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Making Tool Steel
I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. |
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. com... I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. Carburize it and keep cutting speeds very low, like they did a little over a century ago, before high-speed steel was developed. -- Ed Huntress |
Tom Gardner wrote:
I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars? |
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin
wrote: Tom Gardner wrote: I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars? Axles Gunner Rule #35 "That which does not kill you, has made a huge tactical error" |
"Gunner" wrote in message
... On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin wrote: Tom Gardner wrote: I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars? Axles Why? -- Ed Huntress |
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Gunner" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin wrote: Tom Gardner wrote: I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars? Axles Why? Source of tungston and chrome. -- http://www.rupert.net/~solar Return address supplied by 'spammotel' http://www.spammotel.com |
"Ken Davey" wrote in message
... Ed Huntress wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin wrote: Tom Gardner wrote: I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars? Axles Why? Source of tungston and chrome. Most production car axles were made of 1040 until 20 years ago; 1050 today. When 1040 was the standard, 4140 was used for high-performance axles. Today, 1541 is used for high-performance axles. Race cars use other grades, including chrome-vanadium types. None of them contain enough carbon to harden over Rc 45 or so at the max. These grades make great hammer heads but they can't be hardened enough for metalcutting tools. No tungsten. And you'd need a hell of a lot of lightbulbs to get it. g The flash chrome on bumpers would require a lot of stripping to get enough to do any good, and chrome doesn't make HSS. You need tungsten or molybdenum. In any case, you'd face quite a trick to make a HSS alloy without some fancy technology. Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you just change or sharpen tools more often. You can carburize low-carbon steel in a charcoal grill with a bellows for blast. You need a boat (sheet steel, or local clay) or a good carbon pack to keep the blast from decarburizing the steel. Bone charcoal makes a good carburizing compound. So, you have to kill something to get some bones. d8-) There doubtless is some high-carbon steel in cars, but I don't know where. Shock absorbers usually use the same grades as axles. Maybe pushrods or lifters. Valves are made from dandy steel, but I don't think they're sufficiently hardenable, either. -- Ed Huntress |
In article , Ed Huntress says...
Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you just change or sharpen tools more often. What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just cook some up on the kitchen stove... Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
"jim rozen" wrote in message
... In article , Ed Huntress says... Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you just change or sharpen tools more often. What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just cook some up on the kitchen stove... Assuming you could find the materials and had a way to measure them (alloys are pretty strict for the Stellites), you'd need the kitchen stove from Hell to cook it up. g -- Ed Huntress |
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"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
... In article , says... "jim rozen" wrote in message ... In article , Ed Huntress says... Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you just change or sharpen tools more often. What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just cook some up on the kitchen stove... Assuming you could find the materials and had a way to measure them (alloys are pretty strict for the Stellites), you'd need the kitchen stove from Hell to cook it up. g Which brings up a problem at least as serious as obtaining the raw materials to make HSS -- the energy required to do metallurgy with refractory metals in a small isolated place like Nantucket. I'm sure there'd be higher priority uses for the limited energy available than making modern metalworking tools. Driftwood charcoal probably isn't specified in the metallurgy manuals. g Actually, I haven't been there for many years, but I remember seeing orchards there. Maybe applewood charcoal is a little more consistent. Given the difficulties of coming up with anything better, and the relative ease of carburizing common grades of plain, low-carbon steel, making plain carburized steel for tools looks like the best solution by far. The limitation is that, compared to the 1,000F or so maximum operating temperature of HSS, you have to keep maximum temperature at the cutting edge to something on the order of 350 or 400F. -- Ed Huntress |
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Ned Simmons" wrote in message ... In article , says... "jim rozen" wrote in message ... In article , Ed Huntress says... Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you just change or sharpen tools more often. What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just cook some up on the kitchen stove... Assuming you could find the materials and had a way to measure them (alloys are pretty strict for the Stellites), you'd need the kitchen stove from Hell to cook it up. g Which brings up a problem at least as serious as obtaining the raw materials to make HSS -- the energy required to do metallurgy with refractory metals in a small isolated place like Nantucket. I'm sure there'd be higher priority uses for the limited energy available than making modern metalworking tools. Driftwood charcoal probably isn't specified in the metallurgy manuals. g Actually, I haven't been there for many years, but I remember seeing orchards there. Maybe applewood charcoal is a little more consistent. Given the difficulties of coming up with anything better, and the relative ease of carburizing common grades of plain, low-carbon steel, making plain carburized steel for tools looks like the best solution by far. The limitation is that, compared to the 1,000F or so maximum operating temperature of HSS, you have to keep maximum temperature at the cutting edge to something on the order of 350 or 400F. At the risk of being redundant, you'd have to have high-speed machines to really need high-speed steel. I haven't read the book, but I'd assume that the isolated place is no longer on the power grid. |
In article , huntres23
@optonline.net says... "Ned Simmons" wrote in message Which brings up a problem at least as serious as obtaining the raw materials to make HSS -- the energy required to do metallurgy with refractory metals in a small isolated place like Nantucket. I'm sure there'd be higher priority uses for the limited energy available than making modern metalworking tools. Driftwood charcoal probably isn't specified in the metallurgy manuals. g Actually, I haven't been there for many years, but I remember seeing orchards there. Maybe applewood charcoal is a little more consistent. Try telling the orchard owner facing winter in the North Atlantic that you need a few cords of his firewood to make a drill bit g. Given the difficulties of coming up with anything better, and the relative ease of carburizing common grades of plain, low-carbon steel, making plain carburized steel for tools looks like the best solution by far. The limitation is that, compared to the 1,000F or so maximum operating temperature of HSS, you have to keep maximum temperature at the cutting edge to something on the order of 350 or 400F. And who's in a hurry in 1200BC Nantucket anyway? Ned Simmons |
Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil or leaf
spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be able to harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs? -Will "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Ken Davey" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin wrote: Tom Gardner wrote: I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars? Axles Why? Source of tungston and chrome. Most production car axles were made of 1040 until 20 years ago; 1050 today. When 1040 was the standard, 4140 was used for high-performance axles. Today, 1541 is used for high-performance axles. Race cars use other grades, including chrome-vanadium types. None of them contain enough carbon to harden over Rc 45 or so at the max. These grades make great hammer heads but they can't be hardened enough for metalcutting tools. No tungsten. And you'd need a hell of a lot of lightbulbs to get it. g The flash chrome on bumpers would require a lot of stripping to get enough to do any good, and chrome doesn't make HSS. You need tungsten or molybdenum. In any case, you'd face quite a trick to make a HSS alloy without some fancy technology. Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you just change or sharpen tools more often. You can carburize low-carbon steel in a charcoal grill with a bellows for blast. You need a boat (sheet steel, or local clay) or a good carbon pack to keep the blast from decarburizing the steel. Bone charcoal makes a good carburizing compound. So, you have to kill something to get some bones. d8-) There doubtless is some high-carbon steel in cars, but I don't know where. Shock absorbers usually use the same grades as axles. Maybe pushrods or lifters. Valves are made from dandy steel, but I don't think they're sufficiently hardenable, either. -- Ed Huntress |
"Will" wrote in message
... Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil or leaf spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be able to harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs? I don't know the alloys that are used for either one. I happen to remember the axle alloys because I looked it up last year. In any case, valve springs are very small and would be of limited use. I doubt if there's any advantage to using either one for cutting tools, and Rc 56-60 is pretty marginal for cutting steel. It's generally accepted that you need Rc 60 or more. 60 points of carbon isn't enough to do it, unless it's combined with enough chromium to boost the hardening potential of the carbon. I don't think that's the case with suspension-spring steel, although, again, I'd have to look up the alloys used for valve springs. -- Ed Huntress |
"Tim Williams" wrote in message
... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just cook some up on the kitchen stove... Assuming you could find the materials and had a way to measure them (alloys are pretty strict for the Stellites), you'd need the kitchen stove from Hell to cook it up. g Eh, not too bad. http://www.matweb.com/search/Specifi...bassnum=NSTA33 Says melting point 2290°F, though no mention if that's complete fusion or just liquidus or solidus. For the tungsten, you could raid the welding shop (or golf shop, for tungsten-weighted clubs). I don't know how you'd get it to dissolve though, you'll need a hell of a hammer to bash all the tungsten to a powder. Chromium could come from plating shops, if there's any around. As mentioned, you can't get much from bumpers; plating shops might have some bulk metal or chemical but besides that there isn't much else using it. Cobalt, magnets maybe? Besides those possibilities, it'll probably take a skilled alchemist g to concentrate the materials alloyed in other things. Say...could you melt some alloy steel and run air through it ala Bessemer, burning out the "impurities" as oxides which you then collect and seperate later? If we get sent back in time, Tim, you're *not* in charge of making cutting tools. g -- Ed Huntress |
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. com... I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. Thats pretty much the bronze age. Since you like to read, your answer is in "The Mysterious Island" by Jules Verne. Which is something every high-school age male should read anyway. |
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:43:14 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: "Will" wrote in message ... Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil or leaf spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be able to harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs? I don't know the alloys that are used for either one. I happen to remember the axle alloys because I looked it up last year. In any case, valve springs are very small and would be of limited use. I doubt if there's any advantage to using either one for cutting tools, and Rc 56-60 is pretty marginal for cutting steel. It's generally accepted that you need Rc 60 or more. 60 points of carbon isn't enough to do it, unless it's combined with enough chromium to boost the hardening potential of the carbon. I don't think that's the case with suspension-spring steel, although, again, I'd have to look up the alloys used for valve springs. David Forsyth in South Africa has used ball bearing races as a source of metal for cutting tools :- http://iwr.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/lathe/boring.html Mark Rand RTFM |
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote: I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. You piqued my interest, so I've got a copy on order via Amazon :-) Mark Rand RTFM |
"Mark Rand" wrote in message
... On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:43:14 -0500, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Will" wrote in message ... Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil or leaf spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be able to harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs? I don't know the alloys that are used for either one. I happen to remember the axle alloys because I looked it up last year. In any case, valve springs are very small and would be of limited use. I doubt if there's any advantage to using either one for cutting tools, and Rc 56-60 is pretty marginal for cutting steel. It's generally accepted that you need Rc 60 or more. 60 points of carbon isn't enough to do it, unless it's combined with enough chromium to boost the hardening potential of the carbon. I don't think that's the case with suspension-spring steel, although, again, I'd have to look up the alloys used for valve springs. David Forsyth in South Africa has used ball bearing races as a source of metal for cutting tools :- http://iwr.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/lathe/boring.html Bearing races are made from either a carburizing grade (usually SAE 8620) or a through-hardening high-carbon steel (SAE 52100, which is 1.00% chromium and 1% [100 points] carbon). 52100 will harden up nicely for cutting tools. It's a good clean steel and it's quite strong. However, for the record, I doubt if it will cut one bit better or last more than slightly longer than carburized low-carbon steel. Like plain-carbon steels, its tempering temperatures are quite low, so it won't take any heat in cutting without going soft. The chromium content may increase the wear resistance somewhat. -- Ed Huntress |
In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote: I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. The main hobby machinist was patterned after a real hobby machinist, who at that time lived on Nantucket. (He actually just moved to Maine in the last year.) Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. They also have as a resource a sail-powered Coast Guard training ship, which proves to be an invaluable resource, and the massive forests on the mainland to serve as materials for building more sailing ships. I won't bother to give away too much, as the story continues beyond that single book. In any case -- it is a wonderful read for anyone in this newsgroup. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
In article ,
Jim Stewart wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: [ ... ] Given the difficulties of coming up with anything better, and the relative ease of carburizing common grades of plain, low-carbon steel, making plain carburized steel for tools looks like the best solution by far. The limitation is that, compared to the 1,000F or so maximum operating temperature of HSS, you have to keep maximum temperature at the cutting edge to something on the order of 350 or 400F. At the risk of being redundant, you'd have to have high-speed machines to really need high-speed steel. I haven't read the book, but I'd assume that the isolated place is no longer on the power grid. Read the book! It is an excellent read, and I don't want to give away too much of what is done there. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote: I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from boats and cars. I'll be looking for that book next visit to Borders. Tool steel is merely carbon steel harder than the material it must cut for long enough to do the job at cutting speed that doesn't overheat it. Any steel can be made thus hard in a charcoal fire, case-hardened with bone meal in a muffle. The result can be harder and sharper than HSS tooling. It's LSS, works just fine. High Speed Steel can take more heat than tool steel so it can take higher speed and feed. But high speed is not necessary to make goods. High speed in 1200 BC? How fast could they pedal or crank? |
"Tom" wrote in message ... jim rozen wrote: In article , Ed Huntress says... Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you just change or sharpen tools more often. What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just cook some up on the kitchen stove... Jim A short history of HSS: http://www.tech.plymouth.ac.uk/sme/desnotes/toolst.htm Stellite came quite a time later: http://www.haynesintl.com/Historypage/History.htm Thanks for the links, Tom. Harold |
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Mark Rand" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:43:14 -0500, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Will" wrote in message ... Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil or leaf spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be able to harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs? I don't know the alloys that are used for either one. I happen to remember the axle alloys because I looked it up last year. In any case, valve springs are very small and would be of limited use. I doubt if there's any advantage to using either one for cutting tools, and Rc 56-60 is pretty marginal for cutting steel. It's generally accepted that you need Rc 60 or more. 60 points of carbon isn't enough to do it, unless it's combined with enough chromium to boost the hardening potential of the carbon. I don't think that's the case with suspension-spring steel, although, again, I'd have to look up the alloys used for valve springs. David Forsyth in South Africa has used ball bearing races as a source of metal for cutting tools :- http://iwr.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/lathe/boring.html Bearing races are made from either a carburizing grade (usually SAE 8620) or a through-hardening high-carbon steel (SAE 52100, which is 1.00% chromium and 1% [100 points] carbon). 52100 will harden up nicely for cutting tools. It's a good clean steel and it's quite strong. However, for the record, I doubt if it will cut one bit better or last more than slightly longer than carburized low-carbon steel. Like plain-carbon steels, its tempering temperatures are quite low, so it won't take any heat in cutting without going soft. The chromium content may increase the wear resistance somewhat. -- Ed Huntress I fully agree. Harold |
"Don Foreman" wrote in message ... snip------ Tool steel is merely carbon steel harder than the material it must cut for long enough to do the job at cutting speed that doesn't overheat it. Any steel can be made thus hard in a charcoal fire, case-hardened with bone meal in a muffle. Actually accomplished quite satisfactorily by any source of carbon, it need not be bone meal. In commercial operations, it's often done with atmosphere, simply by providing too much fuel. For pack hardening, carbonized peach pits are often used. The result can be harder and sharper than HSS tooling. It's LSS, works just fine. If you've never tried carbon steel for machining, especially if you're running reasonably modern machines, you'll never know the frustration that comes with its use. Once you're used to the performance level of HSS, it's nearly impossible to revert to lesser cutting tools. It seems so unnatural to cut so slowly------but then perhaps for many of the home shop types, that isn't a problem. Having worked in industry, it drives me nuts! I own a 1-1/8" carbon steel drill, purchased for a buck at a flea market. Absolutely worthless for anything but non-ferrous use. Harold |
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:49:16 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote: If you've never tried carbon steel for machining, especially if you're running reasonably modern machines, you'll never know the frustration that comes with its use. Once you're used to the performance level of HSS, it's nearly impossible to revert to lesser cutting tools. It seems so unnatural to cut so slowly------but then perhaps for many of the home shop types, that isn't a problem. Having worked in industry, it drives me nuts! I own a 1-1/8" carbon steel drill, purchased for a buck at a flea market. Absolutely worthless for anything but non-ferrous use. Right, but man has known how to make carbon steel for hundreds of years, long before machines went any faster than one could turn a crank by hand or with oxen. |
Don Foreman wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner" wrote: I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. SNip I'll be looking for that book next visit to Borders. OK just what is the name of this book? ...lew... |
The one exception to this might be carbon steel hand taps. Since they rarely
get hot, they wear as well as the more expensive HSS ones. Mark "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Mark Rand" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:43:14 -0500, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Will" wrote in message ... Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't the coil or leaf spring most likely be 5160 or something similar? Shouldn't you be able to harden one of them to 56-60 Rc? And how about valve springs? I don't know the alloys that are used for either one. I happen to remember the axle alloys because I looked it up last year. In any case, valve springs are very small and would be of limited use. I doubt if there's any advantage to using either one for cutting tools, and Rc 56-60 is pretty marginal for cutting steel. It's generally accepted that you need Rc 60 or more. 60 points of carbon isn't enough to do it, unless it's combined with enough chromium to boost the hardening potential of the carbon. I don't think that's the case with suspension-spring steel, although, again, I'd have to look up the alloys used for valve springs. David Forsyth in South Africa has used ball bearing races as a source of metal for cutting tools :- http://iwr.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/lathe/boring.html Bearing races are made from either a carburizing grade (usually SAE 8620) or a through-hardening high-carbon steel (SAE 52100, which is 1.00% chromium and 1% [100 points] carbon). 52100 will harden up nicely for cutting tools. It's a good clean steel and it's quite strong. However, for the record, I doubt if it will cut one bit better or last more than slightly longer than carburized low-carbon steel. Like plain-carbon steels, its tempering temperatures are quite low, so it won't take any heat in cutting without going soft. The chromium content may increase the wear resistance somewhat. -- Ed Huntress I fully agree. Harold |
jim rozen wrote:
In article , Ed Huntress says... Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you just change or sharpen tools more often. What about harold's favorite, Stellite? That was around well before HSS was developed, right? Granted you could not just cook some up on the kitchen stove... Jim A short history of HSS: http://www.tech.plymouth.ac.uk/sme/desnotes/toolst.htm Stellite came quite a time later: http://www.haynesintl.com/Historypage/History.htm Tom Tom |
Lew Hartswick wrote:
Don Foreman wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner" wrote: I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. SNip I'll be looking for that book next visit to Borders. OK just what is the name of this book? ...lew... That's Steve Stirling's "Island in the Sea of Time". Most of what Steve writes is good -- although most of it isn't nearly as technically oriented. His real interest is history, especially military history, and it comes out in a lot of alternate universe stories. I had dinner one time with him and Harry Turtledove and we got off on these history and alternate history themes -- and what a rat Roger Zelazny was for not finishing the "Amber" series. It was a fascinating dinner, especially since unbeknownst to Steve and Harry, Roger Zelazny was sitting one table over. If you like "Island", you'd probably also like Eric Flint's "1632", "1633" and "1634" The Galileo Affair" about a West Virginia coal mining town tossed back into Germany in the middle of the 30 Years War. Have you every considered what a modern boring machine would do for the accuracy and power of 17th Century cannon? Or how to build an airplane out of what's just lying around? --RC |
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