I remember those clever Kiwis use Ripple Control, whereby the grid load is
smoothed by being able to have some flexibility in the time that off-peak
heating is on.
IIRC, the way they do it is that the consumer is guaranteed a certain amount
of heater time during the night, but the time it comes on can be changed
during sudden demand or generator fall-off, and those that use daytime
electricity for heating can have the heating circuit switched out for a
certain amount of time.

Seeing as more and more people seem to have radio teleswitches these days to
turn off-peak on and off, I was wondering (as the frost hardened outside)
why we don't have this system here?

Just as an aside, I just reminded myself of my friend Joe's company:
http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/
Take a look - I think it's quite a clever idea, I hope he makes something of
it.

In message , Jonathan
writes
I remember those clever Kiwis use Ripple Control, whereby the grid load is
smoothed by being able to have some flexibility in the time that off-peak
heating is on.
IIRC, the way they do it is that the consumer is guaranteed a certain amount
of heater time during the night, but the time it comes on can be changed
during sudden demand or generator fall-off, and those that use daytime
electricity for heating can have the heating circuit switched out for a
certain amount of time.

Seeing as more and more people seem to have radio teleswitches these days to
turn off-peak on and off, I was wondering (as the frost hardened outside)
why we don't have this system here?

Prolly because most people have gas or oil central heating

hth

--
geoff

Pretty much spot on. Having lived in NZ - Christchurch for the last 13
months, it would appear that all the Kiwi heating stems from two inputs
- electricity or coal/wood. Electricity prices in NZ have gone up a LOT
in the last 12 to 24 months due to the demand placed upon the
providers. In fact, given the unusally drier spring, most of the big
lakes the providers use to power their hydro systems are at critical
levels.

The providers offer a whole heap of different tarriffs for comparison.
Given most of the electricity costs are involved in heating hot water
for the family or indeed the house, then the kiwis need some cost
saving ability. The only issue with some of the tarriffs is you need to
install a new / dual metre and the associated wiring by a sparkie - not
cheap. Some tarriffs are geared to switch on your water tank at night
and off in the morning. Others use a standard day and night rate that
switches over at 9.00 pm and 7.00am. Look at www.meridean.co.nz to get
an idea.

Ged

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Jonathan
writes
I remember those clever Kiwis use Ripple Control, whereby the grid load is
smoothed by being able to have some flexibility in the time that off-peak
heating is on.
IIRC, the way they do it is that the consumer is guaranteed a certain
amount
of heater time during the night, but the time it comes on can be changed
during sudden demand or generator fall-off, and those that use daytime
electricity for heating can have the heating circuit switched out for a
certain amount of time.

Seeing as more and more people seem to have radio teleswitches these days
to
turn off-peak on and off, I was wondering (as the frost hardened outside)
why we don't have this system here?

Prolly because most people have gas or oil central heating

Besides which, the thing that really frightens electricity supply companies
is the advert break at the end of Coronation Street. When I was in the
industry, the CEGB used to check the story lines, to try to get an idea of
how many kettles were going to be switched on at the end of the episode.

Colin Bignell

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:51:32 -0000, "Jonathan"
wrote:

I remember those clever Kiwis use Ripple Control, whereby the grid load is
smoothed by being able to have some flexibility in the time that off-peak
heating is on.
IIRC, the way they do it is that the consumer is guaranteed a certain amount
of heater time during the night, but the time it comes on can be changed
during sudden demand or generator fall-off, and those that use daytime
electricity for heating can have the heating circuit switched out for a
certain amount of time.

Seeing as more and more people seem to have radio teleswitches these days to
turn off-peak on and off, I was wondering (as the frost hardened outside)
why we don't have this system here?

One reason is that under the current pricing structures post
privatisation there is more money to be made by the generators
actually supplying demand during those periods than restricting it.

A stationary electricity meter is not producing profit



--

In article ,
nightjar nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com wrote:
Besides which, the thing that really frightens electricity supply
companies is the advert break at the end of Coronation Street. When I
was in the industry, the CEGB used to check the story lines, to try to
get an idea of how many kettles were going to be switched on at the end
of the episode.

The audience for Corrie is probably 1/4 of the peak then in these days.

--
*Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 10:50:57 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The audience for Corrie is probably 1/4 of the peak then in these
days.

The street used to pull around 18 million regulary, now about 12
million. But all the other big audiance shows have dropped by similar
amounts, presumably because of the abundance of channels these days.

I'm usre the power generators still watch the TV schedules for
programme ends, ad breaks etc. Though it's not just the kettles and
lights, some is the upsurge in pumping for sewage and fresh water.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

[...]

Prolly because most people have gas or oil central heating

Besides which, the thing that really frightens electricity supply
companies is the advert break at the end of Coronation Street. When I
was in the industry, the CEGB used to check the story lines, to try
to get an idea of how many kettles were going to be switched on at
the end of the episode.

When I visited the James Bond-esq Dinorwig powerstation in N Wales they told
us the Radio Times is always available in the control room as they have to
be ready to open their, rather large, valves just in time for the surge in
demand associated with TV ad-breaks!

Dave

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Jonathan
writes
I remember those clever Kiwis use Ripple Control, whereby the grid load is
smoothed by being able to have some flexibility in the time that off-peak
heating is on.
IIRC, the way they do it is that the consumer is guaranteed a certain
amount
of heater time during the night, but the time it comes on can be changed
during sudden demand or generator fall-off, and those that use daytime
electricity for heating can have the heating circuit switched out for a
certain amount of time.

Seeing as more and more people seem to have radio teleswitches these days
to
turn off-peak on and off, I was wondering (as the frost hardened outside)
why we don't have this system here?

Prolly because most people have gas or oil central heating


Last UK white meter box I looked in had a remote operated (via supply cable
signal?) off-peak switching module which is controlled by the supply
company. Whats the problem? Sounds like this guy is trying to pump his mates
business without doing some basic homework

"John" wrote in message
...

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Jonathan
writes

Seeing as more and more people seem to have radio teleswitches these days
to
turn off-peak on and off, I was wondering (as the frost hardened outside)
why we don't have this system here?

Prolly because most people have gas or oil central heating


Last UK white meter box I looked in had a remote operated (via supply
cable signal?) off-peak switching module which is controlled by the supply
company.

If we're talking about the UK system, it's done by timecodes in Radio 4's
Long Wave signal.

Whats the problem?

With what?

Sounds like this guy

Which guy?

is trying to pump his mates

Huh?!? You're losing it/me!

business without doing some basic homework

Am I missing something you haven't quoted here?!? I am TOTALLY lost!
Explain!
How did we get from ripple control to homework??

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Jonathan
writes

Seeing as more and more people seem to have radio teleswitches these days
to
turn off-peak on and off, I was wondering (as the frost hardened outside)
why we don't have this system here?

Prolly because most people have gas or oil central heating

Seems as good a reason as any! And Ged appears to agree, adding:

wrote in message
ups.com...
Pretty much spot on. Having lived in NZ - Christchurch for the last 13
months, it would appear that all the Kiwi heating stems from two inputs
- electricity or coal/wood.

Dontcha just love the Christchurch smog as all those wood stoves get busy in
the winter?? Would be my second city of choice to live in; my only problem
being that if I got lost, I couldn't ask for directions as I don't speak
Chinese...

Electricity prices in NZ have gone up a LOT
in the last 12 to 24 months due to the demand placed upon the
providers. In fact, given the unusally drier spring, most of the big
lakes the providers use to power their hydro systems are at critical
levels.

Yes, not just that, but they also seem to have learnt nothing from anywhere
else in the world, and seem hell-bent on selling their assets to American
companies, who asset strip them, run them to the ground, and put prices up.

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...
"John" wrote in message
...

"raden" wrote in message

SNIP


Am I missing something you haven't quoted here?!? I am TOTALLY lost!
Explain!
How did we get from ripple control to homework??

Have you read the whole thread?

"John" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...
"John" wrote in message
...

"raden" wrote in message

SNIP


Am I missing something you haven't quoted here?!? I am TOTALLY lost!
Explain!
How did we get from ripple control to homework??

Have you read the whole thread?

I *STARTED* the thread! I only see 12 posts as of 17/11/05; 17:35, going
through Oil & Gas vs electricity, and why the Kiwis use ripple control, and
not us in the UK.
As my news server is clearly missing something, can you point me to a google
cache of the post you were referring to, or at least quote so I have a frame
of reference!
Ta

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:02:21 -0000 someone who may be "Dave"
wrote this:-

When I visited the James Bond-esq Dinorwig powerstation in N Wales they told
us the Radio Times is always available in the control room as they have to
be ready to open their, rather large, valves just in time for the surge in
demand associated with TV ad-breaks!

The rather large valves tend to be opened by frequency measuring
devices, which detect a fall in frequency and react before humans
would. These were frequency measuring relays, but may now be some
sort of computerised gadget.

However, in order to be able to react in a few seconds unit(s) must
be in immediate response mode. In this mode they are running
synchronised with the external supply, but no water is flowing
through them. They are thus taking a little electricity from the
external system. Placing unit(s) in this mode is undoubtedly a human
controlled operation, for which a Radio Times may be useful (though
in the privatised "system" it may be more useful in other places).

If units are stationary then it takes the agonisingly long time of
90 seconds to supply power, though this is still faster than
anything else of comparable output.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:41:06 -0000, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com wrote:


Besides which, the thing that really frightens electricity supply companies
is the advert break at the end of Coronation Street. When I was in the
industry, the CEGB used to check the story lines, to try to get an idea of
how many kettles were going to be switched on at the end of the episode.

In 1987, I went on a school visit to a small power station.

The power station was fitted with two Rolls Royce "aircraft type"
engines. The engines could be brought on line by remote control from a
national grid control centre. The engines could be switched on and
shut down in a matter of minutes. The power station was unmanned
outside of 9.00am to 5.00pm.

The power station manager said that at the time the power station
would only come into operation for a few minutes each week - usually
during the ad break in Coronation Street.

Graham

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:55:15 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


I'm usre the power generators still watch the TV schedules for
programme ends, ad breaks etc. Though it's not just the kettles and
lights, some is the upsurge in pumping for sewage and fresh water.

While we are on the subject, what ever happened to Economy 7
electricity?

It is very rare that it is plugged these days.

Graham

In article ,
"nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com writes:

Besides which, the thing that really frightens electricity supply companies
is the advert break at the end of Coronation Street. When I was in the

The biggest surge in recent years was at the end of Diana's
funeral, which was a number of hours long on multiple channels
with no commercial breaks, and pretty much the whole country
watching (except those who lined the route in person).

industry, the CEGB used to check the story lines, to try to get an idea of
how many kettles were going to be switched on at the end of the episode.

Nowadays, sewage and water pumping stations are the largest
cause of the surge. The end of Diana's funeral was probably
the largest mass visit to the toilet ever experienced in the
country...

--
Andrew Gabriel

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:41:06 -0000, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com wrote:


Besides which, the thing that really frightens electricity supply
companies
is the advert break at the end of Coronation Street. When I was in the
industry, the CEGB used to check the story lines, to try to get an idea of
how many kettles were going to be switched on at the end of the episode.

Indeed - in fact, "TV Pickups" are still very much a part of the forecasters
trade;
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/activ...mn_pickup.html

In 1987, I went on a school visit to a small power station.

The power station was fitted with two Rolls Royce "aircraft type"
engines. The engines could be brought on line by remote control from a
national grid control centre. The engines could be switched on and
shut down in a matter of minutes. The power station was unmanned
outside of 9.00am to 5.00pm.

These are gas turbines, and cost a LOT more to buy from, but can, as you
say, kick in quickly.

Because of the fines levied for not keeping within the frequency limits are
quite high, having "spot generation", costly though it is when needed, is
vital.
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/activ...n_quality.html

Other interesting things:

Current energy prices:
http://www.bmreports.com/bwx_reporting.htm

See the current frequency of the grid:
http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:33:09 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:56:56 GMT, wrote:

The power station was fitted with two Rolls Royce "aircraft type"
engines.

Go visit one again:
http://www.internalfire.com/modules....owpage&pid=136

And that's a _Bristol_Siddeley_ Proteus, not a Rolls-Royce
Some people in this town still care!

Hmm you don't live in Derby then? :-)

Your link shows the Proteus being rated at 3.2MVA which is a bit
confusing as I seem to recall the Proteus being used on the 17MW sets
commonly used on the late 60's 500MW coal and oil fired sites. Maybe
they stacked them (x4) but I can't recall that arrangement.

Other sites used Avon's (in pairs to produce 28MW) single Olympus
(35MW) and dual Olympus (70MW)


--

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:33:09 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

| On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:56:56 GMT, wrote:
|
| The power station was fitted with two Rolls Royce "aircraft type"
| engines.
|
| Go visit one again:
| http://www.internalfire.com/modules....owpage&pid=136
|
| And that's a _Bristol_Siddeley_ Proteus, not a Rolls-Royce
| Some people in this town still care!

Dredging my memory, I seem to remember that the Roles Royce Dart was use in
small power stations.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
Sick and tired of Junk Snail Mail?
Register with http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/mpsr/
IME it works :-)

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com writes:

Besides which, the thing that really frightens electricity supply
companies
is the advert break at the end of Coronation Street. When I was in the

The biggest surge in recent years was at the end of Diana's
funeral, which was a number of hours long on multiple channels
with no commercial breaks, and pretty much the whole country
watching (except those who lined the route in person).

Official estimates of UK viewing figures put the number at 40 million, which
broke the record of 39 million for her wedding to Charles.

Colin Bignell

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:28:02 -0000, "nightjar".uk.com wrote:

Official estimates of UK viewing figures put the number at 40
million,

And I wasn't one of them, enoying a *very* quiet drive along the M4 at
the time. Quite a a few people pulled over and stopped at one point,
presumably a silence. The only silence that I really believe in is at
1100 on the 11/11th.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:33:09 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:56:56 GMT, wrote:

The power station was fitted with two Rolls Royce "aircraft type"
engines.

And that's a _Bristol_Siddeley_ Proteus, not a Rolls-Royce
Some people in this town still care!

I am just quoting what the power station manager said to us.

He said they were Rolls Royce engines.

Graham

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:34:52 GMT, wrote:

| On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:33:09 +0000, Andy Dingley
| wrote:
|
| On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:56:56 GMT, wrote:
|
| The power station was fitted with two Rolls Royce "aircraft type"
| engines.
|
| And that's a _Bristol_Siddeley_ Proteus, not a Rolls-Royce
| Some people in this town still care!
|
| I am just quoting what the power station manager said to us.
|
| He said they were Rolls Royce engines.

Some were Rolls Royce engines IIRC Darts.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
Sick and tired of Junk Snail Mail?
Register with http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/mpsr/
IME it works :-)

they also used to use rolls royce oylmpus gas turbines as fitted to concorde
they used to use four of these at fawley power station , southampton for
peak demand sadly they have all be canabalised now for spares
"Dave Fawthrop" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:34:52 GMT, wrote:

| On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:33:09 +0000, Andy Dingley
| wrote:
|
| On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:56:56 GMT, wrote:
|
| The power station was fitted with two Rolls Royce "aircraft type"
| engines.
|
| And that's a _Bristol_Siddeley_ Proteus, not a Rolls-Royce
| Some people in this town still care!
|
| I am just quoting what the power station manager said to us.
|
| He said they were Rolls Royce engines.

Some were Rolls Royce engines IIRC Darts.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
Sick and tired of Junk Snail Mail?
Register with http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/mpsr/
IME it works :-)

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:47:56 +0000 (UTC), "hammy1967"
wrote:

they also used to use rolls royce oylmpus gas turbines

That's another Bristol Siddeley design.

British jet engines (and some piston engines) had maker-specific names.
Rolls-Royce used rivers (Avon, Conway, Dart, Trent, Welland) Bristol
used Greek mythology (Proteus, Olympus, Orpheus) or Norse mythology for
ramjets (Thor). Bristol had used a similar series of names for their
piston engines, Rolls-Royce had used birds (Merlin, Kestrel), some
rivers (Exe) and battles (Crecy) for two-strokes.

Other makers had their own series tool De Havilland were spooky (Ghost,
Goblin) and Armstrong Siddeley had precious stones (Beryl, Sapphire) as
jets and noisy names with an S for rockets (Stentor, Screamer, Sprite)

Although Rolls-Royce ended up owning everything that wasn't snarfed up
by Popeye or Messybeast, you can still trace the development of the
post-war UK engine industry through these names. Also a few odd bits of
technology, like A-S vapourising burner designs and Bristol's bizarre
notions of topology.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Pretty much spot on. Having lived in NZ - Christchurch for the last 13
months, it would appear that all the Kiwi heating stems from two inputs
- electricity or coal/wood.

They have natural gas. Rinnai sell well in NZ

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com writes:

Besides which, the thing that really frightens electricity supply
companies
is the advert break at the end of Coronation Street. When I was in the

The biggest surge in recent years was at the end of Diana's
funeral, which was a number of hours long on multiple channels
with no commercial breaks, and pretty much the whole country
watching (except those who lined the route in person).

Which was me. I had to have a look at the dead princess. The herse passed
within about 3 foot of me. I took a piccie.

industry, the CEGB used to check the story lines, to try to get an idea
of
how many kettles were going to be switched on at the end of the episode.

Nowadays, sewage and water pumping stations are the largest
cause of the surge. The end of Diana's funeral was probably
the largest mass visit to the toilet ever experienced in the
country...

--
Andrew Gabriel

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com writes:

Besides which, the thing that really frightens electricity supply
companies
is the advert break at the end of Coronation Street. When I was in the

The biggest surge in recent years was at the end of Diana's
funeral, which was a number of hours long on multiple channels
with no commercial breaks, and pretty much the whole country
watching (except those who lined the route in person).

Official estimates of UK viewing figures put the number at 40 million,
which
broke the record of 39 million for her wedding to Charles.

I was not one of them at wedding, as I went to a no wedding pub that day.
If you mentioned the wedding they threw you out. Great place.

In message ,
hammy1967 writes
they also used to use rolls royce oylmpus gas turbines as fitted to concorde
they used to use four of these at fawley power station , southampton for
peak demand sadly they have all be canabalised now for spares
All (well most of) the UK coal and oil power stations built in the late
1960's and early '70's were fitted with black start gas turbines and as
far as I can recall were either exclusively RR Avon or RR Olympus. It
takes between 20 and 25 MW just to start a coal unit (big fan motors and
electric pumps) before any power comes out so generally the Olympus
engines went on the bigger sets like at Drax (660 MW against 500 MW at
say Didcot or Rugeley). Our plant at Rugeley has four Avons plus we
have some Olympus engines in South Australia to do a similar duty or
peak lopping or black start. There were also a few stand alone gas
turbine stations built by the CEGB, some like Lister Drive in Liverpool
and Ocker Hill in the Midlands have been closed and demolished but I
think there are still some about (Cowes on the Isle of Wight is the only
souce of electricity on the island should the cable to the mainland go
down).

Stations contract with National Grid to provide ancillary services like
black start, if grid won't contract then there is no economic sense in
keeping the facility.
--
Andrew Sinclair http://www.smellycat.org

Doctor Drivel wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...


Pretty much spot on. Having lived in NZ - Christchurch for the last 13
months, it would appear that all the Kiwi heating stems from two inputs
- electricity or coal/wood.


They have natural gas. Rinnai sell well in NZ


North Island only. Christchurch USED to have coal gas, but that was
ripped out more than 20 years ago. My grandmother had to learn to cook
all over again. It was her first electric cooker when they lost it.

The SI only has Propane cylinders, and last time I was there they were
pretty rare. (It has to be shipped in from the NI).

BTW Rinnai are NICE units. I used to have a Rinnai 24L demand heater
(Hot water). 24l/minute to 60deg C. Dual controls (Kitchen & Bathroom)
for selecting the temperature. Changable on the fly. Want a shower? Dial
42 & turn on the hot tap. (Beginning to wonder why I left. Oh yes, the
weather

Oh. Our heating was also a Rinnai. But radiators I've never seen outside
of a school in NZ... And that was oil fired to heat the water...


H