Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

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"Jon Anderson" wrote in message ...

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down.

Jon

What do you think about starting out with a spotting drill?

Tom

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On 2/06/2016 1:07 AM, tdacon wrote:

What do you think about starting out with a spotting drill?

Not going to happen. Get the job done is the rule of the day. Very
seldom does anyone get much more precise than trying to hit a drawn or
scribed mark.

Jon

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On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 6:37:29 AM UTC-4, Jon Anderson wrote:
Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

---
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Have a look at the videos on the Drill Doctor web site - they do point-splitting that is..."different" but it works well. It may help you make sense of what your machine is doing.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:40:38 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 6:37:29 AM UTC-4, Jon Anderson wrote:
Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

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Have a look at the videos on the Drill Doctor web site - they do point-splitting that is..."different" but it works well. It may help you make sense of what your machine is doing.

There is nothing one can do with a drill bit ground by hand that will
avoid the trilobal tendency. Nothing. It may be too small to see with
the naked eye, but probably not. It will be there. If you can see it,
you've got it bad.

There is little one can do with ANY sharpening method for conventional
twist drills to avoid it. It's an inherent fact of drill bit geometry,
not just the accuracy of the grind. Sharpening by hand makes it much
worse, but you'll still get it with the best Swiss tool and cutter
grinder.

In production, they minimize it by using the shortest, stiffest drill
bits they can. Often a stub drill is used to start a hole. In the
past, it was less of an issue because they used drill jigs. But
machinists have known for a century and a half that their holes are
not going to be round.

Split points help. Radon grinds help. Two-step drills with a little
starting pilot helps. But nothing with stop it.

Conventional drill bits are roughing tools. They always have been.
It's something we have to live with.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 01 Jun 2016 18:23:46 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:40:38 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 6:37:29 AM UTC-4, Jon Anderson wrote:
Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

---
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Have a look at the videos on the Drill Doctor web site - they do point-splitting that is..."different" but it works well. It may help you make sense of what your machine is doing.

There is nothing one can do with a drill bit ground by hand that will
avoid the trilobal tendency. Nothing. It may be too small to see with
the naked eye, but probably not. It will be there. If you can see it,
you've got it bad.

There is little one can do with ANY sharpening method for conventional
twist drills to avoid it. It's an inherent fact of drill bit geometry,
not just the accuracy of the grind. Sharpening by hand makes it much
worse, but you'll still get it with the best Swiss tool and cutter
grinder.

In production, they minimize it by using the shortest, stiffest drill
bits they can. Often a stub drill is used to start a hole. In the
past, it was less of an issue because they used drill jigs. But
machinists have known for a century and a half that their holes are
not going to be round.

Split points help. Radon grinds help. Two-step drills with a little
starting pilot helps. But nothing with stop it.

Conventional drill bits are roughing tools. They always have been.
It's something we have to live with.

That's "Racon" grind, not Radon. Keyboard slip...

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 20:37:21 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

---
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About the only problem I have with the Drill Doctor (750) is the split
point result. to me, to re sharpen after doing a split point, I want
to shorten the drill by 1/2D before I start.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

On 2/06/2016 8:23 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

There is little one can do with ANY sharpening method for conventional
twist drills to avoid it. It's an inherent fact of drill bit geometry,
not just the accuracy of the grind. Sharpening by hand makes it much
worse, but you'll still get it with the best Swiss tool and cutter
grinder.

I have an SRD grinder, and it does a really nice job. Also used a Black
Diamond years ago, so have thsoe to compare to. Hey, it does the job,
far better than anyone in the shop can do by hand. Was just curious to
see if I could improve things a bit. I did have time yesterday to mess
with it, I managed to improve the roundness a bit, but can't get as good
a hole as new, nor what my SRD can do. Big problem is there's really not
much I can adjust on it. Oh well...


Jon

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On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 19:53:14 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 2/06/2016 8:23 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

There is little one can do with ANY sharpening method for conventional
twist drills to avoid it. It's an inherent fact of drill bit geometry,
not just the accuracy of the grind. Sharpening by hand makes it much
worse, but you'll still get it with the best Swiss tool and cutter
grinder.

I have an SRD grinder, and it does a really nice job. Also used a Black
Diamond years ago, so have thsoe to compare to. Hey, it does the job,
far better than anyone in the shop can do by hand. Was just curious to
see if I could improve things a bit. I did have time yesterday to mess
with it, I managed to improve the roundness a bit, but can't get as good
a hole as new, nor what my SRD can do. Big problem is there's really not
much I can adjust on it. Oh well...


Jon

---
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If it's worth the tooling investment, there are some combination bits
that will drill the hole and then ream it in one operation. Or, there
are multi-lead drill bits that drill a hole that's closer to being
round.

--
Ed Huntress

On 4/06/2016 12:31 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

If it's worth the tooling investment, there are some combination bits
that will drill the hole and then ream it in one operation. Or, there
are multi-lead drill bits that drill a hole that's closer to being
round.

We have some of the multi-step single lip drills. They don't do a great
job of starting a hole in SS, but so long as material thickness is equal
or less than the step length, they do a good job. Mostly used out in the
plant though, in hand drills.

I'm trying to get approval to purchase a quality bench mounted punch,
something that'll do up to maybe 20mm in 2mm SS. We shouldn't be trying
to drill 20mm holes in sheetmetal...


Jon


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On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 10:56:08 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 4/06/2016 12:31 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

If it's worth the tooling investment, there are some combination bits
that will drill the hole and then ream it in one operation. Or, there
are multi-lead drill bits that drill a hole that's closer to being
round.

We have some of the multi-step single lip drills. They don't do a great
job of starting a hole in SS, but so long as material thickness is equal
or less than the step length, they do a good job. Mostly used out in the
plant though, in hand drills.

They can be useful. The combination bits I mentioned, though, are for
a single diameter, and they have a good reamer.


I'm trying to get approval to purchase a quality bench mounted punch,
something that'll do up to maybe 20mm in 2mm SS. We shouldn't be trying
to drill 20mm holes in sheetmetal...

Right. A punch is the right tool.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 10:56:08 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 4/06/2016 12:31 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

If it's worth the tooling investment, there are some combination bits
that will drill the hole and then ream it in one operation. Or, there
are multi-lead drill bits that drill a hole that's closer to being
round.

We have some of the multi-step single lip drills. They don't do a great
job of starting a hole in SS, but so long as material thickness is equal
or less than the step length, they do a good job. Mostly used out in the
plant though, in hand drills.

I'm trying to get approval to purchase a quality bench mounted punch,
something that'll do up to maybe 20mm in 2mm SS. We shouldn't be trying
to drill 20mm holes in sheetmetal...


Jon

Carbine tipped hole saws? Amazon sells at least two versions.
The Lenox Carbide Single Drill Bit - Holesaw Tool Hole Cutter - 20mm
at US$9.50 seems likely to be satisfactory.

--
cheers,

John B.

On 4/06/2016 3:29 PM, John B. wrote:

Carbine tipped hole saws? Amazon sells at least two versions.
The Lenox Carbide Single Drill Bit - Holesaw Tool Hole Cutter - 20mm
at US$9.50 seems likely to be satisfactory.

We have carbide tipped hole saws and they are used at times. But there's
only one other guy in the shop with machine shop experience.
Not to dis our guys, but most have only a vague notion of proper
speeds/feeds. Those hole saws are kinda fragile if not used properly...


Jon

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"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
On 4/06/2016 12:31 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

If it's worth the tooling investment, there are some combination
bits
that will drill the hole and then ream it in one operation. Or,
there
are multi-lead drill bits that drill a hole that's closer to being
round.

We have some of the multi-step single lip drills. They don't do a
great job of starting a hole in SS, but so long as material
thickness is equal or less than the step length, they do a good job.
Mostly used out in the plant though, in hand drills.

I'm trying to get approval to purchase a quality bench mounted
punch, something that'll do up to maybe 20mm in 2mm SS. We shouldn't
be trying to drill 20mm holes in sheetmetal...

Jon

Have you considered Greenlee punches? Unless you need to drill an
initial pilot hole they leave no metal chips in electrical boxes, and
unlike a punch press have no throat depth limit and work fine on site
to modify sheet metal control boxes. The cutting edge is a flat
surface you can resharpen on a belt sander.
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/kn...rpening-14571/

I used a hydraulic set to punch conduit holes in "JIC" control boxes
when building industrial equipment.
http://www.greenlee.com/catalog/Knoc...d-Kits?ps=1000

You need a third hand to support the heavy pump. The ball bearing
studs were much easier to position and often worth the extra operating
effort. At home I use a platform stacker like this as an assistant to
help hold such stuff.
http://www.digitalbuyer.com/wesco-ll...FYFahgodtfIFlw
I got it for $10 at an auction. The hydraulics are bad so a lever
chain hoist operates it. As a positioner the lever hoist which I can
reach from all around it is better than the foot pump.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html
The adjustable die shoe makes changing sizes enough of a nuisance that
I left it at 1/4" and opened up holes with a step drill.

I have these two at home.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/portable-light-duty.html
The throat depth is adequate only for small electronics. If possible I
use the lighter one because the heavier is awkward to align by feel on
a punched dimple.

--jsw

On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models so far,
not up to the Roper Whitney level.

I have the XX model hand punch, nice unit.

I was just trying to figure out what aspect of drill geometry
contributed to lobing and reduce it if I could, just because.
Our work is pretty crude by the standards of most here. Need a hole for
a 10mm bolt, just drill 10.5 or 11mm, nobody worries about nice round
holes... Hole making is 95% 304SS in material thicknesses from 1 to
40mm. Holes in thin material are only part of it. Appreciate the time to
respond and offer the suggestions.

Jon

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On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 9:18:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 20:37:21 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

---
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About the only problem I have with the Drill Doctor (750) is the split
point result. to me, to re sharpen after doing a split point, I want
to shorten the drill by 1/2D before I start.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

I just watched the Drill Doctor videos for a refresher. Boring but informative. It appears that if you set the bit position in the check correctly, the split point WILL be ground off as part of the sharpening, and you end up with a traditional chisel point. No need to first grind off the end - it just happens as a normal matter of course.

On 04/06/16 13:21, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models so
far, not up to the Roper Whitney level.

I have the XX model hand punch, nice unit.

I was just trying to figure out what aspect of drill geometry
contributed to lobing and reduce it if I could, just because.
Our work is pretty crude by the standards of most here. Need a hole
for a 10mm bolt, just drill 10.5 or 11mm, nobody worries about nice
round holes... Hole making is 95% 304SS in material thicknesses from 1
to 40mm. Holes in thin material are only part of it. Appreciate the
time to respond and offer the suggestions.

Jon

Jon,

As your problem is the hole starting out trilobal I would expect it is a
2 flute drill. polygon drills have one less cutting edge than the shape
they cut so a square hole drill has 3 cutting edges, see
http://www.integerspin.co.uk/polygon.htm

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"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck
finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models so
far, not up to the Roper Whitney level.

I have the XX model hand punch, nice unit.

I was just trying to figure out what aspect of drill geometry
contributed to lobing and reduce it if I could, just because.
Our work is pretty crude by the standards of most here. Need a hole
for a 10mm bolt, just drill 10.5 or 11mm, nobody worries about nice
round holes... Hole making is 95% 304SS in material thicknesses from
1 to 40mm. Holes in thin material are only part of it. Appreciate
the time to respond and offer the suggestions.

Jon

You could start holes with a center drill, perhaps in a conveniently
small battery powered drill. They make a nice round starting hole, but
they can be difficult to sharpen and a clumsy user may break off the
tip.
http://www.tapdie.com/html/centre_dr...tre_drill.html

--jsw

On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 22:21:18 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models so far,
not up to the Roper Whitney level.

I have the XX model hand punch, nice unit.

I was just trying to figure out what aspect of drill geometry
contributed to lobing and reduce it if I could, just because.
Our work is pretty crude by the standards of most here. Need a hole for
a 10mm bolt, just drill 10.5 or 11mm, nobody worries about nice round
holes... Hole making is 95% 304SS in material thicknesses from 1 to
40mm. Holes in thin material are only part of it. Appreciate the time to
respond and offer the suggestions.

Jon

---
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Greetings Jon,
What angle is your drill point? A 135 degree point will tend to make
triangular holes more than a 118 degree point.
Eric

On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 21:44:18 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 4/06/2016 3:29 PM, John B. wrote:

Carbine tipped hole saws? Amazon sells at least two versions.
The Lenox Carbide Single Drill Bit - Holesaw Tool Hole Cutter - 20mm
at US$9.50 seems likely to be satisfactory.

We have carbide tipped hole saws and they are used at times. But there's
only one other guy in the shop with machine shop experience.
Not to dis our guys, but most have only a vague notion of proper
speeds/feeds. Those hole saws are kinda fragile if not used properly...


Jon

Very very good for materials up to about 10 ga.

http://www.irwin.com/tools/brands/unibit



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On 5/06/2016 6:11 AM, wrote:

What angle is your drill point? A 135 degree point will tend to make
triangular holes more than a 118 degree point.

Yup, 135 degree, which seems to be more or less standard for split
points, at least down here. I'll try a compromise.
But again, nobody else there cares, it's just me trying to tweak
things a bit.

Jon


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On 2016-06-04, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

I'm trying to get approval to purchase a quality bench mounted
punch, something that'll do up to maybe 20mm in 2mm SS. We shouldn't
be trying to drill 20mm holes in sheetmetal...

Jon

Have you considered Greenlee punches? Unless you need to drill an
initial pilot hole they leave no metal chips in electrical boxes, and
unlike a punch press have no throat depth limit and work fine on site
to modify sheet metal control boxes. The cutting edge is a flat
surface you can resharpen on a belt sander.
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/kn...rpening-14571/

The one thing to be careful of when buying them used -- or when
using them from a bin or drawer of punches -- they come marked for size
in two ways.

Radio chassis punches marked 1/2" punch a 1/2" hole.

Knockout punches marked 1/2" cut the proper hole for the end
thread of a 1/2" conduit.

(and so on up the sizes).

I used a hydraulic set to punch conduit holes in "JIC" control boxes
when building industrial equipment.
http://www.greenlee.com/catalog/Knoc...d-Kits?ps=1000

Hydraulics make a lot of things easier. :-)

[ ... ]

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html
The adjustable die shoe makes changing sizes enough of a nuisance that
I left it at 1/4" and opened up holes with a step drill.

That looks nice. But the "Request Quote" button scares me. :-)

I have these two at home.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/portable-light-duty.html
The throat depth is adequate only for small electronics. If possible I
use the lighter one because the heavier is awkward to align by feel on
a punched dimple.

The No. 5 Jr is what I have -- and I once had a French-made
clone (from Brookstone, FWIW) of it. After I got the No. 5 I was using
the clone to punch some 1/4" holes in a hardened 12" scale to mount it on
a 24" DiAcro shear (which I got without the work table, and had to make
my own), and the side plates which transfer the compound leverage to the
punch started to have their pivot holes stretch. I gave up on that, and
switched to the Roper-Whitney, and it completed the job with no
problems. So -- there are differences. I may someday make some
replacement side plates, which seem to have been the only weak point on
the clone.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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On 2016-06-04, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models so far,
not up to the Roper Whitney level.

Given my choice, I would prefer one of the DiAcro turret
punches. you can set it up with something like a dozen punch/die pairs,
round, keyed, D-shape, double-D, square, hex -- whatever you're willing
to pay for. :-)

Though I think that there are now CNC punches which will make
whatever shape you want from a limited supply of shapes.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
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Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 5 Jun 2016 01:58:17 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

The No. 5 Jr is what I have


Ditto here. It's an oldie and a goodie. I've even used it on a belt
when I couldn't find my li'l ferris wheel leather punch.

Good luck, Jon, on the admins OKing your larger bench model punch.

--
Energy and persistence alter all things.
--Benjamin Franklin

On 5/06/2016 12:10 PM, DoN. Nichols wrote:

Given my choice, I would prefer one of the DiAcro turret
punches. you can set it up with something like a dozen punch/die pairs,
round, keyed, D-shape, double-D, square, hex -- whatever you're willing
to pay for. :-)

Those are nice. But I'll bet there's not many down here.
In fact in machinery, there's far more brands new to me that those
I'm familiar with in the States.

Though I think that there are now CNC punches which will make
whatever shape you want from a limited supply of shapes.

Anything approaching even a modest production run, we have made by our
SS fabricator, who has a laser. I'd LOVE to see some CNC stuff on site,
but that'll never happen. No need.

Jon

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On 5 Jun 2016 02:10:22 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-06-04, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models so far,
not up to the Roper Whitney level.

Given my choice, I would prefer one of the DiAcro turret
punches. you can set it up with something like a dozen punch/die pairs,
round, keyed, D-shape, double-D, square, hex -- whatever you're willing
to pay for. :-)

They can be found on Ebay easily enough.

Just keep in mind..that they can only punch smaller sheets..or put
holes in edges up to about 12-14" from edge of the sheet. You wont be
doing a lot of big sheets with a punch, unless you are punching around
the outside of the sheet. And you wont be doing much stuff bigger than
about 14ga

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Exc-Diacro-1...-/381230039434
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WIEDEMANN-12...N/261752403307

Etc etc

Now if you are doing things like box covers and the like...they work
very well..as long as any lips are very shallow...else they wont go
into the machine in many cases.




Though I think that there are now CNC punches which will make
whatever shape you want from a limited supply of shapes.

Good Luck,
DoN.

Trumpf and others make decent CNC punches, but are generally pretty
pricey and are best used for production work. A number of specialty
metal shops that I service have them. Fast as hell..noisy as hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6boaq0c18k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PWhUEnB-6A

Though to be fair...lasers are taking much of that business away from
punches...at least for the nitsy detail work...and the same with
waterjet for intermediate work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFNnRrQd4XA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyhV4oLOHEg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCiqUK_ZdPQ

Lasers for utrafine kerfs on thin stock
Plasma for moderate kerfs on stock up to about 3" (YMMV)
Waterjet for heavier kerfs on stock up to about 12" thick

(there are some exceptions)

Gunner

On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 21:44:18 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 4/06/2016 3:29 PM, John B. wrote:

Carbine tipped hole saws? Amazon sells at least two versions.
The Lenox Carbide Single Drill Bit - Holesaw Tool Hole Cutter - 20mm
at US$9.50 seems likely to be satisfactory.

We have carbide tipped hole saws and they are used at times. But there's
only one other guy in the shop with machine shop experience.
Not to dis our guys, but most have only a vague notion of proper
speeds/feeds. Those hole saws are kinda fragile if not used properly...


Jon

When you add the qualifier "not used properly" :-)

--
cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 22:21:18 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models so far,
not up to the Roper Whitney level.

I have the XX model hand punch, nice unit.

I was just trying to figure out what aspect of drill geometry
contributed to lobing and reduce it if I could, just because.
Our work is pretty crude by the standards of most here. Need a hole for
a 10mm bolt, just drill 10.5 or 11mm, nobody worries about nice round
holes... Hole making is 95% 304SS in material thicknesses from 1 to
40mm. Holes in thin material are only part of it. Appreciate the time to
respond and offer the suggestions.

Jon

The usual cause is uneven flute angle or length. But also point angle
may vary depending on material drilled.
http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-drills-speeds.htm

You might want to review
http://www.michigandrill.com/tech/tw...t_grinding.php

--
cheers,

John B.

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2016-06-04, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck
finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models so
far,
not up to the Roper Whitney level.

Given my choice, I would prefer one of the DiAcro turret
punches. you can set it up with something like a dozen punch/die
pairs,
round, keyed, D-shape, double-D, square, hex -- whatever you're
willing
to pay for. :-)

Though I think that there are now CNC punches which will make
whatever shape you want from a limited supply of shapes.

Good Luck,
DoN.

The model shop I inherited at Mitre had a pristine Rotex turret punch
like this:
http://www.bataviamachinery.net/rotex.htm

I quickly found that it was useless for reworking flanged panels and
the main shop's Strippit was much better for initially punching the
flat panel, before bending it. Digital meters and controllers require
rectangular openings, not the large round analog meter holes the Rotex
was made for.

Sadly it had to go, along with a 13" South Bend long bed lathe, to
make room for humbler but more useful machines from Enco et al.

Likewise at the shop where I learned machine building in the 70's the
Strippit did most of the sheet metal fab, Greenlee punches were only
for working on the partly assembled machines. They didn't own or need
a manual bench punch, and rarely used the Milwaukee mag base drill.
Controls had to be oil tight but water wasn't a concern, so everything
was sheet steel that could be formed on the Strippit and the press
brake and then welded into large cabinet frames, similar to relay
racks unless they had to hold large motors or refrigeration
compressors.

They specialized in custom test chambers that operate batches of
automotive electronic modules while temperature cycling them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_aging

At home when I need a large round hole in a panel I rough it with a
hole saw and finish it on the mill with a boring head. Both tolerate a
panel that isn't clamped securely flat. I try to design with flat,
unflanged panels no wider than twice the mill's throat depth,
typically of the standard relay rack sizes. Larger flat panels flex at
the cutouts when unscrewed from the chassis, which isn't healthy for
the installed equipment.

The max practical limit for my 30" 3-in-1 sheet metal machine is
0.050" 5052 aluminum. 0.062" 6061 strains it. The 8" Enco bench shear
is good for 1/8" or 12 gauge steel.

Of course my radio and computer electronics don't need to be sealed
against hosedowns. Outdoor fixture boxes and nonmetallic flex conduit
from Home Depot are good enough for the solar panel and machine tool
wiring that does need to be sealed.

--jsw

On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 20:25:22 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On 5 Jun 2016 02:10:22 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-06-04, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models so far,
not up to the Roper Whitney level.

Given my choice, I would prefer one of the DiAcro turret
punches. you can set it up with something like a dozen punch/die pairs,
round, keyed, D-shape, double-D, square, hex -- whatever you're willing
to pay for. :-)

They can be found on Ebay easily enough.

Jon lives in a rural part of Australia, Gunner. The pickin' is a mite
sparse Down Under.

And standard 6-10 week shipping to Oz costs an arm, a leg, and your
left nut. Airmail? Send your wife and all daughters.

--
Energy and persistence alter all things.
--Benjamin Franklin

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 20:25:22 -0700, Gunner Asch

wrote:

On 5 Jun 2016 02:10:22 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"

wrote:

On 2016-06-04, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck
finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models
so far,
not up to the Roper Whitney level.

Given my choice, I would prefer one of the DiAcro turret
punches. you can set it up with something like a dozen punch/die
pairs,
round, keyed, D-shape, double-D, square, hex -- whatever you're
willing
to pay for. :-)

They can be found on Ebay easily enough.

Jon lives in a rural part of Australia, Gunner. The pickin' is a
mite
sparse Down Under.

And standard 6-10 week shipping to Oz costs an arm, a leg, and your
left nut. Airmail? Send your wife and all daughters.

I think he'd be well off with a ball-bearing Greenlee-type set and an
oil can to store with it. They worked well enough for me on ~3mm thick
mild steel. The only real advantage of the hydraulic unit over a hole
saw was the lack of chips, which allowed us to use it in wired control
boxes when a change order necessitated larger conduit.

When I need to open up an existing hole with a hole saw I turn a
wooden tapered centering plug, from an old plug I saved for this or
else dry oak from the firewood shed. The punch side of the Greenlee
can be aligned to a marked circle.

--jsw

On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 07:40:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 20:25:22 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On 5 Jun 2016 02:10:22 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2016-06-04, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 4/06/2016 9:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Have you considered Greenlee punches?

Good tools, I have a few. But would only work in a few instances.

I've used one of these at a later job.
http://www.roperwhitney.com/bench-deep-throat.html

This is more what I want for the shop, but not having much luck finding
something equivalent down here. Have only found a couple models so far,
not up to the Roper Whitney level.

Given my choice, I would prefer one of the DiAcro turret
punches. you can set it up with something like a dozen punch/die pairs,
round, keyed, D-shape, double-D, square, hex -- whatever you're willing
to pay for. :-)

They can be found on Ebay easily enough.

Jon lives in a rural part of Australia, Gunner. The pickin' is a mite
sparse Down Under.

And standard 6-10 week shipping to Oz costs an arm, a leg, and your
left nut. Airmail? Send your wife and all daughters.

Yes indeed it does cost serious money. But now after looking at the
photos he has some idea of what was built and may be available to use.
Im quite sure there was no ban on such items in Oz in the past 70
yrs...some must have made it into the county.
I know that there are some..some machine tool dealers down there, and
some..some surplus places. If Jon hasnt figured out who they are and
what they carry...Id be terribly surprised. He is very sharp.

Jons living in a rural part of Oz has its own issues, and he is going
to have to overcome them one way or another..and by now...must have
some sort of network set up with truckers and lorry drivers and people
passing through his town. If he doesnt....shrug...he knew what he was
getting into before he moved.

Showing the lad what can be found...is not the same thing as
delivering it to him. Thats his problem(s). I can find that sort of
thing with great ease here in slowly crumbling Southern California. I
can even ship said stuff to him. And as he is a friend..Id do it the
cheapest possible way. Which may or may not be anything related to
what we Yank call "cheap"

Gunner

"David Billington" wrote in message
...
On 05/06/16 04:19, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 5/06/2016 12:10 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Would something like a fly press (screw press in the US) do. I have
one and love it and a few years ago acquired a decent set of metric
and inch sized punches and dies off ebay. Fly presses in the UK are
quite common but the punch and die sets not nearly so but round ones
aren't that expensive to buy new. I had used them before at a
company I worked at but when I got my own set working I was amazed
at how much quicker and easier it was to use the punches and dies
compared to drilling for making holes in sheet metal. All the
punches I have have a centring pip to pick up a centre pop and so
once located a quick swing and you have a nice clean hole that
doesn't require cleaning up.


This is the common small press he
http://www.engineering.uiowa.edu/ems...nt/arbor-press

They are generally rated from 1/2 to 3 tons, perhaps more but I
haven't encountered those. In New England at least, used ones are
often modified with punches and dies to install swaged hardware in
circuit boards.

I've seen only the one bench-sized sheet metal hole punch I mentioned
in a company shop and none in used tool stores, if I had I'd own it..
The ironworkers I examined didn't have enough throat depth.
http://www.scotchman.com/ironworkers/

In my experience the usual small-run precision sheet metal punch press
was a Strippit:
http://www.strippittech.com/Strippit..._Machines.html

--jsw

On 05/06/16 23:33, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"David Billington" wrote in message
...
On 05/06/16 04:19, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 5/06/2016 12:10 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Would something like a fly press (screw press in the US) do. I have
one and love it and a few years ago acquired a decent set of metric
and inch sized punches and dies off ebay. Fly presses in the UK are
quite common but the punch and die sets not nearly so but round ones
aren't that expensive to buy new. I had used them before at a
company I worked at but when I got my own set working I was amazed
at how much quicker and easier it was to use the punches and dies
compared to drilling for making holes in sheet metal. All the
punches I have have a centring pip to pick up a centre pop and so
once located a quick swing and you have a nice clean hole that
doesn't require cleaning up.

This is the common small press he
http://www.engineering.uiowa.edu/ems...nt/arbor-press
A different machine, we have arbor presses here in the UK but a fly
press is different and can hold the punch and die accurately whereas an
arbor press is largely for pressing items in/out and isn't accurate,
especially the likely Chinese version you provided a link to. A typical
fly press here
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sweeney-Bl...-/331870208098 will
hold a punch and die accurately and allow for quick swapping of punch
and die once the bolster is set up to allow for quick changes of hole size.

They are generally rated from 1/2 to 3 tons, perhaps more but I
haven't encountered those. In New England at least, used ones are
often modified with punches and dies to install swaged hardware in
circuit boards.

I've seen only the one bench-sized sheet metal hole punch I mentioned
in a company shop and none in used tool stores, if I had I'd own it..
The ironworkers I examined didn't have enough throat depth.
http://www.scotchman.com/ironworkers/

In my experience the usual small-run precision sheet metal punch press
was a Strippit:
http://www.strippittech.com/Strippit..._Machines.html

--jsw

On 6/06/2016 12:40 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Jon lives in a rural part of Australia, Gunner. The pickin' is a mite
sparse Down Under.

And standard 6-10 week shipping to Oz costs an arm, a leg, and your
left nut. Airmail? Send your wife and all daughters.

Unibit clones are readily available, I bought several for the sparkies.

Slow boat shipping isn't too bad, just slow. A small flat rate box is
$34. But unless I need something from the States badly, I have stuff
shipped to my folks who collect and forward. Costs a good bit of money,
but that's just the way it is....

Jon


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On 6/06/2016 5:36 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

It sounds like a challenge you've really sunk your teeth into, Jon. I
hope you continue to enjoy it.

Thanks, I'm loving it. Nice to finally have a job I enjoy, and where I
can really contribute. And get a steady paycheck... lol.
Plan is to work to 70, but at 67 I'd have 10 years in and get my long
service leave, 3 months paid. Something to look forward to.

Jon



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On 6/06/2016 7:03 AM, David Billington wrote:

Would something like a fly press (screw press in the US) do. I have one
and love it and a few years ago acquired a decent set of metric and inch
sized punches and dies off ebay.

Probably, but a bit of a one trick pony, whereas an iron worker can
address multiple tasks. Thanks for the suggestion. Might consider
trying to find one when I start putting my shop back together.

Jon


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On 08/06/16 20:44, Jon Anderson wrote:
On 6/06/2016 7:03 AM, David Billington wrote:

Would something like a fly press (screw press in the US) do. I have one
and love it and a few years ago acquired a decent set of metric and inch
sized punches and dies off ebay.

Probably, but a bit of a one trick pony, whereas an iron worker can
address multiple tasks. Thanks for the suggestion. Might consider
trying to find one when I start putting my shop back together.

Jon

Jon,

A fly press can do many things, I use mine for punching holes,
folding metal with brake press type kit, shrinking metal with shrinking
jaws, forming metal with suitable forming tools, sizing items to OD and
ID, swaging tubing down to size with blacksmith type swaging tools, many
are easy to make. Forming rings, doming sheet metal, I think the
applications are endless it's just a matter of knowledge and skill to
produce the tools and maybe time, although many of the tools I have made
such as swaging tools are quick and easy to make. I find another nice
feature of a fly press is that you control the energy input and so get a
feel for the working of the material.



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On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:33:16 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 6/06/2016 12:40 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Jon lives in a rural part of Australia, Gunner. The pickin' is a mite
sparse Down Under.

And standard 6-10 week shipping to Oz costs an arm, a leg, and your
left nut. Airmail? Send your wife and all daughters.

Unibit clones are readily available, I bought several for the sparkies.

Slow boat shipping isn't too bad, just slow. A small flat rate box is
$34. But unless I need something from the States badly, I have stuff
shipped to my folks who collect and forward. Costs a good bit of money,
but that's just the way it is....

Yet I just bought a set of Chiwanese wire rope cutters for $12 with
free shipping all the way from Hong Kong, just a hop, skip, and jump
north of you. They work a treat on bicycle brake cables. Speaking of
which, how do you solder the ends of those things so they can be poked
through a cable housing after cutting and lubing?

Is there a special flux? I couldn't get it cleaned and soldered even
with a butane torch.


--
Energy and persistence alter all things.
--Benjamin Franklin

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:16:03 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 18:33:16 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 6/06/2016 12:40 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Jon lives in a rural part of Australia, Gunner. The pickin' is a mite
sparse Down Under.

And standard 6-10 week shipping to Oz costs an arm, a leg, and your
left nut. Airmail? Send your wife and all daughters.

Unibit clones are readily available, I bought several for the sparkies.

Slow boat shipping isn't too bad, just slow. A small flat rate box is
$34. But unless I need something from the States badly, I have stuff
shipped to my folks who collect and forward. Costs a good bit of money,
but that's just the way it is....

Yet I just bought a set of Chiwanese wire rope cutters for $12 with
free shipping all the way from Hong Kong, just a hop, skip, and jump
north of you. They work a treat on bicycle brake cables. Speaking of
which, how do you solder the ends of those things so they can be poked
through a cable housing after cutting and lubing?

Is there a special flux? I couldn't get it cleaned and soldered even
with a butane torch.

The better bicycle cables are, I believe, stainless of some sort. Or
at least the cable on my bikes never seem to rust. Looking at the end
of a new cable with a magnifier it is discolored and the end appears
to be fused as though by heat.

If you coat the end of the cable with super glue or even epoxy (and
let it dry of course) before cutting it helps. But most people cut the
housing to length then insert the cable in the housing and connect the
brake or shifter and then than cut the cable :-)
--
cheers,

John B.