Hi there,

In work, we've got a small room of about 1.75m x 1.5cm, and about 3m high.
We want to put some of our servers in there (they will just about fit!), but
are worried about it getting too hot in there.

We definitely need some sort of cooling system, but connecting a full air
conditioning system will not only be expensive, but having an external air
vent is going to be very tricky (and even more expense!) due to the location
of this room within the building.

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent? I know that a fan on
its own would only recirculate the warm air, but was hoping there would be a
system for our needs? I saw some air coolers in the argos that had a 12
litre water tank, but wasn't sure if these also required an external air
vent to work?

Thanks for any advice.

Ste

ste was thinking very hard :

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent? I know that a fan on
its own would only recirculate the warm air, but was hoping there would be a
system for our needs? I saw some air coolers in the argos that had a 12
litre water tank, but wasn't sure if these also required an external air vent
to work?

They work by blowing a flow of air at a moistened surface. The moisture
draws heat from the air as part of that process of evaporation. They
air comes out a few degrees cooler, but with very high humidity. The
humid air will then condense on cooler surfaces, unless it is vented
out doors.

The humidity might not be a problem with good ventilation, but it would
be fairly useless in an enclosed poorly ventilated room with servers
in.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

ste wrote:

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent?

No.


I know that a fan on
its own would only recirculate the warm air, but was hoping there would be a
system for our needs?

No.


I saw some air coolers in the argos that had a 12
litre water tank, but wasn't sure if these also required an external air
vent to work?

That's just what you need in a server room...

This isn't a technology problem; it's a physics one. In order to cool
your room, you need to do something with the heat. You either dump it
outside, or use it to evaporate a liquid in the room. Dumping it outside
is the only option.

A good split unit aircon will cost about the same as a single server,
and take less time to set up than a single server takes to install and
configure from scratch.


--
Grunff

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:25:05 +0100, "ste" wrote:

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent?

No (unless they have a water circuit which is vented in turn).

It's a piece of classical thermodynamics that you can't make a "powered
heatsink". No matter what you put in the black box, or how much energy
you feed it, you can't make heat disappear, you can only move it to
somewhere else.

"ste" wrote in message
...
Hi there,

In work, we've got a small room of about 1.75m x 1.5cm, and about 3m high.
We want to put some of our servers in there (they will just about fit!),
but are worried about it getting too hot in there.

We definitely need some sort of cooling system, but connecting a full air
conditioning system will not only be expensive, but having an external air
vent is going to be very tricky (and even more expense!) due to the
location of this room within the building.

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent? I know that a fan
on its own would only recirculate the warm air, but was hoping there would
be a system for our needs? I saw some air coolers in the argos that had a
12 litre water tank, but wasn't sure if these also required an external
air vent to work?

Don't use an evaporative cooler where you have servers running. All that
water has to go somewhere and the humidity won't do the servers any good
whatsoever.

If you value the data find another room where you can set up a proper
controlled environment.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
ste was thinking very hard :

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent? I know that a fan
on its own would only recirculate the warm air, but was hoping there
would be a system for our needs? I saw some air coolers in the argos
that had a 12 litre water tank, but wasn't sure if these also required an
external air vent to work?

They work by blowing a flow of air at a moistened surface. The moisture
draws heat from the air as part of that process of evaporation. They air
comes out a few degrees cooler, but with very high humidity. The humid air
will then condense on cooler surfaces, unless it is vented out doors.

The humidity might not be a problem with good ventilation, but it would be
fairly useless in an enclosed poorly ventilated room with servers in.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org


Thanks for that Harry. You're right, the humidity would be a big no-no! I
think I'd rather it be hot than damp! :-) I'll have to find another
solution...

Ste

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
ste wrote:

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent?

No.


I know that a fan on its own would only recirculate the warm air, but was
hoping there would be a system for our needs?

No.


I saw some air coolers in the argos that had a 12 litre water tank, but
wasn't sure if these also required an external air vent to work?

That's just what you need in a server room...

This isn't a technology problem; it's a physics one. In order to cool your
room, you need to do something with the heat. You either dump it outside,
or use it to evaporate a liquid in the room. Dumping it outside is the
only option.

A good split unit aircon will cost about the same as a single server, and
take less time to set up than a single server takes to install and
configure from scratch.


--
Grunff

Thanks for that Grunff. I realise the money the air conditioning and
routing of pipes will cost, hence why I was trying to find cheaper options.
If we have to pay, then we have to pay; but it's worth asking if it could
save us a few grand!

Ste

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:25:05 +0100, "ste" wrote:

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent?

No (unless they have a water circuit which is vented in turn).

It's a piece of classical thermodynamics that you can't make a "powered
heatsink". No matter what you put in the black box, or how much energy
you feed it, you can't make heat disappear, you can only move it to
somewhere else.


Thanks for that Andy. Classical Thermodynamics? Damn, I think I was off
sick when they taught that one in school, hence why I'm posting here! :-)

I'm wondering if I could simply 'dump' the warm air into the adjacent room
(which is well ventillated) as opposed to an outside wall (which would
require metres and metres of pipes to get there)?

Ste

wrote in message ...
On 11 Oct,
"ste" wrote:

Hi there,

In work, we've got a small room of about 1.75m x 1.5cm, and about 3m
high.
^^
They must be /very/ narrow servers. How does anyone fit into the room.


--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

The servers are actually quite wide. They're not very long though at 1.5cm
each! :-)

....of course, that's 1.75m x 1.5m x 3m tall. Still not that much room
though, but just another to fit in a set of rack mounted servers and a ups
etc.

Ste

"shaun" wrote in message
...

"ste" wrote in message
...
Hi there,

In work, we've got a small room of about 1.75m x 1.5cm, and about 3m
high. We want to put some of our servers in there (they will just about
fit!), but are worried about it getting too hot in there.

We definitely need some sort of cooling system, but connecting a full air
conditioning system will not only be expensive, but having an external
air vent is going to be very tricky (and even more expense!) due to the
location of this room within the building.

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent? I know that a fan
on its own would only recirculate the warm air, but was hoping there
would be a system for our needs? I saw some air coolers in the argos
that had a 12 litre water tank, but wasn't sure if these also required an
external air vent to work?

Don't use an evaporative cooler where you have servers running. All that
water has to go somewhere and the humidity won't do the servers any good
whatsoever.

If you value the data find another room where you can set up a proper
controlled environment.


I agree, now that I have a slight understand to how it all works. I wasn't
sure previously, I thought the water tank might have been used to collect
humidity from the air, not to create it!

We value our data, and if we can keep this room cool for as cheaply as
possible (within effective reason), then we will be happy.

Ste

"ste" wrote in message
...

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:25:05 +0100, "ste" wrote:

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent?

No (unless they have a water circuit which is vented in turn).

It's a piece of classical thermodynamics that you can't make a "powered
heatsink". No matter what you put in the black box, or how much energy
you feed it, you can't make heat disappear, you can only move it to
somewhere else.


Thanks for that Andy. Classical Thermodynamics? Damn, I think I was off
sick when they taught that one in school, hence why I'm posting here! :-)

I'm wondering if I could simply 'dump' the warm air into the adjacent room
(which is well ventillated) as opposed to an outside wall (which would
require metres and metres of pipes to get there)?

Yes, you can dump the air into the adjacent room. Of course,
that room will warm up so in the end as you dump hot air
from the server room, warm air from the adjacent room will be coming back in
to take its place, but you will be dissipating the heat over a larger volume
than before, and that should certainly reduce the temperature in the server
room somewhat. It would not be easy to tell in advance what kind of a
temperature reduction you might achieve.

Andy.

"ste" wrote in message
...
....
We definitely need some sort of cooling system, but connecting a full air
conditioning system will not only be expensive, but having an external air
vent is going to be very tricky (and even more expense!) due to the
location of this room within the building.
....

You really only need an external air vent to allow for air changes and the
servers probably won't care if the air is cooled but not changed. That means
that you only need to find a way to route a few copper pipes between the
cooling unit in room and the heat exchanger outside.

Colin Bignell

"ste" wrote in message
...

"shaun" wrote in message
...

Don't use an evaporative cooler where you have servers running. All that
water has to go somewhere and the humidity won't do the servers any good
whatsoever.

If you value the data find another room where you can set up a proper
controlled environment.

I agree, now that I have a slight understand to how it all works. I
wasn't sure previously, I thought the water tank might have been used to
collect humidity from the air, not to create it!

We value our data, and if we can keep this room cool for as cheaply as
possible (within effective reason), then we will be happy.

If you have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swamp_cooler under the
"disadvantages" section you'll see what I mean.

Is there not a suspended ceiling in the building that could be rigged with
ducting? Unfortunately "cool" is never cheap - both from installation and
running costs...

ste wrote:

Thanks for that Grunff. I realise the money the air conditioning and
routing of pipes will cost, hence why I was trying to find cheaper options.
If we have to pay, then we have to pay; but it's worth asking if it could
save us a few grand!

I would guess you are looking at less than a grand unless you need to
run the connection between internal and external units a long way.

(You are talking about a 3" diameter bundle of insulated pipes here -
you can buy split units precharged and ready to go - you simply feed the
pipes through (typically they are 5 to 6m long) and connect up. Plug it
in and off you go. That should give you 3kW of cooling - so good for
half a dozen servers or more)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

I would guess you are looking at less than a grand unless you need to
run the connection between internal and external units a long way.

Yes, totally - up to a 10m run, you can get very nice units at about £800.


--
Grunff

"ste" wrote in message
...

We value our data, and if we can keep this room cool for as cheaply as
possible (within effective reason), then we will be happy.

If you value your data then fitting proper air management equipment isn't a
problem what ever the cost.
Don't forget fire protection and security while you are doing the job.

Maybe you could lease some servers off site in a proper facility?

Hi there,

Just a quick reply to everyone else who has replied (sorry for not replying
one-by-one) to say thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated.

Ste

ste wrote:

Hi there,

In work, we've got a small room of about 1.75m x 1.5cm, and about 3m high.
We want to put some of our servers in there (they will just about fit!), but
are worried about it getting too hot in there.

We definitely need some sort of cooling system, but connecting a full air
conditioning system will not only be expensive, but having an external air
vent is going to be very tricky (and even more expense!) due to the location
of this room within the building.

Are there any air coolers out there which can keep the temperature down
within an enclosed space without an external air vent?

You have to take the heat somewhere. Normally one uses a small aircon
system outsode the biulding and runs cold piping to essentially fan
assisted cold air blowers in the room.

This doesn't requure an air passage outside, but it does require cold
refrigerant - or water - pipes to be taken from the room to somwhere
that they can extrcate and dump the heat.

Its ideal for machinery that needs cooling but not ventilation.

Its not cheap.


I know that a fan on
its own would only recirculate the warm air, but was hoping there would be a
system for our needs? I saw some air coolers in the argos that had a 12
litre water tank, but wasn't sure if these also required an external air
vent to work?

Thanks for any advice.

Ste

ste wrote :
A good split unit aircon will cost about the same as a single server, and
take less time to set up than a single server takes to install and
configure from scratch.


-- Grunff

Thanks for that Grunff. I realise the money the air conditioning and routing
of pipes will cost, hence why I was trying to find cheaper options. If we
have to pay, then we have to pay; but it's worth asking if it could save us a
few grand!

You can buy self contained units, where all that is needed is a hole
through the wall for the hot air outlet pipe.

The traditional internal and external units are combined as one unit,
then the extracted heat is blown out of a small flexible air duct. The
duct can be fed out via a window or a hole drilled in a wall.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

"Harry Bloomfield" verbally sodomised
in :


You can buy self contained units, where all that is needed is a hole
through the wall for the hot air outlet pipe.

The traditional internal and external units are combined as one unit,
then the extracted heat is blown out of a small flexible air duct. The
duct can be fed out via a window or a hole drilled in a wall.


How do you make being a peeping tom so complicated and dull?

--
Phil Kyle™

http://philkyle2003.reachme.at/

"The truly racist person is one Helene Rudlin, who admits it."
- Neil Barker

"I wonder - is there perhaps some form of cosmetic surgery we can pay for,
so that Helene can actually become a coon ?"
- Neil Barker