Aside from the Swiss thing, I'm really not very fond of "auctions" that
have a stating bid of 2% lower than the "buy it now" price. If you put a
bid in, just go for 2% more and take it off the market and get the
auction over.

Charles Morrill wrote:
The swiss stuff just looks so good....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW





I understand the Aciera had a whole pile of accessories, sort of
like the ultimate Emco or Myford kind of thing.

It looks to me like a fiddly machine to run. Why put the Y axis adjustment
on the back of the machine? Or in other words why put the main machine
between the operator and the adjustment and what he's trying to see to
adjust? It's MY prejudice but the Swiss machines that I have had to keep
running are not built with ergonomics in mind, and they take a lot of
adjusting to keep them going. Its a different mind set I guess. We have
assembly lines custom made in Chicago and Switzerland. The Chicago machine
does with ten parts what the Swiss machine does with 35 small parts. The
Swiss machines are constantly needing attention to keep running, while the
Chicago machine just keeps rolling along.
lg
no neat sig line

"Charles Morrill" wrote in message
news:2005022011403127590%deichles@yahoocom...
The swiss stuff just looks so good....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW




I understand the Aciera had a whole pile of accessories, sort of like
the ultimate Emco or Myford kind of thing.

"larry g" wrote in message
...
It looks to me like a fiddly machine to run. Why put the Y axis
adjustment
on the back of the machine? Or in other words why put the main machine
between the operator and the adjustment and what he's trying to see to
adjust? It's MY prejudice but the Swiss machines that I have had to keep
running are not built with ergonomics in mind, and they take a lot of
adjusting to keep them going. Its a different mind set I guess. We have
assembly lines custom made in Chicago and Switzerland. The Chicago
machine
does with ten parts what the Swiss machine does with 35 small parts. The
Swiss machines are constantly needing attention to keep running, while the
Chicago machine just keeps rolling along.

That's the Swiss/German engineering mindset (which I otherwise admire),
which says, "Never use two parts to do a job when three parts will do."

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"larry g" wrote in message
...

It looks to me like a fiddly machine to run. Why put the Y axis

adjustment

on the back of the machine? Or in other words why put the main machine
between the operator and the adjustment and what he's trying to see to
adjust? It's MY prejudice but the Swiss machines that I have had to keep
running are not built with ergonomics in mind, and they take a lot of
adjusting to keep them going. Its a different mind set I guess. We have
assembly lines custom made in Chicago and Switzerland. The Chicago

machine

does with ten parts what the Swiss machine does with 35 small parts. The
Swiss machines are constantly needing attention to keep running, while the
Chicago machine just keeps rolling along.


That's the Swiss/German engineering mindset (which I otherwise admire),
which says, "Never use two parts to do a job when three parts will do."

--
Ed Huntress


Is that worse than the british, a well built machine must offer a chalange

"Dan Buckman" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"larry g" wrote in message
...

It looks to me like a fiddly machine to run. Why put the Y axis

adjustment

on the back of the machine? Or in other words why put the main machine
between the operator and the adjustment and what he's trying to see to
adjust? It's MY prejudice but the Swiss machines that I have had to keep
running are not built with ergonomics in mind, and they take a lot of
adjusting to keep them going. Its a different mind set I guess. We
have
assembly lines custom made in Chicago and Switzerland. The Chicago

machine

does with ten parts what the Swiss machine does with 35 small parts.
The
Swiss machines are constantly needing attention to keep running, while
the
Chicago machine just keeps rolling along.


That's the Swiss/German engineering mindset (which I otherwise admire),
which says, "Never use two parts to do a job when three parts will do."

--
Ed Huntress


Is that worse than the british, a well built machine must offer a chalange

Hmm. I don't think so. The Brits tend to design things that are very
straightforward and mechanically obvious. I think, for example, of the
little micrometer dial on the side of the distributor of the original A-H
Sprite. It's hard to imagine a more sensible or straightforward way of
adjusting ignition timing. Likewise their several brands of sliding-throat
carburetors. They had too many moving parts and too many places where wear
resulted in a need for adjustment. But they eliminated several circuits in a
carburetor simply by profiling a sliding needle that took care of
square-ratio effects with real mechanical simplicity.

Years ago I wrote an article about national character and engineering style,
and some interesting sayings cropped up in my research. This one sounds a
little over-the-top today, but General Motors engineers used to say, "Any
damned fool can design a carburetor for a Rolls-Royce. It takes a genius to
design one for a Chevrolet." g

What they meant was that it's easier to design things when money matters
little and when service and adjustments are not your problem. British
engineering was notorious for being good but requiring frequent adjustment.
The same is true of Italian engineering.

Of course, those generalizations have many exceptions, and proving the point
requires a certain amount of willingness to believe. But there are some very
clear examples that, IMO, show a connection between the style of many
products manufactured within one country that relate to expectations placed
upon the user, as well as manufacturing methods.

Try adjusting the exhaust valves on an old Porsche with a Carrera engine
(like a Speedster) for an extreme example. g

--
Ed Huntress

Having once looked at certain exploded parts diagrams of a Jag
XKE, Ed's argument makes a good bit of sense.
After I finally build the shop out back this summer, I'm thinking
it would be nice to have a small milling machine. I've ripped my
knuckles open on eposed endmills in the Maximat mill head a number of
times at this point, and I don't think that milling is doing my cross
slide any big favors. I have paid my dues in this department!
Sure, the Chinese stuff is probably adequate but I'd like to have
something stiffer, better made, and also small. I guess the Rusnock is
nice or perhaps an older Sheldon. Sometimes small Hardinges turn up.
The Clausings are a bit iffy from what I understand.

Chas Morrill

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:42:50 GMT, Charles Morrill
wrote:

The swiss stuff just looks so good....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW




I understand the Aciera had a whole pile of accessories, sort of
like the ultimate Emco or Myford kind of thing.

Ive got to go pick up my Aciera drill press later this week. It has
"issues" which is why I got it for free. I think it does tapping too.

Gunner

It's better to be a red person in a blue state
than a blue person in a red state. As a red
person, if your blue neighbors turn into a mob
at least you have a gun to protect yourself.
As a blue person, your only hope is to appease
the red mob with herbal tea and marinated tofu.

(Phil Garding)

In article , Ed Huntress says...

That's the Swiss/German engineering mindset (which I otherwise admire),
which says, "Never use two parts to do a job when three parts will do."

My neighbor claims this is why we won ww2. They were so busy
engineering baroque solutions to their problems that we clobbered
them with stone-age, brute force.

After working on his ww2 vintage jeep, I'm honestly inclined
to agree.

BTW the aciera folks on practicalmachinist.com have been watching
this particular machine for some time. It never sells, but it
keeps on coming up. They think the owner has an exaggerated
view of it's worth.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:29:53 -0800, "larry g"
wrote:

It looks to me like a fiddly machine to run. Why put the Y axis adjustment
on the back of the machine? Or in other words why put the main machine
between the operator and the adjustment and what he's trying to see to
adjust? It's MY prejudice but the Swiss machines that I have had to keep
running are not built with ergonomics in mind, and they take a lot of
adjusting to keep them going. Its a different mind set I guess. We have
assembly lines custom made in Chicago and Switzerland. The Chicago machine
does with ten parts what the Swiss machine does with 35 small parts. The
Swiss machines are constantly needing attention to keep running, while the
Chicago machine just keeps rolling along.
lg

Based on this statement I'd hazard to guess that you've never ran a
horizontal mill.

Based on the pics I'd say that this mill is designed to be ran in
horizontal mode primarily with the vertical feature just being a
bonus. The most comfortable position to run a horizontal mill is just
behind the table next to the column. This way you can see what you're
doing. Cincinnati horizontal mills have controls both on the front and
on the side because of this. It's also the only real shortcoming to my
Abene milling machine. The controls are only in the front which is
problematic since I run it in horizontal mode more than I do vertical.
I guess it's a training thing but I find horizontal mode easier to
setup and use for most of my milling.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Dan Buckman" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:

"larry g" wrote in message
...


It looks to me like a fiddly machine to run. Why put the Y axis

adjustment


on the back of the machine? Or in other words why put the main machine
between the operator and the adjustment and what he's trying to see to
adjust? It's MY prejudice but the Swiss machines that I have had to keep
running are not built with ergonomics in mind, and they take a lot of
adjusting to keep them going. Its a different mind set I guess. We

have

assembly lines custom made in Chicago and Switzerland. The Chicago

machine


does with ten parts what the Swiss machine does with 35 small parts.

The

Swiss machines are constantly needing attention to keep running, while

the

Chicago machine just keeps rolling along.


That's the Swiss/German engineering mindset (which I otherwise admire),
which says, "Never use two parts to do a job when three parts will do."

--
Ed Huntress



Is that worse than the british, a well built machine must offer a chalange


Hmm. I don't think so. The Brits tend to design things that are very
straightforward and mechanically obvious. I think, for example, of the
little micrometer dial on the side of the distributor of the original A-H
Sprite. It's hard to imagine a more sensible or straightforward way of
adjusting ignition timing. Likewise their several brands of sliding-throat
carburetors. They had too many moving parts and too many places where wear
resulted in a need for adjustment. But they eliminated several circuits in a
carburetor simply by profiling a sliding needle that took care of
square-ratio effects with real mechanical simplicity.

Years ago I wrote an article about national character and engineering style,
and some interesting sayings cropped up in my research. This one sounds a
little over-the-top today, but General Motors engineers used to say, "Any
damned fool can design a carburetor for a Rolls-Royce. It takes a genius to
design one for a Chevrolet." g

What they meant was that it's easier to design things when money matters
little and when service and adjustments are not your problem. British
engineering was notorious for being good but requiring frequent adjustment.
The same is true of Italian engineering.

Of course, those generalizations have many exceptions, and proving the point
requires a certain amount of willingness to believe. But there are some very
clear examples that, IMO, show a connection between the style of many
products manufactured within one country that relate to expectations placed
upon the user, as well as manufacturing methods.

Try adjusting the exhaust valves on an old Porsche with a Carrera engine
(like a Speedster) for an extreme example. g

--
Ed Huntress


I hate cars so I have no Idea how they engeneer their auto's, I have
had three of their lathes, a myford coppy lathe, a herbert #3 turret
lathe and a harrison. My feeling that they were deliberlety mada a
challange may be somewhat subjective... or not.
Mixing british withworth and sae fasteners ,for one, must have been done
on pourpose.
course you can now point out how amercian manufactures did this for
years (mixing sae and metric though) in their autos just to be
dissagreable (and now you are going to be forced into that mode because
to take any other position might tarnish your self view of being always
right, or maybe that's never being wrong ? Probably the basis for it is
fear of not being listened to) but the old american metalworking (that
is what we were talking about not cars, cars arn't engeneered the're
fashon designed any real engeneering is purly accidental) didn't mix
fasteners and I felt the british stuff (admitedly a small sample) was a
pain compaired to the amercian stuff (much larger sample).

I'm now wondering if it's cars I hate or just the people that talk about
them.
I mean they are machines and I have a definite affinity for things
mechanical, by rights I should like cars. I guess it's probably just
that alot of guys apply their viagra to car-dom then waive it arround.

"Dan Buckman" wrote in message
news
I'm now wondering if it's cars I hate or just the people that talk about
them.

'Good question, Dan. Either way, it certainly gives your posts a noticable
aroma.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Dan Buckman" wrote in message
news

I'm now wondering if it's cars I hate or just the people that talk about
them.


'Good question, Dan. Either way, it certainly gives your posts a noticable
aroma.

--
Ed Huntress



Since you have the lock on "bull" I guess I have to chose some other
odor. I'd like to think the smell of wood smoke or hot cutting fluid
was the redolence you precieved but I suppose the truth is I more often
smell of stale cigars.

People that are excited about cars because they are working on them is
cool, its the phonies with clean fingernails that use the toppic for
social status that smell like a chestnut tree in june.

And there are many more of the latter so I get a skewed opinion of cars.

The volume of your posts suggest to me you are passing up the
opertunity to actually do something with your hands other than type.
Your not getting any younger you know, prety soon it will be too late.
You have neglected your uncles south bend waaaaaay too long.
I can hear it calling Ed....Ed.....where are you Ed.

Dan Buckman wrote in
:

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Dan Buckman" wrote in message
news

I'm now wondering if it's cars I hate or just the people that talk
about them.


'Good question, Dan. Either way, it certainly gives your posts a
noticable aroma.

--
Ed Huntress



Since you have the lock on "bull" I guess I have to chose some other
odor. I'd like to think the smell of wood smoke or hot cutting fluid
was the redolence you precieved but I suppose the truth is I more
often smell of stale cigars.

People that are excited about cars because they are working on them is
cool, its the phonies with clean fingernails that use the toppic for
social status that smell like a chestnut tree in june.

And there are many more of the latter so I get a skewed opinion of
cars.

The volume of your posts suggest to me you are passing up the
opertunity to actually do something with your hands other than type.
Your not getting any younger you know, prety soon it will be too late.
You have neglected your uncles south bend waaaaaay too long.
I can hear it calling Ed....Ed.....where are you Ed.


Had to butt in, sorry.
A Chestnut tree in June???. That anything like a "**** elm" in any month??
granpaw (ducking)..

"Dan Buckman" wrote in message
...

Since you have the lock on "bull" I guess I have to chose some other
odor. I'd like to think the smell of wood smoke or hot cutting fluid
was the redolence you precieved but I suppose the truth is I more often
smell of stale cigars.

I figured it was something like that.


People that are excited about cars because they are working on them is
cool, its the phonies with clean fingernails that use the toppic for
social status that smell like a chestnut tree in june.

'Sounds like you're bitter about people who have a hobby you don't like.
Cars are a lot more fun than cigars.


And there are many more of the latter so I get a skewed opinion of cars.

The volume of your posts suggest to me you are passing up the
opertunity to actually do something with your hands other than type.

I write for a living. When I'm working on a lengthy project, I take frequent
breaks here.

Your not getting any younger you know, prety soon it will be too late.

You ought to give up the cigars and do something constructive with that
time, Dan. Maybe you could take up cars for a hobby. They'll make you a lot
less crabby.

--
Ed Huntress

granpaw wrote:
Dan Buckman wrote in
:


Ed Huntress wrote:

"Dan Buckman" wrote in message
news


I'm now wondering if it's cars I hate or just the people that talk
about them.


'Good question, Dan. Either way, it certainly gives your posts a
noticable aroma.

--
Ed Huntress



Since you have the lock on "bull" I guess I have to chose some other
odor. I'd like to think the smell of wood smoke or hot cutting fluid
was the redolence you precieved but I suppose the truth is I more
often smell of stale cigars.

People that are excited about cars because they are working on them is
cool, its the phonies with clean fingernails that use the toppic for
social status that smell like a chestnut tree in june.

And there are many more of the latter so I get a skewed opinion of
cars.

The volume of your posts suggest to me you are passing up the
opertunity to actually do something with your hands other than type.
Your not getting any younger you know, prety soon it will be too late.
You have neglected your uncles south bend waaaaaay too long.
I can hear it calling Ed....Ed.....where are you Ed.



Had to butt in, sorry.
A Chestnut tree in June???. That anything like a "**** elm" in any month??
granpaw (ducking)..


I don't know what a **** elm smells like, so I can't say maybe Ed could
tell you he started this olfactory tangent.
I'm not sure if all varieties of chestnut have that smell or not. I
think it may be the american chestnut and it is very powerfull.

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Dan Buckman" wrote in message
...


Since you have the lock on "bull" I guess I have to chose some other
odor. I'd like to think the smell of wood smoke or hot cutting fluid
was the redolence you precieved but I suppose the truth is I more often
smell of stale cigars.


I figured it was something like that.


People that are excited about cars because they are working on them is
cool, its the phonies with clean fingernails that use the toppic for
social status that smell like a chestnut tree in june.


'Sounds like you're bitter about people who have a hobby you don't like.
Cars are a lot more fun than cigars.

Ciggars arn't even in the fun catagory, they are just a bad habbit.



And there are many more of the latter so I get a skewed opinion of cars.

The volume of your posts suggest to me you are passing up the
opertunity to actually do something with your hands other than type.


I write for a living. When I'm working on a lengthy project, I take frequent
breaks here.


Your not getting any younger you know, prety soon it will be too late.


You ought to give up the cigars and do something constructive with that
time, Dan. Maybe you could take up cars for a hobby. They'll make you a lot
less crabby.

No see, I need to learn how to argue, so I've been watching you. Credit
where it's due you endlessly debate and aside from a few cheep tricks
(or perhaps because of them) your a trooper in the trenches.

Now as it happens I have again gained the attention of the township. I
have 15,000' of building that was at one time a ford dealership. The
townsip in their infinite wisdumb zoned it village central.
I rent most of it out to 5 tennants two are more or less automotive one
is a little recording studio (I think will fit under village center) and
the other two are woodworkers.
I got a permit for the entire place when I bought it (1992) for
automotive repair and sales and auto body. None of the tennants have
bothered to get permits, and township wants them to wich is fine except
that according to the lawyer they can then try to fix that use to those
spaces and require a varriance should you need to rent to something else
down the road ($1000 for an chance they might step out of character and
actuall approve anything) . The other two problems is they come up with
unusual conditions and that by getting a permit you grant them the right
to inspect. Legal advice is; nonconforming multiple use is a big grey
area with no precedents in court. If it goes to court it's anybodys
guess how it would turn out, legal advice is also to forget about your
rights and play the game since court is so expencive and the bottom line
in an invesment is money. Which I guess it what the townships are
counting on and why they keep and try to enforce ordanances even after
they have failed in court. A big game in a dirty little sand box.
As for me I was just back here in my building puttering with my
toys. The month befor I got the love letter from the township I was
dancing arround the shop and laughing at myself because of this cute
articulating dresser I made for the surface grinder. (when I got it done
I decided it was too prety, for actual use I would need to make
something cruder, hence why I was laughing at myself. That and I
couldn't walk by it without turning the knurled brass adjusting screw)
Zoning officer looks at my shop and says "machine shop" ,, My permit
says auto'''' I am not changing the permit, because of what they have
written and previous attemts I am sure they want that permit because it
was issued without conditions.
So I'm dumping half my toys (you can't work on cars with your bare hands
so I gotta be able to keep some) So it at least looks like I could be
working on cars.

I figgure if I could make any head way with you I have a shot at the
township.
They arn't as smart as you but present the same we are always right
total solid wall. No matter how conflicting the ordinances are no matter
how many times they have lost in court no matter how arbitrary, they are
absolutly sure they are in the right.

Crabby is a definite option.
It's how my father does it, he gets in their face untill they back down.
I don't have his tallent. Your mode looks more like wear them down,
never admit anything, not sure if I have that kind of stamina.

Realy I think you aught to go out and check to see if that lathe is
still there. Gremlins in the night are just emmisaries of the townsip
and they love to eat your toys.

Actually Wayne I'm the proud owner of a POS Hz mill. It seems to have
controls all around it, but the main drivers position is in the front.
This machine in the picture I looked and saw that if running the vertical
head that to set the Y position your on the wrong end of the machine to see.
I've no doubt that it is a good machine and I would not refuse it if it came
my way, I just soured on the Swiss/French mace machines that I have had to
work on in the past.
lg
no neat sig line
"Wayne Cook" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:29:53 -0800, "larry g"
wrote:

It looks to me like a fiddly machine to run. Why put the Y axis
adjustment
on the back of the machine? Or in other words why put the main machine
between the operator and the adjustment and what he's trying to see to
adjust? It's MY prejudice but the Swiss machines that I have had to keep
running are not built with ergonomics in mind, and they take a lot of
adjusting to keep them going. Its a different mind set I guess. We have
assembly lines custom made in Chicago and Switzerland. The Chicago
machine
does with ten parts what the Swiss machine does with 35 small parts. The
Swiss machines are constantly needing attention to keep running, while the
Chicago machine just keeps rolling along.
lg

Based on this statement I'd hazard to guess that you've never ran a
horizontal mill.

Based on the pics I'd say that this mill is designed to be ran in
horizontal mode primarily with the vertical feature just being a
bonus. The most comfortable position to run a horizontal mill is just
behind the table next to the column. This way you can see what you're
doing. Cincinnati horizontal mills have controls both on the front and
on the side because of this. It's also the only real shortcoming to my
Abene milling machine. The controls are only in the front which is
problematic since I run it in horizontal mode more than I do vertical.
I guess it's a training thing but I find horizontal mode easier to
setup and use for most of my milling.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook