On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:03:30 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Real world, 54 (UK) mpg .. (source: Prius forum) fantastic.

The other owner is in rural Hampshire but claims 60 mpg.

Which is about right.

Just love the way you comment on things you agree with but snip things you
don't, pratt.

I'd expect a car used in a rural area to far exceed the combined figure.
Not that you'd understand how it's arrived at given your total inability
to interprate figures.

Now either go out and buy the mag so you can give informed comment on it
or just **** off.

Did you OP in the hope that Drivel might have forgotten that he said
he'd got a Prius Dave?

Or that the months of electric shocks (some medical, some playing with
mains components) may actually have made him better?

Even membership to the ever exciting 'Prius Owners Club' with such
games as "guess the hybrid part" doesn't seem to have helped him ..
see pics

http://homepage.mac.com/priustech/Pr...toAlbum19.html

So, like anyone with the reasoning abilities of a cuttlefish, rampant
snipping and name calling is about par for the course?

All the best ..

T i m

"Owain" wrote in message
. ..
T i m wrote:
Bless .. Ok, I know your tricycle has 'direct drive'

It

...Owain. Owain, Owain we go
...he gives us info we don't want to know
...the info is so poor tis clearly true
...so how does this garbage affect you?

...well take no heed of babble and drool
...as instantly you will recognise a fool

...instictively you will spy
...in newsgroups with DIY
...attempting wisdom the fools will try

...so be very watchful of what the fools say
...and don't give these half-wits the time of day

The Hygrogen Fuel engine that BMW are throwing millions at is a far
better proposition .. waste product is only water ... Hydrogen is easy
to produce and not a fossil fuel.
No heavy batteries to crat about (with dubious life)
They already have concepts up and running ... filling time at pump is
very fast, and the liquid hydrogen is stired in what sound like a
sponge, and is safer than petrol in the event of a collision.

Knowing BMW it will have a HUGE price penalty, as just about
everything is an extra (and very expensive extra at that)

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:08:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:00:20 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Very interesting article about this flawed concept in Autocar this
week

There's nothing wrong with the concept, we just need better batteries.

'Any' battery that needs charging, unless charged environmentally
friendlylyly simply moves the pollution / problem elsewhere .. hence
'flawed' ...

Until you can get fuel cells with sufficient capacity at a sensible
cost, and charge then at home with solar, wind or nuclear power, hybrid
and electric vehicles are really just a way of shifting pollution out of
cities. Carting all those heavy batteries around is never going to be a
sensible solution.

Have you ever weighed a full fuel tank -£50s worth?. Per weight modern
state-of-the-art batteries pack a hell of a lot of energy. These batteries
are not available in volume yet.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:03:30 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
through a haze of senile flatulence wrote:

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Real world, 54 (UK) mpg .. (source: Prius forum) fantastic.

The other owner is in rural Hampshire but claims 60 mpg.

Which is about right.

Just love the way you comment on things you agree with but snip things
you
don't, pratt.

I'd expect a car used in a rural area to far exceed the combined figure.
Not that you'd understand how it's arrived at given your total inability
to interprate figures.

Now either go out and buy the mag so you can give informed comment on it
or just **** off.

Did you OP

** snip more Timmy botty talk **

"Rick" wrote in message
oups.com...
The Hygrogen Fuel engine that BMW are throwing millions at is a far
better proposition .. waste product is only water ... Hydrogen is easy
to produce

It is? Look again. Takes a lot of energy like oil. That is why Bush likes
it.

and not a fossil fuel.

Fossil fuel to produce it. Hydrogen is not in a natural state, it has to be
cracked to get it.

No heavy batteries to crat about (with dubious life)

Modern batteries, Lith Ion, Lith poly as exceptional. Toyota give a 8 years
guarantee on the battery set.

They already have concepts up and running ... filling time at pump is
very fast,

One in Iceland apparently.

and the liquid hydrogen is stired in what sound like a
sponge, and is safer than petrol in the event of a collision.

Don't let the policeman hear you.

Knowing BMW it will have a HUGE price penalty,

And painted black.

as just about
everything is an extra (and very expensive extra at that)

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Now either go out and buy the mag so you can give informed comment on it
or just **** off.

Did you OP in the hope that Drivel might have forgotten that he said
he'd got a Prius Dave?

Not really - it's an interesting article. Dunno if it will be on their
website later.

Basically it says they're a con and can't compete in economy with a same
performance diesel but cost a lot more. And that's before any replacement
costs. But that just about all makers are having to go down that route if
they want a slice of the US market.

--
*I speak fluent patriarchy but it's not my mother tongue

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:16:10 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:12:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Matt wrote:
Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

miles per gallon of what?

Bull****?

Can't be anything but :-)

Lord Hall, that stuff is free. But is all cars ran on it the price would go
right up.

A battery pack achieving "130mpg" bends the basic rules of physics
just like a couple of "2.173 litre per 100km Duracells" fitted in a
Maglite does.

I'm not Lord Hall either.


--

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Have you ever weighed a full fuel tank -£50s worth?. Per weight modern
state-of-the-art batteries pack a hell of a lot of energy. These
batteries are not available in volume yet.

Ok then. Quote the weight and amp hours of these batteries. No?

Your usual non understanding of things technical.

--
*Speak softly and carry a cellular phone *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:16:10 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:12:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Matt aka Lord Hall wrote:
Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

miles per gallon of what?

Bull****?

Can't be anything but :-)

Lord Hall, that stuff is free. But if all cars ran on it the price would
go
right up.

A battery pack achieving "130mpg" bends the basic rules of physics
just like a couple of "2.173 litre per 100km Duracells" fitted in a
Maglite does.

Lord Hall, http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
T i m wrote:
Now either go out and buy the mag so you can give informed comment on
it
or just **** off.

Did you OP in the hope that Drivel might have forgotten that he said
he'd got a Prius Dave?

Not really - it's an interesting article.

This is the mag that said a Prius did 26mpg. No one else has managed to get
less than 50mpg yet. The mag is sham and only idiots believe it.

** snile naive senile tripe **

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulenece wrote in message ...
In article ,

Basically it says they're a con and can't compete in economy with a same
performance diesel but cost a lot more.

From a Prius owner who posted on this news group:
"After driving a Prius, driving any kind of manual diesel vehicle feels like
stepping onto a Fordson tractor."

** snip senile tripe ***

"Dave Plowman (News)" through haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Have you ever weighed a full fuel tank -£50s worth?. Per weight modern
state-of-the-art batteries pack a hell of a lot of energy. These
batteries are not available in volume yet.

Ok

** snip more botty talking senility **

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:15:35 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Have you ever weighed a full fuel tank -£50s worth?. Per weight modern
state-of-the-art batteries pack a hell of a lot of energy. These
batteries are not available in volume yet.

Ok then. Quote the weight and amp hours of these batteries. No?

Your usual non understanding of things technical.

And, he's stuck with the full weight of his batteries (even if they
were flat) whereas we would average a half tank / weight even if we
filled to the brim every time (and I don't).

T i m

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:28:48 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulenece wrote in message ...
In article ,

Basically it says they're a con and can't compete in economy with a same
performance diesel but cost a lot more.

From a Prius owner who posted on this news group:
"After driving a Prius, driving any kind of manual diesel vehicle feels like
stepping onto a Fordson tractor."

** snip senile tripe ***

But, as usual, you are deflecting the point.

The 'point' of hybrid vehicles is to provide a better mpg / reduce
pollutiuon compared with a 'std' vehicle.

If someone want's seamless and silent comfort I suggest they would buy
a 'luxury car', not a weird compromise?

Unlike you I passed my test (first time) and in a manual .. never had
any problem dealing with gears ever since ..

'Bad workman' .. ?

All the best ..

T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:28:48 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulenece wrote in message ...
In article ,

Basically it says they're a con and can't compete in economy with a
same
performance diesel but cost a lot more.

From a Prius owner who posted on this news group:
"After driving a Prius, driving any kind of manual diesel vehicle feels
like
stepping onto a Fordson tractor."

** snip senile tripe ***

But, as usual, you are deflecting the point.

Nope.

The 'point' of hybrid vehicles is to provide a better mpg / reduce
pollutiuon compared with a 'std' vehicle.

And that they do.

If someone want's seamless and silent comfort I suggest they would buy
a 'luxury car', not a weird compromise?

I agree. That is why I bought a Prius.

** snip moribund silliness **

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:15:35 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
through a haze of senile flatulence wrote:

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Have you ever weighed a full fuel tank -£50s worth?. Per weight modern
state-of-the-art batteries pack a hell of a lot of energy. These
batteries are not available in volume yet.

Ok then. Quote the weight and amp hours of these batteries. No?

Your usual non understanding of things technical.

And,

** snip moribund silliness **

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
** the senility is getting the best of him. He is now into love **

Which you wouldn't recognise, since no-one's ever loved you in your
lifetime.

Women swoon over me, falling in love a by the dozen.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Women swoon over me, falling in love a by the dozen.

No those are eggs, not women...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:16:10 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:12:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Matt aka Lord Hall wrote:
Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

miles per gallon of what?

Bull****?

Can't be anything but :-)

Lord Hall, that stuff is free. But if all cars ran on it the price
would
go
right up.

A battery pack achieving "130mpg" bends the basic rules of physics
just like a couple of "2.173 litre per 100km Duracells" fitted in a
Maglite does.

Lord Hall, http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html


That is a car that is charged from the mains.
I thought you understood that that creates lots of pollution and the mpg
figures are meaningless as far as pollution is concerned.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Women swoon over me, falling in love a by the dozen.

No those are eggs, not women...

Such Essex wit. Does it come naturally?

"dennis@home" wrote in message
.uk...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:16:10 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:12:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Matt aka Lord Hall wrote:
Battery technology have leaped and some Prius cars with
larger battery packs are getting 130mpg.

miles per gallon of what?

Bull****?

Can't be anything but :-)

Lord Hall, that stuff is free. But if all cars ran on it the price
would
go
right up.

A battery pack achieving "130mpg" bends the basic rules of physics
just like a couple of "2.173 litre per 100km Duracells" fitted in a
Maglite does.

Lord Hall, http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html

That is a car that is charged from the mains.

Read it again. It may be charged from the mains and the internal charger
charge the batteries too.

I thought you understood that that creates lots of pollution and the mpg
figures are meaningless as far as pollution is concerned.

The electricity it uses is overnight which normally would be wasted, that is
why they offer economy 7 and 19 and 34, etc, when using overnight
electricity.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...


Have you ever weighed a full fuel tank -£50s worth?. Per weight modern
state-of-the-art batteries pack a hell of a lot of energy. These
batteries
are not available in volume yet.


Mines about 45kg but it only holds £40 worth.
How much charge can you get in 45kg of battery?

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:
AIUI the point is that it is (or can be) a more efficient IC engine
powered car since the IC engine can always be run under the most fuel
efficient conditions instead of being geared to the road wheels.

Only while there's some battery charge. Once that is exhausted, the petrol
engine is effectively driving the wheels direct, but via a generator and
electric motor or some form of split drive. Hence the poor consumption
under those conditions.

So am I right in thinking that (roughly speaking) for continuous running a
conventional system is more efficient, whereas doing a lot of shuffling
along in heavy traffic a hybrid can be better? Has anyone done the figures
(for current production technology conventional and hybrids) to work out
which would be better averaged out over national traffic patterns? In other
words, if you were to replace the entire national car fleet overnight with
equivalent hybrids would net fuel consumption increase or decrease?

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Rick" wrote in message
oups.com...
The Hygrogen Fuel engine that BMW are throwing millions at is a far
better proposition .. waste product is only water ... Hydrogen is easy
to produce

It is? Look again. Takes a lot of energy like oil. That is why Bush
likes
it.

and not a fossil fuel.

Fossil fuel to produce it. Hydrogen is not in a natural state, it has to
be
cracked to get it.

I do believe you are learning.

Now if the hydrogen were produced by solar/wind it would be good.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Rick" wrote in message
oups.com...
The Hygrogen Fuel engine that BMW are throwing millions at is a far
better proposition .. waste product is only water ... Hydrogen is easy
to produce

It is? Look again. Takes a lot of energy like oil. That is why Bush
likes
it.

and not a fossil fuel.

Fossil fuel to produce it. Hydrogen is
not in a natural state, it has to
be cracked to get it.

I do believe you are learning.

Now if the hydrogen were produced by solar/wind it would be good.

Good thinking me boy. But do you know how much energy it takes to crack it?

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
eenews.net...

The electricity it uses is overnight which normally would be wasted, that
is
why they offer economy 7 and 19 and 34, etc, when using overnight
electricity.


The electricity isn't wasted at night.
It is just capacity that is not earning revenue at night.

Its better to reduce the daytime demand and use more of the capacity at
night.
This is why storage heaters were invented.

wrote in message
...

So am I right in thinking that (roughly speaking) for continuous running a
conventional system is more efficient,

No. The hybrid is equally as efficient on say motorway runs, if not
better.. In towns conventional then fall apart in efficiency.

whereas doing a lot of shuffling
along in heavy traffic a hybrid can be better?

A hybrid is infinitely better as it claws back kinetic energy when braking.
They are also brilliant to drive, unlike manual tractor like diesels.

Has anyone done the figures
(for current production technology conventional and hybrids) to work out
which would be better averaged out over national traffic patterns? In
other
words, if you were to replace the entire national car fleet overnight with
equivalent hybrids would net fuel consumption increase or decrease?

Well Prius and Honda users are getting an average of 60mpg, with vastly
reduced emissions in towns. The Prius is largish car, with an interior the
size of a Camry. That should tell you something. Most auto makers are
having hybrids in their ranges. Batteries have improved a hell of lot and
when production is up and prices down they will make the hybrid even more
efficient and attractive. They only way to go - in smooth style.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
.uk...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
eenews.net...

The electricity it uses is overnight which normally would be wasted,
that
is
why they offer economy 7 and 19 and 34, etc, when using overnight
electricity.


The electricity isn't wasted at night.
It is just capacity that is not earning revenue at night.

Nope.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

Now if the hydrogen were produced by solar/wind it would be good.

Good thinking me boy. But do you know how much energy it takes to crack
it?


Electrolysis me boy.
water into hydrogen and oxygen.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

Now if the hydrogen were produced by solar/wind it would be good.

Good thinking me boy. But do you know how much energy it takes to crack
it?

Electrolysis me boy.
water into hydrogen and oxygen.

That is the process. I said "do you know how much energy it takes to crack
it?"

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
This is the mag that said a Prius did 26mpg.

That's the overall figure they got including maximum speed testing - a
total distance of about 1000 miles. Dreadful isn't it? And Toyota didn't
argue. If it wasn't typical under those circumstances they'd have
submitted another car for test.

No one else has managed to get less than 50mpg yet.

It only managed 42 mpg on a gentle touring route. Worse than cars with
much better performance which cost far less.

The mag is sham and only idiots believe it.

I'd believe it over any other since they test a car thoroughly. You just
read ads and believe every word.

--
*When companies ship Styrofoam, what do they pack it in? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
From a Prius owner who posted on this news group: "After driving a
Prius, driving any kind of manual diesel vehicle feels like stepping
onto a Fordson tractor."

Then the man's a fool. Prone to massive exaggeration. Was it you posting
under yet another alias?

** snip senile tripe ***

The only way you could to that is to snip your keyboard...

--
*It ain't the size, it's... er... no, it IS ..the size.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
If someone want's seamless and silent comfort I suggest they would buy
a 'luxury car', not a weird compromise?

I agree. That is why I bought a Prius.

To go with your DB6? Where do you park them on your council estate?
Wouldn't the money have been better spent on a decent house?

--
*Work is for people who don't know how to fish.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
That is a car that is charged from the mains.

Read it again. It may be charged from the mains and the internal charger
charge the batteries too.

It says 100mpg + electricity, fool. Which means precisely nothing. One day
you'll learn how to read and understand adverts. How many e-mails from
Nigeria have you replied to?

--
*El nino made me do it

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
Only while there's some battery charge. Once that is exhausted, the
petrol engine is effectively driving the wheels direct, but via a
generator and electric motor or some form of split drive. Hence the
poor consumption under those conditions.

So am I right in thinking that (roughly speaking) for continuous running
a conventional system is more efficient, whereas doing a lot of
shuffling along in heavy traffic a hybrid can be better?
Yes - with lots of stop start stuff obviously an electric motor which
doesn't idle will be more efficient *at that time*. Of course if you want
heating or air-con, this will make a big difference.

Has anyone done the figures (for current production technology
conventional and hybrids) to work out which would be better averaged out
over national traffic patterns? In other words, if you were to replace
the entire national car fleet overnight with equivalent hybrids would
net fuel consumption increase or decrease?

Autocar have a standard test route over which they take all the cars they
test. It's about 30 miles long and involves a mixture of suburban high
streets and 50 mph highways. The Prius managed 42 mpg over this journey.
Almost exactly the same as a BMW 330D - a very fast diesel. Any other
small diesel - Focus etc - is nearer 60 mpg over the same route.

--
*Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
This is the mag that said a Prius did 26mpg.

That's the overall figure they got including maximum speed testing - a
total distance of about 1000 miles. Dreadful isn't it? And Toyota didn't
argue. If it wasn't typical under those circumstances they'd have
submitted another car for test.

No one else has managed to get less than 50mpg yet.

It only managed 42 mpg on a gentle touring route. Worse than cars with
much better performance which cost far less.

Maybe the wind was blowing

--
geoff

wrote:

So am I right in thinking that (roughly speaking) for continuous running a
conventional system is more efficient, whereas doing a lot of shuffling
along in heavy traffic a hybrid can be better? Has anyone done the figures

Quite probably. The prius gains some efficency from running the IC
engine in a non standard cycle that would usually be too lumpy to drive
with a conventional drive train, but then it also has to move all the
electric baggage about as well.

So in stop start conditions where it can accumulate surplus energy in
the electrics, it gets to spread out the demands on the IC engine, and
can (short term) produce more power than is available from the engine
alone. So good in city situations.

During sustained performance oriented driving however it will get hit
with the multiple whammy ofnot being able to sustain significant output
from the electric motor, carrying the baggage, and being forced to
divert a significant proportion of IC engines output to maintaining
battery charge (which must never be allowed to fall too low since the
enitre operation of the car depends on having electric motor power to
blend with the IC engine output since this is how the planatary gear
setup achieves the CVT).

(for current production technology conventional and hybrids) to work out
which would be better averaged out over national traffic patterns? In other
words, if you were to replace the entire national car fleet overnight with
equivalent hybrids would net fuel consumption increase or decrease?

It is a good question. I would expect the answer is "increase" since in
the real world you don't get something for nothing.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

Now if the hydrogen were produced by solar/wind it would be good.

Good thinking me boy. But do you know how much energy it takes to
crack
it?

Electrolysis me boy.
water into hydrogen and oxygen.

That is the process. I said "do you know how much energy it takes to crack
it?"

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

Now if the hydrogen were produced by solar/wind it would be good.

Good thinking me boy. But do you know how much energy it takes to
crack
it?

Electrolysis me boy.
water into hydrogen and oxygen.

That is the process. I said "do you know how much energy it takes to crack
it?"


Not much.
9V DC will do it (you can try with a pp3 battery if you like).