Ok, this is going to seem a little strange, because I am losing my property,
and any chances of a garage BUT, I have spent the last 14 years trying to
get someone to answer, what I thought, was a simple question, which is as
follows. I had been considering building a garage, but my problem is I don't
know much about construction practices. So if I were building a pole barn
style garage, would the floor have to be poured first or would it have to be
poured after the wall framing is up? I built a dirt floor pole barn with my
father, and I love my dad dearly, but I hate his building practices! While
building his pole barn, he would cut a bag of cement in half and throw the
half bag (cement, bag and all) into the hole then set the post on it and say
that "the cement with harden after a while" as he burried the pole (which in
this case was a 6X6X16). By the time the sheathing was started on the roof
we found (towards the end of the project) there was a wedge shaped section
of the roof that was off by about a foot and we needed to special cut two
sheets of plywood to correct the hole left in the eaves. Like I say my dad
isn't a good example for constrution, his logic is "Well it's just a barn"
attitude left me with years of question to follow! I have never agreed with
the logic that a Pressure Treated post will last 40 years burried in the
ground, as my pressure treated picnic table that he himself built for me,
fell apart just 8 years after being outside in the weather year after year.
While I feel the floor in this topic would have to be poured first (in my
thinking), then what holds the posts upright in the cement, or for that fact
how do you get the pole brackets to line up with one another correctly, so
your walls are still sqaure with one another? I can only imagine that you
would have to work very quickly to level the concrete, then pop your
brackets in the cement that attach to the end of the poles. All while making
multiple measurements to keep everything square. This to me would seemingly
be very time consuming at best and with only one person working on a 36' x
40' floor (as I don't have many friends thanks in part to my ex wife),
towards the end the cement would have started hardening making the brackets
difficult at best to put in correctly, and level. Though I thank anyone for
shedding a little light on the topic, I have hopes in the coming year I may
be in a better position to use the information, after I move from my NY home
to someplace warmer in climate!

Thanks again, E5

E5I5O wrote:
Ok, this is going to seem a little strange, ...

Right there.

First, the concrete can be done either before or after. I suggest
before. You have better access and it provides a good work surface to work
on when putting the poll barn up. I suggest getting a good size crew to do
the work and have at least one who knows concrete work. Concrete waits for
no man, you need to work it when it is ready. You need to have a little
experience to know when and how long to work it. Books and newsgroups can't
provide the experience. That size pad, takes a lot of work all at once, so
you need a good size crew who have the tools and are ready to go when the
concrete gets there. BTW don't even consider mixing it yourself. It is far
cheaper and much easier to have it delivered.

As for the poll barn, I suggest you find someone who has done it before
and knows how to do it to help you. You are going to need additional hands
anyway. There are just too many little things that done right will make the
job go much better to learn here.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Here is a really nice Do-It-Yourself steel building.
http://www.futuresteel.com/default.htm



On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:54:14 GMT, "E5I5O"
wrote:

Ok, this is going to seem a little strange, because I am losing my property,
and any chances of a garage BUT, I have spent the last 14 years trying to
get someone to answer, what I thought, was a simple question, which is as
follows. I had been considering building a garage, but my problem is I don't
know much about construction practices. So if I were building a pole barn
style garage, would the floor have to be poured first or would it have to be
poured after the wall framing is up? I built a dirt floor pole barn with my
father, and I love my dad dearly, but I hate his building practices! While
building his pole barn, he would cut a bag of cement in half and throw the
half bag (cement, bag and all) into the hole then set the post on it and say
that "the cement with harden after a while" as he burried the pole (which in
this case was a 6X6X16). By the time the sheathing was started on the roof
we found (towards the end of the project) there was a wedge shaped section
of the roof that was off by about a foot and we needed to special cut two
sheets of plywood to correct the hole left in the eaves. Like I say my dad
isn't a good example for constrution, his logic is "Well it's just a barn"
attitude left me with years of question to follow! I have never agreed with
the logic that a Pressure Treated post will last 40 years burried in the
ground, as my pressure treated picnic table that he himself built for me,
fell apart just 8 years after being outside in the weather year after year.
While I feel the floor in this topic would have to be poured first (in my
thinking), then what holds the posts upright in the cement, or for that fact
how do you get the pole brackets to line up with one another correctly, so
your walls are still sqaure with one another? I can only imagine that you
would have to work very quickly to level the concrete, then pop your
brackets in the cement that attach to the end of the poles. All while making
multiple measurements to keep everything square. This to me would seemingly
be very time consuming at best and with only one person working on a 36' x
40' floor (as I don't have many friends thanks in part to my ex wife),
towards the end the cement would have started hardening making the brackets
difficult at best to put in correctly, and level. Though I thank anyone for
shedding a little light on the topic, I have hopes in the coming year I may
be in a better position to use the information, after I move from my NY home
to someplace warmer in climate!

Thanks again, E5

Actually I have been looking into all wood construction as I have been in a
lot of steel buildings, and to say the least I am really not as impressed
with them as a good wooden sheathed/ vinyl siding looks. I feel in
appearance of a steel building next to a home with vinyl siding, in other
words, doesn't tie the two structures together as well, in landscaping
concerns. Other things I have questioned is in steel buildings is cold
transfer, being the material, a thin sheet of steel, to me would tranfer any
heat right through the walls. Having worked in a lot of buildings in the
factories I have worked at, with similar constructed I find at best a steel
building is normally too hot in summer month and too cold in the winter. Not
to mention that with a wood sheathing sides I can wrap the building with a
product like Tyvek to help with the R value of the walls logically. As for
myself I believe firmly that a garage should be climate controlled such as a
house. I consider this due to the facts of storage problems I have currently
in my unheated shed. Most every year almost since owning the property I am
about to lose, I have raced to get my spary paints, adhesive products and
other cold perishable items into my house at the begining of cold months.
Much mind you to the serious displeasure of my now ex wife. Though I will
not argue the construction costs of a steel building being material prices
as they are, I would really have to see a building in steel that would meet
my expectations to date. As my main interests are cars and electronics (with
myself a electronics factory worker as well), I would greatly like to heat
this garage plan I have with convection heated flooring (the tubes would be
laid underneath the flooring and run to a boiler system). I would further
include a zone or two under the makings of a concrete driveway making a lot
of shoveling in winter months almost a thing of the past. I have learned
this from some company walk ways I have worked for. Thank you though for the
info on steel buildings I have checked out the site, and it has a lot of
good information.

Thanks E5
"PJx" wrote in message
...

Here is a really nice Do-It-Yourself steel building.
http://www.futuresteel.com/default.htm



On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:54:14 GMT, "E5I5O"
wrote:

Ok, this is going to seem a little strange, because I am losing my
property,
and any chances of a garage BUT, I have spent the last 14 years trying to
get someone to answer, what I thought, was a simple question, which is as
follows. I had been considering building a garage, but my problem is I
don't
know much about construction practices. So if I were building a pole barn
style garage, would the floor have to be poured first or would it have to
be
poured after the wall framing is up? I built a dirt floor pole barn with
my
father, and I love my dad dearly, but I hate his building practices!
While
building his pole barn, he would cut a bag of cement in half and throw
the
half bag (cement, bag and all) into the hole then set the post on it and
say
that "the cement with harden after a while" as he burried the pole (which
in
this case was a 6X6X16). By the time the sheathing was started on the
roof
we found (towards the end of the project) there was a wedge shaped
section
of the roof that was off by about a foot and we needed to special cut two
sheets of plywood to correct the hole left in the eaves. Like I say my
dad
isn't a good example for constrution, his logic is "Well it's just a
barn"
attitude left me with years of question to follow! I have never agreed
with
the logic that a Pressure Treated post will last 40 years burried in the
ground, as my pressure treated picnic table that he himself built for me,
fell apart just 8 years after being outside in the weather year after
year.
While I feel the floor in this topic would have to be poured first (in my
thinking), then what holds the posts upright in the cement, or for that
fact
how do you get the pole brackets to line up with one another correctly,
so
your walls are still sqaure with one another? I can only imagine that you
would have to work very quickly to level the concrete, then pop your
brackets in the cement that attach to the end of the poles. All while
making
multiple measurements to keep everything square. This to me would
seemingly
be very time consuming at best and with only one person working on a 36'
x
40' floor (as I don't have many friends thanks in part to my ex wife),
towards the end the cement would have started hardening making the
brackets
difficult at best to put in correctly, and level. Though I thank anyone
for
shedding a little light on the topic, I have hopes in the coming year I
may
be in a better position to use the information, after I move from my NY
home
to someplace warmer in climate!

Thanks again, E5

Thank you I will take the advice to mind, but that leaves me with one other
question. If I was to hire a cement company to pour the floor, who would I
have to call to get the pad leveled and the brackets mounted, is there
companies that specialize in this? Like I say I have a few ideas of how I
want this thing built, even though I am very much lacking experience, I do
have a lot of things I feel should be part of ay garage. Such as the type of
heating I would greatly consider having the floor heated with a boiler type
system (convection heating, I believe). Thank you very much for the info,
though I know I lack a lot of true hands on experience. I have considered
ordering in the concrete, and having it pour due to cost issues, also
realising that with the sheer size of this building I would at best run into
too many problems pouring the mix myself as I can't be in two places at once
like my ex wife used to think I could!! LOL But cost is one thing I have
looked at time and time again! The quote I got years ago was $5000 for a pad
this size and included the gravel back fill needed for drainage issues,
which even then I thought was a good value! Though I am able to do as much
of the work myself, and I have a little experience pounding nails and what
not, there is still a lot I feel I couldn't do myself logically. Concrete is
one of those things of course, but I have talked to others that have told me
to pour it myself, and I find cost over-runs to be much higher then it would
if I had it poured. Of course I look at the over all size of the
construction as well and find that the people I have spoke with often shun
my design ideas.

In all I feel that a garage should have an upstairs storage area, using open
rafter designs the type used for apartments in the space. This would allow
for increased storage without shoving things about the normal rafters, or
cluttering the garage area. Too often on a summers day I have drove by
"normal" garage style buildings to find them so littered with junk that the
owners cars have no place else to be but in the driveway. Yet the garage is
so packed the door can't even close exposing quite an eyesore to those
driving by. And being I have known women like my ex wife, who seems to find
a way to purchase ever large yard Christmas orniment on the planet without
concern of where to put it in the off season, I feel strongly about this!
Also in my considerations is doubling the amount of rafters used. Actually
my dad did have this thinking and after talking to a couple contractor
"friends" of mine, it seems to make sense, that the more rafters, the better
the load handling properties of the roof during wintery seasons. Also I feel
the wall height has to be at least 12' tall, to accept a later installed
above ground lift. I am a car guy after all and digging a trench in a lot of
cases just dosen't make any sense, when a post lift can be had for as little
as $2500. And with a lift if a person had to, you could lift one vehicle and
drive something else under it if the need arose. Not to mention that with
12' walls you could logically lift a full size pick up, and have enough room
to work underneath it and not worry about any lighting issues above the
vehicle. Besides going back to the topic of the pit or trench style floor
(like those in Lube places), I have currently a very high water table on my
current property. At about 8 feet I hit water which would mean a trench
would be filled with water at the concrete level (of say roughly 9 feet in
the ground for the two foot of concrete required and one foot of rock
drainage back fill) making for a whole host of drainage problems! Something
my parents, grandparents, and what friends I had at the time, never once
took into consideration! Like I say I don't know as much about construction
but I do look at the logic behind it and understand a lot of rules of thumb
and so on. Well that is kind of the jist of my ideas of a garage, I could go
into my thinking behind windows, and what not in the same structure, but it
is really off topic at this case as the past paragraph has been. Thank you
again for the low down on floors!

Thanks, E5


"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
...
E5I5O wrote:
Ok, this is going to seem a little strange, ...

Right there.

First, the concrete can be done either before or after. I suggest
before. You have better access and it provides a good work surface to
work
on when putting the poll barn up. I suggest getting a good size crew to
do
the work and have at least one who knows concrete work. Concrete waits
for
no man, you need to work it when it is ready. You need to have a little
experience to know when and how long to work it. Books and newsgroups
can't
provide the experience. That size pad, takes a lot of work all at once,
so
you need a good size crew who have the tools and are ready to go when the
concrete gets there. BTW don't even consider mixing it yourself. It is
far
cheaper and much easier to have it delivered.

As for the poll barn, I suggest you find someone who has done it
before
and knows how to do it to help you. You are going to need additional
hands
anyway. There are just too many little things that done right will make
the
job go much better to learn here.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

E5I5O wrote:
Thank you I will take the advice to mind, but that leaves me with one
other question. If I was to hire a cement company to pour the floor,
who would I have to call to get the pad leveled and the brackets
mounted, is there companies that specialize in this? Like I say I
have a few ideas of how I want this thing built, even though I am
very much lacking experience,

They may be willing to recommend someone. if you have ideas but not the
knowledge or experience, then you will need someone to help you out on this
part as well. You may be able to get the forms set ahead of time, but
before you start, run your plan past someone who will be helping out when
the truck gets there, and it would be a good idea to have them come out and
take a look at what you have before the truck gets there. It can be a real
mess if the forms are wrong and you have a full truck ready to pour.


I do have a lot of things I feel should
be part of ay garage. Such as the type of heating I would greatly
consider having the floor heated with a boiler type system
(convection heating, I believe). Thank you very much for the info,
though I know I lack a lot of true hands on experience. I have
considered ordering in the concrete, and having it pour due to cost
issues, also realising that with the sheer size of this building I
would at best run into too many problems pouring the mix myself

Also the materials to mix it yourself are more expensive than having it
delivered, except for very small jobs.

as I
can't be in two places at once like my ex wife used to think I
could!! LOL But cost is one thing I have looked at time and time
again! The quote I got years ago was $5000 for a pad this size and
included the gravel back fill needed for drainage issues, which even
then I thought was a good value! Though I am able to do as much of
the work myself, and I have a little experience pounding nails and
what not, there is still a lot I feel I couldn't do myself logically.
Concrete is one of those things of course, but I have talked to
others that have told me to pour it myself, and I find cost over-runs
to be much higher then it would if I had it poured. Of course I look
at the over all size of the construction as well and find that the
people I have spoke with often shun my design ideas.

In all I feel that a garage should have an upstairs storage area,
using open rafter designs the type used for apartments in the space.
This would allow for increased storage without shoving things about
the normal rafters, or cluttering the garage area. Too often on a
summers day I have drove by "normal" garage style buildings to find
them so littered with junk that the owners cars have no place else to
be but in the driveway. Yet the garage is so packed the door can't
even close exposing quite an eyesore to those driving by. And being I
have known women like my ex wife, who seems to find a way to purchase
ever large yard Christmas orniment on the planet without concern of
where to put it in the off season, I feel strongly about this! Also
in my considerations is doubling the amount of rafters used. Actually
my dad did have this thinking and after talking to a couple
contractor "friends" of mine, it seems to make sense, that the more
rafters, the better the load handling properties of the roof during
wintery seasons. Also I feel the wall height has to be at least 12'
tall, to accept a later installed above ground lift. I am a car guy
after all and digging a trench in a lot of cases just dosen't make
any sense, when a post lift can be had for as little as $2500. And
with a lift if a person had to, you could lift one vehicle and drive
something else under it if the need arose. Not to mention that with
12' walls you could logically lift a full size pick up, and have
enough room to work underneath it and not worry about any lighting
issues above the vehicle. Besides going back to the topic of the pit
or trench style floor (like those in Lube places), I have currently a
very high water table on my current property. At about 8 feet I hit
water which would mean a trench would be filled with water at the
concrete level (of say roughly 9 feet in the ground for the two foot
of concrete required and one foot of rock drainage back fill) making
for a whole host of drainage problems! Something my parents,
grandparents, and what friends I had at the time, never once took
into consideration! Like I say I don't know as much about
construction but I do look at the logic behind it and understand a
lot of rules of thumb and so on. Well that is kind of the jist of my
ideas of a garage, I could go into my thinking behind windows, and
what not in the same structure, but it is really off topic at this
case as the past paragraph has been. Thank you again for the low down
on floors!

Thanks, E5


One more thing. Make sure this structure meets all local codes BEFORE
you start. If not you may find yourself tearing it down. In some areas
there are few if any code or inspections, but be sure to have someone who
knows construction go over any self made plans. An error can end up with a
pile of lumber around your car after the first good wind.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

In article ,
"E5I5O" wrote:

Actually I have been looking into all wood construction as I have been in a
lot of steel buildings, and to say the least I am really not as impressed
with them as a good wooden sheathed/ vinyl siding looks. I feel in
appearance of a steel building next to a home with vinyl siding, in other
words, doesn't tie the two structures together as well, in landscaping
concerns. Other things I have questioned is in steel buildings is cold
transfer, being the material, a thin sheet of steel, to me would tranfer any
heat right through the walls. Having worked in a lot of buildings in the
factories I have worked at, with similar constructed I find at best a steel
building is normally too hot in summer month and too cold in the winter. Not
to mention that with a wood sheathing sides I can wrap the building with a
product like Tyvek to help with the R value of the walls logically. As for
myself I believe firmly that a garage should be climate controlled such as a
house. I consider this due to the facts of storage problems I have currently
in my unheated shed. Most every year almost since owning the property I am
about to lose, I have raced to get my spary paints, adhesive products and
other cold perishable items into my house at the begining of cold months.
Much mind you to the serious displeasure of my now ex wife. Though I will
not argue the construction costs of a steel building being material prices
as they are, I would really have to see a building in steel that would meet
my expectations to date. As my main interests are cars and electronics (with
myself a electronics factory worker as well), I would greatly like to heat
this garage plan I have with convection heated flooring (the tubes would be
laid underneath the flooring and run to a boiler system). I would further
include a zone or two under the makings of a concrete driveway making a lot
of shoveling in winter months almost a thing of the past. I have learned
this from some company walk ways I have worked for. Thank you though for the
info on steel buildings I have checked out the site, and it has a lot of
good information.

Thanks E5

You've got a bit of a point -- to a point, IMO -- with how well a steel
building theoretically "ties in" with an adjacent wood building. But I
think your thinking has perhaps been off-colored by looking only at what
others have put up without regard to surroundings. Some people aren't
design-oriented enough for eye candy to be a major concern, others
didn't know from the start that there certainly must be a mess of things
you can do to either minimize or completely eliminate the "steel box"
look, and others quite frankly really don't give a ****.

I can't speak for your dad's construction expertise, but I think he's
correct in one respect: It's just a *garage*, dude. Maybe my reading
skills are off today, but I get the impression from your posts that
you're looking at this structure too much as if it was a house, not an
outbuilding. Youre 100% right in insisting that it be built as soundly
as your budget allows, but sheesh -- seems to me like you're prone to
insisting on 5-star hotel with butlered room service, Italian marble
floors and gold-plated bathtub faucets when all you really *need* is a
clean but comfortable Motel 6. The factory environments you've been
exposed to are not a real way to gauge it, because, well, industrial
uses/factors are a lot different than residential ones -- and really,
when has anyone ever run across a factory owner who really gives a
genuine **** about whether the hired help is too hot or too cold?
Climate control? Do you really spend hours on end in there every single
day (like a professional wood or metal shop) to actually *need* it to be
enough of a concern? Heating elements under the driveway? Jeez, how many
blizzards a year do you have -- and if big snow is a concern, well,
that's why Honda makes a very dependable and highly affordable line of
quality snowblowers. I live in Chicago and can count on one hand with a
finger or two left over the number of times a year I have to break out
the blower, even during the bad winters. As for cars in the garage, some
gearheads will probably argue that every car (especially the really
expensive, high performance ones) deserves the most TLC possible, but
for something as regular as the common family sedan, a garage with some
fairly decent insulation to help during the sub-zero months is pretty
much perfectly acceptable.

All in all, I think you'd be better off all in all by building a good,
solid structure for the least money available and spend the rest on
making it have less of a warehouse look to it so it's really appealing
and attractive (sheathing materials, landscaping, etc.) for those who
looking at it all the time from the outside. I'm positive there's an
answer there to accomplish most if not all of what you want without
insisting on going broke in the process.

AJS

No actually my concern lies in the deeper area of cost heating later down
the road. I don't want to put heat to a structure in all honesty for who
knows how many months that would realistically be compared to leaving the
overhead doors open year round. My dad is a good guy but takes too many
short cuts, or over builds stuff as he works! I am not saying that is wrong
for him, but I want to heat this thing! Actually in my field of work, which
is electronics Temp and Humidity is very important. I have worked in wood
and steel shops in the past as well, but in electronics certain heat ranges
and humidity factors are looked at every single day and they have equipment
in such companies that do just that! Of course I really don't want to be so
strict to that but in my mind I am going to spend a lot of time in a garage!
I have business ideas I need the space to work on, I have car products such
as Armor All, spray paint and what not, which can freeze that will be stored
logically in the garage, then I do a lot of my own auto service work (being
trained in the field) and feel having to go out fire up the wood stove
waiting for hours to get the heat going to go out to work is nonsense! I
would rather just have one steady heat source that is on in the winter
months without the hassle and mess of wood or coal! I would like to be able
to paint something without fear of dust produced by these heat sources
ruining something simple like an intake manifold I have spent hours working
on to get clean! Forced air is too costly with heating oil costs as they are
and propane is up there as I use that in my home. Not to mention the air
blowing stirs up too much stuff.

Ok heating elements under the driveway, yeah it is out there a little, but
consider storing your Honda snowblower, repairs to it over a given time
period, and the actually cost the it to begin with! Not everybody makes 5
digit salaries! No offence but hell I only clear on average (currently) ten
thousand a year to begin with! After talking to a close personal friend
having built his own house, he installed this same system in his basement
during construction to a cost of $1500. Not into the driveway mind you, but
the boiler system I referred to. He by trade is a welder, and fitting metal
he ran the manifold system to his boiler. After he showed me the system I
asked him if it would hurt anything it the system was installed under a
driveway. At first he not to unlike you, questioned it. A few months after
winter had started him and I ran into each other at the local store and he
told me that my idea was sound! Further he was upset he didn't think of it
first, here in our New York home, he went on the state that it would have
cost him about $500 more to install the system in the driveway if he had
poured the floor and the driveway at the same time and would have added more
then one time he wouldn't of had to go out and shovel (or actually snowblow
as he owns a snowblower) his driveway. He did say that he had a extra run in
his manifold to do just what I had said and was going to look at installing
the system this spring. Of course the snowblower which I will not knock in
my reality isn't practical for a couple of reasons, first as thing are what
they are I have no place to store it as of this writing. Yeah I could leave
in my yard year in and out like my one tractor as it is too big to fit in my
20 X 24 shed, covering it every year with plastic, to find mice have chewed
the insulation of the plug wires (which has happened to my tractor) off. But
the shed I currently own is divided with one section big enough for my
tools, supplies and lawn mower, and the other hold my camping gear, holiday
decorations and so on. I am by no means knocking what you say, but I feel
storage as I look at it is a price you have to pay honestly!

Actually I like a lot of what you said, as it makes a lot of sense, but in
all I am not as needed as you may think. My dad's practice is basically "who
cares if the top of your one corner wall is six inches from being square as
the building is just a garage!" I am not sure about you, but I really don't
think all the insulation in the world will be worth anything to a building
that isn't square to begin with! Extra gaps logically will cause more warm
air to seep out and cold air to get in. I could further demonstrate what I
mean by my dad's practices, by my shed. He took this same "it's just a shed"
approach to the project the kit came from Grossman's and seemed even with my
lack of construction experience to be straight forward. But when everything
was done while I was learning per his teaching the one large barn style door
was 4" short then the other door on it leaving a huge gap along the bottom.
My lucky stars the thing wasn't built to grade as my yard is flooded every
spring and I would hate to have to de- mud the building if it were to grade.
But again my father's words echo "It's just a shed!" And to that it is just
a shed, I don't have to heat it, I don't have to spend hours out there
working on my car, I don't have to worry about, but my garage I will have to
address these problems, more so in the case of a house without a basement or
other large storage area like I have currently. In all I would like to have
a garage that is big enough that I can maintain three vehicles (one of which
I am planning on building before I die), and still have my daily drivers
safe and warm for the cold weather. I have been around a lot of garages in
my years, And has I have said I have spend many a trip around my local areas
looking at peoples homes as I drive by noticing garages filled with stuff,
that the cars themselves can fit into. I feel storage is an issue, that
seriously is never looked at in garages. My father's basement one car garage
isn't tall enough for his truck to fit in and being the pack rat that he is
(have I mention that I love my dad dearly, he is kind of like Chevy Chase),
can even get his car n his garage either! Even my ex wife's father had his
garage packed with all sorts of "useful" stuff, like ever one of his kids
fake Christmas trees making getting things out the rafters a realy joy when
he needed something! I had also consider and get this putting windows in my
garage....why you may ask? For two reasons, first to allow air to pass throw
the building for ventilation and secondly for light, to help cut lighting
costs in the summer months, and even winter months. Everybody I have talked
to thinks I crazy with that one too!

Sincerely, E5


"AJScott" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"E5I5O" wrote:

Actually I have been looking into all wood construction as I have been
in a
lot of steel buildings, and to say the least I am really not as
impressed
with them as a good wooden sheathed/ vinyl siding looks. I feel in
appearance of a steel building next to a home with vinyl siding, in
other
words, doesn't tie the two structures together as well, in landscaping
concerns. Other things I have questioned is in steel buildings is cold
transfer, being the material, a thin sheet of steel, to me would tranfer
any
heat right through the walls. Having worked in a lot of buildings in the
factories I have worked at, with similar constructed I find at best a
steel
building is normally too hot in summer month and too cold in the winter.
Not
to mention that with a wood sheathing sides I can wrap the building with
a
product like Tyvek to help with the R value of the walls logically. As
for
myself I believe firmly that a garage should be climate controlled such
as a
house. I consider this due to the facts of storage problems I have
currently
in my unheated shed. Most every year almost since owning the property I
am
about to lose, I have raced to get my spary paints, adhesive products
and
other cold perishable items into my house at the begining of cold
months.
Much mind you to the serious displeasure of my now ex wife. Though I
will
not argue the construction costs of a steel building being material
prices
as they are, I would really have to see a building in steel that would
meet
my expectations to date. As my main interests are cars and electronics
(with
myself a electronics factory worker as well), I would greatly like to
heat
this garage plan I have with convection heated flooring (the tubes would
be
laid underneath the flooring and run to a boiler system). I would
further
include a zone or two under the makings of a concrete driveway making a
lot
of shoveling in winter months almost a thing of the past. I have learned
this from some company walk ways I have worked for. Thank you though for
the
info on steel buildings I have checked out the site, and it has a lot of
good information.

Thanks E5

You've got a bit of a point -- to a point, IMO -- with how well a steel
building theoretically "ties in" with an adjacent wood building. But I
think your thinking has perhaps been off-colored by looking only at what
others have put up without regard to surroundings. Some people aren't
design-oriented enough for eye candy to be a major concern, others
didn't know from the start that there certainly must be a mess of things
you can do to either minimize or completely eliminate the "steel box"
look, and others quite frankly really don't give a ****.

I can't speak for your dad's construction expertise, but I think he's
correct in one respect: It's just a *garage*, dude. Maybe my reading
skills are off today, but I get the impression from your posts that
you're looking at this structure too much as if it was a house, not an
outbuilding. Youre 100% right in insisting that it be built as soundly
as your budget allows, but sheesh -- seems to me like you're prone to
insisting on 5-star hotel with butlered room service, Italian marble
floors and gold-plated bathtub faucets when all you really *need* is a
clean but comfortable Motel 6. The factory environments you've been
exposed to are not a real way to gauge it, because, well, industrial
uses/factors are a lot different than residential ones -- and really,
when has anyone ever run across a factory owner who really gives a
genuine **** about whether the hired help is too hot or too cold?
Climate control? Do you really spend hours on end in there every single
day (like a professional wood or metal shop) to actually *need* it to be
enough of a concern? Heating elements under the driveway? Jeez, how many
blizzards a year do you have -- and if big snow is a concern, well,
that's why Honda makes a very dependable and highly affordable line of
quality snowblowers. I live in Chicago and can count on one hand with a
finger or two left over the number of times a year I have to break out
the blower, even during the bad winters. As for cars in the garage, some
gearheads will probably argue that every car (especially the really
expensive, high performance ones) deserves the most TLC possible, but
for something as regular as the common family sedan, a garage with some
fairly decent insulation to help during the sub-zero months is pretty
much perfectly acceptable.

All in all, I think you'd be better off all in all by building a good,
solid structure for the least money available and spend the rest on
making it have less of a warehouse look to it so it's really appealing
and attractive (sheathing materials, landscaping, etc.) for those who
looking at it all the time from the outside. I'm positive there's an
answer there to accomplish most if not all of what you want without
insisting on going broke in the process.

AJS

In article ,
"E5I5O" wrote:

No actually my concern lies in the deeper area of cost heating later down
the road. I don't want to put heat to a structure in all honesty for who
knows how many months that would realistically be compared to leaving the
overhead doors open year round. My dad is a good guy but takes too many
short cuts, or over builds stuff as he works! I am not saying that is wrong
for him, but I want to heat this thing! Actually in my field of work, which
is electronics Temp and Humidity is very important. I have worked in wood
and steel shops in the past as well, but in electronics certain heat ranges
and humidity factors are looked at every single day and they have equipment
in such companies that do just that! Of course I really don't want to be so
strict to that but in my mind I am going to spend a lot of time in a garage!
I have business ideas I need the space to work on, I have car products such
as Armor All, spray paint and what not, which can freeze that will be stored
logically in the garage, then I do a lot of my own auto service work (being
trained in the field) and feel having to go out fire up the wood stove
waiting for hours to get the heat going to go out to work is nonsense! I
would rather just have one steady heat source that is on in the winter
months without the hassle and mess of wood or coal! I would like to be able
to paint something without fear of dust produced by these heat sources
ruining something simple like an intake manifold I have spent hours working
on to get clean! Forced air is too costly with heating oil costs as they are
and propane is up there as I use that in my home. Not to mention the air
blowing stirs up too much stuff.

Ok heating elements under the driveway, yeah it is out there a little, but
consider storing your Honda snowblower, repairs to it over a given time
period, and the actually cost the it to begin with! Not everybody makes 5
digit salaries! No offence but hell I only clear on average (currently) ten
thousand a year to begin with! After talking to a close personal friend
having built his own house, he installed this same system in his basement
during construction to a cost of $1500. Not into the driveway mind you, but
the boiler system I referred to. He by trade is a welder, and fitting metal
he ran the manifold system to his boiler. After he showed me the system I
asked him if it would hurt anything it the system was installed under a
driveway. At first he not to unlike you, questioned it. A few months after
winter had started him and I ran into each other at the local store and he
told me that my idea was sound! Further he was upset he didn't think of it
first, here in our New York home, he went on the state that it would have
cost him about $500 more to install the system in the driveway if he had
poured the floor and the driveway at the same time and would have added more
then one time he wouldn't of had to go out and shovel (or actually snowblow
as he owns a snowblower) his driveway. He did say that he had a extra run in
his manifold to do just what I had said and was going to look at installing
the system this spring. Of course the snowblower which I will not knock in
my reality isn't practical for a couple of reasons, first as thing are what
they are I have no place to store it as of this writing. Yeah I could leave
in my yard year in and out like my one tractor as it is too big to fit in my
20 X 24 shed, covering it every year with plastic, to find mice have chewed
the insulation of the plug wires (which has happened to my tractor) off. But
the shed I currently own is divided with one section big enough for my
tools, supplies and lawn mower, and the other hold my camping gear, holiday
decorations and so on. I am by no means knocking what you say, but I feel
storage as I look at it is a price you have to pay honestly!

Actually I like a lot of what you said, as it makes a lot of sense, but in
all I am not as needed as you may think. My dad's practice is basically "who
cares if the top of your one corner wall is six inches from being square as
the building is just a garage!" I am not sure about you, but I really don't
think all the insulation in the world will be worth anything to a building
that isn't square to begin with! Extra gaps logically will cause more warm
air to seep out and cold air to get in. I could further demonstrate what I
mean by my dad's practices, by my shed. He took this same "it's just a shed"
approach to the project the kit came from Grossman's and seemed even with my
lack of construction experience to be straight forward. But when everything
was done while I was learning per his teaching the one large barn style door
was 4" short then the other door on it leaving a huge gap along the bottom.
My lucky stars the thing wasn't built to grade as my yard is flooded every
spring and I would hate to have to de- mud the building if it were to grade.
But again my father's words echo "It's just a shed!" And to that it is just
a shed, I don't have to heat it, I don't have to spend hours out there
working on my car, I don't have to worry about, but my garage I will have to
address these problems, more so in the case of a house without a basement or
other large storage area like I have currently. In all I would like to have
a garage that is big enough that I can maintain three vehicles (one of which
I am planning on building before I die), and still have my daily drivers
safe and warm for the cold weather. I have been around a lot of garages in
my years, And has I have said I have spend many a trip around my local areas
looking at peoples homes as I drive by noticing garages filled with stuff,
that the cars themselves can fit into. I feel storage is an issue, that
seriously is never looked at in garages. My father's basement one car garage
isn't tall enough for his truck to fit in and being the pack rat that he is
(have I mention that I love my dad dearly, he is kind of like Chevy Chase),
can even get his car n his garage either! Even my ex wife's father had his
garage packed with all sorts of "useful" stuff, like ever one of his kids
fake Christmas trees making getting things out the rafters a realy joy when
he needed something! I had also consider and get this putting windows in my
garage....why you may ask? For two reasons, first to allow air to pass throw
the building for ventilation and secondly for light, to help cut lighting
costs in the summer months, and even winter months. Everybody I have talked
to thinks I crazy with that one too!

Sincerely, E5

Nah, not many downsides to having more than one window in a garage.
Other than maybe giving would-be burglars a better outside view of all
the stuff you have in there to steal, LOL.

Like you, I can¹t abide by cut-rate construction practices if the
structure itself suffers somehow (and in your defense, ****ed up is
****ed up; doors should fit and be cut right, for cripe sake), but your
dad¹s garage/shed isn¹t really in the same league as what you want a
garage for. And OK, now you¹re being a lot clearer on the reason why
climate control year-round is such an important issue to you. Before, I
was thinking you just wanted to give the family car or dog a warmer
place to park for the night, or were just an odd sort. But even there, I
still don¹t quite understand your personal reason for dismissing metal
outright because, well, that seems to me to be one of the reasons why
God invented insulation and different kinds of exterior finishing
materials in the first place. After all, there are thousands of people
across the nation living all toasty warm and nicely cool in steel
houses. Matter of fact, I¹ve seen two steel houses, and I wouldn¹t have
guessed they were steel. The exteriors look as normal as the other
surrounding houses made from traditional building materials. Just
because the bones are steel doesn¹t mean the entire place has to be,
too. So really, if steel gets you more bang for the same buck --
especially for someone on a really limited income -- it¹s certainly
worth considering , and then spending the savings on incredibly good
insulation measures and on the curb appeal of the building¹s exterior
and the landscaping surrounding it. With a little thought and ³what if²
creativity, you¹d be amazed at how many regular-homeowner people could
end up making an igloo look pretty tits.

AJS

Thank AJ for the reply, But let me explain the reasons a little clearer this
time why I don't care for steel buildings as they are. My first concern is
"the look" taking my current home which I am selling here soon! I had looked
into steel building originally (roughly 10 years ago), and found garage
plans the more likely looked as though I was housing aircraft (see
http://www.futuresteel.com/default.htm). The first problem as I said was
looks, and with the looks of these style buildings it would have looked very
out of place with that of the vinyl siding on my clay colored home. Of
course to these garages though cheap to construct, easy to build lack the
real storage area I need, but hold that thought for now! Of course my second
choice in a steel building was the as I call them "BIG BOX" type. This are
the same buildings you see used as factory buildings, while they offer me
enough space, cause I have to have my elbow room (lol), they really look out
of place sitting next to a house on the same property!

My second issue is something that not a lot of people really think about,
and that is heat transfer! Now I kind of have a little bird here! At the
last company I was working for I became friends with the building
maintenance guys, these are the two guys in charge of fixing, maintaining
and other issues with this factory building. While talking to the one guy
about the building the garage, I told him that I had looked at the steel
buildings, and he agreed that the bang for the buck was a huge factor. But
as we talked he pointed out issues about heat transfer I had never thought
of! Being this building was and still is climate controlled, he told me to
pay close attention to the structure over the months. I began quickly seeing
his point, during the colder months, one could see the upright support beams
from outside the building, as the steel between the beams became warmer the
areas where the beams where darkened. This was true in the summer months
though in reverse, giving the whole structure this kind of weird circus tent
effect. Remember this building is heavily insulated as well, due to the
production of electronics. His experience in why this happens was that the
beams are exposed to the conditions both inside the building and outside,
and heat or cold is allowed to transfer to the outdoors depending on the
time of year. Which kind of makes sense in a way. Though he continued to say
that if the frame was wood constructed then skinned in steel it would limit
the amount of heat being transferred. Of course then he stated that in a
normal garage you have the option of using Tyvek or some other vapor barrier
product to wrap the building, that was seldom used in steel buildings, as
the steel is not sheathed and allows small cracks in the skin during the
temperature changes. All of which makes a lot of sense when I stopped to
think about it. Tyvek he and a few others helps increase the "R" value of
the over all structure from things I have read and people I have spoke with
which when in heating of any kind building is important. The short end of
this, is in reality it will be a garage, BUT if I am going to heat it I have
to understand the logic of heating this thing without costing millions down
the road. In certain respects if the steel to steel contact in this type of
building allows transfer of heat and cold easier then a wood frame
structure, again, it is like having huge doors open in my opinion all year
long. It isn't logically as though I am running.a large business and can
over look the heating and cooling costs of the structure, it actually works
out again to understanding thermal mechanics, to make the building cost
effective in the long haul. While I am not be any means perfect, nor do I
feel any building can be constructed so tightly as to be heated by a match.
Even a good house as a slight draft to it, but I think a draft is one thing
that is easily overcome as opposed to out of control heating costs in the
future.

Third on my list of why I don't care for steel buildings, many, even in this
newsgroup would say the cost of steel is cheaper then wood construction, and
for the most part it really is. I really don't want to argue that point. But
going back a couple of posts before hand, I want to include an upstairs
storage area in the building. In wood construction it is actually cheaper to
purchase the attic space trusses pre manufactured then hire a few steel
workers to come in and weld the "I" beans required for the same thing in a
steel building. With that in mind the cost of construct sharply spikes,
making a steel building more expensive. As I said in prior posts I have a
thing about storage, I am a firm believer in everything has its place, and
with my budgets the few extra dollars on the trusses makes more sense in
creating a space that can be greatly used for a variety of things stored.
Going back to the beginning of this post I mentioned the "hanger" style
building that PJx posted a shortcut for. In this building the heat transfer
issue is noticeable, and then there is the storage aspect of the building.
Sure if I was just going to store a car in there, had no intention of
working on anything in the building, and fill it with a bunch of stuff I
need stored, the small size would be great. Actually it all reminds me of a
few years back in a family outing, my parents, my wife (now ex), and my (at
the time 78 year old) grandmother were all here for a party we were having
for my daughter when suddenly my Dad brought up the subject of a garage. Of
course this has been a sore subject around me as the property I am now
selling I have owned for 14 years, and at the time was 10 years of
ownership. My grandmother suggested I build another shed, my father on the
other hand spoke of a garage, failed as my grandmother to see a serious need
for the added storage combined with cost effectiveness. Both talked as I sat
around saying nothing, completely numb to the conversation at hand. In my
thinking after talking to another friend, who just happens to have a two car
garage of the type in my specs, he found that the cost was far cheaper to
build one structure with both the added storage space and the garage at once
in one nice tidy package. Being I only have an acre and a half of land with
only a third of that I can actually use for building (due to a large two
pronged creek behind my house, and a large slope that covers my leech
field), it limits me to the area I had in mind to one building and not a
compound of sheds and outbuildings that my grandmother thinks I should have.
Not to mention code limitations I have to meet wouldn't allow too many
buildings on the property in all honesty, being the waterway is protected
(it is considered a fish stream, though in the summer months it is dry, go
figure huh?) My backyard has one space that is partly flat but during heavy
rains or during spring snow run off the space is under rushing water to a
depth of about two feet, so that is out.

Lastly is noise issues. Ok here is where things get a little weird in my
thinking, after all I listen to heavy metal, I love loud motorcycles and
cars that rumble to life, but I hate noise, go figure huh? Actually the
noise I am talking about is two common areas, first natural. I have been in
a lot of steel buildings, factories, outbuildings and such! I have noticed
that a rainstorm can be quite bothersome while trying to work in these
structures. Raindrops seem to pound the snot out of these buildings and not
to mention over the past few years hailstorms have been sweeping through
upstate New York quite a bit. The effects of hail on steel is never good to
begin with and I really have to say standing in a building like this during
those storms are a little unnerving to say the least! Not that I am afraid
of storms, cause I am the type to turn out the lights during a thunderstorm
to watch the lightening strikes! But in most all the buildings I have been
in during the stormy seasons shingled roofs seemingly dampen the sound of
these storms. The other noise is traffic. I live on a main road currently,
and would have to say that the echoes in a steel building are kind of cool
and haunting, but to listen to that while I am building a car day in and day
out, would seem to get on my nerves after a while. The traffic patterns on
the road I live on ranges from those guys in the who own Corvettes and don't
mind blasting past my house at 90 in the summer, to tractor trailers
rumbling by, to kids in the Hondas that have the pumping, thumping stereos
you can hear a mile before they get here. Further the dump trucks from the
gravel place down the road, all within 120' of my house frontage, at just
slight (I'd roughly say) 4' above my house (as my driveway and front yard
are lower then the road surface). Of course to I am not sure if there would
be a difference in sound pollution given the fact that my current home is in
a tight valley as opposed to on a hillside or hill top or flat land. In
other words to giving you and idea of how close things are to my house The
back half (west side) of my property is at almost level in height with my
roof line as it is on the hill behind my house on the other side of the
second creek. To the north I have roughly thirty feet of space before a
bunch of large pine trees separate my neighbors yard from my own. To the
east across the road I have another large hill with one neighbor's house I
would say 600 feet away and at least 200 feet higher due to the grade then
my own home. And to the south opens up the further you go to flat land as
the valley widens. At 9 AM I finally get full sun exposure to my property
and even in summer months with a sunset at 9 PM, my little strip of land is
in the shadow of the hill behind me at 6:00 PM. I compare a lot of my
property as living at the bottom of the Grand Canyon thought the walls are
not near as deep, nor as rigid. But it does allow for a lot of sound to echo
through it. In all I try to think of what is the best approach to these
problems, and build within the things I have to accept from nature, my
budget and the law. All things as they are though it is good talking to you
and thank you for your input!

Sincerely, E5


"AJScott" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"E5I5O" wrote:

No actually my concern lies in the deeper area of cost heating later
down
the road. I don't want to put heat to a structure in all honesty for who
knows how many months that would realistically be compared to leaving
the
overhead doors open year round. My dad is a good guy but takes too many
short cuts, or over builds stuff as he works! I am not saying that is
wrong
for him, but I want to heat this thing! Actually in my field of work,
which
is electronics Temp and Humidity is very important. I have worked in
wood
and steel shops in the past as well, but in electronics certain heat
ranges
and humidity factors are looked at every single day and they have
equipment
in such companies that do just that! Of course I really don't want to be
so
strict to that but in my mind I am going to spend a lot of time in a
garage!
I have business ideas I need the space to work on, I have car products
such
as Armor All, spray paint and what not, which can freeze that will be
stored
logically in the garage, then I do a lot of my own auto service work
(being
trained in the field) and feel having to go out fire up the wood stove
waiting for hours to get the heat going to go out to work is nonsense! I
would rather just have one steady heat source that is on in the winter
months without the hassle and mess of wood or coal! I would like to be
able
to paint something without fear of dust produced by these heat sources
ruining something simple like an intake manifold I have spent hours
working
on to get clean! Forced air is too costly with heating oil costs as they
are
and propane is up there as I use that in my home. Not to mention the air
blowing stirs up too much stuff.

Ok heating elements under the driveway, yeah it is out there a little,
but
consider storing your Honda snowblower, repairs to it over a given time
period, and the actually cost the it to begin with! Not everybody makes
5
digit salaries! No offence but hell I only clear on average (currently)
ten
thousand a year to begin with! After talking to a close personal friend
having built his own house, he installed this same system in his
basement
during construction to a cost of $1500. Not into the driveway mind you,
but
the boiler system I referred to. He by trade is a welder, and fitting
metal
he ran the manifold system to his boiler. After he showed me the system
I
asked him if it would hurt anything it the system was installed under a
driveway. At first he not to unlike you, questioned it. A few months
after
winter had started him and I ran into each other at the local store and
he
told me that my idea was sound! Further he was upset he didn't think of
it
first, here in our New York home, he went on the state that it would
have
cost him about $500 more to install the system in the driveway if he had
poured the floor and the driveway at the same time and would have added
more
then one time he wouldn't of had to go out and shovel (or actually
snowblow
as he owns a snowblower) his driveway. He did say that he had a extra
run in
his manifold to do just what I had said and was going to look at
installing
the system this spring. Of course the snowblower which I will not knock
in
my reality isn't practical for a couple of reasons, first as thing are
what
they are I have no place to store it as of this writing. Yeah I could
leave
in my yard year in and out like my one tractor as it is too big to fit
in my
20 X 24 shed, covering it every year with plastic, to find mice have
chewed
the insulation of the plug wires (which has happened to my tractor) off.
But
the shed I currently own is divided with one section big enough for my
tools, supplies and lawn mower, and the other hold my camping gear,
holiday
decorations and so on. I am by no means knocking what you say, but I
feel
storage as I look at it is a price you have to pay honestly!

Actually I like a lot of what you said, as it makes a lot of sense, but
in
all I am not as needed as you may think. My dad's practice is basically
"who
cares if the top of your one corner wall is six inches from being square
as
the building is just a garage!" I am not sure about you, but I really
don't
think all the insulation in the world will be worth anything to a
building
that isn't square to begin with! Extra gaps logically will cause more
warm
air to seep out and cold air to get in. I could further demonstrate what
I
mean by my dad's practices, by my shed. He took this same "it's just a
shed"
approach to the project the kit came from Grossman's and seemed even
with my
lack of construction experience to be straight forward. But when
everything
was done while I was learning per his teaching the one large barn style
door
was 4" short then the other door on it leaving a huge gap along the
bottom.
My lucky stars the thing wasn't built to grade as my yard is flooded
every
spring and I would hate to have to de- mud the building if it were to
grade.
But again my father's words echo "It's just a shed!" And to that it is
just
a shed, I don't have to heat it, I don't have to spend hours out there
working on my car, I don't have to worry about, but my garage I will
have to
address these problems, more so in the case of a house without a
basement or
other large storage area like I have currently. In all I would like to
have
a garage that is big enough that I can maintain three vehicles (one of
which
I am planning on building before I die), and still have my daily drivers
safe and warm for the cold weather. I have been around a lot of garages
in
my years, And has I have said I have spend many a trip around my local
areas
looking at peoples homes as I drive by noticing garages filled with
stuff,
that the cars themselves can fit into. I feel storage is an issue, that
seriously is never looked at in garages. My father's basement one car
garage
isn't tall enough for his truck to fit in and being the pack rat that he
is
(have I mention that I love my dad dearly, he is kind of like Chevy
Chase),
can even get his car n his garage either! Even my ex wife's father had
his
garage packed with all sorts of "useful" stuff, like ever one of his
kids
fake Christmas trees making getting things out the rafters a realy joy
when
he needed something! I had also consider and get this putting windows in
my
garage....why you may ask? For two reasons, first to allow air to pass
throw
the building for ventilation and secondly for light, to help cut
lighting
costs in the summer months, and even winter months. Everybody I have
talked
to thinks I crazy with that one too!

Sincerely, E5

Nah, not many downsides to having more than one window in a garage.
Other than maybe giving would-be burglars a better outside view of all
the stuff you have in there to steal, LOL.

Like you, I can¹t abide by cut-rate construction practices if the
structure itself suffers somehow (and in your defense, ****ed up is
****ed up; doors should fit and be cut right, for cripe sake), but your
dad¹s garage/shed isn¹t really in the same league as what you want a
garage for. And OK, now you¹re being a lot clearer on the reason why
climate control year-round is such an important issue to you. Before, I
was thinking you just wanted to give the family car or dog a warmer
place to park for the night, or were just an odd sort. But even there, I
still don¹t quite understand your personal reason for dismissing metal
outright because, well, that seems to me to be one of the reasons why
God invented insulation and different kinds of exterior finishing
materials in the first place. After all, there are thousands of people
across the nation living all toasty warm and nicely cool in steel
houses. Matter of fact, I¹ve seen two steel houses, and I wouldn¹t have
guessed they were steel. The exteriors look as normal as the other
surrounding houses made from traditional building materials. Just
because the bones are steel doesn¹t mean the entire place has to be,
too. So really, if steel gets you more bang for the same buck --
especially for someone on a really limited income -- it¹s certainly
worth considering , and then spending the savings on incredibly good
insulation measures and on the curb appeal of the building¹s exterior
and the landscaping surrounding it. With a little thought and ³what if²
creativity, you¹d be amazed at how many regular-homeowner people could
end up making an igloo look pretty tits.

AJS