I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. com...
I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes!
One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel
from
boats and cars.

Carburize it and keep cutting speeds very low, like they did a little over a
century ago, before high-speed steel was developed.

--
Ed Huntress

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

Axles

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit,
understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into
an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes!
One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting
tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel
from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

Axles

Why?

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket
getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of
time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a
bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize
the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and
trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the
finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone
with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable
tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

Axles

Why?

Source of tungston and chrome.
--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket
getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of
time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a
bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize
the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and
trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the
finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone
with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable
tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

Axles

Why?

Source of tungston and chrome.

Most production car axles were made of 1040 until 20 years ago; 1050 today.
When 1040 was the standard, 4140 was used for high-performance axles. Today,
1541 is used for high-performance axles. Race cars use other grades,
including chrome-vanadium types. None of them contain enough carbon to
harden over Rc 45 or so at the max. These grades make great hammer heads but
they can't be hardened enough for metalcutting tools.

No tungsten. And you'd need a hell of a lot of lightbulbs to get it. g The
flash chrome on bumpers would require a lot of stripping to get enough to do
any good, and chrome doesn't make HSS. You need tungsten or molybdenum.

In any case, you'd face quite a trick to make a HSS alloy without some fancy
technology.

Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for
cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you
don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you
just change or sharpen tools more often.

You can carburize low-carbon steel in a charcoal grill with a bellows for
blast. You need a boat (sheet steel, or local clay) or a good carbon pack to
keep the blast from decarburizing the steel. Bone charcoal makes a good
carburizing compound. So, you have to kill something to get some bones. d8-)

There doubtless is some high-carbon steel in cars, but I don't know where.
Shock absorbers usually use the same grades as axles. Maybe pushrods or
lifters. Valves are made from dandy steel, but I don't think they're
sufficiently hardenable, either.

--
Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress says...

Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for
cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you
don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you
just change or sharpen tools more often.

What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well
before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just
cook some up on the kitchen stove...

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed Huntress says...

Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used
for
cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you
don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you
just change or sharpen tools more often.

What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well
before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just
cook some up on the kitchen stove...

Assuming you could find the materials and had a way to measure them (alloys
are pretty strict for the Stellites), you'd need the kitchen stove from Hell
to cook it up. g

--
Ed Huntress

In article , says...
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed Huntress says...

Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used
for
cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you
don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you
just change or sharpen tools more often.

What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well
before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just
cook some up on the kitchen stove...

Assuming you could find the materials and had a way to measure them (alloys
are pretty strict for the Stellites), you'd need the kitchen stove from Hell
to cook it up. g

Which brings up a problem at least as serious as obtaining the raw
materials to make HSS -- the energy required to do metallurgy with
refractory metals in a small isolated place like Nantucket. I'm sure
there'd be higher priority uses for the limited energy available than
making modern metalworking tools.

Ned Simmons

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
In article , says...
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed Huntress says...

Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was
used
for
cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so
you
don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So,
you
just change or sharpen tools more often.

What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well
before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just
cook some up on the kitchen stove...

Assuming you could find the materials and had a way to measure them
(alloys
are pretty strict for the Stellites), you'd need the kitchen stove from
Hell
to cook it up. g

Which brings up a problem at least as serious as obtaining the raw
materials to make HSS -- the energy required to do metallurgy with
refractory metals in a small isolated place like Nantucket. I'm sure
there'd be higher priority uses for the limited energy available than
making modern metalworking tools.

Driftwood charcoal probably isn't specified in the metallurgy manuals. g

Actually, I haven't been there for many years, but I remember seeing
orchards there. Maybe applewood charcoal is a little more consistent.

Given the difficulties of coming up with anything better, and the relative
ease of carburizing common grades of plain, low-carbon steel, making plain
carburized steel for tools looks like the best solution by far. The
limitation is that, compared to the 1,000F or so maximum operating
temperature of HSS, you have to keep maximum temperature at the cutting edge
to something on the order of 350 or 400F.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...

In article , says...

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

In article , Ed Huntress says...


Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was

used

for

cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so

you

don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So,

you

just change or sharpen tools more often.

What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well
before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just
cook some up on the kitchen stove...

Assuming you could find the materials and had a way to measure them

(alloys

are pretty strict for the Stellites), you'd need the kitchen stove from

Hell

to cook it up. g

Which brings up a problem at least as serious as obtaining the raw
materials to make HSS -- the energy required to do metallurgy with
refractory metals in a small isolated place like Nantucket. I'm sure
there'd be higher priority uses for the limited energy available than
making modern metalworking tools.


Driftwood charcoal probably isn't specified in the metallurgy manuals. g

Actually, I haven't been there for many years, but I remember seeing
orchards there. Maybe applewood charcoal is a little more consistent.

Given the difficulties of coming up with anything better, and the relative
ease of carburizing common grades of plain, low-carbon steel, making plain
carburized steel for tools looks like the best solution by far. The
limitation is that, compared to the 1,000F or so maximum operating
temperature of HSS, you have to keep maximum temperature at the cutting edge
to something on the order of 350 or 400F.

At the risk of being redundant, you'd
have to have high-speed machines to really
need high-speed steel. I haven't read
the book, but I'd assume that the isolated
place is no longer on the power grid.

In article , huntres23
@optonline.net says...
"Ned Simmons" wrote in message


Which brings up a problem at least as serious as obtaining the raw
materials to make HSS -- the energy required to do metallurgy with
refractory metals in a small isolated place like Nantucket. I'm sure
there'd be higher priority uses for the limited energy available than
making modern metalworking tools.

Driftwood charcoal probably isn't specified in the metallurgy manuals. g

Actually, I haven't been there for many years, but I remember seeing
orchards there. Maybe applewood charcoal is a little more consistent.

Try telling the orchard owner facing winter in the North
Atlantic that you need a few cords of his firewood to make
a drill bit g.


Given the difficulties of coming up with anything better, and the relative
ease of carburizing common grades of plain, low-carbon steel, making plain
carburized steel for tools looks like the best solution by far. The
limitation is that, compared to the 1,000F or so maximum operating
temperature of HSS, you have to keep maximum temperature at the cutting edge
to something on the order of 350 or 400F.

And who's in a hurry in 1200BC Nantucket anyway?

Ned Simmons

Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil or leaf
spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be able to
harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs?

-Will


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket
getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of
time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a
bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize
the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and
trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the
finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone
with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable
tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

Axles

Why?

Source of tungston and chrome.

Most production car axles were made of 1040 until 20 years ago; 1050
today.
When 1040 was the standard, 4140 was used for high-performance axles.
Today,
1541 is used for high-performance axles. Race cars use other grades,
including chrome-vanadium types. None of them contain enough carbon to
harden over Rc 45 or so at the max. These grades make great hammer heads
but
they can't be hardened enough for metalcutting tools.

No tungsten. And you'd need a hell of a lot of lightbulbs to get it. g
The
flash chrome on bumpers would require a lot of stripping to get enough to
do
any good, and chrome doesn't make HSS. You need tungsten or molybdenum.

In any case, you'd face quite a trick to make a HSS alloy without some
fancy
technology.

Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for
cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you
don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you
just change or sharpen tools more often.

You can carburize low-carbon steel in a charcoal grill with a bellows for
blast. You need a boat (sheet steel, or local clay) or a good carbon pack
to
keep the blast from decarburizing the steel. Bone charcoal makes a good
carburizing compound. So, you have to kill something to get some bones.
d8-)

There doubtless is some high-carbon steel in cars, but I don't know where.
Shock absorbers usually use the same grades as axles. Maybe pushrods or
lifters. Valves are made from dandy steel, but I don't think they're
sufficiently hardenable, either.

--
Ed Huntress

"Will" wrote in message
...
Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil or
leaf
spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be able to
harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs?

I don't know the alloys that are used for either one. I happen to remember
the axle alloys because I looked it up last year.

In any case, valve springs are very small and would be of limited use. I
doubt if there's any advantage to using either one for cutting tools, and Rc
56-60 is pretty marginal for cutting steel. It's generally accepted that you
need Rc 60 or more. 60 points of carbon isn't enough to do it, unless it's
combined with enough chromium to boost the hardening potential of the
carbon. I don't think that's the case with suspension-spring steel,
although, again, I'd have to look up the alloys used for valve springs.

--
Ed Huntress

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well
before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just
cook some up on the kitchen stove...

Assuming you could find the materials and had a way to measure them
(alloys
are pretty strict for the Stellites), you'd need the kitchen stove from
Hell
to cook it up. g

Eh, not too bad.
http://www.matweb.com/search/Specifi...bassnum=NSTA33
Says melting point 2290°F, though no mention if that's complete fusion or
just liquidus or solidus.

For the tungsten, you could raid the welding shop (or golf shop, for
tungsten-weighted clubs). I don't know how you'd get it to dissolve
though,
you'll need a hell of a hammer to bash all the tungsten to a powder.
Chromium could come from plating shops, if there's any around. As
mentioned, you can't get much from bumpers; plating shops might have some
bulk metal or chemical but besides that there isn't much else using it.
Cobalt, magnets maybe?

Besides those possibilities, it'll probably take a skilled alchemist g
to
concentrate the materials alloyed in other things. Say...could you melt
some alloy steel and run air through it ala Bessemer, burning out the
"impurities" as oxides which you then collect and seperate later?

If we get sent back in time, Tim, you're *not* in charge of making cutting
tools. g

--
Ed Huntress

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. com...
I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes!
One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting
tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities
of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel
from boats and cars.

Thats pretty much the bronze age.
Since you like to read, your answer is in "The Mysterious Island" by Jules
Verne. Which is something every high-school age male should read anyway.

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:43:14 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Will" wrote in message
...
Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil or
leaf
spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be able to
harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs?

I don't know the alloys that are used for either one. I happen to remember
the axle alloys because I looked it up last year.

In any case, valve springs are very small and would be of limited use. I
doubt if there's any advantage to using either one for cutting tools, and Rc
56-60 is pretty marginal for cutting steel. It's generally accepted that you
need Rc 60 or more. 60 points of carbon isn't enough to do it, unless it's
combined with enough chromium to boost the hardening potential of the
carbon. I don't think that's the case with suspension-spring steel,
although, again, I'd have to look up the alloys used for valve springs.


David Forsyth in South Africa has used ball bearing races as a source of metal
for cutting tools :-

http://iwr.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/lathe/boring.html


Mark Rand
RTFM

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


You piqued my interest, so I've got a copy on order via Amazon :-)


Mark Rand
RTFM

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:43:14 -0500, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

"Will" wrote in message
...
Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil or
leaf
spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be able
to
harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs?

I don't know the alloys that are used for either one. I happen to
remember
the axle alloys because I looked it up last year.

In any case, valve springs are very small and would be of limited use. I
doubt if there's any advantage to using either one for cutting tools, and
Rc
56-60 is pretty marginal for cutting steel. It's generally accepted that
you
need Rc 60 or more. 60 points of carbon isn't enough to do it, unless
it's
combined with enough chromium to boost the hardening potential of the
carbon. I don't think that's the case with suspension-spring steel,
although, again, I'd have to look up the alloys used for valve springs.


David Forsyth in South Africa has used ball bearing races as a source of
metal
for cutting tools :-

http://iwr.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/lathe/boring.html

Bearing races are made from either a carburizing grade (usually SAE 8620) or
a through-hardening high-carbon steel (SAE 52100, which is 1.00% chromium
and 1% [100 points] carbon). 52100 will harden up nicely for cutting tools.
It's a good clean steel and it's quite strong.

However, for the record, I doubt if it will cut one bit better or last more
than slightly longer than carburized low-carbon steel. Like plain-carbon
steels, its tempering temperatures are quite low, so it won't take any heat
in cutting without going soft. The chromium content may increase the wear
resistance somewhat.

--
Ed Huntress

In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote:
I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods.

The main hobby machinist was patterned after a real hobby
machinist, who at that time lived on Nantucket. (He actually just moved
to Maine in the last year.)

Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.

They also have as a resource a sail-powered Coast Guard training
ship, which proves to be an invaluable resource, and the massive forests
on the mainland to serve as materials for building more sailing ships.

I won't bother to give away too much, as the story continues
beyond that single book.

In any case -- it is a wonderful read for anyone in this
newsgroup.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article ,
Jim Stewart wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:

[ ... ]

Given the difficulties of coming up with anything better, and the relative
ease of carburizing common grades of plain, low-carbon steel, making plain
carburized steel for tools looks like the best solution by far. The
limitation is that, compared to the 1,000F or so maximum operating
temperature of HSS, you have to keep maximum temperature at the cutting edge
to something on the order of 350 or 400F.

At the risk of being redundant, you'd
have to have high-speed machines to really
need high-speed steel. I haven't read
the book, but I'd assume that the isolated
place is no longer on the power grid.

Read the book! It is an excellent read, and I don't want to
give away too much of what is done there.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.

I'll be looking for that book next visit to Borders.

Tool steel is merely carbon steel harder than the material it must cut
for long enough to do the job at cutting speed that doesn't overheat
it. Any steel can be made thus hard in a charcoal fire,
case-hardened with bone meal in a muffle. The result can be harder
and sharper than HSS tooling. It's LSS, works just fine.

High Speed Steel can take more heat than tool steel so it can take
higher speed and feed. But high speed is not necessary to make
goods. High speed in 1200 BC? How fast could they pedal or crank?

"Tom" wrote in message
...
jim rozen wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress says...

Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used
for
cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so
you
don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So,
you
just change or sharpen tools more often.

What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well
before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just
cook some up on the kitchen stove...

Jim


A short history of HSS:
http://www.tech.plymouth.ac.uk/sme/desnotes/toolst.htm

Stellite came quite a time later:
http://www.haynesintl.com/Historypage/History.htm


Thanks for the links, Tom.

Harold

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:43:14 -0500, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

"Will" wrote in message
...
Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil
or
leaf
spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be
able
to
harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs?

I don't know the alloys that are used for either one. I happen to
remember
the axle alloys because I looked it up last year.

In any case, valve springs are very small and would be of limited use.
I
doubt if there's any advantage to using either one for cutting tools,
and
Rc
56-60 is pretty marginal for cutting steel. It's generally accepted
that
you
need Rc 60 or more. 60 points of carbon isn't enough to do it, unless
it's
combined with enough chromium to boost the hardening potential of the
carbon. I don't think that's the case with suspension-spring steel,
although, again, I'd have to look up the alloys used for valve springs.


David Forsyth in South Africa has used ball bearing races as a source of
metal
for cutting tools :-

http://iwr.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/lathe/boring.html

Bearing races are made from either a carburizing grade (usually SAE 8620)
or
a through-hardening high-carbon steel (SAE 52100, which is 1.00% chromium
and 1% [100 points] carbon). 52100 will harden up nicely for cutting
tools.
It's a good clean steel and it's quite strong.

However, for the record, I doubt if it will cut one bit better or last
more
than slightly longer than carburized low-carbon steel. Like plain-carbon
steels, its tempering temperatures are quite low, so it won't take any
heat
in cutting without going soft. The chromium content may increase the wear
resistance somewhat.

--
Ed Huntress

I fully agree.
Harold

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
snip------

Tool steel is merely carbon steel harder than the material it must cut
for long enough to do the job at cutting speed that doesn't overheat
it. Any steel can be made thus hard in a charcoal fire,
case-hardened with bone meal in a muffle.

Actually accomplished quite satisfactorily by any source of carbon, it need
not be bone meal. In commercial operations, it's often done with
atmosphere, simply by providing too much fuel. For pack hardening,
carbonized peach pits are often used.

The result can be harder
and sharper than HSS tooling. It's LSS, works just fine.

If you've never tried carbon steel for machining, especially if you're
running reasonably modern machines, you'll never know the frustration that
comes with its use. Once you're used to the performance level of HSS,
it's nearly impossible to revert to lesser cutting tools. It seems so
unnatural to cut so slowly------but then perhaps for many of the home shop
types, that isn't a problem. Having worked in industry, it drives me nuts!
I own a 1-1/8" carbon steel drill, purchased for a buck at a flea market.
Absolutely worthless for anything but non-ferrous use.

Harold

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:49:16 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


If you've never tried carbon steel for machining, especially if you're
running reasonably modern machines, you'll never know the frustration that
comes with its use. Once you're used to the performance level of HSS,
it's nearly impossible to revert to lesser cutting tools. It seems so
unnatural to cut so slowly------but then perhaps for many of the home shop
types, that isn't a problem. Having worked in industry, it drives me nuts!
I own a 1-1/8" carbon steel drill, purchased for a buck at a flea market.
Absolutely worthless for anything but non-ferrous use.

Right, but man has known how to make carbon steel for hundreds of
years, long before machines went any faster than one could turn a
crank by hand or with oxen.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC.
SNip

I'll be looking for that book next visit to Borders.

OK just what is the name of this book?

...lew...

The one exception to this might be carbon steel hand taps. Since they rarely
get hot, they wear as well as the more expensive HSS ones.

Mark



"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:43:14 -0500, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:

"Will" wrote in message
...
Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the
coil
or
leaf
spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be
able
to
harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs?

I don't know the alloys that are used for either one. I happen to
remember
the axle alloys because I looked it up last year.

In any case, valve springs are very small and would be of limited
use.
I
doubt if there's any advantage to using either one for cutting tools,
and
Rc
56-60 is pretty marginal for cutting steel. It's generally accepted
that
you
need Rc 60 or more. 60 points of carbon isn't enough to do it, unless
it's
combined with enough chromium to boost the hardening potential of the
carbon. I don't think that's the case with suspension-spring steel,
although, again, I'd have to look up the alloys used for valve
springs.


David Forsyth in South Africa has used ball bearing races as a source
of
metal
for cutting tools :-

http://iwr.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/lathe/boring.html

Bearing races are made from either a carburizing grade (usually SAE
8620)
or
a through-hardening high-carbon steel (SAE 52100, which is 1.00%
chromium
and 1% [100 points] carbon). 52100 will harden up nicely for cutting
tools.
It's a good clean steel and it's quite strong.

However, for the record, I doubt if it will cut one bit better or last
more
than slightly longer than carburized low-carbon steel. Like plain-carbon
steels, its tempering temperatures are quite low, so it won't take any
heat
in cutting without going soft. The chromium content may increase the
wear
resistance somewhat.

--
Ed Huntress

I fully agree.
Harold

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress says...

Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for
cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you
don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you
just change or sharpen tools more often.

What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well
before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just
cook some up on the kitchen stove...

Jim


A short history of HSS:
http://www.tech.plymouth.ac.uk/sme/desnotes/toolst.htm

Stellite came quite a time later:
http://www.haynesintl.com/Historypage/History.htm

Tom

Tom

Lew Hartswick wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket
getting transported back in time to 1200 BC.

SNip


I'll be looking for that book next visit to Borders.

OK just what is the name of this book?

...lew...

That's Steve Stirling's "Island in the Sea of Time".

Most of what Steve writes is good -- although most of it isn't nearly as
technically oriented. His real interest is history, especially military
history, and it comes out in a lot of alternate universe stories.

I had dinner one time with him and Harry Turtledove and we got off on
these history and alternate history themes -- and what a rat Roger
Zelazny was for not finishing the "Amber" series. It was a fascinating
dinner, especially since unbeknownst to Steve and Harry, Roger Zelazny
was sitting one table over.

If you like "Island", you'd probably also like Eric Flint's "1632",
"1633" and "1634" The Galileo Affair" about a West Virginia coal mining
town tossed back into Germany in the middle of the 30 Years War.

Have you every considered what a modern boring machine would do for the
accuracy and power of 17th Century cannon? Or how to build an airplane
out of what's just lying around?

--RC