answer to this one?

The people who sell the electricity to the drivers.

Aha. So all the infrastructure costs are to be recouped from the sale price
of the electricity.

All the extra generation capacity, all the extra transmission capacity, all
the extra dispense capacity.

So - have you done the sums yet on how much current will need to be
transmitted to each recharge station?

Multiply that by 10,000, and then think about what those costs are likely
to be.

Then think about who can afford to invest that.

Boy are you dumb.

** snip babbling drivel **

Boy is he dumb.

You're funny. Can we keep you?

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology. The high charge
density lightweight batteries have much lower thermal efficiencies
than lead-acid batteries.

I find it interesting that many car makers are going to expensive
lengths
to save weight - extensive use of aluminium etc. But still fit lead acid
batteries - where cost really isn't a consideration.

It's because lead acid batteries don't need complex charge
controllers, work across a wide range of environmental temperatures
and provide huge cranking currents time after time. They are big,
rough and tough and also extremely efficient compared to any of the
alternatives around.

The last sentence proves you know ZERO about batteries.

Please feel free to contradict me with facts instead of bluster.

** misinformation **

Good of you to tag your posts to indicate their status. However you
should have that as a sig, because it describes all of your posts.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

The thread has been nothing of the sort. From fools like you who
initially said batteries could only go a few miles it is now proven
battery cars can get 200-300 miles.

At a pootle.

Do some reading, I know think this difficult.

Do you want to do the maths? Or are you just going to ignore it again?

I'll recap - 4x50kw motors, 2300Ah at 15v batteries.
100kg heavier than the equivalent petrol-powered vehicle.
Max speed 110mph.
Optimum range 150 miles.
Range at motorway speed?

Yes, that was the state of the art SUCH a long while ago, and I *know* the
world will have moved a long way forward since... August '05.

BTW, Mitsubishi have new all
electric range in a few years time
with motor in the hub.

Indeed.

That'd be derived from this autumn's
Evo MIEV concept, would it?

No they announced it about a year ago, All new fresh sheet design.

Not quite.

In May '05, they showed a Colt-based EV. In August '05, they entered the
MIEV into an EV event in Japan. Yes, they're planning on production. In
about 2010 at the earliest.

Of course, electric hub motors powering cars are hardly new - it's over 105
years since Ferdinand Porsche built the Porsche-Lohner.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

The last sentence proves you know ZERO about batteries.

** misinformation **

Are you related to Duhg?

"John Wright" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:59:59 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message
3.244.170...

What's the life expectancy of
these batteries?

15 years minium.

Toyota warrant the NiMH traction battery
system in the Prius for 8 years

Expected life - 15 years.

And the replacement cost?

Cheap when we all use them. Boy you are slow.

At the moment the Prius batteries
are running at more than £3,500 a
piece. Good job none have broken
down outside warranty yet. You can
get cheaper Li-Ion traction batteries
from China but the battery is
the major cost in electric vehicles
right now - this is a real factor
in getting wider acceptance.

Mass production will bring prices down. Battery plants are springing up all
over to meet the hybrid demand.

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

No. They say put re-charge stations in, and they do.

Who puts them in? Who pays for them to be put in?

No answer to this one?

The people who sell the electricity to the drivers.

Aha. So all the infrastructure costs are to be recouped from the sale
price
of the electricity.

Boy you a right little Richard Branson aren't you.

In article ,
John Wright wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:59:59 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message
.244.170...

What's the life expectancy of
these batteries?

15 years minium.

More ****e from dribble.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology. The high charge density
lightweight batteries have much lower thermal efficiencies than
lead-acid batteries.

I find it interesting that many car makers are going to expensive
lengths
to save weight - extensive use of aluminium etc. But still fit lead
acid
batteries - where cost really isn't a consideration.

It's because lead acid batteries don't need complex charge controllers,
work across a wide range of environmental temperatures and provide huge
cranking currents time after time. They are big, rough and tough and
also extremely efficient compared to any of the alternatives around.

The last sentence proves you know ZERO about batteries.

Please feel free to contradict me with facts instead of bluster.

Read the thread and the links. You know ZERO about batteries - and electric
cars for that matter.

In article ,
John Wright wrote:
At the moment the Prius batteries are running at more than £3,500 a
piece.

So 3500 quid for a battery with a range of only a couple of miles at town
speeds.

So one with a range of at least 200 miles at motorway speeds costs...

--
*Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

The thread has been nothing of the sort. From fools like you who
initially said batteries could only go a few miles it is now proven
battery cars can get 200-300 miles.

At a pootle.

Do some reading, I know you think this difficult.

Do you want to do the maths? Or are you just going to ignore it again?

Ignore it becaus it is wrong.

BTW, Mitsubishi have new all
electric range in a few years time
with motor in the hub.

Indeed.

That'd be derived from this autumn's
Evo MIEV concept, would it?

No they announced it about a year ago,
All new fresh sheet design.

Not quite.

Yes quite.

Of course, electric hub motors
powering cars are hardly new

Neither are electric cars. Boy you are dumb.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
John Wright wrote:

At the moment the Prius batteries are running at more than £3,500 a
piece.

So 3500 quid for a battery with a range
of only a couple of miles at town
speeds.

So one with a range of at least 200 miles at motorway speeds costs...

Richard, they will not be using those batteries for 200 mile ranges. Read
back on batteries and things.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
John Wright wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:59:59 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message
.244.170...

What's the life expectancy of
these batteries?

15 years minimum.

More ****e

Mr Cranium, you can't even pick the right taps, so how do you know about
batteries?

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

No. They say put re-charge stations in, and they do.

Who puts them in? Who pays for them to be put in?

No answer to this one?

The people who sell the electricity to the drivers.

Aha. So all the infrastructure costs are to be recouped from the sale
price of the electricity.

Boy you a right little Richard Branson aren't you.

I wish.

In this context, the term "realist" will suffice, however.

John Wright ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

At the moment the Prius batteries are running at more than £3,500 a
piece.

So 3500 quid for a battery with a range of only a couple of miles at town
speeds.

So one with a range of at least 200 miles at motorway speeds costs...

You can see where I was going with that....

whispers
Nothing, because it ain't happenin'.

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Do you want to do the maths? Or are you just going to ignore it
again?

Ignore it becaus it is wrong.

Which bit is wrong?

Do you want to do the maths? Or are you just going to ignore it again?

I'll recap - 4x50kw motors, 2300Ah at 15v batteries.
100kg heavier than the equivalent petrol-powered vehicle.
Max speed 110mph.
Optimum range 150 miles.
Range at motorway speed?

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 19:16:12 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Or reliable long-life batteries on a swappable pallet. This isn't
completely infeasible.

Hmm. Given they're likely to cost several thousand pounds the logistics
sound horrendous. You might as well just operate a vehicle pool.

So why not? Vehicle pools are borderline practical too (in sensible
mainland European countries). Have you seen the recent publications
from MIT (that's in Boston, the European quarter of the USA) on concepts
for poolable urban podcars?

The Prius already effectively has a pooled battery, because of the high
capital cost and the extensive warranty this entails to make it
affordable without excess risk on each owner. As batteries generally age
better when being used rather than ignored in storage (measured as total
energy stored over their lifetime) then a circulating pool with good
charging techniques and centralised maintenance when needed could even
increase their useful lifespan enough to make their pooling economic
overall. Integrated cell monitoring is already well-enough developed to
allow reasonable charging-by-use, and for preventative replacement to
make on-road failures insignificant.

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 20:12:01 +0000, Alan Vann
wrote:

I vaguely recall an article in 'Car Design and Technology' magazine[1] in the '80s

[1] Anyone remember that?

Wrote for it a couple of times.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The VAST MAJORITY ofpeople do NOT exceed 200 miles in a day for most
journeys. That is EASILY catered for on overnight charging at 3KW.
....
All trtis are to and from your house by and large, or someone elses. Or the
supermarket - charge in an hour while you shop.

Even in families withmore than one car few want to be limited to a
vehicle that cannot do all kinds of journey as required. I live in a
city centre, I have a car that may not be used for a week or more, many
of the trips I make might be done in something more favoured in economic
or ecological circles; or even not done at all. But sometimes I do need
and want to travel 200km or more at the drop of a hat, or carry awkward
loads, or provide transport for others. And I can't or won't be delayed
by the need to hire or pre-book or constrained by timetables ans
schedules that do not suit.
Until alternative fuels offer equivalent convinience there will be
little demand


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

Adrian wrote:
Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Do you want to do the maths? Or are you just going to ignore it
again?

Ignore it becaus it is wrong.

Which bit is wrong?

Do you want to do the maths? Or are you just going to ignore it again?

I'll recap - 4x50kw motors, 2300Ah at 15v batteries.
100kg heavier than the equivalent petrol-powered vehicle.
Max speed 110mph.
Optimum range 150 miles.
Range at motorway speed?

I dont know why you folks argue with the driveller.

NT

In article ,
John Wright wrote:
In article ,
John Wright wrote:
At the moment the Prius batteries are running at more than £3,500 a
piece.

So 3500 quid for a battery with a range of only a couple of miles at
town speeds.

So one with a range of at least 200 miles at motorway speeds costs...

You can see where I was going with that....

Yup. Interesting to see those who have a some sense of practicality
against the dreamers or those who believe every word they read in ads.

--
*60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Or reliable long-life batteries on a swappable pallet. This isn't
completely infeasible.

Hmm. Given they're likely to cost several thousand pounds the logistics
sound horrendous. You might as well just operate a vehicle pool.

So why not? Vehicle pools are borderline practical too (in sensible
mainland European countries).

Hmm. I'd like to see some real world figures. Somehow I can't see a
general pool system working in the legacy of Thatcher Britain.

Have you seen the recent publications
from MIT (that's in Boston, the European quarter of the USA) on concepts
for poolable urban podcars?

No - but concepts often are just that.

The Prius already effectively has a pooled battery, because of the high
capital cost and the extensive warranty this entails to make it
affordable without excess risk on each owner.

Err, it's done by Toyota being happy to lose money on each Prius they sell
- subsidised by the sales of their conventional vehicles. Which can't go
on for ever.

As batteries generally age better when being used rather than ignored in
storage (measured as total energy stored over their lifetime) then a
circulating pool with good charging techniques and centralised
maintenance when needed could even increase their useful lifespan enough
to make their pooling economic overall. Integrated cell monitoring is
already well-enough developed to allow reasonable charging-by-use, and
for preventative replacement to make on-road failures insignificant.

I'm probably just a cynic but I can't see it working for general use.

--
*Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Adrian wrote:

[...]

But I do do high-mileage runs.

Me too.

I only do ~8-15,000miles/year but most of it is in 5-900miles/day chunks.

There's a LOT of people who do a LOT more miles than that.
For them, electric vehicles are unusable. THAT is my point.

No current electric vehicle can average 80+mph for 600miles and then
return the same evening; my petrol car can, with ease.

Oh, and guess what? The vehicles that do the most miles tend to be bigger
(Who does 50,000 miles per year in a Corsa?) and - of course - use more
fuel and emit more pollutants...

I'd love to have a second (town) car because running a continent crusher
as urban transport makes no sense; I use taxis.




A

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

[...]

There's a LOT of people who do a LOT more miles than that. For
them, electric vehicles are unusable. THAT is my point.

You don't have a point as re-charge stations will be about. You are
confused...and slow.

Petrol is very portable high density energy.

There is no infrastructure to distribute similar amounts of energy as
electricity.

You could fit charge points at every petrol station tomorrow. You
could not provide sufficient electricity within a decade to replace the
petrol mileage.




A

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

[...]

So enlighten us.

Read this first:
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002435.html
The Toshiba battey can be charged to 80% in few minutes.

Yes, but the energy stored must be brought to the battery - fine for a
few, much new infrastructure to generate and distribute the energy we
use today.

..and 200 miles range and 0 to 60 in 5 secs:
http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features38

Almost as quick and half as fast as my petrol car which can be refuelled
in ~3minutes every ~300-400miles.

Then Google on Lithium Ion and Lithium Poly. FIND OUT instead of making
a prat of yourself. There is enough idiotic prats on these groups
without adding to the numbers.

Current hydrocarbon fuels offer an unrivalled power density, any
replacement is going to face problems with distribution as well as range
per fuelling. There is a lot of space for electric and hybrid vehicles
in (sub)urban situations but they are no cure-all.





A

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

Amazing. This one thinks electric cars should be abandoned because he
want to go 600 mile with a re-fill. Boy do some mothers 'ave 'em.

I don't mind refuelling more often than that. A 15min break every
300miles makes sense.

I do want to travel 1000miles in a day occasionally.



A

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...

[...]

None of the links that you gave referred to the round trip charge
efficiency of the batteries used.

Do feel free to try again.

Then use the links in the links. Do you know how to use Google? I
don't think you do as you come across as dumb

If I construct a stainless steel fuel tank today which, filled with
hydrocarbon fuel, gives a range of 200miles it will give a range of *at*
*least* 200miles 20 years from now no matter how often it is refilled.

How far will any battery capable of moving you 200miles today carry you
in 20 years?

...in 20 charge cycles?

....200?





A

"DJC" wrote in message
. uk...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The VAST MAJORITY ofpeople do NOT exceed 200 miles in a day for most
journeys. That is EASILY catered for on overnight charging at 3KW.
...
All trtis are to and from your house by and large, or someone elses. Or
the
supermarket - charge in an hour while you shop.

Even in families withmore than one car few want to be limited to a vehicle
that cannot do all kinds of journey as required. I live in a city centre,
I have a car that may not be used for a week or more, many of the trips I
make might be done in something more favoured in economic or ecological
circles; or even not done at all. But sometimes I do need and want to
travel 200km or more at the drop of a hat, or carry awkward loads, or
provide transport for others. And I can't or won't be delayed by the need
to hire or pre-book or constrained by timetables ans schedules that do not
suit.
Until alternative fuels offer equivalent convinience there will be little
demand

That is the whole point, electric can. Once in numbers charging stations
emerge that charge up in 3 to 5 mins.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
John Wright wrote:
In article ,
John Wright wrote:
At the moment the Prius batteries are running at more than £3,500 a
piece.

So 3500 quid for a battery with a range of only a couple of miles at
town speeds.

So one with a range of at least 200 miles at motorway speeds costs...

You can see where I was going with that....

Yup. Interesting to see those who have a some sense of practicality
against the dreamers or those who believe every word they read in ads.

Did the add for your taps say they can work on any pressure?

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Or reliable long-life batteries on a swappable pallet. This isn't
completely infeasible.

Hmm. Given they're likely to cost several thousand pounds the logistics
sound horrendous. You might as well just operate a vehicle pool.

So why not? Vehicle pools are borderline practical too (in sensible
mainland European countries).

Hmm. I'd like to see some real world figures. Somehow I can't see a
general pool system working in the legacy of Thatcher Britain.

Have you seen the recent publications
from MIT (that's in Boston, the European quarter of the USA) on concepts
for poolable urban podcars?

No - but concepts often are just that.

The Prius already effectively has a pooled battery, because of the high
capital cost and the extensive warranty this entails to make it
affordable without excess risk on each owner.

Err, it's done by Toyota being happy to lose money on each Prius they sell
- subsidised by the sales of their conventional vehicles. Which can't go
on for ever.

More tripe.

** snip babble **

"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...
Adrian wrote:

[...]

But I do do high-mileage runs.

Me too.

I only do ~8-15,000miles/year but most of it is in 5-900miles/day chunks.

There's a LOT of people who do a LOT more miles than that.
For them, electric vehicles are unusable. THAT is my point.

No current electric vehicle can average 80+mph for 600miles and then
return the same evening; my petrol car can, with ease.

How often do you go across deserts? Some of you people are in cloud cuckoo
land with no idea of reality.

"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

[...]

There's a LOT of people who do a LOT more miles than that. For
them, electric vehicles are unusable. THAT is my point.

You don't have a point as re-charge stations will be about. You are
confused...and slow.

Petrol is very portable high density energy.

There is no infrastructure to distribute
similar amounts of energy as
electricity.

Read back on the thread.

You could fit charge points at every petrol station tomorrow. You
could not provide sufficient electricity within a decade to replace the
petrol mileage.

You are guessing.

"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

[...]

So enlighten us.

Read this first:
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002435.html
The Toshiba battey can be charged to 80% in few minutes.

Yes, but the energy stored must be brought to the battery - fine for a
few, much new infrastructure to generate and distribute the energy we
use today.

Cables are everywhere.

..and 200 miles range and 0 to 60 in 5 secs:
http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features38

Almost as quick and half as fast
as my petrol car which can be refuelled
in ~3minutes every ~300-400miles.

But your petrol car is an antiquate piece of junk that pollutes and wastes
like mad. A 200 - 300 mile range of an EV can be charged in 3 to 5 mins.
400? What desert are you crossing today?

Then Google on Lithium Ion and Lithium Poly. FIND OUT instead of making
a prat of yourself. There is enough idiotic prats on these groups
without adding to the numbers.

Current hydrocarbon fuels offer an
unrivalled power density,

Do they?

"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...

Amazing. This one thinks electric cars should be abandoned because he
want to go 600 mile with a re-fill. Boy do some mothers 'ave 'em.

I don't mind refuelling more often than that. A 15min break every
300miles makes sense.

I do want to travel 1000miles in a day occasionally.

So we abandon clean simple tranport because some goons want to drive around
in antiquated technology on one long shot. Get real.

Alistair J Murray wrote:

No current electric vehicle can average 80+mph for 600miles and then
return the same evening; my petrol car can, with ease.


.. . . apart from a train picking up electricity from overhead lines or
the rails.

--
Ian Edwards

He's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged.

Adrian wrote:

Allegedly, that's going to need 1600Amp at 250v to recharge fully in 5
mins. Dunno about you, but my house has a 100A main fuse.

OK, so let's say three-phase at 415v. That's only just under 1000A.

Assuming 100% charging efficiency.

What sort of heat is the battery going to generate under that sort of
charge?

Typical 12 volt lead-acid automotive battery has an internal resistance
of 0.01 ohms. Let's be very generous and let Drivel's magic battery
have an internal resistance just a tenth of that, 0.001 ohms.

I²R gives 1600 x 1600 x 0.001 = 2,560 watts . . . hhmmmm!

--
Ian Edwards

He's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged.

Ian Edwards wrote:
Adrian wrote:

Allegedly, that's going to need 1600Amp at 250v to recharge fully in 5
mins. Dunno about you, but my house has a 100A main fuse.

OK, so let's say three-phase at 415v. That's only just under 1000A.

Assuming 100% charging efficiency.

What sort of heat is the battery going to generate under that sort of
charge?

Typical 12 volt lead-acid automotive battery has an internal resistance
of 0.01 ohms. Let's be very generous and let Drivel's magic battery
have an internal resistance just a tenth of that, 0.001 ohms.

I²R gives 1600 x 1600 x 0.001 = 2,560 watts . . . hhmmmm!


2.5kW dissipation for 5 minutes in a large battery bank with ducts and
fans: is it really an insurmountable problem?


NT