I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. com...
I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes!
One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel
from
boats and cars.

Carburize it and keep cutting speeds very low, like they did a little over a
century ago, before high-speed steel was developed.

--
Ed Huntress

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

Axles

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit,
understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into
an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes!
One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting
tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel
from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

Axles

Why?

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket
getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of
time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a
bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize
the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and
trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the
finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone
with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable
tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

Axles

Why?

Source of tungston and chrome.
--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:35:16 GMT, Steve Austin
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket
getting transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of
time) The residence have to gear their technology back quite a
bit, understandably. One of the first things they do is organize
the hobby machinists into an industry to produce necessities and
trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One big problem looming is the
finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools. How would someone
with such limited resources make small quantities of serviceable
tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


Burnt out light bulbs and bumpers from old American cars?

Axles

Why?

Source of tungston and chrome.

Most production car axles were made of 1040 until 20 years ago; 1050 today.
When 1040 was the standard, 4140 was used for high-performance axles. Today,
1541 is used for high-performance axles. Race cars use other grades,
including chrome-vanadium types. None of them contain enough carbon to
harden over Rc 45 or so at the max. These grades make great hammer heads but
they can't be hardened enough for metalcutting tools.

No tungsten. And you'd need a hell of a lot of lightbulbs to get it. g The
flash chrome on bumpers would require a lot of stripping to get enough to do
any good, and chrome doesn't make HSS. You need tungsten or molybdenum.

In any case, you'd face quite a trick to make a HSS alloy without some fancy
technology.

Until HSS steel was developed, high-carbon steel (Rc 60 - 65) was used for
cutting tools. It works OK. You just have to keep speeds 'way down so you
don't wreck the hardness. It doesn't wear as well as HSS, either. So, you
just change or sharpen tools more often.

You can carburize low-carbon steel in a charcoal grill with a bellows for
blast. You need a boat (sheet steel, or local clay) or a good carbon pack to
keep the blast from decarburizing the steel. Bone charcoal makes a good
carburizing compound. So, you have to kill something to get some bones. d8-)

There doubtless is some high-carbon steel in cars, but I don't know where.
Shock absorbers usually use the same grades as axles. Maybe pushrods or
lifters. Valves are made from dandy steel, but I don't think they're
sufficiently hardenable, either.

--
Ed Huntress

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. com...
I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes!
One big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting
tools. How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities
of serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel
from boats and cars.

Thats pretty much the bronze age.
Since you like to read, your answer is in "The Mysterious Island" by Jules
Verne. Which is something every high-school age male should read anyway.

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.


You piqued my interest, so I've got a copy on order via Amazon :-)


Mark Rand
RTFM

In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote:
I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods.

The main hobby machinist was patterned after a real hobby
machinist, who at that time lived on Nantucket. (He actually just moved
to Maine in the last year.)

Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.

They also have as a resource a sail-powered Coast Guard training
ship, which proves to be an invaluable resource, and the massive forests
on the mainland to serve as materials for building more sailing ships.

I won't bother to give away too much, as the story continues
beyond that single book.

In any case -- it is a wonderful read for anyone in this
newsgroup.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC. (Island in the sea of time) The
residence have to gear their technology back quite a bit, understandably.
One of the first things they do is organize the hobby machinists into an
industry to produce necessities and trade goods. Machine shop heroes! One
big problem looming is the finite supply of tool steel and cutting tools.
How would someone with such limited resources make small quantities of
serviceable tool steel cutting tools? They have plenty of mild steel from
boats and cars.

I'll be looking for that book next visit to Borders.

Tool steel is merely carbon steel harder than the material it must cut
for long enough to do the job at cutting speed that doesn't overheat
it. Any steel can be made thus hard in a charcoal fire,
case-hardened with bone meal in a muffle. The result can be harder
and sharper than HSS tooling. It's LSS, works just fine.

High Speed Steel can take more heat than tool steel so it can take
higher speed and feed. But high speed is not necessary to make
goods. High speed in 1200 BC? How fast could they pedal or crank?

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
snip------

Tool steel is merely carbon steel harder than the material it must cut
for long enough to do the job at cutting speed that doesn't overheat
it. Any steel can be made thus hard in a charcoal fire,
case-hardened with bone meal in a muffle.

Actually accomplished quite satisfactorily by any source of carbon, it need
not be bone meal. In commercial operations, it's often done with
atmosphere, simply by providing too much fuel. For pack hardening,
carbonized peach pits are often used.

The result can be harder
and sharper than HSS tooling. It's LSS, works just fine.

If you've never tried carbon steel for machining, especially if you're
running reasonably modern machines, you'll never know the frustration that
comes with its use. Once you're used to the performance level of HSS,
it's nearly impossible to revert to lesser cutting tools. It seems so
unnatural to cut so slowly------but then perhaps for many of the home shop
types, that isn't a problem. Having worked in industry, it drives me nuts!
I own a 1-1/8" carbon steel drill, purchased for a buck at a flea market.
Absolutely worthless for anything but non-ferrous use.

Harold

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:49:16 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


If you've never tried carbon steel for machining, especially if you're
running reasonably modern machines, you'll never know the frustration that
comes with its use. Once you're used to the performance level of HSS,
it's nearly impossible to revert to lesser cutting tools. It seems so
unnatural to cut so slowly------but then perhaps for many of the home shop
types, that isn't a problem. Having worked in industry, it drives me nuts!
I own a 1-1/8" carbon steel drill, purchased for a buck at a flea market.
Absolutely worthless for anything but non-ferrous use.

Right, but man has known how to make carbon steel for hundreds of
years, long before machines went any faster than one could turn a
crank by hand or with oxen.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket getting
transported back in time to 1200 BC.
SNip

I'll be looking for that book next visit to Borders.

OK just what is the name of this book?

...lew...

Lew Hartswick wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:51 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


I'm reading an interesting novel about the island of Nantucket
getting transported back in time to 1200 BC.

SNip


I'll be looking for that book next visit to Borders.

OK just what is the name of this book?

...lew...

That's Steve Stirling's "Island in the Sea of Time".

Most of what Steve writes is good -- although most of it isn't nearly as
technically oriented. His real interest is history, especially military
history, and it comes out in a lot of alternate universe stories.

I had dinner one time with him and Harry Turtledove and we got off on
these history and alternate history themes -- and what a rat Roger
Zelazny was for not finishing the "Amber" series. It was a fascinating
dinner, especially since unbeknownst to Steve and Harry, Roger Zelazny
was sitting one table over.

If you like "Island", you'd probably also like Eric Flint's "1632",
"1633" and "1634" The Galileo Affair" about a West Virginia coal mining
town tossed back into Germany in the middle of the 30 Years War.

Have you every considered what a modern boring machine would do for the
accuracy and power of 17th Century cannon? Or how to build an airplane
out of what's just lying around?

--RC