"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Conor wrote:
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel says...

A truck is a truck - it transports materials from one place to
another.

Wrong. One is called an earth mover. The other drives on the road.

Dribble should also note that Tonka sell trucks...

And band-Id sell plasters and bandages for cut on the hand when people can't
use tools when fitting taps that don't work.

Adrian wrote:
raden ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying :

I remember saying that there wasn't, and inviting you to do the maths
to prove that it wasn't - but you waved your hands and bull****ted
instead.

And you were expecting, what, exactly ?

I'm posting from uk.transport. Dribble is a new character here...

Not totally, he has posted here using other aliases. He's a nymshifting
troll. His previous personal best that you may recall was his attempts
to push "Cataclean", snake oil which is supposed to renew a catalytic
converter when added to the fuel tank, which he claimed had been tested
and approved by the Lancashire police.

Sadly for Drivel, I know some of the blokes in the garage at Hutton
Hall, so I asked them about his claims and they laughed, loud and long.

Do I take it he has a history over in uk.d-i-y?

Just a bit of one. Serial bull****ter.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology. The high charge
density lightweight batteries have much lower thermal efficiencies
than lead-acid batteries.

I find it interesting that many car makers are going to expensive
lengths
to save weight - extensive use of aluminium etc. But still fit lead
acid
batteries - where cost really isn't a consideration.

It's because lead acid batteries don't need complex charge
controllers, work across a wide range of environmental temperatures
and provide huge cranking currents time after time. They are big,
rough and tough and also extremely efficient compared to any of the
alternatives around.

The last sentence proves you know ZERO about batteries.

Please feel free to contradict me with facts instead of bluster.

Read the thread and the links. You know ZERO about batteries - and
electric cars for that matter.

Please feel free to contradict me with facts instead of bluster.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:35:15 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology. The high charge density
lightweight batteries have much lower thermal efficiencies than
lead-acid batteries.
I find it interesting that many car makers are going to expensive lengths
to save weight - extensive use of aluminium etc. But still fit lead acid
batteries - where cost really isn't a consideration.

It's because lead acid batteries don't need complex charge controllers,
work across a wide range of environmental temperatures and provide huge
cranking currents time after time. They are big, rough and tough and
also extremely efficient compared to any of the alternatives around.
Where they fail is on charge per kg which is where Lithium based
batterys win. Where Lithium batteries fail is on charge/discharge
cycles, efficiency and the need for complex charge cycles and careful
management of discharge.

Actually, most of that is utter tosh.

Sadly, not so.

Lithium bateries have almost excatly te same charge characteists as Lead
Acid - constant current with a contsant voltage limit.

200-1000 cycles or about 3 years, whichvere is first, is teh cycle time.

A 70Ah LIPO battery will, on current technolgy, provide about 2KA without
exploding for maybe 5-10 seconds. It will certainly provide 1KA
continuously.

And can be charged at up to 70A..more than most alternators can deliver.

This is not theoretical knowledge: This is how we fly these *******s.

Sure and by doing so you get a relatively poor round trip efficiency
from the battery. If you want to get the best out of Lithium batteries,
i.e. to get a round trip efficiency of 90% then both charge and
discharge need to be controlled as described, otherwise more of the
energy is going into waste heat. It's possible to get Lithium batteries
down to 50% efficiency if you trea them like lead acid batteries.

You can treat a battery rough if you're not bothered about efficiency.

The downside is the cost - $1000 currently, though in volume they should
be no more expensive than lead acid ultimately - and safety. The high
discharge rates are achieved by using a fairly aggressive and inflammable
organic polymer, and it can and does, ocasionally go pop under adverse
contitins (over temeperatire, shorting, over charging) and cause a seriosu
fire hazard.

So can a lead acid if course.

Ther are other, heavier and lower charge/discharge rate batteries coming
along that are less flammable. These should be suitable for car usage.

"coming along", "should be".

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04 Jan 2006 14:41:11 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

As 90% plus of us live in towns and cities our lungs matter.
Doesn't "North London" count as a "town or city", then?

Because you've already claimed that pollution from an industrial accident
arising from the generation/transmission/storage of energy for
transportation will drift over North London.

The fact that Buncefield's fire was primarily aviation fuel seems to have
slipped you by, too.

Or will your utopia have electric planes, too?

I already fly them :-)

However no, energy density is not and will never be enough for commercial
planes...those will lilely be repalced by high speed trains for overland
routes, and by biofuel or hydrogen for intercontinental flight.
[snip]

If hydrogen were to be used for commercial flight, the body of the jet
would have to be the fuel tank and the number of passengers carried
would be the limited to whoever could crowd into the back of the cockpit
and the lavatory.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Conor ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

The largest trucks in the world use electric motors.

Really? Proof? Used in general haulage are they? Austrailia has some
of the heaviest road going trucks there are. They're all diesel.

And they're *TINY* compared to some of the really big stuff out there.

Think of quarries and mines.

The largest trucks in the world tend to be hydraulically driven,

No, electric motors propel them.

yawn

They are diesel/electric.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04 Jan 2006 14:36:40 GMT, Adrian wrote:
s.
Indeed. And, when you add in the 70% charging losses estimated elsewhere,

Drivel. That IS drivel. About 5% charging and about 2% discharging.
Real world figures. Not wavy hand magic estimates.
Why not buy yourself some an test them?

Those are best possible figures for LiIon and you're ignoring the losses
in the charger as well. Overcharge the battery and all the energy is
wasted, discharge it too rapidly and more energy is wasted. Real world
estimates of round trip efficiency for LiIon range between 55% and 95%.

"Steve Firth" fresh from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
Adrian wrote:
raden ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying :
I remember saying that there wasn't, and inviting you to do the maths
to prove that it wasn't - but you waved your hands and bull****ted
instead.

And you were expecting, what, exactly ?

I'm posting from uk.transport. Dribble is a new character here...

Not totally, he has posted here using other aliases.

I haven't, **** Kicker.

He's a nymshifting troll. His previous personal best that you may recall
was his attempts to push "Cataclean", snake oil

What is Cataclean?

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
[snip]
Have you wiped the blood of those tools yet?

Just remind me, who was it used a hacksaw to cut plastic pipe,

I did on a number of occasions.

against the manufacturer's advice,

Nope they said a number tools can be used.

then complained that the joints leaked?

Not because of the perfect clean cut, the fitting was faulty. I would know
that and you would not being a **** kicker.

When are you going to face up to your problem?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I do know that LIPS charge cooler than nickels by a long chalk..on an hour
'fast charge'; they barely get warm.

Meanwhile, in the real world, my phone battery gets up to about 40C
while charging, and the laptop battery to the same. This is why to get a
decent efficiency out of lithium batteries used for traction there needs
to be both charge and discharge management. Otherwise you will end up
throwing away electrical energy as heat.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:35:15 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology. The high charge density
lightweight batteries have much lower thermal efficiencies than
lead-acid batteries.
I find it interesting that many car makers are going to expensive
lengths
to save weight - extensive use of aluminium etc. But still fit lead
acid
batteries - where cost really isn't a consideration.

It's because lead acid batteries don't need complex charge controllers,
work across a wide range of environmental temperatures and provide huge
cranking currents time after time. They are big, rough and tough and
also extremely efficient compared to any of the alternatives around.
Where they fail is on charge per kg which is where Lithium based
batterys win. Where Lithium batteries fail is on charge/discharge
cycles, efficiency and the need for complex charge cycles and careful
management of discharge.

Actually, most of that is utter tosh.

Sadly, not so.

Sadly it was. It was totally and utter tot. When are you going to face up
to your problem?

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Adrian wrote:

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from the spare battery pack. Or
do you just carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?

All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology.

Your knowledge of current batteries is less than ZERO.

Please feel free to contradict me with facts, rather than baseless
assertions.

READ THE THREAD AND THE LINKS. I shouted it for you - see? Boy you
are dumb.

None of the links that you gave referred to the round trip charge
efficiency of the batteries used.

Do feel free to try again.

Then use the links in the links. Do you know how to use Google? I
don't think you do as you come across as dumb

You mean it's completely beyond you to point out which part of the
material you are referring to is relevant?

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04 Jan 2006 14:41:11 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Doctor Drivel ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :
As 90% plus of us live in towns and cities our lungs matter.
Doesn't "North London" count as a "town or city", then?

Because you've already claimed that pollution from an industrial
accident arising from the generation/transmission/storage of energy for
transportation will drift over North London.

The fact that Buncefield's fire was primarily aviation fuel seems to
have slipped you by, too.

Or will your utopia have electric planes, too?

I already fly them :-)

However no, energy density is not and will never be enough for commercial
planes...those will lilely be repalced by high speed trains for overland
routes, and by biofuel or hydrogen for intercontinental flight.
[snip]

If hydrogen were to be used for commercial flight, the body of the jet
would have to be the fuel tank and the number of passengers carried would
be the limited to whoever could crowd into the back of the cockpit and the
lavatory.

My God. When are you going to face up to your problem?

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Conor ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

The largest trucks in the world use electric motors.

Really? Proof? Used in general haulage are they? Austrailia has some
of the heaviest road going trucks there are. They're all diesel.

And they're *TINY* compared to some of the really big stuff out there.

Think of quarries and mines.

The largest trucks in the world tend to be hydraulically driven,

No, electric motors propel them.

yawn

They are diesel/electric.

Electric motors propel them. When are you going to face up to your problem.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 01:54:56 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:

Adrian wrote:

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from the spare battery pack. Or do you just
carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?
All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology. The high charge density
lightweight batteries have much lower thermal efficiencies than
lead-acid batteries.

As you wil notice if you try charging any LiIon, NiCd or NiMH battery.
See how toasty and warm it gets while charging? And feel how warm if
gets while discharging as well. It's a lose/lose technology.

You are talking as much drivel as drivel.

Ah good, proof by assertion

Then of course there's the high internal discharge of Lithium Ion
batteries to consider. If I filled the car with petrol, left it at the
airport while I went on holiday and came back to find it empty, I would
suspect theft or a leak. With a Lithium Ion powered car I can expect to
have to charge it when I get back.

Not so energy efficient.

Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Conor ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

The largest trucks in the world use electric motors.

Really? Proof? Used in general haulage are they? Austrailia has some
of the heaviest road going trucks there are. They're all diesel.

And they're *TINY* compared to some of the really big stuff out there.

Think of quarries and mines.

The largest trucks in the world tend to be hydraulically driven,

No, electric motors propel them.

yawn

They are diesel/electric.

Electric motors propel them.

How much of a battery pack will be needed to replace 10.5 ton of 3650bhp
Detroit diesel?

How do sizeable AC motors run off batteries without significant losses?

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" fresh from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
Adrian wrote:
raden ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying :
I remember saying that there wasn't, and inviting you to do the maths
to prove that it wasn't - but you waved your hands and bull****ted
instead.

And you were expecting, what, exactly ?

I'm posting from uk.transport. Dribble is a new character here...

Not totally, he has posted here using other aliases.

I haven't, **** Kicker.

Oh dear that's a lie, and a very obvious lie.

He's a nymshifting troll. His previous personal best that you may
recall was his attempts to push "Cataclean", snake oil

What is Cataclean?

It was explained in the text that you snipped.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

And band-Id sell plasters and bandages

No they don't.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" fresh from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
Adrian wrote:
raden ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying :
I remember saying that there wasn't, and inviting you to do the maths
to prove that it wasn't - but you waved your hands and bull****ted
instead.

And you were expecting, what, exactly ?

I'm posting from uk.transport. Dribble is a new character here...

Not totally, he has posted here using other aliases.

I haven't, **** Kicker.

Oh dear that's a lie, and a very obvious lie.

He's a nymshifting troll. His previous personal best that you may recall
was his attempts to push "Cataclean", snake oil

What is Cataclean?

It was explained in the text that you snipped.

Well if you explained it, it can't be right, as you never get anything
right.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04 Jan 2006 14:36:40 GMT, Adrian wrote:
s.
Indeed. And, when you add in the 70% charging losses estimated
elsewhere,

Drivel. That IS drivel. About 5% charging and about 2% discharging.
Real world figures. Not wavy hand magic estimates.
Why not buy yourself some an test them?

Those are

No. It was total drivel.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Adrian wrote:

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from the spare battery pack. Or do
you just carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?

All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology.

Your knowledge of current batteries is less than ZERO.

Please feel free to contradict me with facts, rather than baseless
assertions.

READ THE THREAD AND THE LINKS. I shouted it for you - see? Boy you are
dumb.

None of the links that you gave referred to the round trip charge
efficiency of the batteries used.

Do feel free to try again.

Then use the links in the links. Do you know how to use Google? I don't
think you do as you come across as dumb

You mean it's completely beyond you to point out which part of the
material you are referring to is relevant?

Normal people would figure this out.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 01:54:56 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:

Adrian wrote:

Indeed. If you're not 500 miles from the spare battery pack. Or do you
just carry half a ton of spare battery in the boot?
All of Drivel's theories are blown away by the poor thermal
characteristics of current battery technology. The high charge density
lightweight batteries have much lower thermal efficiencies than
lead-acid batteries.

As you wil notice if you try charging any LiIon, NiCd or NiMH battery.
See how toasty and warm it gets while charging? And feel how warm if
gets while discharging as well. It's a lose/lose technology.

You are talking as much drivel as drivel.

Ah good,

Yes you are drivelling.

"Phil Bradshaw" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 244.170...
Conor ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they
were saying :

The largest trucks in the world use electric motors.

Really? Proof? Used in general haulage are they? Austrailia has some
of the heaviest road going trucks there are. They're all diesel.

And they're *TINY* compared to some of the really big stuff out there.

Think of quarries and mines.

The largest trucks in the world tend to be hydraulically driven,

No, electric motors propel them.

yawn

They are diesel/electric.

Electric motors propel them.

How much of a battery pack will be needed to replace 10.5 ton of 3650bhp
Detroit diesel?

How do sizeable AC motors run off batteries without significant losses?

Toshiba may be able to help you out here. You know what. In WW1 and WW2
batteries propelled tons of metal through water...called submarines.

In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
Nope, in large civil and strip mining projects. Largest trucks in the
world move by electric motors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebherr_T_282B
According to the link, the truck is D/E, prime mover diesel.

Another one who can't read. 'Largest trucks in the world move by
electric motors'. Boy are their some dumb people here.
Yes I'm sure you're dumb. If your diesel electric truck is electric,
then the U.K. has no diesel locomotives, something I don't think anyone
else will agree with.
--
Clive

In article , Steve Firth says...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
[snip]
Have you wiped the blood of those tools yet?

Just remind me, who was it used a hacksaw to cut plastic pipe, against
the manufacturer's advice, then complained that the joints leaked?

ROFLMAO....priceless.


--
Conor

Windows & Outlook/OE in particular, shipped with settings making them
as open to entry as a starlet in a porno. Steve B

"Conor" wrote in message
t...
In article , Steve Firth says...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
[snip]
Have you wiped the blood of those tools yet?

Just remind me, who was it used a hacksaw to cut plastic pipe, against
the manufacturer's advice, then complained that the joints leaked?

ROFLMAO....priceless.

No. Hacksaws are very cheap, not priceless.

Conor wrote:
In article , Steve Firth says...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
[snip]
Have you wiped the blood of those tools yet?
Just remind me, who was it used a hacksaw to cut plastic pipe, against
the manufacturer's advice, then complained that the joints leaked?

ROFLMAO....priceless.

As is every tale from Drivel's life. He's a salesman's dream, he studies
all the catalogues parrots whole phrases from them and still doesn't
understand what he's read. Don't get him started on magnetic water
"softeners" though, he gets very peevish.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

However, no one says that is how it has to be. We are seeng the first
entry of serious LIPO pwer into power tools. That market will allow of
significantly larger cells to be mass prioduced. Enough topower e.g.
electric scooters. Japan will probably be awash with them shortly.


Its only a small step up to urban 'Smart' cars..


I remember the same being said when Ni-Cads became common. Still waiting...

Similarly, I can recall Zinc/air batteries (recharge by exchanging the
battery) in the 50's. Still waiting.

Regards
Capitol

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Let say we can get an average performance car, for under £20k that will do
about 3p a mile fuel costs, 200 mile range, and apart from tyres, zero
maintenance for 150k miles. Would you buy it?

No. My Twingo cost £4k eight years ago, it was four years old and had
done 5000km. It has now exceeded 200,000km. It will take me from London
to Rome in two days at the drop of hat. Or a on a two mile round
shopping trip. The service costs have tended to be concentrated on the
suspension, a different power source wouldn't change that.


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
Nope, in large civil and strip mining projects. Largest trucks in the
world move by electric motors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebherr_T_282B
According to the link, the truck is D/E, prime mover diesel.

Another one who can't read. 'Largest trucks in the world move by electric
motors'. Boy are their some dumb people here.

Yes I'm sure you're dumb. If your diesel electric truck is electric,
then the U.K. has no diesel locomotives, something I don't think anyone
else will agree with.

The UK has no diesel Locomotives? Boy are their some dumb people here.

"Steve Firth" fresh from kicking **** wrote in
message ...

ROFLMAO....priceless.

As

** snip drivel **

This **** Kicker needs professional help. He hasn't got single thing right
in this thread.

"DJC" wrote in message
. uk...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Let say we can get an average performance car, for under £20k that will
do
about 3p a mile fuel costs, 200 mile range, and apart from tyres, zero
maintenance for 150k miles. Would you buy it?

No. My Twingo cost £4k eight years ago, it was four years old and had
done 5000km. It has now exceeded 200,000km. It will take me from London to
Rome in two days at the drop of hat. Or a on a two mile round shopping
trip.

All that noise!! Wow! You poor sod.

In article ,
Conor wrote:
In article , Steve Firth says...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
[snip]
Have you wiped the blood of those tools yet?

Just remind me, who was it used a hacksaw to cut plastic pipe, against
the manufacturer's advice, then complained that the joints leaked?

ROFLMAO....priceless.

You're not a reader of uk.d-i-y Conor, so wouldn't believe the crap
dribble posts. He claims to be a 'heating engineer' - with a relevant
degree - but as mentioned can't even cut plastic pipe correctly, and then
argues with the maker who replies to the thread and tells him he's a
useless c**t.

Worth doing a Google on Adam, IMM, Dr Evil etc to find out some more of
his rubbish. But most of his posts will just read 'snip drivel' since he
can't cope with people who know more than him. Ie, everyone.

--
*A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes
The UK has no diesel Locomotives? Boy are their some dumb people here.
The first statement is your assertion.
--
Clive

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...

[...]

Yes, but the energy stored must be brought to the battery - fine
for a few, much new infrastructure to generate and distribute the
energy we use today.

Cables are everywhere.

Thin ones running close to 100% already.

..and 200 miles range and 0 to 60 in 5 secs:
http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features38

Almost as quick and half as fast as my petrol car which can be
refuelled in ~3minutes every ~300-400miles.

But your petrol car is an antiquate piece of junk that pollutes and
wastes like mad. A 200 - 300 mile range of an EV can be charged in 3
to 5 mins. 400? What desert are you crossing today?

Sometimes I drive to Sweden, in a day.

That's 800 miles at 80mph - no biggie in a petrol car...

Current hydrocarbon fuels offer an unrivalled power density,

Do they?

Yes.





A

"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Alistair J Murray" wrote in message
...

[...]

Yes, but the energy stored must be brought to the battery - fine
for a few, much new infrastructure to generate and distribute the
energy we use today.

Cables are everywhere.

Thin ones running close to 100% already.

Which will need replacing then and then bigger thicker cables installed.

..and 200 miles range and 0 to 60 in 5 secs:
http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features38

Almost as quick and half as fast as my petrol car which can be
refuelled in ~3minutes every ~300-400miles.

But your petrol car is an antiquate piece
of junk that pollutes and wastes like mad.
A 200 - 300 mile range of an EV can be charged in 3
to 5 mins. 400? What desert are you crossing today?

Sometimes I drive to Sweden, in a day.

And pass countless filling stations along the way.

That's 800 miles at 80mph - no
biggie in a petrol car...

Current hydrocarbon fuels offer an unrivalled power density,

Do they?

Yes.

Look again.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Conor wrote:
In article , Steve Firth says...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
[snip]
Have you wiped the blood of those tools yet?

Just remind me, who was it used a hacksaw to cut plastic pipe, against
the manufacturer's advice, then complained that the joints leaked?

ROFLMAO....priceless.

You're not a reader of uk.d-i-y Conor, so wouldn't believe the crap
dribble posts. He claims to be a 'heating engineer' - with a relevant
degree - but as mentioned can't even cut plastic pipe correctly,

Richard Cranium here, has just fitted some taps. He fitted high pressure
taps instead of low pressure so has a dribble of water. Not only that he
cut the tails off the the taps, instead of cutting back the pipes...duh!!!!.
Yes he did. He said he never had a leak....lying senile old coot. ...and
all the tools are full of blood as well.

Hilarious. Oh. He also has not serviced his boiler for 12 years and tells
everyone top do the same. These people should not be allowed in front of a
computer.

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:51:57 +0000, Clive wrote:

In message . 170,
Adrian writes
No engine, exhaust, cooling system, fuel tank, 4wd transmission... Just
batteries and lightweight hub motors.
This is rubbish, it'll be lighter to have a smaller motor running faster
and geared down. A hub motor would have very low starting torque
extremely high currents and need to be force ventilated at town speeds.

No, it wouldn't.

At town speeds the power is very low.

You do need a lot of poles on a bhub motr to get useable efficiencies at
low RPM, and I accept that I haven;t done the calculations totally - but
there are some protypes using that.

Its certainly possible to get down to less an 100.RPM or so on a big
diametr multipole motor. From memory in top gear my old midgets on 15"
wheels had about 4:1 final ratios on 6K RPM, so peak wheel RPM was about
1500..so a hub motor is not totally out of court.

As far as heating goes..well full power is the worst cae mainly..you
wouldn't slap full current through the motor to start it - too destructive.
If we take a 50bhp motor - about 37KW - and go for a shoddy 90% efficiency,
thats 3.7KW at full chat loss wise.

With a finned casing out on the air,it should not be hard to hold that down
to the 100C or so necessary to protect te magnets from demagnetising.

BUT as with all things car, its unlikley you would hold full power for any
length of time. Thernal sensors in teh motor would in any case hold temp
rises down to what was deemed acceptable.

If permanent magnets are not used (or cobalt magnets) up to 200C is
probably permissible.

If it was necessary to gear, I'd expect to use epicyclic boxes in the hubs.

Unlike a car, where about 3/4 of the input power has to be got rid of,
electric motors generate MUCH less heat. This may cause cities to become a
lot colder, but so what?

On 06 Jan 2006 11:10:12 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Clive ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

No engine, exhaust, cooling system, fuel tank, 4wd transmission... Just
batteries and lightweight hub motors.

This is rubbish, it'll be lighter to have a smaller motor running faster
and geared down. A hub motor would have very low starting torque
extremely high currents and need to be force ventilated at town speeds.

http://www.japanesecarfans.com/news....id/2050824.001

is the best article I've found on the MIEV.

Yup. That's exactly how I was envisaging it.

It will be fascinating to see what they achieve with this.

My guess is it will have enough power, but only about 100 miles
range...driven hardish,

Handling should be excellent with the battery weight spread out low down,
and fairly low unsprung weight.

There appears to be very little under the bonnet or in the boot at all -
just the speed control/inverters Those probably would be fan cooled.

As an adaptation of an existing IC car, it doesn';t really do the
technology justice though...we found in the toy plane areana, that we could
modify strutcures and shapes to acheive lighter overall weight..you didn't
need to carry a big vibrating lump of IC engine..in the car, the strength
around the engine mounting area is no longer needed to take the weight
torque and vibration of 2200bhp of petrol engine,..but the suspension
itself will be taking ALL the torque from the wheesl, rather than e.g. the
differential..

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:22:32 +0000, Clive wrote:

In message . 170,
Adrian writes
This is rubbish, it'll be lighter to have a smaller motor running faster
and geared down. A hub motor would have very low starting torque
extremely high currents and need to be force ventilated at town speeds.

http://www.japanesecarfans.com/news....id/2050824.001

is the best article I've found on the MIEV.
It's still rubbish, even the fastest railway locos which have low torque
to get high speeds are geared at 3:1.

*shrug* I agree and I disagree.

Use of rotating large diameter multi-magnet motors has become prevalent in
my little microcosm, They are not as efficient as geared coil over magnet
designs at higher RPM, its true - typically 80% versus 90%...however
overall losses are comparable, as are weights, because the gearbox itself
introduces losses and weights..

However the real reason they are popular is because its a lot easier to
wind the coils, and they are a lot simpler than geared designs, hence
cheaper.

Electric trains are probably built to exacting specs for top performance,
and have very little suspension needs.

Cars are different: you need a cheap mass produced motor,and suspension is
is a huge issue. If Mistubishi can get their unsprung weight down enough
using this design., and get effective computer controlled all wheel
drive..at less overall weight that computer controlled diffs etc, then one
has to respect their judgement.