Right, any one have a Hudson Reed thermostatic shower with body jets
running through a Diverter?

I'd be interested to hear what your exeperience has been with the body
jets particularly. I have tried everything to get a decent jet of water
out:

Changed the diverter
Changed the thermostatic cartitridge
removed the non return valves
re-piped in a H formation
re-piped in 22mm pipe to all jets reducing to 15mm
repiped feed to diverter in 22mm
checked for blockages
made sure I have full bore valves everywhere
cleaned the strainers on the pump

Nothing has fixed my performace issues. HR as stating that they will
send an engineer out to test the valve out but if the shower head
itself is producing an awesome shower surely it cant be the problem.
They also said that I would be charged if it wasn't a valve issue!!!

Am I expecting too much from my jets? I have a 3 bar pump and I'm told
this should be more than enough to produce an invigorating shower. 2
jets actualy stop working when the shower head is on full blast.

Any advice/help/experiences with HR showers appreciated.

Cheers

Richard

wrote:
Right, any one have a Hudson Reed thermostatic shower with body jets
running through a Diverter?

I'd be interested to hear what your exeperience has been with the body
jets particularly. I have tried everything to get a decent jet of water
out:

Changed the diverter
Changed the thermostatic cartitridge
removed the non return valves
re-piped in a H formation
re-piped in 22mm pipe to all jets reducing to 15mm
repiped feed to diverter in 22mm
checked for blockages
made sure I have full bore valves everywhere
cleaned the strainers on the pump

Nothing has fixed my performace issues. HR as stating that they will
send an engineer out to test the valve out but if the shower head
itself is producing an awesome shower surely it cant be the problem.
They also said that I would be charged if it wasn't a valve issue!!!

Am I expecting too much from my jets? I have a 3 bar pump and I'm told
this should be more than enough to produce an invigorating shower. 2
jets actualy stop working when the shower head is on full blast.

Any advice/help/experiences with HR showers appreciated.


I still reckon you haven't enough flow. What flow rate are you
achieving---litres/min from the shower head only? What does this drop to
when you activate the body jets as well?

Regards
Capitol

Capitol wrote:
wrote:
Right, any one have a Hudson Reed thermostatic shower with body jets
running through a Diverter?

I'd be interested to hear what your exeperience has been with the body
jets particularly. I have tried everything to get a decent jet of water
out:

Changed the diverter
Changed the thermostatic cartitridge
removed the non return valves
re-piped in a H formation
re-piped in 22mm pipe to all jets reducing to 15mm
repiped feed to diverter in 22mm
checked for blockages
made sure I have full bore valves everywhere
cleaned the strainers on the pump

Nothing has fixed my performace issues. HR as stating that they will
send an engineer out to test the valve out but if the shower head
itself is producing an awesome shower surely it cant be the problem.
They also said that I would be charged if it wasn't a valve issue!!!

Am I expecting too much from my jets? I have a 3 bar pump and I'm told
this should be more than enough to produce an invigorating shower. 2
jets actualy stop working when the shower head is on full blast.

Any advice/help/experiences with HR showers appreciated.


I still reckon you haven't enough flow.

Maybe but how can I increase it. My plumber mate is stumped too and he
also reckons its the flow rate.

What flow rate are you
achieving---litres/min from the shower head only?

From the shower head I get 22 litres a minute (just over) from the
shower head without the head/rose on it.

What does this drop to
when you activate the body jets as well?

Dont know, haven't tested this one yet, I will test and post back.

Thanks for your help

Cheers

Richard


Regards
Capitol

OK, I've escaped from picking plums, so back to plumbing! The 22l/m
flow rate corresponds to about a 3-5ft head on 22mm pipe. This tells us
the problem is on the inlet side of the pump, as the flow rate with 3bar
head would be up to 400l/m!!! It is a 22mm inlet size pump isn't it? A
15mm inlet can't cope. It seems as though you are looking for a flow
rate of around 30l/m, which with your head would require at least 28mm
piping into the hot water tank from the loft tank and separately fed
28mm piping from the loft tank into the cold side of the pump. The
problem is probably coming from the hot feed out of the tank being in
22mm with a few bends in the way. A 90 bend corresponds to about 2ft of
piping if in copper and about 5-8 ft if compression. What I would
suggest is that you double up on the Essex flange by adding a Surrey
flange and connecting the two together with 22mm, opening up to 28mm
where they combine keep the bends to a minimum, use street elbows if
possible and feed to the pump in 28mm as far as possible. This on paper
and with a bit of guesswork will give you about 40-50l/m into the pump
which hopefully will be sufficient. I would add however, that if you are
using water at this rate, the chance of a hot shower lasting more than
5-10 minutes is pretty unlikely, also the loft tank will empty, as the
inlet valve almost certainly can't deliver more than 10l/m.

Hope this helps

Regards
Capitol

On 25 Aug 2005 12:53:24 -0700, wrote:

Am I expecting too much from my jets? I have a 3 bar pump and I'm told
this should be more than enough to produce an invigorating shower. 2
jets actualy stop working when the shower head is on full blast.

Any advice/help/experiences with HR showers appreciated.

Hi,

Can you change the size of the jets themselves? Are they the rubber
easy clean ones?

22l/min is a lot more water than needed for a shower.

cheers,
Pete.

On 25 Aug 2005 12:53:24 -0700, wrote:

Nothing has fixed my performace issues. HR as stating that they will
send an engineer out to test the valve out but if the shower head
itself is producing an awesome shower surely it cant be the problem.
They also said that I would be charged if it wasn't a valve issue!!!

Looks like it needs 2 bar min and 3 bar ideally, can they tell you how
many lpm it will need at those pressures?

If so compare it to the 'flow curve' of the pump, and if it's way
beyond the pump's spec you're on a hiding to nothing. Either get a
bigger/another pump or reduce the amount of water the shower panel
needs.

If they can't tell you how much flow it needs then stick a pressure
gauge on the inlet to the panel, if it's above 2 bar then the ball is
in their court as it should work fine at their minimum recommended
pressure.

cheers,
Pete.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:19:01 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On 25 Aug 2005 12:53:24 -0700, wrote:

Am I expecting too much from my jets? I have a 3 bar pump and I'm told
this should be more than enough to produce an invigorating shower. 2
jets actualy stop working when the shower head is on full blast.

Any advice/help/experiences with HR showers appreciated.

Hi,

Can you change the size of the jets themselves? Are they the rubber
easy clean ones?

22l/min is a lot more water than needed for a shower.



That depends on what you like and the type of shower.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Capitol wrote:
OK, I've escaped from picking plums, so back to plumbing!

I'd rather be picking plums than installing radiators, or dicking
around getting soaked trying to measure flow rates from body jets!

The 22l/m
flow rate corresponds to about a 3-5ft head on 22mm pipe.
this tells us
the problem is on the inlet side of the pump, as the flow rate with 3bar
head would be up to 400l/m!!! It is a 22mm inlet size pump isn't it?

400l/m wow that is a lot. Yes it is a 22m inlet size pump.

A
15mm inlet can't cope. It seems as though you are looking for a flow
rate of around 30l/m, which with your head would require at least 28mm
piping into the hot water tank from the loft tank and separately fed
28mm piping from the loft tank into the cold side of the pump. The
problem is probably coming from the hot feed out of the tank being in
22mm with a few bends in the way. A 90 bend corresponds to about 2ft of
piping if in copper and about 5-8 ft if compression.

I am using 22mm push fit and there is a 90 degree elbow and then it
goes into the pump, likewise for the cold. Maybe I could shorten the
pipe run and make it fall more than it currently does, I was wondering
about the fall its more like a 90 degree angle than a curve

What I would
suggest is that you double up on the Essex flange by adding a Surrey
flange and connecting the two together with 22mm, opening up to 28mm
where they combine keep the bends to a minimum, use street elbows if
possible and feed to the pump in 28mm as far as possible.

Why would I not use 2 essex flanges, what is the difference? So I would
just use a 22mm to 28mm T?

Are you suggesting I pipe the cold feed in 28mm too? and if not why
not, not sure I understand why it would just be the hot feed causing
the problem?

This on paper
and with a bit of guesswork will give you about 40-50l/m into the pump
which hopefully will be sufficient. I would add however, that if you are
using water at this rate, the chance of a hot shower lasting more than
5-10 minutes is pretty unlikely, also the loft tank will empty, as the
inlet valve almost certainly can't deliver more than 10l/m.

The cold tank is a seperate one for the shower. I am a little worried
about the hot water supply as SWMBO takes forever in the shower or used
to

Maybe I should try shortening the hot water feed to the pump first and
then go the other route? how does that sound??

Thanks very much for your reply, I was kind of giving up hope........

Cheers

Richard




Hope this helps

Regards
Capitol

Pete C wrote:
On 25 Aug 2005 12:53:24 -0700, wrote:

Am I expecting too much from my jets? I have a 3 bar pump and I'm told
this should be more than enough to produce an invigorating shower. 2
jets actualy stop working when the shower head is on full blast.

Any advice/help/experiences with HR showers appreciated.

Hi,

Can you change the size of the jets themselves? Are they the rubber
easy clean ones?

22l/min is a lot more water than needed for a shower.

cheers,
Pete.

Hello Pete

Your brave answering another question from me

the jets are chrome but have rubber type nipples, you can remove one
end by unscrewing a cap and you can get to the insides. I stopped short
of pulling them apart though.

Cheers

Richard

Pete C wrote:
On 25 Aug 2005 12:53:24 -0700, wrote:

Nothing has fixed my performace issues. HR as stating that they will
send an engineer out to test the valve out but if the shower head
itself is producing an awesome shower surely it cant be the problem.
They also said that I would be charged if it wasn't a valve issue!!!

Looks like it needs 2 bar min and 3 bar ideally, can they tell you how
many lpm it will need at those pressures?

The tech support person said I should be seeing 22 l/minute through the
jets with a 3 bar pump and I am seeing about 15 l/m


If so compare it to the 'flow curve' of the pump, and if it's way
beyond the pump's spec you're on a hiding to nothing. Either get a
bigger/another pump or reduce the amount of water the shower panel
needs.

The pump guy at Stuart Turned said the pump will only produce 9 litres
a minute though, and he managed to totally confuse the hell out of me.
He also stated that a 4 bar pump would only produce the same, and that
finished me off...........errrr.

If they can't tell you how much flow it needs then stick a pressure
gauge on the inlet to the panel, if it's above 2 bar then the ball is
in their court as it should work fine at their minimum recommended
pressure.

Well their minimum spec is 1.5 bar.

Cheers

Richard


cheers,
Pete.

wrote:
Capitol wrote:

OK, I've escaped from picking plums, so back to plumbing!


I'd rather be picking plums than installing radiators, or dicking
around getting soaked trying to measure flow rates from body jets!

The 22l/m

flow rate corresponds to about a 3-5ft head on 22mm pipe.

this tells us

the problem is on the inlet side of the pump, as the flow rate with 3bar
head would be up to 400l/m!!! It is a 22mm inlet size pump isn't it?


400l/m wow that is a lot. Yes it is a 22m inlet size pump.

A

15mm inlet can't cope. It seems as though you are looking for a flow
rate of around 30l/m, which with your head would require at least 28mm
piping into the hot water tank from the loft tank and separately fed
28mm piping from the loft tank into the cold side of the pump. The
problem is probably coming from the hot feed out of the tank being in
22mm with a few bends in the way. A 90 bend corresponds to about 2ft of
piping if in copper and about 5-8 ft if compression.


I am using 22mm push fit and there is a 90 degree elbow and then it
goes into the pump, likewise for the cold. Maybe I could shorten the
pipe run and make it fall more than it currently does, I was wondering
about the fall its more like a 90 degree angle than a curve

If you are using push fit, then the input side flow rates will be much
worse than I have indicated, as the inserts will reduce the internal
pipe diameter to about 18mm, this will reduce the flow rates by about
60%! (rough numbers). On the info provided, as I see it you need to
forget about push fit on the i/p side and go to copper 28mm to give
yourself a chance.

What I would

suggest is that you double up on the Essex flange by adding a Surrey
flange and connecting the two together with 22mm, opening up to 28mm
where they combine keep the bends to a minimum, use street elbows if
possible and feed to the pump in 28mm as far as possible.


Why would I not use 2 essex flanges, what is the difference? So I would
just use a 22mm to 28mm T?

Yes, you can do that, but you are pulling water out of the tank at the
same level and I suspect that you would do better to use a Surrey
flange to separate the flow slightly, also, you will not need to punch
another hole in the tank. I'm convinced that you need to go to 28mm
copper and not pushfit on the i/p sides of the pump. The i/p to the hot
tank needs to be 28mm IMO.

Are you suggesting I pipe the cold feed in 28mm too? and if not why
not, not sure I understand why it would just be the hot feed causing
the problem?

Yes, sorry if I was not clear, 28mm copper is required for both hot
and cold feeds through to the pump. Push fit 22mm is much closer to 18mm
than 22mm and will not give the flow rates with a gravity feed. The
relative head loss for 18/22mm is in the region of 10/3 for 10l/m flow
rates /100 ft of piping.

This on paper

and with a bit of guesswork will give you about 40-50l/m into the pump
which hopefully will be sufficient. I would add however, that if you are
using water at this rate, the chance of a hot shower lasting more than
5-10 minutes is pretty unlikely, also the loft tank will empty, as the
inlet valve almost certainly can't deliver more than 10l/m.


The cold tank is a seperate one for the shower. I am a little worried
about the hot water supply as SWMBO takes forever in the shower or used
to

Maybe she'll get used to cold showers!! Does this mean that you have
two loft tanks, one for hot and one for cold? If so , what are their
capacities?

Maybe I should try shortening the hot water feed to the pump first and
then go the other route? how does that sound??


I'd grasp the nettle and replumb almost all of the input feed system in
28mm copper for both hot and cold supplies, with a Surrey flange and an
Essex flange using 22mm then 28mm copper until just before the pump. It
must be easier than messing about with lots of plastic pushfit which can
never work IMO.
Just as a check, I ran a flow rate of 15l/m from an approx 10mm dia
outlet with a system fed as I have described. This corresponds to a head
of about 10ft at the outlet point, with an input head of 100ft!
For your 22mm outlet, this would become 60l/m if the scaling is
applicable, hence my estimate of 40-50l/m

Regards
Capitol

Capitol wrote:
wrote:
Capitol wrote:

OK, I've escaped from picking plums, so back to plumbing!


I'd rather be picking plums than installing radiators, or dicking
around getting soaked trying to measure flow rates from body jets!

The 22l/m

flow rate corresponds to about a 3-5ft head on 22mm pipe.

this tells us

the problem is on the inlet side of the pump, as the flow rate with 3bar
head would be up to 400l/m!!! It is a 22mm inlet size pump isn't it?


400l/m wow that is a lot. Yes it is a 22m inlet size pump.

A

15mm inlet can't cope. It seems as though you are looking for a flow
rate of around 30l/m, which with your head would require at least 28mm
piping into the hot water tank from the loft tank and separately fed
28mm piping from the loft tank into the cold side of the pump. The
problem is probably coming from the hot feed out of the tank being in
22mm with a few bends in the way. A 90 bend corresponds to about 2ft of
piping if in copper and about 5-8 ft if compression.


I am using 22mm push fit and there is a 90 degree elbow and then it
goes into the pump, likewise for the cold. Maybe I could shorten the
pipe run and make it fall more than it currently does, I was wondering
about the fall its more like a 90 degree angle than a curve

If you are using push fit, then the input side flow rates will be much
worse than I have indicated, as the inserts will reduce the internal
pipe diameter to about 18mm, this will reduce the flow rates by about
60%! (rough numbers). On the info provided, as I see it you need to
forget about push fit on the i/p side and go to copper 28mm to give
yourself a chance.

I did wonder about those inserts! I will re-pipe in copper. I am still
reluctant though to install another flange and go to 28mm, I guess I
can always revert back to old configuration if I use up too much water
though.


What I would

suggest is that you double up on the Essex flange by adding a Surrey
flange and connecting the two together with 22mm, opening up to 28mm
where they combine keep the bends to a minimum, use street elbows if
possible and feed to the pump in 28mm as far as possible.


Why would I not use 2 essex flanges, what is the difference? So I would
just use a 22mm to 28mm T?

Yes, you can do that, but you are pulling water out of the tank at the
same level and I suspect that you would do better to use a Surrey
flange to separate the flow slightly, also, you will not need to punch
another hole in the tank. I'm convinced that you need to go to 28mm
copper and not pushfit on the i/p sides of the pump. The i/p to the hot
tank needs to be 28mm IMO.

Ah gotcha, the susex flange installs into the top of the cyclinder as
opposed to at the side. I definately wouldn't want to punch another
hole in the tank if I was going to revert back to my old configuration.


Are you suggesting I pipe the cold feed in 28mm too? and if not why
not, not sure I understand why it would just be the hot feed causing
the problem?

Yes, sorry if I was not clear, 28mm copper is required for both hot
and cold feeds through to the pump. Push fit 22mm is much closer to 18mm
than 22mm and will not give the flow rates with a gravity feed. The
relative head loss for 18/22mm is in the region of 10/3 for 10l/m flow
rates /100 ft of piping.

This on paper

and with a bit of guesswork will give you about 40-50l/m into the pump
which hopefully will be sufficient. I would add however, that if you are
using water at this rate, the chance of a hot shower lasting more than
5-10 minutes is pretty unlikely, also the loft tank will empty, as the
inlet valve almost certainly can't deliver more than 10l/m.


The cold tank is a seperate one for the shower. I am a little worried
about the hot water supply as SWMBO takes forever in the shower or used
to

Maybe she'll get used to cold showers!!

Maybe she wont have a choice

Does this mean that you have
two loft tanks, one for hot and one for cold? If so , what are their
capacities?

I have a seperate 25 Gallon cold water tank for the shower, this was
used to feed an old power shower prior to our occupancy and just a hot
water cyclinder which is a standard size as far as I can tell. Looks
like all the others I've seen in the past.


Maybe I should try shortening the hot water feed to the pump first and
then go the other route? how does that sound??


I'd grasp the nettle and replumb almost all of the input feed system in
28mm copper for both hot and cold supplies, with a Surrey flange and an
Essex flange using 22mm then 28mm copper until just before the pump. It
must be easier than messing about with lots of plastic pushfit which can
never work IMO.

OK I'm going to take your advice, but I'm going to try 22mm copper
first and then if no joy make the move to 28mm and an additional
flange.

Just as a check, I ran a flow rate of 15l/m from an approx 10mm dia
outlet with a system fed as I have described. This corresponds to a head
of about 10ft at the outlet point, with an input head of 100ft!
For your 22mm outlet, this would become 60l/m if the scaling is
applicable, hence my estimate of 40-50l/m

Brilliant, thanks so much again, another job on the list for today!

Cheers

Richard


Regards
Capitol

On 28 Aug 2005 01:22:24 -0700, wrote:



I have a seperate 25 Gallon cold water tank for the shower, this was
used to feed an old power shower prior to our occupancy and just a hot
water cyclinder which is a standard size as far as I can tell. Looks
like all the others I've seen in the past.


Richard, I haven't looked through the entire thread here, but are you
saying that this is a separate tank just for the cold of the shower or
does it provide the supply to the HW cylinder as well?

If so, this does have the potential of being dangerous if the cold
water should run out before the hot (e.g. if you are using water
faster than it is refilling or the mains fails.

Normally, with a single tank this is prevented by fixing the tank
connectors at different heights on the tank such that the feed to the
HW cylinder stops before the cold to the shower.

If the tanks are totally separate, then you can't guarantee this. As
a minimum, it would be a good idea to see what the shower valve does
(some cut out the hot supply if the cold fails).

If you can do it, a better solution could be to connect the two tanks
together (assuming that the levels and sizes are the same) using a
length of 28mm pipe between the two at low level. If this is done,
then it's best to have the float valve in one and the outlets from the
other so that you guarantee that water doesn't stagnate in the second
tank. However, if you have outlets from both in regular use, it
shouldn't matter. I did this in a former house which had a
restricted height space where the tanks could go and therefore fitted
two (one behind the other) to achieve the capacity.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:
On 28 Aug 2005 01:22:24 -0700, wrote:



I have a seperate 25 Gallon cold water tank for the shower, this was
used to feed an old power shower prior to our occupancy and just a hot
water cyclinder which is a standard size as far as I can tell. Looks
like all the others I've seen in the past.


Richard, I haven't looked through the entire thread here, but are you
saying that this is a separate tank just for the cold of the shower or
does it provide the supply to the HW cylinder as well?

Sorry I was not clear, I have 2 cold water tanks, one feeding the
cyclinder and the other is on its own completgely seperate feeding the
shower only.


If so, this does have the potential of being dangerous if the cold
water should run out before the hot (e.g. if you are using water
faster than it is refilling or the mains fails.

The shower will shut off if this happens, according to their blurb.
Danger form scalding you mean?


Normally, with a single tank this is prevented by fixing the tank
connectors at different heights on the tank such that the feed to the
HW cylinder stops before the cold to the shower.

If the tanks are totally separate, then you can't guarantee this. As
a minimum, it would be a good idea to see what the shower valve does
(some cut out the hot supply if the cold fails).

There you go, this is what they say happens


If you can do it, a better solution could be to connect the two tanks
together (assuming that the levels and sizes are the same) using a
length of 28mm pipe between the two at low level. If this is done,
then it's best to have the float valve in one and the outlets from the
other so that you guarantee that water doesn't stagnate in the second
tank. However, if you have outlets from both in regular use, it
shouldn't matter. I did this in a former house which had a
restricted height space where the tanks could go and therefore fitted
two (one behind the other) to achieve the capacity.

The two tanks are actually at quite different levels. I will look at
doing this once I have my flow problems sorted out.

Thanks Andy

Cheers

Richard



--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Capitol wrote:
wrote:
Capitol wrote:

OK, I've escaped from picking plums, so back to plumbing!


I'd rather be picking plums than installing radiators, or dicking
around getting soaked trying to measure flow rates from body jets!

The 22l/m

flow rate corresponds to about a 3-5ft head on 22mm pipe.

this tells us

the problem is on the inlet side of the pump, as the flow rate with 3bar
head would be up to 400l/m!!! It is a 22mm inlet size pump isn't it?


400l/m wow that is a lot. Yes it is a 22m inlet size pump.

A

15mm inlet can't cope. It seems as though you are looking for a flow
rate of around 30l/m, which with your head would require at least 28mm
piping into the hot water tank from the loft tank and separately fed
28mm piping from the loft tank into the cold side of the pump. The
problem is probably coming from the hot feed out of the tank being in
22mm with a few bends in the way. A 90 bend corresponds to about 2ft of
piping if in copper and about 5-8 ft if compression.


I am using 22mm push fit and there is a 90 degree elbow and then it
goes into the pump, likewise for the cold. Maybe I could shorten the
pipe run and make it fall more than it currently does, I was wondering
about the fall its more like a 90 degree angle than a curve

If you are using push fit, then the input side flow rates will be much
worse than I have indicated, as the inserts will reduce the internal
pipe diameter to about 18mm, this will reduce the flow rates by about
60%! (rough numbers). On the info provided, as I see it you need to
forget about push fit on the i/p side and go to copper 28mm to give
yourself a chance.

What I would

suggest is that you double up on the Essex flange by adding a Surrey
flange and connecting the two together with 22mm, opening up to 28mm
where they combine keep the bends to a minimum, use street elbows if
possible and feed to the pump in 28mm as far as possible.


Why would I not use 2 essex flanges, what is the difference? So I would
just use a 22mm to 28mm T?

Yes, you can do that, but you are pulling water out of the tank at the
same level and I suspect that you would do better to use a Surrey
flange to separate the flow slightly, also, you will not need to punch
another hole in the tank. I'm convinced that you need to go to 28mm
copper and not pushfit on the i/p sides of the pump. The i/p to the hot
tank needs to be 28mm IMO.

Are you suggesting I pipe the cold feed in 28mm too? and if not why
not, not sure I understand why it would just be the hot feed causing
the problem?

Yes, sorry if I was not clear, 28mm copper is required for both hot
and cold feeds through to the pump. Push fit 22mm is much closer to 18mm
than 22mm and will not give the flow rates with a gravity feed. The
relative head loss for 18/22mm is in the region of 10/3 for 10l/m flow
rates /100 ft of piping.

This on paper

and with a bit of guesswork will give you about 40-50l/m into the pump
which hopefully will be sufficient. I would add however, that if you are
using water at this rate, the chance of a hot shower lasting more than
5-10 minutes is pretty unlikely, also the loft tank will empty, as the
inlet valve almost certainly can't deliver more than 10l/m.


The cold tank is a seperate one for the shower. I am a little worried
about the hot water supply as SWMBO takes forever in the shower or used
to

Maybe she'll get used to cold showers!! Does this mean that you have
two loft tanks, one for hot and one for cold? If so , what are their
capacities?

Maybe I should try shortening the hot water feed to the pump first and
then go the other route? how does that sound??


I'd grasp the nettle and replumb almost all of the input feed system in
28mm copper for both hot and cold supplies, with a Surrey flange and an
Essex flange using 22mm then 28mm copper until just before the pump. It
must be easier than messing about with lots of plastic pushfit which can
never work IMO.
Just as a check, I ran a flow rate of 15l/m from an approx 10mm dia
outlet with a system fed as I have described. This corresponds to a head
of about 10ft at the outlet point, with an input head of 100ft!
For your 22mm outlet, this would become 60l/m if the scaling is
applicable, hence my estimate of 40-50l/m

Regards
Capitol

Just had a thought on looking at the isolating valves at B&Q, these
seem to restrict the flow somwhat and I have them on both inlet and
outlet pipes running from/to the pump. Could this be my problem?

Cheers

Richard

wrote:
Just had a thought on looking at the isolating valves at B&Q, these
seem to restrict the flow somwhat and I have them on both inlet and
outlet pipes running from/to the pump. Could this be my problem?

I don't know, but I normally use Screwfix full bore valves ie 17293 or
equivalent from Toolstation to obtain maximum possible flow from a
gravity fed head. If your loft tank is only 25gallon, then the shower
time at say 2g/m can only be around 10 minutes max, maybe this is
another reason why the pump flow valves are not operating correctly.

regards
Capitol

On 28 Aug 2005 03:50:47 -0700, wrote:



Sorry I was not clear, I have 2 cold water tanks, one feeding the
cyclinder and the other is on its own completgely seperate feeding the
shower only.


If so, this does have the potential of being dangerous if the cold
water should run out before the hot (e.g. if you are using water
faster than it is refilling or the mains fails.

The shower will shut off if this happens, according to their blurb.
Danger form scalding you mean?

Exactly.




Normally, with a single tank this is prevented by fixing the tank
connectors at different heights on the tank such that the feed to the
HW cylinder stops before the cold to the shower.

If the tanks are totally separate, then you can't guarantee this. As
a minimum, it would be a good idea to see what the shower valve does
(some cut out the hot supply if the cold fails).

There you go, this is what they say happens


OK, then I would definitely test it soon, and probably make a regular
thing of it - perhaps every three months.



If you can do it, a better solution could be to connect the two tanks
together (assuming that the levels and sizes are the same) using a
length of 28mm pipe between the two at low level. If this is done,
then it's best to have the float valve in one and the outlets from the
other so that you guarantee that water doesn't stagnate in the second
tank. However, if you have outlets from both in regular use, it
shouldn't matter. I did this in a former house which had a
restricted height space where the tanks could go and therefore fitted
two (one behind the other) to achieve the capacity.

The two tanks are actually at quite different levels. I will look at
doing this once I have my flow problems sorted out.

Obviously you would have to bring them to the same level :-)

Also, do make sure that you keep an overflow for each tank




Thanks Andy

Cheers

Richard


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Nah, didn't do a lot although it did improve it slightly. The mains
pressure is really good and this doesn't appear to be a problem. Just
watched the cold tank whislt running the shower. Even SWMBI would of
finshed by then.......
Looks like 28mm copper then...............

Cheers

Richard

On 27 Aug 2005 14:42:19 -0700, wrote:


Pete C wrote:
On 25 Aug 2005 12:53:24 -0700, wrote:

Nothing has fixed my performace issues. HR as stating that they will
send an engineer out to test the valve out but if the shower head
itself is producing an awesome shower surely it cant be the problem.
They also said that I would be charged if it wasn't a valve issue!!!

Looks like it needs 2 bar min and 3 bar ideally, can they tell you how
many lpm it will need at those pressures?

The tech support person said I should be seeing 22 l/minute through the
jets with a 3 bar pump and I am seeing about 15 l/m

If that's through the jets alone and you're trying to run the shower
head as well, it's very likely the pressure from the pump will be too
low at the flow rate needed.


If so compare it to the 'flow curve' of the pump, and if it's way
beyond the pump's spec you're on a hiding to nothing. Either get a
bigger/another pump or reduce the amount of water the shower panel
needs.

The pump guy at Stuart Turned said the pump will only produce 9 litres
a minute though, and he managed to totally confuse the hell out of me.
He also stated that a 4 bar pump would only produce the same, and that
finished me off...........errrr.

He's right, the pump spec is for a given pressure and flow. So a 3 bar
pump will give 3 bar pressure at 9 lpm and a 4 bar pump will give 4
bar pressure also at the same flow of 9 lpm.

As the flow is increased, the higher the flow rate the lower the
pressure will be. This is what a 'flow curve' is, a comparison of pump
pressure at different flow rates

Here's a web page with the flow curves of some Stuart Turner pumps:

http://www.inspired-bathrooms.co.uk/acatalog/STUART_TURNER_SHOWER_PUMPS.html

1 bar pressure is about the same as 10 metres head of water, ie the
pressure at the bottom of a column of water 10m high.

So looking at the line for a 3 bar twin, a flow rate of 22 lpm will
give pressure equivalent to 25m head which is ~2.5 bar.

If the flow rate is 50 lpm it will a pressure equivalent to 8m head of
water, which is ~0.8 bar.

This probably assumes the same flow through both impellers of the
pump, in practice it might be a bit less if the flow is unequal.

So the pump will run the jets fine on their own but not the shower
head as well if it needs another 25 lpm.


If they can't tell you how much flow it needs then stick a pressure
gauge on the inlet to the panel, if it's above 2 bar then the ball is
in their court as it should work fine at their minimum recommended
pressure.

Well their minimum spec is 1.5 bar.


Looking on the above chart shows the pump can give at best 38 lpm at
that pressure, maybe lower in practice if the hot and cold flow
through the pump is different.

Just concerned you might be making a lot of changes to the plumbing
when the problem is elsewhere.

cheers,
Pete.

On 27 Aug 2005 14:36:29 -0700, wrote:

Hello Pete

Your brave answering another question from me

the jets are chrome but have rubber type nipples, you can remove one
end by unscrewing a cap and you can get to the insides. I stopped short
of pulling them apart though.

Similar to my shower, what I'm planning to do is get some PVC sleeving
off some wire and push it into the jets, so I get a lower flow at a
much higher pressure.

So as the jets are 0.8mm I'll get some sleeving off some '1/06' solid
core wire from Maplins which has an inner diameter of 0.6mm. I've
tried it out already and it looks quite promising.

cheers,
Pete.

Pete C wrote:
On 27 Aug 2005 14:42:19 -0700, wrote:


Pete C wrote:
On 25 Aug 2005 12:53:24 -0700, wrote:

Nothing has fixed my performace issues. HR as stating that they will
send an engineer out to test the valve out but if the shower head
itself is producing an awesome shower surely it cant be the problem.
They also said that I would be charged if it wasn't a valve issue!!!

Looks like it needs 2 bar min and 3 bar ideally, can they tell you how
many lpm it will need at those pressures?

The tech support person said I should be seeing 22 l/minute through the
jets with a 3 bar pump and I am seeing about 15 l/m

If that's through the jets alone and you're trying to run the shower
head as well, it's very likely the pressure from the pump will be too
low at the flow rate needed.


If so compare it to the 'flow curve' of the pump, and if it's way
beyond the pump's spec you're on a hiding to nothing. Either get a
bigger/another pump or reduce the amount of water the shower panel
needs.

The pump guy at Stuart Turned said the pump will only produce 9 litres
a minute though, and he managed to totally confuse the hell out of me.
He also stated that a 4 bar pump would only produce the same, and that
finished me off...........errrr.

He's right, the pump spec is for a given pressure and flow. So a 3 bar
pump will give 3 bar pressure at 9 lpm and a 4 bar pump will give 4
bar pressure also at the same flow of 9 lpm.

As the flow is increased, the higher the flow rate the lower the
pressure will be. This is what a 'flow curve' is, a comparison of pump
pressure at different flow rates

Here's a web page with the flow curves of some Stuart Turner pumps:

http://www.inspired-bathrooms.co.uk/acatalog/STUART_TURNER_SHOWER_PUMPS.html

1 bar pressure is about the same as 10 metres head of water, ie the
pressure at the bottom of a column of water 10m high.

So looking at the line for a 3 bar twin, a flow rate of 22 lpm will
give pressure equivalent to 25m head which is ~2.5 bar.

If the flow rate is 50 lpm it will a pressure equivalent to 8m head of
water, which is ~0.8 bar.

This probably assumes the same flow through both impellers of the
pump, in practice it might be a bit less if the flow is unequal.

So the pump will run the jets fine on their own but not the shower
head as well if it needs another 25 lpm.

But this is my gripe, on their own the shower jets are hardly jets. I
may be expecting too much but I was expecting to have to install grab
rails.



If they can't tell you how much flow it needs then stick a pressure
gauge on the inlet to the panel, if it's above 2 bar then the ball is
in their court as it should work fine at their minimum recommended
pressure.

Well their minimum spec is 1.5 bar.


Looking on the above chart shows the pump can give at best 38 lpm at
that pressure, maybe lower in practice if the hot and cold flow
through the pump is different.

Just concerned you might be making a lot of changes to the plumbing
when the problem is elsewhere.

Im going to digest the above with a large glass of Red wine but on your
last point:

Yes me too, I think I'm going to just accept what I've got. That said
I'm still getting a strange problem when the temp dial is set to a
specific temperature. The pump will suddenly start to cycle on and off.
This carry on until I move off the temperature.

Cheers

Richard


cheers,
Pete.

This shower cost me an arm and a leg, with pump over 1K!!! I dont think
I should have to push bits of wire sleeving into the jets to get a
decent blast. That said what a good idea, and if the worst comes to the
worst I may revert to this.

Cheers

Richard

Well I tried to digest this lot and couldn't, I understood all of the
words but unfortunately none of the sentances It actually wasn't
that bad. I am confused at when you state that I would only need 0.8
bar to produce a flow rate of 50l/m, this has obviously something to do
with the head size but this bit confuses me, what exactly is head? (no
comments please) Is it the distance from the cold water tank to the
shower?

The bottom line is that HR have stated that the shower should work with
1.5 bar pump. I am not even getting a good jet from the body jets alone
with a 3 bar pump and that to me is just not right. As I said in my
other posts on the last measure the jets produced 15 l/m on their own.

It really shouldn't be this hard

Thanks Pete

Richard

On 29 Aug 2005 02:41:28 -0700, wrote:

Well I tried to digest this lot and couldn't, I understood all of the
words but unfortunately none of the sentances It actually wasn't
that bad. I am confused at when you state that I would only need 0.8
bar to produce a flow rate of 50l/m,

Oops, sorry to confuse, I meant if the pump is working at a flow rate
of 50l/m the pressure at the output of the pump will drop to 0.8 bar.

this has obviously something to do
with the head size but this bit confuses me, what exactly is head? (no
comments please) Is it the distance from the cold water tank to the
shower?

With a gravity fed shower, yes. If using a booster pump it's also used
to measure the pressure at the output of the pump.

Say the level in a tank is 30m(!) above a gravity fed shower, this is
a 30m head which creates about 3 bar pressure at the shower head. So
all the pump is doing is creating the same sort of pressure or head
that you would get as if you had a tank wayyy above the shower instead
of a few m above, so giving a more powerful shower.


The bottom line is that HR have stated that the shower should work with
1.5 bar pump. I am not even getting a good jet from the body jets alone
with a 3 bar pump and that to me is just not right. As I said in my
other posts on the last measure the jets produced 15 l/m on their own.

It really shouldn't be this hard

Something to try might be to get a water pressure gauge from Screwfix
and check the pressure on either side of the pump output is at least
1.5 bar when the bodyjets are running.

If it is then either the problem is with the connections to the panel
or the panel itself (faulty or a bit crap), if not the something is
definitely wrong with the pump or the feed to the pump.

You could also check the readings and the flow rate with ST to see if
they think the pump is OK. Looking at the web page I mentioned a 3 bar
twin should give you about 2.5 bar at the output of the pump when
running at 15l/m flow rate.

cheers,
Pete.

Some more thoughts. A 3 bar pump will supply about 50l/m
with a head of 10M ie close to 1bar, that's more than enough to drive a
shower head and a few body jets IME. However, the flow rate at
1bar through a 1.5mm jet is about 1.5l/m so if the body jets have 40
holes, you'll need an additional 60l/m to feed them!! In all
probability, the body jets have about 0.8mm holes, which would reduce
the flow rate to say 17l/m. So it looks as though the problem is to put
40 to 50l/m into the pump. At 25l/m flow, (considering one flow
only--hot) you will lose at least 1.5m of head(head in this case is the
height of the water column feeding into the pump) if only 22mm pipe is
used, if you reduce this to 18mm, you can't IM estimation achieve this
flow rate. If you go to 28mm, the available head at this flow rate
should improve by about 1.2m, giving you a real chance. Just another
thought, the pump is mounted as close to the floor as possible isn't
it?, because this will increase the head of water available and improve
the flow rate into the pump.

I have just measured 45l/m coming out of a not very free flow
bath mixer tap with a pump on and a 22mm check valve in series(o/p side
of the pump), so your shower should be perfectly feasible.
You might have a Google at "watermill showers" and look at
their installation instructions to see if it helps.


Regards
Capitol

Hmmm, wonder if the OP has given up?

The road to a perfect shower is littered with.... insert witty answer
here

cheers,
Pete.

Pete C wrote:

Hmmm, wonder if the OP has given up?

The road to a perfect shower is littered with.... insert witty answer
here

A heap of discarded combis?

--

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:21:32 +0100, Matt
wrote:

Pete C wrote:

Hmmm, wonder if the OP has given up?

The road to a perfect shower is littered with.... insert witty answer
here

A heap of discarded combis?

LOL!

Pete C wrote:
Hmmm, wonder if the OP has given up?

Me give up, not a chance!

Just waiting for the pump guy to ring me back and the shower valve
engineer to get his arse in gear. Once they have been given a clean
bill of health I will continue on my quest. Busy doing windows right
now though...........

Cheers

Richard


The road to a perfect shower is littered with.... insert witty answer
here

cheers,
Pete.