Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

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"Jon Anderson" wrote in message ...

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down.

Jon

What do you think about starting out with a spotting drill?

Tom

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On 2/06/2016 1:07 AM, tdacon wrote:

What do you think about starting out with a spotting drill?

Not going to happen. Get the job done is the rule of the day. Very
seldom does anyone get much more precise than trying to hit a drawn or
scribed mark.

Jon

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On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 6:37:29 AM UTC-4, Jon Anderson wrote:
Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

---
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Have a look at the videos on the Drill Doctor web site - they do point-splitting that is..."different" but it works well. It may help you make sense of what your machine is doing.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:40:38 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 6:37:29 AM UTC-4, Jon Anderson wrote:
Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

---
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Have a look at the videos on the Drill Doctor web site - they do point-splitting that is..."different" but it works well. It may help you make sense of what your machine is doing.

There is nothing one can do with a drill bit ground by hand that will
avoid the trilobal tendency. Nothing. It may be too small to see with
the naked eye, but probably not. It will be there. If you can see it,
you've got it bad.

There is little one can do with ANY sharpening method for conventional
twist drills to avoid it. It's an inherent fact of drill bit geometry,
not just the accuracy of the grind. Sharpening by hand makes it much
worse, but you'll still get it with the best Swiss tool and cutter
grinder.

In production, they minimize it by using the shortest, stiffest drill
bits they can. Often a stub drill is used to start a hole. In the
past, it was less of an issue because they used drill jigs. But
machinists have known for a century and a half that their holes are
not going to be round.

Split points help. Radon grinds help. Two-step drills with a little
starting pilot helps. But nothing with stop it.

Conventional drill bits are roughing tools. They always have been.
It's something we have to live with.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 01 Jun 2016 18:23:46 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:40:38 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 6:37:29 AM UTC-4, Jon Anderson wrote:
Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

---
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Have a look at the videos on the Drill Doctor web site - they do point-splitting that is..."different" but it works well. It may help you make sense of what your machine is doing.

There is nothing one can do with a drill bit ground by hand that will
avoid the trilobal tendency. Nothing. It may be too small to see with
the naked eye, but probably not. It will be there. If you can see it,
you've got it bad.

There is little one can do with ANY sharpening method for conventional
twist drills to avoid it. It's an inherent fact of drill bit geometry,
not just the accuracy of the grind. Sharpening by hand makes it much
worse, but you'll still get it with the best Swiss tool and cutter
grinder.

In production, they minimize it by using the shortest, stiffest drill
bits they can. Often a stub drill is used to start a hole. In the
past, it was less of an issue because they used drill jigs. But
machinists have known for a century and a half that their holes are
not going to be round.

Split points help. Radon grinds help. Two-step drills with a little
starting pilot helps. But nothing with stop it.

Conventional drill bits are roughing tools. They always have been.
It's something we have to live with.

That's "Racon" grind, not Radon. Keyboard slip...

--
Ed Huntress

On 2/06/2016 8:23 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

There is little one can do with ANY sharpening method for conventional
twist drills to avoid it. It's an inherent fact of drill bit geometry,
not just the accuracy of the grind. Sharpening by hand makes it much
worse, but you'll still get it with the best Swiss tool and cutter
grinder.

I have an SRD grinder, and it does a really nice job. Also used a Black
Diamond years ago, so have thsoe to compare to. Hey, it does the job,
far better than anyone in the shop can do by hand. Was just curious to
see if I could improve things a bit. I did have time yesterday to mess
with it, I managed to improve the roundness a bit, but can't get as good
a hole as new, nor what my SRD can do. Big problem is there's really not
much I can adjust on it. Oh well...


Jon

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On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 19:53:14 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 2/06/2016 8:23 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

There is little one can do with ANY sharpening method for conventional
twist drills to avoid it. It's an inherent fact of drill bit geometry,
not just the accuracy of the grind. Sharpening by hand makes it much
worse, but you'll still get it with the best Swiss tool and cutter
grinder.

I have an SRD grinder, and it does a really nice job. Also used a Black
Diamond years ago, so have thsoe to compare to. Hey, it does the job,
far better than anyone in the shop can do by hand. Was just curious to
see if I could improve things a bit. I did have time yesterday to mess
with it, I managed to improve the roundness a bit, but can't get as good
a hole as new, nor what my SRD can do. Big problem is there's really not
much I can adjust on it. Oh well...


Jon

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If it's worth the tooling investment, there are some combination bits
that will drill the hole and then ream it in one operation. Or, there
are multi-lead drill bits that drill a hole that's closer to being
round.

--
Ed Huntress

On 4/06/2016 12:31 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

If it's worth the tooling investment, there are some combination bits
that will drill the hole and then ream it in one operation. Or, there
are multi-lead drill bits that drill a hole that's closer to being
round.

We have some of the multi-step single lip drills. They don't do a great
job of starting a hole in SS, but so long as material thickness is equal
or less than the step length, they do a good job. Mostly used out in the
plant though, in hand drills.

I'm trying to get approval to purchase a quality bench mounted punch,
something that'll do up to maybe 20mm in 2mm SS. We shouldn't be trying
to drill 20mm holes in sheetmetal...


Jon


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On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 20:37:21 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

---
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About the only problem I have with the Drill Doctor (750) is the split
point result. to me, to re sharpen after doing a split point, I want
to shorten the drill by 1/2D before I start.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 9:18:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 20:37:21 +1000, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Bought a drill sharpener from Hare and Forbes here in AU, per link
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/D111

Nobody at work besides me can hand sharpen a drill, and without
an Optivisor, I don't do so good anymore. Environment is an abattoir
maintenance shop, we don't do anything terribly precise.

Issue I'm having is sharpened drills tend to tri-lobe until about 1mm
deep, when things settle down. Have not had much time to experiment with
it. Seems like back rake is a bit shallow. This seems to be set by
selecting drill diameter on the left side when setting drill in the
collet. Appears to do a nice even grind, but have to mess with the
setting for split points, it's grinding more of a really severe web
thinning right now. Manual is not the best to help with solving issues.
So, what aspect of drill geometry is likely the culprit in the wobbly
starts? Really, has no effect whatever on our work, just kinda irritates
me. Drills start out as split points and do a nice job. Material is
mostly 304, with a fair bit of HRS.

As for the sharpener, though I've never used one of the plastic Drill
Doctors, I'd think it likely a big improvement. There is a tiny bit of
play between the collet holder body and the sockets where the drill is
sharpened. A ham-fist is not going to get the best results, but with a
bit of care, looks to be capable of doing a good job and holding up.
Nowhere near enough use yet to gage diamond wheel life.


Jon

---
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About the only problem I have with the Drill Doctor (750) is the split
point result. to me, to re sharpen after doing a split point, I want
to shorten the drill by 1/2D before I start.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

I just watched the Drill Doctor videos for a refresher. Boring but informative. It appears that if you set the bit position in the check correctly, the split point WILL be ground off as part of the sharpening, and you end up with a traditional chisel point. No need to first grind off the end - it just happens as a normal matter of course.