Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week
including owner's views. Far too long to quote here - it's several pages -
and it's not on the website. So anyone interested will just have to buy
it. ;-)

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

Which are here. It is matter of getting production up and the price down.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week
including owner's views. Far too long to quote here - it's several pages -
and it's not on the website. So anyone interested will just have to buy
it. ;-)

This is the mag that said the Prius did 26mpg, according to the senile one,
when everyone else gets 60 plus. 100s of reports say 60mpg plus but this
says 26mpg. Wow, now they really are worth taking notice of, aren't they.
Duh!

Yup. Dragging all that dead wright about sure improves the thirst of
that V6....

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:08:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

'Any' battery that needs charging, unless charged environmentally
friendlylyly simply moves the pollution / problem elsewhere .. hence
'flawed' ...

A hydrid car that only charges it's batteries via energy initially
input from an IC engine (that should cover the 'regen braking' fans)
is an IC engined powered car. If it's charged from the 'mains' (in the
UK) then it's a gas / oil powered car ..

I own several (pure) electric vehicles and they are certianly not the
solution to the problem. Hybrid'ing simply increases the range /
performance it does not provide a solution (even with a 'synergy
drive' lol) or hasn't yet (when hybrids can do many more mpg than
many 'stock' cars today then we might be getting somewhere).

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. How warm do you have to keep the garage for your hybrid /
electric car in the winter (to reduce cold battery capacity loss ..)
and where does that heating energy come from? ;-)

T i m wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:08:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

'Any' battery that needs charging, unless charged environmentally
friendlylyly simply moves the pollution / problem elsewhere .. hence
'flawed' ...

A hydrid car that only charges it's batteries via energy initially
input from an IC engine (that should cover the 'regen braking' fans)
is an IC engined powered car. If it's charged from the 'mains' (in the

AIUI the point is that it is (or can be) a more efficient IC engine
powered car since the IC engine can always be run under the most fuel
efficient conditions instead of being geared to the road wheels.

MBQ

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:08:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

'Any' battery that needs charging, unless charged environmentally
friendlylyly simply moves the pollution / problem elsewhere .. hence
'flawed' ...

A hydrid car that only charges it's batteries via energy initially
input from an IC engine (that should cover the 'regen braking' fans)
is an IC engined powered car. If it's charged from the 'mains' (in the
UK) then it's a gas / oil powered car ..

I own several (pure) electric vehicles and they are certianly not the
solution to the problem. Hybrid'ing simply increases the range /
performance it does not provide a solution (even with a 'synergy
drive' lol) or hasn't yet (when hybrids can do many more mpg than
many 'stock' cars today then we might be getting somewhere).

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. How warm do you have to keep the garage for your hybrid /
electric car in the winter (to reduce cold battery capacity loss ..)
and where does that heating energy come from? ;-)

One must not engage in botty talk.

wrote in message
oups.com...

T i m wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:08:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this
week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

'Any' battery that needs charging, unless charged environmentally
friendlylyly simply moves the pollution / problem elsewhere .. hence
'flawed' ...

A hydrid car that only charges it's batteries via energy initially
input from an IC engine (that should cover the 'regen braking' fans)
is an IC engined powered car. If it's charged from the 'mains' (in the

AIUI the point is that it is (or can be) a more efficient IC engine
powered car since the IC engine can always be run under the most fuel
efficient conditions instead of being geared to the road wheels.

Yet, and that they do. The hybrid is regarded as a stop-gap before fuel
cells come in. Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg. So, this may push the fuel cell
cars back further. Then put on a super smooth and quiet Stirling engine
instead of the IC and matters are even better. The best is yet to come.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Yet, and that they do. The hybrid is regarded as a stop-gap before fuel
cells come in. Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

Stop telling lies, dribble.

--
*Life is hard; then you nap

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article .com,
wrote:
AIUI the point is that it is (or can be) a more efficient IC engine
powered car since the IC engine can always be run under the most fuel
efficient conditions instead of being geared to the road wheels.

Only while there's some battery charge. Once that is exhausted, the petrol
engine is effectively driving the wheels direct, but via a generator and
electric motor or some form of split drive. Hence the poor consumption
under those conditions.

--
*I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

They keep on saying these have arrived. But the idea of using a petrol
engine is purely for the US where there is a great resistance to deisel.
No one makes a hybrid diesel because a plain diesel with the same
performance is more fuel efficient.

--
*Half the people in the world are below average.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Yet, and that they do. The hybrid is regarded as a stop-gap before fuel
cells come in. Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

Stop

** snip senile botty talk **

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article .com,
wrote:

AIUI the point is that it is (or can be) a more efficient IC engine
powered car since the IC engine can always be run under the most fuel
efficient conditions instead of being geared to the road wheels.

Only

** snip lots of botty talk **

On 25 Nov 2005 04:41:19 -0800, wrote:


T i m wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:08:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

'Any' battery that needs charging, unless charged environmentally
friendlylyly simply moves the pollution / problem elsewhere .. hence
'flawed' ...

A hydrid car that only charges it's batteries via energy initially
input from an IC engine (that should cover the 'regen braking' fans)
is an IC engined powered car. If it's charged from the 'mains' (in the

AIUI the point is that it is (or can be) a more efficient IC engine
powered car since the IC engine can always be run under the most fuel
efficient conditions instead of being geared to the road wheels.

Oh, indeed, and there is no question that different transmissions have
different efficiencies (and why a bicycle has 21 gears when it only
(typically) has a top speed of 20 mph .. it's because the 'engine' is
so low powered and has a restricted rev range?) 'and' that running IC
(and other) engines at specific rev ranges / temperatures allows
better efficiencies.

However, I believe, with all of the above, we are still 'w a y' off
them providing much of an avantage, compared with the better end of
todays more traditional offerings .. all things considered?

All the best ..

T i m

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

They keep on saying these have arrived.

Correct they have. I have one. They are here definately.

** snip lots of senile botty talk **

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 12:58:08 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

miles per gallon of what?


--

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On 25 Nov 2005 04:41:19 -0800, wrote:
T i m wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:08:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
through haze of senile flatulence wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this
week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

'Any' battery that needs charging, unless charged environmentally
friendlylyly simply moves the pollution / problem elsewhere .. hence
'flawed' ...

A hydrid car that only charges it's batteries via energy initially
input from an IC engine (that should cover the 'regen braking' fans)
is an IC engined powered car. If it's charged from the 'mains' (in the

AIUI the point is that it is (or can be) a more efficient IC engine
powered car since the IC engine can always be run under the most fuel
efficient conditions instead of being geared to the road wheels.

Oh, indeed, and there is no question that different transmissions have
different efficiencies (and why a bicycle has 21 gears when it only
(typically) has a top speed of 20 mph .. it's because the 'engine' is
so low powered and has a restricted rev range?) 'and' that running IC
(and other) engines at specific rev ranges / temperatures allows
better efficiencies.

However, I believe, with all of the above, we are still 'w a y' off
them providing much of an avantage, compared with the better end of
todays more traditional offerings .. all things considered?

There is much ill-informed botty talk above. A hell of a lot of it.

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 12:58:08 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Battery technology has leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

miles per gallon of what?

Lord Hall, mpg of Multimasters. That you can probably understand.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:41:27 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


Oh, indeed, and there is no question that different transmissions have
different efficiencies (and why a bicycle has 21 gears when it only
(typically) has a top speed of 20 mph .. it's because the 'engine' is
so low powered and has a restricted rev range?) 'and' that running IC
(and other) engines at specific rev ranges / temperatures allows
better efficiencies.

However, I believe, with all of the above, we are still 'w a y' off
them providing much of an avantage, compared with the better end of
todays more traditional offerings .. all things considered?

There is much ill-informed botty talk above. A hell of a lot of it.

Bless .. Ok, I know your tricycle has 'direct drive' but you must
accept (maybe once the medication has worn off) there is a real world
out there. One that hasn't yet discovered perpetual motion or 130 mpg
batteries .. ;-)

All the very best with your recovery ..

T i m

"T i m" engaging in botty talk wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:41:27 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Oh, indeed, and there is no question that different transmissions have
different efficiencies (and why a bicycle has 21 gears when it only
(typically) has a top speed of 20 mph .. it's because the 'engine' is
so low powered and has a restricted rev range?) 'and' that running IC
(and other) engines at specific rev ranges / temperatures allows
better efficiencies.

However, I believe, with all of the above, we are still 'w a y' off
them providing much of an avantage, compared with the better end of
todays more traditional offerings .. all things considered?

There is much ill-informed botty talk above. A hell of a lot of it.

Bless ..

** snip lots of Timmy botty talk **

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:58:17 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week
including owner's views. Far too long to quote here - it's several pages -
and it's not on the website. So anyone interested will just have to buy
it. ;-)

This is the mag that said the Prius did 26mpg, according to the senile one,
when everyone else gets 60 plus. 100s of reports say 60mpg plus but this
says 26mpg. Wow, now they really are worth taking notice of, aren't they.
Duh!

Real world, 54 (UK) mpg .. (source: Prius forum) fantastic.

I'll pass till they get it working properly thanks ..

T i m

(p.s. And 'bigger batteries' will only make the (real) mpg worse ....)

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

They keep on saying these have arrived.

Correct they have. I have one. They are here definately.

1293 Prius cars sold between 2000 and 2003 in the UK. The new model has
done better. But the original grant of 1000 quid was reduced to 700 and
has now stopped because Powershift has run out of money. And figures for
after this ain't available yet.

Given that the UK has just about the highest fuel cost if they really did
achieve 130 mpg day by day as you claim everyone would buy one.

--
*The average person falls asleep in seven minutes *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:58:17 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week
including owner's views. Far too long to quote here - it's several
pages -
and it's not on the website. So anyone interested will just have to buy
it. ;-)

This is the mag that said the Prius did 26mpg, according to the senile
one,
when everyone else gets 60 plus. 100s of reports say 60mpg plus but this
says 26mpg. Wow, now they really are worth taking notice of, aren't
they.
Duh!

Real world, 54 (UK) mpg .. (source: Prius forum) fantastic.

I'll pass till they get it working properly thanks ..

Auto Express got 65mpg.

In article ,
Matt wrote:
Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

miles per gallon of what?

Bull****?

--
*Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

All this efficiency is just great but do these hybrid vehicles
reduce ten mile by three hour waits on the M6, M25, M62 et al at all?

Chris.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
This is the mag that said the Prius did 26mpg, according to the senile
one, when everyone else gets 60 plus. 100s of reports say 60mpg plus
but this says 26mpg. Wow, now they really are worth taking notice of,
aren't they. Duh!

Real world, 54 (UK) mpg .. (source: Prius forum) fantastic.

There are two owner reports on the Prius in the article. Both like their
cars of course. One living in Feltham, which is a suburb of London,
doesn't give a figure but admits it's nothing like the claimed combined
65.7mpg. Nor would it be expected to be so given those tests are for
comparison between conventional vehicles and not a guarantee of what
you'll get in practice as everyone who drives a car knows.

The other owner is in rural Hampshire but claims 60 mpg.

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article .com,
wrote:
All this efficiency is just great but do these hybrid vehicles
reduce ten mile by three hour waits on the M6, M25, M62 et al at all?

They'll certainly be 'more' economical under those conditions. Apart from
in the very cold weather, though, obviously.

--
*If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:58:17 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week
including owner's views. Far too long to quote here - it's several
pages -
and it's not on the website. So anyone interested will just have to buy
it. ;-)

This is the mag that said the Prius did 26mpg, according to the senile
one,
when everyone else gets 60 plus. 100s of reports say 60mpg plus but this
says 26mpg. Wow, now they really are worth taking notice of, aren't
they.
Duh!

Real world, 54 (UK) mpg ..

US mpg.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better
batteries.

They keep on saying these have arrived.

Correct they have. I have one. They are here definately.

1293 Prius cars

** snip boring senile stuff **

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Matt wrote:
Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

miles per gallon of what?

Bull****?

Lots more botty talk here.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
T i m wrote:

This is the mag that said the Prius did 26mpg, according to the senile
one, when everyone else gets 60 plus. 100s of reports say 60mpg plus
but this says 26mpg. Wow, now they really are worth taking notice of,
aren't they. Duh!

Real world, 54 (UK) mpg .. (source: Prius forum) fantastic.

The other owner is in rural Hampshire but claims 60 mpg.

Which is about right.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:12:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Matt wrote:
Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

miles per gallon of what?

Bull****?

Can't be anything but :-)


--

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:12:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Matt wrote:
Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

miles per gallon of what?

Bull****?

Can't be anything but :-)

Lord Hall, that stuff is free. But is all cars ran on it the price would go
right up.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Real world, 54 (UK) mpg .. (source: Prius forum) fantastic.

The other owner is in rural Hampshire but claims 60 mpg.

Which is about right.

Just love the way you comment on things you agree with but snip things you
don't, pratt.

I'd expect a car used in a rural area to far exceed the combined figure.
Not that you'd understand how it's arrived at given your total inability
to interprate figures.

Now either go out and buy the mag so you can give informed comment on it
or just **** off.

--
*One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Bull****?

Can't be anything but :-)

Lord Hall, that stuff is free. But is all cars ran on it the price
would go right up.

Please reduce the resolution of your screen so your failing eyesight can
actually see what you've typed. Or better still ask your nurse to check it
for you.

--
*Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Real world, 54 (UK) mpg .. (source: Prius forum) fantastic.

The other owner is in rural Hampshire but claims 60 mpg.

Which is about right.

Just love

** the senility is getting the best of him. He is now into love **

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Bull****?

Can't be anything but :-)

Lord Hall, that stuff is free. But if all cars ran on it the price
would go right up.

Please

**snip more senile botty talk **

In article ,
says...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:08:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

'Any' battery that needs charging, unless charged environmentally
friendlylyly simply moves the pollution / problem elsewhere .. hence
'flawed' ...

Until you can get fuel cells with sufficient capacity at a sensible
cost, and charge then at home with solar, wind or nuclear power, hybrid
and electric vehicles are really just a way of shifting pollution out of
cities. Carting all those heavy batteries around is never going to be a
sensible solution.

In article ,
says...
On 25 Nov 2005 04:41:19 -0800, wrote:


T i m wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:08:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

'Any' battery that needs charging, unless charged environmentally
friendlylyly simply moves the pollution / problem elsewhere .. hence
'flawed' ...

A hydrid car that only charges it's batteries via energy initially
input from an IC engine (that should cover the 'regen braking' fans)
is an IC engined powered car. If it's charged from the 'mains' (in the

AIUI the point is that it is (or can be) a more efficient IC engine
powered car since the IC engine can always be run under the most fuel
efficient conditions instead of being geared to the road wheels.

Oh, indeed, and there is no question that different transmissions have
different efficiencies (and why a bicycle has 21 gears when it only
(typically) has a top speed of 20 mph .. it's because the 'engine' is
so low powered and has a restricted rev range?) 'and' that running IC
(and other) engines at specific rev ranges / temperatures allows
better efficiencies.

The large number of gears on bikes is as much to do with the mechanism
as the need for many ratios close together. A lot of the ratios in a
21/24/27 speed setup are either duplicated or useless (you shouldn't use
the larger rear sprockets with the large chainwheel, the largest or
smallest sprockets with the middle chainwheel or the smaller sprockets
with the smallest chainwheel because it causes excessive wear and loss
of efficiency).
Many years ago when building my "dream bike" I spec'ed a 14-17-20-24-28
block with a 32-52 chainset, which gave a wide spread of evenly spaced
gears with no duplication - I soon realised that using ratios around the
middle of the range (which is where you usually spend most of your time)
required a lot of double-shifting, which just isn't convenient.