I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war) that China would name
their price and we would have to buy it because we simply do not have it.
How real would something like this scenerio be? I'm putting all political
bias to the wayside, plain and simple, are we setting ourselves up for a
major screwing in the long run?
They also said the grade of steel coming out of China is good, they used to
have very poor steel but they're quality is far better than the past.

walt

Walt wrote:
I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war)

The next major war won't require a large quantity of steel.

that China would name
their price and we would have to buy it because we simply do not have it.
How real would something like this scenerio be? I'm putting all political
bias to the wayside, plain and simple, are we setting ourselves up for a
major screwing in the long run?
They also said the grade of steel coming out of China is good, they used to
have very poor steel but they're quality is far better than the past.

walt

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:04:35 GMT, Jim Stewart wrote:
Walt wrote:
I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war)

The next major war won't require a large quantity of steel.

Well, it may, but it had better already be fabricated into weapons
before the war starts. The pace of modern high intensity combat
is so rapid that there's no time to tool up and produce weapons
after the fighting starts.

It is highly unlikely that we'll ever have another major war like WWII
where we can start the fight unprepared then tool up and produce
enough weapons during the combat phase to affect the outcome.

Gary

Gary Coffman wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:04:35 GMT, Jim Stewart wrote:

Walt wrote:

I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war)

The next major war won't require a large quantity of steel.


Well, it may, but it had better already be fabricated into weapons
before the war starts. The pace of modern high intensity combat
is so rapid that there's no time to tool up and produce weapons
after the fighting starts.

That was my point. I just tend to be a little less verbose
than you

It is highly unlikely that we'll ever have another major war like WWII
where we can start the fight unprepared then tool up and produce
enough weapons during the combat phase to affect the outcome.

The next war will need tungsten carbide, DU, titanium,
aluminum alloys, lead and brass. Lots of brass. I'd
guess we have plenty of scrap steel "in the bank" in
terms of mothballed ships, wrecked cars, and scrap rail
that can meet the need.

I work in the steel industry. the company I work for is one of the largest
companies of scrap metal recycling, mills, and rebar fabricators in the
country and the world. China is buying approximately 25% of all US scrap
steel and they are also producing about 25% of the worlds steel and they
aren't exporting very much. That drove the prices of steel in the USA sky
high. this time last year, we were fabricating rebar for as little as 16
cents a pound. Right now, we are at about 40 cents a pound minimum. We don't
have a shortage. there is more than enough steel in America. But, people
don't like paying the price of steel right now.
and it isn't just domestic steel that costs so much right now. The price is
high for imported steel as well.
Granted I haven't been keeping up with the politics as much as some of the
salesmen in my company, but I do know that China is affecting the worlds
steel economy.

Brent

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
s.com...
Gary Coffman wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:04:35 GMT, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Walt wrote:

I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the
high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of
scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for
products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war)

The next major war won't require a large quantity of steel.


Well, it may, but it had better already be fabricated into weapons
before the war starts. The pace of modern high intensity combat
is so rapid that there's no time to tool up and produce weapons
after the fighting starts.

That was my point. I just tend to be a little less verbose
than you

It is highly unlikely that we'll ever have another major war like WWII
where we can start the fight unprepared then tool up and produce
enough weapons during the combat phase to affect the outcome.

The next war will need tungsten carbide, DU, titanium,
aluminum alloys, lead and brass. Lots of brass. I'd
guess we have plenty of scrap steel "in the bank" in
terms of mothballed ships, wrecked cars, and scrap rail
that can meet the need.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:02:49 GMT, "Brent"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

China is buying approximately 25% of all US scrap
steel and they are also producing about 25% of the worlds steel and they
aren't exporting very much. That drove the prices of steel in the USA sky
high.



I beg to differ G. _Greed_ drove up the price.
************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?

I recently heard about the China purchases of steel so I did a little
surfing and found a recent (Newsweek, I think it was) article on the
subject. The article did acknowledge the facts listed below, but, in
addition, it said that the main reason that the China purchases are a
problem for us is that our (US) method of making steel has changed. It
said that we used to use mostly open hearth furnaces which can use iron
ore, but now we use mostly electric furnaces, that require scrap steel,
instead.
That's not a solution, though. I'd guess it means that costs will
stay higher, but maybe it'll mean that some companies will restart open
hearth steel manufacturing?? How else can the US and world market
for steel products grow?

Pete Stanaitis
---------------

Brent wrote:

I work in the steel industry. the company I work for is one of the largest
companies of scrap metal recycling, mills, and rebar fabricators in the
country and the world. China is buying approximately 25% of all US scrap
steel and they are also producing about 25% of the worlds steel and they
aren't exporting very much. That drove the prices of steel in the USA sky
high. this time last year, we were fabricating rebar for as little as 16
cents a pound. Right now, we are at about 40 cents a pound minimum. We don't
have a shortage. there is more than enough steel in America. But, people
don't like paying the price of steel right now.
and it isn't just domestic steel that costs so much right now. The price is
high for imported steel as well.
Granted I haven't been keeping up with the politics as much as some of the
salesmen in my company, but I do know that China is affecting the worlds
steel economy.

Brent

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
s.com...

Gary Coffman wrote:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:04:35 GMT, Jim Stewart

wrote:

Walt wrote:


I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the

high

prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of

scrap

steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for

products

as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war)

The next major war won't require a large quantity of steel.


Well, it may, but it had better already be fabricated into weapons
before the war starts. The pace of modern high intensity combat
is so rapid that there's no time to tool up and produce weapons
after the fighting starts.

That was my point. I just tend to be a little less verbose
than you


It is highly unlikely that we'll ever have another major war like WWII
where we can start the fight unprepared then tool up and produce
enough weapons during the combat phase to affect the outcome.

The next war will need tungsten carbide, DU, titanium,
aluminum alloys, lead and brass. Lots of brass. I'd
guess we have plenty of scrap steel "in the bank" in
terms of mothballed ships, wrecked cars, and scrap rail
that can meet the need.

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:02:49 GMT, "Brent"
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

China is buying approximately 25% of all US scrap
steel and they are also producing about 25% of the worlds steel and they
aren't exporting very much. That drove the prices of steel in the USA sky
high.



I beg to differ G. _Greed_ drove up the price.

Supply-and-demand pricing, Nick. It's what the market will bear. If the
market is really hot, as it is right now, it's all a matter of what the
market is willing and able to pay.

You can call that greed, or you can call it pricing in a free market. It
works both ways, so I'm inclined not to use a pejorative to describe it when
it happens to be working in the selling companies' favor. When the market is
glutted, they may have to unload inventories at a loss. Who is the greedy
one then?

Ed Huntress

"Pete & sheri" wrote in message
...
I recently heard about the China purchases of steel so I did a little
surfing and found a recent (Newsweek, I think it was) article on the
subject. The article did acknowledge the facts listed below, but, in
addition, it said that the main reason that the China purchases are a
problem for us is that our (US) method of making steel has changed. It
said that we used to use mostly open hearth furnaces which can use iron
ore, but now we use mostly electric furnaces, that require scrap steel,
instead.
That's not a solution, though. I'd guess it means that costs will
stay higher, but maybe it'll mean that some companies will restart open
hearth steel manufacturing?? How else can the US and world market
for steel products grow?

The generic term for making steel from iron ore is "primary steelmaking."
Electric-furnace minimills use scrap. That's called "secondary steelmaking."

The US has lost a lot of primary steelmaking (relatively speaking) for
several reasons, but we've made out better overall by focusing on secondary
steelmaking, at least since the late '70s. The world is loaded with primary
steelmaking capacity and a lot of it is financed by the governments of
developing economies. How much of it makes sense in the US is the subject of
a large and continuing debate.

I used to cover the steel industry for _American Machinist_ back in the
'70s, and it was just as big an issue then. As the world changes (who would
have guessed, back in the '80s, that China's demand would explode so
quickly?), the equation changes. Most likely, we're better off focusing on
secondary steel and keeping no more primary steelmaking capacity than we can
run efficiently and economically.

Brent probably can give you a more detailed fix on this issue, but that's
the general situation.

Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pete & sheri" wrote in message
...

I recently heard about the China purchases of steel so I did a little
surfing and found a recent (Newsweek, I think it was) article on the
subject. The article did acknowledge the facts listed below, but, in
addition, it said that the main reason that the China purchases are a
problem for us is that our (US) method of making steel has changed. It
said that we used to use mostly open hearth furnaces which can use iron
ore, but now we use mostly electric furnaces, that require scrap steel,
instead.
That's not a solution, though. I'd guess it means that costs will
stay higher, but maybe it'll mean that some companies will restart open
hearth steel manufacturing?? How else can the US and world market
for steel products grow?


The generic term for making steel from iron ore is "primary steelmaking."
Electric-furnace minimills use scrap. That's called "secondary steelmaking."

The US has lost a lot of primary steelmaking (relatively speaking) for
several reasons, but we've made out better overall by focusing on secondary
steelmaking, at least since the late '70s. The world is loaded with primary
steelmaking capacity and a lot of it is financed by the governments of
developing economies. How much of it makes sense in the US is the subject of
a large and continuing debate.

I used to cover the steel industry for _American Machinist_ back in the
'70s, and it was just as big an issue then. As the world changes (who would
have guessed, back in the '80s, that China's demand would explode so
quickly?), the equation changes. Most likely, we're better off focusing on
secondary steel and keeping no more primary steelmaking capacity than we can
run efficiently and economically.

Locally, we've lost "secondary steelmaking" as well.
A minimill in West Oakland was leveled to make way
for an upscale bigbox retail center. I suspect it
wasn't the only one.

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
s.com...
Ed Huntress wrote:

I used to cover the steel industry for _American Machinist_ back in the
'70s, and it was just as big an issue then. As the world changes (who
would
have guessed, back in the '80s, that China's demand would explode so
quickly?), the equation changes. Most likely, we're better off focusing
on
secondary steel and keeping no more primary steelmaking capacity than we
can
run efficiently and economically.

Locally, we've lost "secondary steelmaking" as well.
A minimill in West Oakland was leveled to make way
for an upscale bigbox retail center. I suspect it
wasn't the only one.


And there's another market force at work: "best and highest use," a
fundamental principle of real estate. If they leveled a minimill to build a
retail center, the retailers must be able to pay more for that land than
it's worth to the minimill owners.

Whether that minimill's demise is part of a net loss of capacity, I don't
know. The secondary steel market in the US has been a lot more stable than
the primary steel market over a 30-year average. Again, maybe Brent has
these facts and figures at his fingertips. They are very easy to find on the
Web. _33 Metal Producing_ magazine (which I used to work for, although not
as a writer) covers the steel industry thoroughly. They probably have a Web
presence.

Ed Huntress

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:34:10 -0600, the renowned Pete & sheri
wrote:

I recently heard about the China purchases of steel so I did a little
surfing and found a recent (Newsweek, I think it was) article on the
subject. The article did acknowledge the facts listed below, but, in
addition, it said that the main reason that the China purchases are a
problem for us is that our (US) method of making steel has changed. It
said that we used to use mostly open hearth furnaces which can use iron
ore, but now we use mostly electric furnaces, that require scrap steel,
instead.
That's not a solution, though. I'd guess it means that costs will
stay higher, but maybe it'll mean that some companies will restart open
hearth steel manufacturing?? How else can the US and world market
for steel products grow?

China alone is producing more steel than the US by more than 50%, and
growing at 20%/year (said to be mostly for domestic consumption). I
think India also is growing rapidly, as is South America (particularly
Brazil).

Europe is producing double the amount the US is, but relatively
static.

Growth doesn't seem to be a problem, but high costs in North America
are. The US is producing less than 10% of the world's steel currently
(by tons), still better than average with only 5% of the population.

Some of the apparent commodity price increases don't look so bad when
you look at them in terms of, say, Euros. Oil prices are pretty much
stable in Euro terms, for example. Gold is dropping. An interesting
development- 30 years ago a devaluation of the USD would mostly just
squeeze resource suppliers, now that doesn't seem to work anymore as
there are other substantial customers out there who are bidding the
prices up. It's also increasing the political clout of countries like
China who are becoming very good customers of resource-based
economies. A truly powerful country doesn't have to throw its weight
around, it can stay very quiet, and we're seeing that happen.

But to put things in perspective, their entire economy only just
recently surpassed that of little ol' Canada, with 40 times the
population, so they have a LONG ways to go.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Great explanation, i didn't know any of the facts so your response was
excellent. It's funny how people think, you would think that if they were in
the scrap business they would know more facts about exporting steel. I also
agree that if a major war started we would be prepared firsthand.
thanks guys,
walt

"Brent" wrote in message
. ..
I work in the steel industry. the company I work for is one of the largest
companies of scrap metal recycling, mills, and rebar fabricators in the
country and the world. China is buying approximately 25% of all US scrap
steel and they are also producing about 25% of the worlds steel and they
aren't exporting very much. That drove the prices of steel in the USA sky
high. this time last year, we were fabricating rebar for as little as 16
cents a pound. Right now, we are at about 40 cents a pound minimum. We
don't
have a shortage. there is more than enough steel in America. But, people
don't like paying the price of steel right now.
and it isn't just domestic steel that costs so much right now. The price
is
high for imported steel as well.
Granted I haven't been keeping up with the politics as much as some of the
salesmen in my company, but I do know that China is affecting the worlds
steel economy.

Brent

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
s.com...
Gary Coffman wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:04:35 GMT, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Walt wrote:

I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal
in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and
the
high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of
scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for
products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a
large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war)

The next major war won't require a large quantity of steel.


Well, it may, but it had better already be fabricated into weapons
before the war starts. The pace of modern high intensity combat
is so rapid that there's no time to tool up and produce weapons
after the fighting starts.

That was my point. I just tend to be a little less verbose
than you

It is highly unlikely that we'll ever have another major war like WWII
where we can start the fight unprepared then tool up and produce
enough weapons during the combat phase to affect the outcome.

The next war will need tungsten carbide, DU, titanium,
aluminum alloys, lead and brass. Lots of brass. I'd
guess we have plenty of scrap steel "in the bank" in
terms of mothballed ships, wrecked cars, and scrap rail
that can meet the need.

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 04:47:15 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

You can call that greed, or you can call it pricing in a free market. It
works both ways, so I'm inclined not to use a pejorative to describe it when
it happens to be working in the selling companies' favor.

Pejorative!??? You want pejorative? China's buying steel does not
force up the price. The price is forced up because people suck and
give not a damn for other people! G?

When the market is
glutted, they may have to unload inventories at a loss. Who is the greedy
one then?

The buyer! I am fine with that idea! I am not always on the seller's
back. Many times, the buyer is just as much a share-mongering
multi-national (and there you see my _true_ colours flying, in case
anyone had missed them so far G) as any seller. The rest of the time
they are usually out to get as much as possible for as litle as
possible.

Pricing on a free market is usually greed based, and somebody usually
suffers.

Greed is what has driven the offshore move. And I include buyer greed
as well as that of the seller. If the Seller sees a way to make bigger
profits, in the short term, they go that way.

I am greedy. If I can get 3 clamps for the price of one, and they
still do the job or even nearly, I buy them......_even if it means U
am consuming somethong that will cost me my job!_.

A classic case. The US has a Mad Cow scare. Japan stops buying US
beef. Australian beef producers rub their hands in what I thought was
quite unholy and unashamedly public glee.....and the Aussie befeater
simply pays a higher beef pricem, because _Aussie beef producers are
making more money_. I think I remember that top it all off, the
Japanese were not happy about buying our beef anyway, because it was
not grain fed. So they would not have the beef, rahther than forego
the very type of beef that is more likely to get Mad Cow.
************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?

"Walt" wrote in message
...
I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the
high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of
scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for
products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war) that China would
name
their price and we would have to buy it because we simply do not have it.
How real would something like this scenerio be? I'm putting all political
bias to the wayside, plain and simple, are we setting ourselves up for a
major screwing in the long run?
They also said the grade of steel coming out of China is good, they used
to
have very poor steel but they're quality is far better than the past.

walt

talking to a m8 who runs a welding supply place and it looks likely that
china buying up steel scrap in enormous amounts is likely to increase prices
substantially...........for instance price of mig wire looks to be going up
by 30% very soon!

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...

Pricing on a free market is usually greed based, and somebody usually
suffers.

Greed is what has driven the offshore move. And I include buyer greed
as well as that of the seller. If the Seller sees a way to make bigger
profits, in the short term, they go that way.

I am greedy. If I can get 3 clamps for the price of one, and they
still do the job or even nearly, I buy them......_even if it means U
am consuming somethong that will cost me my job!_.

Well, remember the inspirational words of Gordon Gecko, "Greed is good." I
sometimes think that some of us could use a little more of it. d8-)

Ed Huntress

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:36:28 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

"Old Nick" wrote in message
.. .

Pricing on a free market is usually greed based, and somebody usually
suffers.

Greed is what has driven the offshore move. And I include buyer greed
as well as that of the seller. If the Seller sees a way to make bigger
profits, in the short term, they go that way.

I am greedy. If I can get 3 clamps for the price of one, and they
still do the job or even nearly, I buy them......_even if it means U
am consuming somethong that will cost me my job!_.

Well, remember the inspirational words of Gordon Gecko, "Greed is good."

You think he was being made a hero when he said that? I never saw the
film, so I do not know.

I sometimes think that some of us could use a little more of it. d8-)

Who, and why?

************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:36:28 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

"Old Nick" wrote in message
.. .

Pricing on a free market is usually greed based, and somebody usually
suffers.

Greed is what has driven the offshore move. And I include buyer greed
as well as that of the seller. If the Seller sees a way to make bigger
profits, in the short term, they go that way.

I am greedy. If I can get 3 clamps for the price of one, and they
still do the job or even nearly, I buy them......_even if it means U
am consuming somethong that will cost me my job!_.

Well, remember the inspirational words of Gordon Gecko, "Greed is good."

You think he was being made a hero when he said that? I never saw the
film, so I do not know.

The film was about the "me" generation and the new culture of greed that
began in the early '80s...and which continues to this day.

The author used the name "Gecko" to suggest that Gordon was a lizardly
character, a greedy slimeball, and hardly a hero.


I sometimes think that some of us could use a little more of it. d8-)

Who, and why?

A lot of people with a traditional idea of business, such as machine-shop
owners, could use a dose of agressive selling. They're hungry enough but
they aren't going right to the source of their hunger: the need for more
sales.

I'm using "greedy" in a facetious sense. What I mean is that we should be
doing a better job of looking out for our real interests. We tend to be too
focused on the technology and holding on to old customers rather than going
after new ones.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)

My understanding is that they are also paying premium prices for
taconite from up north. The low level of the Great Lakes hurt the
shipping companies quite a bit last year. This year should be better
with all the snow/rain we've had. They are already shipping through
the Soo locks.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:46:19 -0500, "Walt"
wrote:

I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war) that China would name
their price and we would have to buy it because we simply do not have it.
How real would something like this scenerio be? I'm putting all political
bias to the wayside, plain and simple, are we setting ourselves up for a
major screwing in the long run?
They also said the grade of steel coming out of China is good, they used to
have very poor steel but they're quality is far better than the past.

walt

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

The author used the name "Gecko" to suggest that Gordon was a lizardly
character, a greedy slimeball, and hardly a hero.

For the record, geckos are not slimy.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed Huntress
says...

The author used the name "Gecko" to suggest that Gordon was a lizardly
character, a greedy slimeball, and hardly a hero.

For the record, geckos are not slimy.

I knew someone had to say that. Not all slimeballs are actually slimy on the
outside. g

Ed Huntress

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Ed
Huntress says...

The author used the name "Gecko" to suggest that Gordon was a
lizardly character, a greedy slimeball, and hardly a hero.

For the record, geckos are not slimy.

Jim
Amen to that. Here in Central America (I am in Honduras at the moment) gekos
are everywhere and a home with them in residence is considered a happy home.
They are neat creatures and their insectivore habits are appreciated.
Regards.
Ken.

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 01:05:23 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email
OK. That was what I thought. Thanks. I was getting worried.

The film was about the "me" generation and the new culture of greed that
began in the early '80s...and which continues to this day.

The author used the name "Gecko" to suggest that Gordon was a lizardly
character, a greedy slimeball, and hardly a hero.


I sometimes think that some of us could use a little more of it. d8-)

Who, and why?

A lot of people with a traditional idea of business, such as machine-shop
owners, could use a dose of agressive selling. They're hungry enough but
they aren't going right to the source of their hunger: the need for more
sales.

I'm using "greedy" in a facetious sense. What I mean is that we should be
doing a better job of looking out for our real interests. We tend to be too
focused on the technology and holding on to old customers rather than going
after new ones.

Hehe. Such as the Chinese! G

************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?

On 29 Mar 2004 17:45:22 -0800, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Ed Huntress
says...

The author used the name "Gecko" to suggest that Gordon was a lizardly
character, a greedy slimeball, and hardly a hero.

For the record, geckos are not slimy.

And at least one of them is reputed to work his tail off to be employee
of the month.

Gary

Gary Coffman wrote:
On 29 Mar 2004 17:45:22 -0800, jim rozen wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
says...


The author used the name "Gecko" to suggest that Gordon was a lizardly
character, a greedy slimeball, and hardly a hero.

For the record, geckos are not slimy.


And at least one of them is reputed to work his tail off to be employee
of the month.

OTOH, they have also been known to eat their young.

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that they are also paying premium prices for
taconite from up north. The low level of the Great Lakes hurt the
shipping companies quite a bit last year. This year should be better
with all the snow/rain we've had. They are already shipping through
the Soo locks.

One mine on Minnesota's iron range recently restarted production of iron ore
that's going directly to China. The mine had been closed for several years
and the Chinese business brought a bunch of miners back to work.

How bizarre is that? They're willing to ship a bunch of rocks with some iron
in it halfway around the world. I suppose they can use the tailings for
construction after the iron is extracted.

I wonder if there will be a Buy American movement up there in a few years.

Pete

Pete Bergstrom wrote:
"Jim K" wrote in message
...

My understanding is that they are also paying premium prices for
taconite from up north. The low level of the Great Lakes hurt the
shipping companies quite a bit last year. This year should be better
with all the snow/rain we've had. They are already shipping through
the Soo locks.


One mine on Minnesota's iron range recently restarted production of iron ore
that's going directly to China. The mine had been closed for several years
and the Chinese business brought a bunch of miners back to work.

Close but no cigar.

The Chinese are to get iron ore from a mine in Canada.
This ore was being shipped to a US Steel mill. the Minnesota ore will
replace this.

It's all in shipping changes, etc.

Howard

"Howard R Garner" wrote in message
...
Pete Bergstrom wrote:
"Jim K" wrote in message
...

My understanding is that they are also paying premium prices for
taconite from up north. The low level of the Great Lakes hurt the
shipping companies quite a bit last year. This year should be better
with all the snow/rain we've had. They are already shipping through
the Soo locks.


One mine on Minnesota's iron range recently restarted production of iron
ore
that's going directly to China. The mine had been closed for several
years
and the Chinese business brought a bunch of miners back to work.

Close but no cigar.

The Chinese are to get iron ore from a mine in Canada.
This ore was being shipped to a US Steel mill. the Minnesota ore will
replace this.

It's all in shipping changes, etc.

Hmm, I guess you must be a lot closer to this than I am. The articles I've
been reading (Star-Tribune and Pioneer Press usually) don't specifically
indicate where the ore is coming from.

Going by a story in the Duluth News Tribune in December, "The 38-year-old
facility includes an iron ore mine at Eveleth and taconite-pellet processing
plant about 10 miles to the south in Forbes."

Thanks,
Pete

Pete Bergstrom wrote:

"Howard R Garner" wrote in message
...

Pete Bergstrom wrote:

"Jim K" wrote in message
...


My understanding is that they are also paying premium prices for
taconite from up north. The low level of the Great Lakes hurt the
shipping companies quite a bit last year. This year should be better
with all the snow/rain we've had. They are already shipping through
the Soo locks.


One mine on Minnesota's iron range recently restarted production of iron

ore

that's going directly to China. The mine had been closed for several

years

and the Chinese business brought a bunch of miners back to work.

Close but no cigar.

The Chinese are to get iron ore from a mine in Canada.
This ore was being shipped to a US Steel mill. the Minnesota ore will
replace this.

It's all in shipping changes, etc.


Hmm, I guess you must be a lot closer to this than I am. The articles I've
been reading (Star-Tribune and Pioneer Press usually) don't specifically
indicate where the ore is coming from.

Going by a story in the Duluth News Tribune in December, "The 38-year-old
facility includes an iron ore mine at Eveleth and taconite-pellet processing
plant about 10 miles to the south in Forbes."

Thanks,
Pete


Pete,

Covered in Trains magazine in the latest issue.

Howard

Close but no cigar.

The Chinese are to get iron ore from a mine in Canada.
This ore was being shipped to a US Steel mill. the Minnesota ore will
replace this.
The article I read said they were shipping low grade ore from
Minnesota to China. It said our ore used to yield something like 70%
but that high grade ore had disappeared in the early 50's and the
current supply from Minnesota was around 30% yield. They are also
buying up enough scrap to create a shortage and spike in the steel
market with prices jumping 30-100% in the last few months.

Addressing the price paid for scrap: Scrap prices rose and as they
reached, say $150 per ton for steel, I started scrapping. It is hard
to nail an exact number because there are different kinds of steel
scrap, e.g. an electric forklift won't bring as much as punchings, and
larger quantities demand higher prices. I heard from several people
that scrap would reach $300 by next month and I should wait. Well, I
told them that when the price of scrap is so high that people are
scrapping machinery and equipment which is in working condition, it
won't go much higher. The price rises to increase the supply. Once
the scrap is flowing at capacity it levels off, and as demand is
filled it falls. Scrap prices have just started to fall, peaking at
about $200. I understand that another factor at work is that
scrapyards in the northen states start moving alot of material in the
spring.
Paul

"Walt" wrote in message ...
I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war) that China would name
their price and we would have to buy it because we simply do not have it.
How real would something like this scenerio be? I'm putting all political
bias to the wayside, plain and simple, are we setting ourselves up for a
major screwing in the long run?
They also said the grade of steel coming out of China is good, they used to
have very poor steel but they're quality is far better than the past.

walt

This is nothing new. China and Asia, for that matter, has been buying
scrap from the U.S. for decades. The funny thing about it is that we
buy it back as new steel. The steel from the World Trade Center went
to Malaysia. Which is a country of islamic extremist.
michael

"Walt" wrote in message ...
I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war) that China would name
their price and we would have to buy it because we simply do not have it.
How real would something like this scenerio be? I'm putting all political
bias to the wayside, plain and simple, are we setting ourselves up for a
major screwing in the long run?
They also said the grade of steel coming out of China is good, they used to
have very poor steel but they're quality is far better than the past.

walt

This is nothing new. China and Asia have been buying scrap steel from
the U.S.
for decades. The funny thing about it is that we buy it back as new
steel.
The steel from the World Trade Center went to Malaysia which is a
islamic
extramist country. If we get into a major war what is the odds of it
being with China. I say pretty good.
michael

On 3 Apr 2004 12:38:49 -0800, the renowned
(michael) wrote:

"Walt" wrote in message ...
I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war) that China would name
their price and we would have to buy it because we simply do not have it.
How real would something like this scenerio be? I'm putting all political
bias to the wayside, plain and simple, are we setting ourselves up for a
major screwing in the long run?
They also said the grade of steel coming out of China is good, they used to
have very poor steel but they're quality is far better than the past.

walt

This is nothing new. China and Asia, for that matter, has been buying
scrap from the U.S. for decades. The funny thing about it is that we
buy it back as new steel. The steel from the World Trade Center went
to Malaysia. Which is a country of islamic extremist.
michael

Nah, Malaysia is cool.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On 3 Apr 2004 12:38:49 -0800, the renowned
(michael) wrote:


"Walt" wrote in message ...

I was talking to a couple today that own a scrap business. They deal in
paper, plastic and steel. We got on the subject of scrap steel and the high
prices we are seeing today. We also talked about China buying alot of scrap
steel. They said that because the US doesn't make as much steel for products
as we used to (using more plastics instead) that if a need for a large
quantity of steel were needed (in case of a major war) that China would name
their price and we would have to buy it because we simply do not have it.
How real would something like this scenerio be? I'm putting all political
bias to the wayside, plain and simple, are we setting ourselves up for a
major screwing in the long run?
They also said the grade of steel coming out of China is good, they used to
have very poor steel but they're quality is far better than the past.

walt

This is nothing new. China and Asia, for that matter, has been buying
scrap from the U.S. for decades. The funny thing about it is that we
buy it back as new steel. The steel from the World Trade Center went
to Malaysia. Which is a country of islamic extremist.
michael


Nah, Malaysia is cool.

Right. There's a difference between being devout
and being an extremist. We don't call Baptists
extremist Christians.