On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:31:48 GMT, "Gary H. Lucas"
wrote:


wrote in message
roups.com...

John Scheldroup wrote:

Hybrid Cars Gas Mileage Impact Calculator

Interesting Site, but it has easily identifiable flaws.

I put in my Astro Van vrses Prius. Sure, the prius won, but that was
because they listed the Astro at 15mpg, verses Prius at 56mpg.

The Flaw here is my Astro does NOT get that low ball 15MPG on the
highway. The Prius reference of 56MPG IS their Highway MPG's, and is
supported by discussions in Newsgroups (actually, I have only seen 55
mentioned as a high)

I make 400 mile trips a few times a year with that Van. Running
anywhere from Chicago traffic to 85MPH, Air Conditioning on and with a
slight tailwind, I will get 24-25MPG.
The Van will NOT get better mileage at slower speeds. It has 253,000
miles on and climbing.

Run those numbers and the perspective changes.

Next, I load my Wifes Late model Monte Carlo. I had to Chuckle as
again, the Prius MPG was up at 56, and they placed the Monte at 22MPG.
HA ! I have NOT gotten less than 30MPG on the highway doing the same
trip above !

Finally, the references to the Cadillac are inaccurate as well. I KNOW
owners... You can find casual data in other newsgroups, heres one
comment:

Our experience echos this, we routinely get 18.5+ mpg around town and
upwards
of 27-30 on the highway when cruising at 70 mph...

So they have that wrong as well. Looks like the Prius is always given
the highway MPG numbers, but they do not use highay MPG for other cars.
I did a couple others as well in which I know what they really get.

Myself, I guess I would expect exactly that from a calculator on a
webpage called Hybrid.com, where the uno numero priority objective is
to make hybrids look really really impressive. Too bad a lot of people
fall all over crap like that without getting accurate data.

Grummy

I also drove an Astro for 140,000 miles and the second one for 40,00 before
someone wrecked me. In the family electrical business we had our own gas
pump, and CAREFULLY logged every fill up and every mile for years and years
of data on all kinds of vehicles, from a Ford Escort and Datsun pickup to an
all wheel drive digger derrick. The Datsun pickup got 25 Mpg, and the
digger got 2.1mpg. Yeah you had to fill the 30 gallon tank on that sucker
at about every gas station you passed! I can honestly tell you I don't
believe your mileage figures, because the numbers we have gotten on well
maintained vehicles is far less than what everyone else has claimed. Also
back in the gas crunch of the seventies the truck drivers all claimed their
trucks were more efficient at 65 than 55 because they were geared for that
speed. Basic physics says that wind drag and efficiency will be less as you
go faster. In test after test with the truck driver driving his own truck,
using a calibrated cylinder of diesel no truck driver ever got better
mileage.

Gary H. Lucas

Gary,
You seem to have missed the "slight tailwind" used in the Astrovan
calcs. I think a 30 mph tailwind is slight. I mean, it could be.
Though some people might consider a 50 mph tailwind slight. Besides,
he was probably drafting semi trucks. I tried that on my bike years
ago. Really saves on gas.
Eric

Nissan Avenir (Sentra) with CD20 diesel motor - gets 50mpg (thats Imperial
gallons - convert to US gallons yourself) of diesel. It has done this for
the last 180,000km I have been driving my car. This is a station wagon that
will take 5 people, and has enough space in the back that I can sleep in it
with the back seat folded away. Why buy an expensive little hatchback, with
expensive batteries?

On 28 Sep 2005 20:30:07 -0700, wrote:

Brand New Toyota Sienna my brother bought.... Turns 29MPG out of the
box on weekly 160 mile out and backs..... That site shows it at only
22mpg.

Is the AC on or off?
That can be almost 5 MPG.

Lots of variables. Tires & inflation being a big one ....
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

Is the AC on or off?
That can be almost 5 MPG.

I am sure he was definately running the Air when he turned those
numbers because as you know all too well, Global Warming is so darn hot
you would risk heat exhaustion without it.

I disagree with the 5Mpg difference on any recent vehicle.
Older vehicles used to just about croak when the pump kicked in if the
"up idle" device was not functioning. Recent vehicles don't seem to
take such a "dive" because they are smaller.

You might want to consider selling your '64 Plymouth Valiant and move
up to something more efficient to back up your proclaimed "Green-ness"

All that said, my Monte always turns 30 (open road), and I don't recall
ever getting 35, but I always have the air on in the summer. I doubt it
will turn 35 at least routinely.....


Lots of variables.

Sure. Some of those could be made a whole lot better though to minimize
the effect.

One, put a switch on the dash to control whether the cruise control
should gas it for every hill and let off for every downhill or not. A
"Throttle LOCK" of sorts will turn better mileage in most cases.

Next, some AC pumps run continuously, others kick in and out. Kick in
and out makes more sense to me, but it seems few new cars do that.
Regarding that, a vacuum switch should come from the factory to kick
out the AC pump on harder acceleration. It should even be adjustable by
the owner.

Last, Cars should come with a digital throttle position display. You
well know that you can just barely press the accelerator down, hold it
there, and you will be going faster than you imagined. We ALL seem to
overfeed in order to get up to speed.

When your not in the way of anyone, an "indicator" of sorts would let
you press down just what it takes to go, say, 55mph on flat and level
ground. Doing so will eventually get you there.

Now for those that did't believe what I said I get with my Astro, I do
practice a wierd hobby whenever no one is behind me. My Van seems to
Roll like crazy on its own, so, I routinely try to guess how soon to
get off the gas and still get to an upcoming turn...

I know, wierd, but it is amazing how far you actually can get when you
let off the gas. Of course when you "run out of gas", you never seem to
coast far enough.

Grummy

On 29 Sep 2005 18:01:25 -0700, wrote:

Cliff wrote:

Is the AC on or off?
That can be almost 5 MPG.

I am sure he was definately running the Air when he turned those
numbers because as you know all too well, Global Warming is so darn hot
you would risk heat exhaustion without it.

I disagree with the 5Mpg difference on any recent vehicle.

Try it on a nice hot day & see.
You probably don't have a rather precise MPG indicator
that can be set & reset as you drive (on level highway,
55 MPH IIRC, no head or tailwind).
I do.
Others, with larger vehicles, may do worse than I do ..... "almost".
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

You probably don't have a rather precise MPG indicator
that can be set & reset as you drive (on level highway,
First off, I always check the odometer to the highway markers.....

And I am NOT quoting "computer" statistics on my vehicles, I am talking
Fill and do the math. I had an Audi that the computer was way way off
(no suprise really), but My Monte is/has been dead on.

55 MPH
Who the heck goes THAT slow for any period of time ??

Like I said, Better sell your '57 Belvedere Wagon and step up to
something a little better for the environment.

Grummy

jimmy wrote:

At 65 MPH, mileage was 52 MPG.
At 55 MPH, mileage was 57 MPG.
At 45 MPH, mileage was 72 MPG.

Bought a 4 door 5spd new in '93. Came back from a 1000 mile round trip
(500 miles), doing as high as 85mph in 95 degree heat. 2 fillups as I
recall, and well over 50mpg IIRC.
(I've owned another used one since, maybe two.....hard to remember - I
have had near 300 different cars over the years - if it was made, I
likely had one for at least a while G)

Car costed me just under $7000 for that kind of mileage ( I think I had
some discounts). Was not all that doggy really... Drove like a go-Cart.

People who bought the "Miser" model reported highs of 58-59mpg.
(for those confused, this is the Highest observed highway mpg, NOT
average over many years)

Not bad for a inexpensive car under $8000.... Whats a Prius Cost again
??

Suzuki 3 bangers sure produced mpg's for a little outlay !
(for those who jump to say they were junk, I had one with close to
200,000 miles on it, and have seen a running original with 340,000 on
it - not bad for a "piece of junk")

Please dont bother with the "ya but that was not a real car" or "I
wouldnt want to get in an accident with one" comments..... This is
soley an MPG discussion, thats all.

Grummy

On 30 Sep 2005 21:22:35 -0700, wrote:


Cliff wrote:

You probably don't have a rather precise MPG indicator
that can be set & reset as you drive (on level highway,
First off, I always check the odometer to the highway markers.....

I mentioned no such odometer.

And I am NOT quoting "computer" statistics on my vehicles, I am talking
Fill and do the math. I had an Audi that the computer was way way off
(no suprise really), but My Monte is/has been dead on.

When the fuel used by fillup == the fuel used per the electronics
(+/- about a tenth of a gallon) the electronics are fairly accurate.

55 MPH

We were speaking of maximizing MPG, right?

Who the heck goes THAT slow for any period of time ??

When the signs say 55 MPH ...... or for testing on empty
highway G.

Like I said, Better sell your '57 Belvedere Wagon and step up to
something a little better for the environment.

I did the math .....
--
Cliff

On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 18:25:52 GMT, (DaveB) wrote:

On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 10:31:21 -0400, Cliff wrote:

On 30 Sep 2005 21:56:56 -0700, wrote:

But that does not appear to be the case with that "hybrid" website, and
THAT is my point. It lists the Prius in particular, at 56mpg. I know it
does not get 56mpg on average. What I do know is what people are
reporting that it gets, and that is UP TO 55mpg on the highway. Some
early owners indicated they only could get 40-45 on the highway.

Is that a 55 MPH or a 70 MPH highway?
--
Cliff

Data from independent product-testing organization Consumer Reports
indicates that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates
while navigating city streets. In Consumer Reports' real-world driving
test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota
Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates
of 47 and 60 mpg. Hybrid cars performed much closer to EPA estimates
in Consumer Reports' highway test.


Regards

Daveb
In the meantime, my Geezermobile ( '05 Echo w/ auto tranny, AC ) has
been getting 40+ mpg on mostly city driving.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On 1 Oct 2005 19:01:25 -0700, wrote:


(DaveB) wrote:
Hybrid cars performed much closer to EPA estimates in Consumer Reports' highway test.

Oh no ! Now with this added info, poor Cliff is likely still confused
on what "highway" means......

You don't know, eh?

Sounds like something else I heard once.....

Keep begging G.
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

I mentioned no such odometer.

I Know you didn't. I figured somebody should tell you that if you want
halfways accurate calculations figuring MPG's, you better FIRST make
sure your odometer logs 1 mile when 1 mile is driven. Maybe that is why
your '61 Stude Lark doesn't turn the MPG's you wish it did ??

Grummy

Cliff wrote:
On 30 Sep 2005 21:56:56 -0700, wrote:

got lost

Understandable, I expect.

Funny thing is, I can blame it on the tree huggers ! For Real !

There is a big fight near a marsh area to BAN a company from putting up
Wind generators.

The fight was once to not build a dirty old power plant. Now that we
are literally out of power (strangely enough, those who opposed it
still want their new gadgets to work) So, when they try to do
windpower, suddenly the birds in the marsh are too stupid to fly
around, and they are all worried that they will get killed by the
props. Not that they have any EVIDENCE that birds are that dumb, just
that they like to oppose everything.

In any event, there had been a whole lot of opposition, including
people knocking down traffic signs. There were no signs marking
crossroads and such for a state highway.

Think what you will, but I know those doing so are not referred to as
"righties".... H'mmmm. and you wonder why your side is looked upon as a
little kooky.

Yep, I got lost. "understandable" - for you ? Were YOU knocking signs
over Cliff ??

Cliff wrote:
Keep begging G.

For you to "Get a Grip" ???? I think it is way to late for that to
happen. There is an obvious loss of brain matter for anything to sink
in on your end. Your "BENT" for the side of real hatred.

Grummy