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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/18/2013 5:13 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
wrote: Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? Don't most have an alarm clock function? From the photos, it was just a small timer and battery. Printed circuit board even. I did some research (way back then) for my (licensed) pyromaniac boss for a laptop controlled fireworks sequencer circuit. We found that TTL logic levels would safely and reliably fire electrical squibs. I still put a ground bar relay in it - just because I'm fond of all my fingers! But it did work quite well. |
#2
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if
a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/18/2013 6:34 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/sit...search&x=0&y=0 Probably more like: http://www.simplecircuitboards.com/Timer%20Boards.html An LM-555 and a couple of caps and resistors. Home made, untraceable (and no count down display like in the movies). |
#7
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/18/2013 8:31 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Martin fired this volley in : cell phones in the Boston bombing... I don't know if you recognize any of the common parts shown in the photos of the debris, but there we 1) parts of a standard 7.2V NiCd 'hobby' style battery pack for models (cars and planes) 2) parts of an electronic speed controller for RC cars or planes... looked like a Great Planes or Novak component (in-line style) ESC. 3 parts of a Novak RC radio receiver for cars or planes (orange case, very recognizable) I'll let you guess from that whether or not cell phones were used as the firing box. I'm guessin' your guessin' won't be swayed by this. (I'm in an explosives-related biz, so ways to ignite things are reasonably familiar to me) Lloyd It must be nice to have a fun job! |
#8
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/18/2013 9:09 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
wrote in message ... On 4/18/2013 6:34 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote: http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/sit...search&x=0&y=0 Probably more like: http://www.simplecircuitboards.com/Timer%20Boards.html An LM-555 and a couple of caps and resistors. I know about the 555...it's covered extensively in the cmos cookbook.. Home made, untraceable (and no count down display like in the movies). Not if it was triggered by cell phone...you don't want a telemarketer setting it off, what you want an access code. Still, I doubt it was a cell phone. (besides the simple problem that the components in the pictures are not phone parts) A cell phone detonator would be great for a command detonated device. But if that were the case, it seems like they would have had a much higher body count. |
#9
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On Apr 17, 11:01*pm, wrote:
Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? All pressure cookers have holes in the lid for both a relief valve and the cooker's weight spike. A wire could be run out either hole for an antenna OR some kind of external trigger, timer, radio remote, mercury switch, whatever. A high school kid could set it up and have it work, no special genius-level explosives knowledge needed. There's a wide variety of possible triggers, cell phones tend to be used in the - stans because that's the fanciest electronics most folks have access to and they tend to be fairly cheap. Lots more possibilities here where there are a lot more RF-controlled devices. Or there's the classic windup alarm clock trigger. Stan |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:01:27 -0500, aasberry wrote:
Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? Tape the phone to the outside of the pot, run the trigger wire inside. I heard that kitchen timers were used -- they'd be a lot easier and cheaper to set up, and harder to trace (if the bomber cared). Cell phones would possibly me more satisfying to the profoundly sick sort of mind that would do such a thing. -- Tim Wescott Control system and signal processing consulting www.wescottdesign.com |
#11
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
Tim Wescott wrote: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:01:27 -0500, aasberry wrote: Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? Tape the phone to the outside of the pot, run the trigger wire inside. I heard that kitchen timers were used -- they'd be a lot easier and cheaper to set up, and harder to trace (if the bomber cared). Cell phones would possibly me more satisfying to the profoundly sick sort of mind that would do such a thing. The picture of a PCB fragment that has been shown certainly doesn't look like a cell phone part. |
#12
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:01:27 -0500, wrote: Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? one could simply run a small insulated wire through a matching hole in the body of the pot for an antenna. Its not rocket science and a small hole wouldnt effect the pressure build up significantly. I thought it was on the news that cell phone service was turned off in Boston for the run...to prevent just this! |
#13
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:56:58 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: Tim Wescott wrote: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:01:27 -0500, aasberry wrote: Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? Tape the phone to the outside of the pot, run the trigger wire inside. I heard that kitchen timers were used -- they'd be a lot easier and cheaper to set up, and harder to trace (if the bomber cared). Cell phones would possibly me more satisfying to the profoundly sick sort of mind that would do such a thing. The picture of a PCB fragment that has been shown certainly doesn't look like a cell phone part. Not as crude as offshore timer modules, but not nearly as fine as a cell phone. Maybe some kind of hobby electronics, like the battery. |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:26:53 -0700 (PDT), Stanley Schaefer
wrote: On Apr 17, 11:01*pm, wrote: Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? All pressure cookers have holes in the lid for both a relief valve and the cooker's weight spike. A wire could be run out either hole for an antenna OR some kind of external trigger, timer, radio remote, mercury switch, whatever. I wonder what kind of insulative space needs to be kept for a cell phone antenna through the lid so it doesn't short. A high school kid could set it up and have it work, no special genius-level explosives knowledge needed. There's a wide variety of possible triggers, cell phones tend to be used in the - stans because that's the fanciest electronics most folks have access to and they tend to be fairly cheap. Lots more possibilities here where there are a lot more RF-controlled devices. Or there's the classic windup alarm clock trigger. That's the problem with terrorism. There are so many possibles, they can seldom be accounted for enough to prevent the act from happening. -- Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark. In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but never have been able to reach. The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real, it is possible, it is yours. -- Ayn Rand |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:56:58 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Tim Wescott wrote: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:01:27 -0500, aasberry wrote: Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? Tape the phone to the outside of the pot, run the trigger wire inside. I heard that kitchen timers were used -- they'd be a lot easier and cheaper to set up, and harder to trace (if the bomber cared). Cell phones would possibly me more satisfying to the profoundly sick sort of mind that would do such a thing. The picture of a PCB fragment that has been shown certainly doesn't look like a cell phone part. Not as crude as offshore timer modules, but not nearly as fine as a cell phone. Maybe some kind of hobby electronics, like the battery. http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/sit...search&x=0&y=0 |
#16
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
The active part would be on top of the pot with the electronic
explosion cap through the regulator on top. So when the unit blew the cap exploded by itself and the stuff on top would be flung all over the place. The battery was heavy enough not to go far. I suspect two numbers - speed calls - and away they went. Likely each of the two perks did one each - in case one was caught hot handed. Martin On 4/18/2013 1:54 AM, Steve W. wrote: wrote: Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? The pictures I have looked at of the various parts looked like all common discrete components not cell phone pieces. The battery looks like a common RC car pack. Then a cheap alarm clock for a timer/trigger. Nails from any hardware/building supply place. The ball bearings are probably slingshot ammo. |
#17
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
Cells were turned off just after the first explosion.
The runners and their watchers all use cells. Runner at end and watchers to each other along the race. Martin On 4/18/2013 12:07 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: "Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:01:27 -0500, wrote: Speculation is that the bombs were set off by cell phone. I wonder if a cell signal would penetrate the metal of a pressure cooker. Mine barely works in my metal shop building; with the doors open. Any experts want to weigh in? one could simply run a small insulated wire through a matching hole in the body of the pot for an antenna. Its not rocket science and a small hole wouldnt effect the pressure build up significantly. I thought it was on the news that cell phone service was turned off in Boston for the run...to prevent just this! |
#18
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
Martin Eastburn fired this volley in
: cell phones in the Boston bombing... I don't know if you recognize any of the common parts shown in the photos of the debris, but there we 1) parts of a standard 7.2V NiCd 'hobby' style battery pack for models (cars and planes) 2) parts of an electronic speed controller for RC cars or planes... looked like a Great Planes or Novak component (in-line style) ESC. 3 parts of a Novak RC radio receiver for cars or planes (orange case, very recognizable) I'll let you guess from that whether or not cell phones were used as the firing box. I'm guessin' your guessin' won't be swayed by this. (I'm in an explosives-related biz, so ways to ignite things are reasonably familiar to me) Lloyd |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
"Richard" wrote in message ... On 4/18/2013 6:34 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote: http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/sit...search&x=0&y=0 Probably more like: http://www.simplecircuitboards.com/Timer%20Boards.html An LM-555 and a couple of caps and resistors. I know about the 555...it's covered extensively in the cmos cookbook.. Home made, untraceable (and no count down display like in the movies). Not if it was triggered by cell phone...you don't want a telemarketer setting it off, what you want an access code. |
#20
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:24:47 -0500, Richard
wrote: On 4/18/2013 9:09 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote: wrote in message ... On 4/18/2013 6:34 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote: http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/sit...search&x=0&y=0 Probably more like: http://www.simplecircuitboards.com/Timer%20Boards.html An LM-555 and a couple of caps and resistors. I know about the 555...it's covered extensively in the cmos cookbook.. Home made, untraceable (and no count down display like in the movies). Not if it was triggered by cell phone...you don't want a telemarketer setting it off, what you want an access code. Still, I doubt it was a cell phone. (besides the simple problem that the components in the pictures are not phone parts) A cell phone detonator would be great for a command detonated device. But if that were the case, it seems like they would have had a much higher body count. One of the devices went off right in the middle of a crowd. You would need to use bigger shrapnel and a higher order of explosive to get more damage. In one of the videos..the first blast went off..and hardly fazed any of the runners..except for one guy..who evidently took a hit..and dropped and rolled in pain. The other device was in a stack of Stuff, next to a mail box..which deflected the blast a great deal and it was out between the runners and the crowd. Poor placement. To have done it right..it should have been placed against the face of one of the stone buildings behind the fans. It would have acted like a claymore. Amatures.. Shrug Gunner |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:31:47 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Martin Eastburn fired this volley in : cell phones in the Boston bombing... I don't know if you recognize any of the common parts shown in the photos of the debris, but there we 1) parts of a standard 7.2V NiCd 'hobby' style battery pack for models (cars and planes) 2) parts of an electronic speed controller for RC cars or planes... looked like a Great Planes or Novak component (in-line style) ESC. 3 parts of a Novak RC radio receiver for cars or planes (orange case, very recognizable) I'll let you guess from that whether or not cell phones were used as the firing box. I'm guessin' your guessin' won't be swayed by this. (I'm in an explosives-related biz, so ways to ignite things are reasonably familiar to me) Lloyd RC controlled blaster? Fascinating! Command detonated then. What was the speed controller used for? The trigger pulse to the ignitor, whatever that was? Nichrome wire/model rocket type ignitor across the output? I wonder why there was a 15 second delay between blasts? Channel change? So how far away from the two blasts could the command unit have been? Gunner |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
Gunner Asch on Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:51:34 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: A cell phone detonator would be great for a command detonated device. But if that were the case, it seems like they would have had a much higher body count. One of the devices went off right in the middle of a crowd. You would need to use bigger shrapnel and a higher order of explosive to get more damage. In one of the videos..the first blast went off..and hardly fazed any of the runners..except for one guy..who evidently took a hit..and dropped and rolled in pain. The other device was in a stack of Stuff, next to a mail box..which deflected the blast a great deal and it was out between the runners and the crowd. Poor placement. To have done it right..it should have been placed against the face of one of the stone buildings behind the fans. It would have acted like a claymore. Amatures.. Thank crom for that. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone." |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/20/2013 12:14 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 11:46:00 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Ed fired this volley in : Somehow I'm not troubled by amateur pyros having some of their freedoms restricted. If you feel that way, you don't know much about the art. I know nothing about the art. I do know that I'm not bothered by people having to live with some restrictions on pyrotechnical experiments. "Amateur pyrotechnicians" are not "backyard bombers". They are, in fact, the source of MOST of the new effects and techniques used in the professional trade. That's nice. They pursue the ART of fireworking, preserving hundreds-of-years-old traditional methods of Europe, the US, and the Mediterranean, and at the same time advancing the science, the art, and the technique of fireworks as you see them in the sky. Great. Just as long as they don't mix their brews next door to me. Fireworks is a small industry compared to many, but it's important, and entertains millions safely, economically, and beautifully. 'Amateur' does not mean 'unskilled', nor does it mean unlicensed in many cases. A large number of amateurs hold ATF licenses to do their work. But at the same time, ATF has OFFICIALLY recognized (and promulgated regulations) that their record is so good, and also their intentions, that it is legal under federal law to manufacture fireworks for one's own use. They cannot be _transported_ over the public roads by anyone but a licensee, but they can be made without a permit or license. (local ordinances may mitigate that permission). You should not express negative opinions about people of whom you know nothing. (I do it too, then always regret it) Look, Lloyd, I'm not expressing negative opinions about amateur pyros. I am expressing a combination of some experience with what propellants and explosives can do, and about the uneven distribution of good sense and responsibility among any large population. When you talk in generalized abstractions, like the "freedoms" of amateur pyrotechnicians, it's just not a field -- given the two points in my last paragraph -- in which I'd get upset about some restrictions. On Jan. 1st of this year, San Francisco police reported 188 fireworks injuries. Some of the stories were about "amateur pyrotechnicians." What do you do when one of these guys blows the ears off of his neighbors? Do you disown him? Take away his Amateur Pyrotechnician club card? Claim he was never an amateur pyrotechnician in the place, but only a poseur? It's clearly a field that demands some intelligence, good judgment, a strong sense of safety for oneself and others. Those are characteristics that tend to be, as I said, unevenly distributed. I don't disparage the activity or the practitioners. I'll just watch from a long distance away, and hope they don't get all loose and goosey about their "freedoms" at others' expense. Ok? Sounds vaguely familiar, Ed... |
#24
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/20/2013 1:32 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 00:31:37 -0500, wrote: On 4/20/2013 12:14 PM, Ed Huntress wrote: On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 11:46:00 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Ed fired this volley in : Somehow I'm not troubled by amateur pyros having some of their freedoms restricted. If you feel that way, you don't know much about the art. I know nothing about the art. I do know that I'm not bothered by people having to live with some restrictions on pyrotechnical experiments. "Amateur pyrotechnicians" are not "backyard bombers". They are, in fact, the source of MOST of the new effects and techniques used in the professional trade. That's nice. They pursue the ART of fireworking, preserving hundreds-of-years-old traditional methods of Europe, the US, and the Mediterranean, and at the same time advancing the science, the art, and the technique of fireworks as you see them in the sky. Great. Just as long as they don't mix their brews next door to me. Fireworks is a small industry compared to many, but it's important, and entertains millions safely, economically, and beautifully. 'Amateur' does not mean 'unskilled', nor does it mean unlicensed in many cases. A large number of amateurs hold ATF licenses to do their work. But at the same time, ATF has OFFICIALLY recognized (and promulgated regulations) that their record is so good, and also their intentions, that it is legal under federal law to manufacture fireworks for one's own use. They cannot be _transported_ over the public roads by anyone but a licensee, but they can be made without a permit or license. (local ordinances may mitigate that permission). You should not express negative opinions about people of whom you know nothing. (I do it too, then always regret it) Look, Lloyd, I'm not expressing negative opinions about amateur pyros. I am expressing a combination of some experience with what propellants and explosives can do, and about the uneven distribution of good sense and responsibility among any large population. When you talk in generalized abstractions, like the "freedoms" of amateur pyrotechnicians, it's just not a field -- given the two points in my last paragraph -- in which I'd get upset about some restrictions. On Jan. 1st of this year, San Francisco police reported 188 fireworks injuries. Some of the stories were about "amateur pyrotechnicians." What do you do when one of these guys blows the ears off of his neighbors? Do you disown him? Take away his Amateur Pyrotechnician club card? Claim he was never an amateur pyrotechnician in the place, but only a poseur? It's clearly a field that demands some intelligence, good judgment, a strong sense of safety for oneself and others. Those are characteristics that tend to be, as I said, unevenly distributed. I don't disparage the activity or the practitioners. I'll just watch from a long distance away, and hope they don't get all loose and goosey about their "freedoms" at others' expense. Ok? Sounds vaguely familiar, Ed... It should. It's the way most people think about topics that involve demonstrably dangerous activities and that depend upon good judgment on the part of people they don't know. If they have any sense, they know that depending on someone else's good judgment is not a wise thing to do. Doctors, airline pilots, machinist, high school teachers? Miners, race car drivers, astronauts, etcetera... And I love the way you got that "most people" in there. A majority opinion again? |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/20/2013 2:19 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
I'd bet my house on it. The average person on the street has more common sense than most people who post here. I'd not argue against that! But as for the "average person", that's what I mentioned the other day. There ain't no such thing. People tend to believe that everybody else is just like them, and they are just like everybody else. Normal. Average. Right. But everybody can me average. The math just doesn't work that way. I will, however, allow that there is a strong cultural bias that many people see as "the norm". So it's something of a shock when New Jersians migrate to Texas and find about about all those "Crazy Texans". You ask around your neighborhood. I'll ask around mine. |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/20/2013 3:18 PM, ATP wrote: "Ed wrote in message It's clearly a field that demands some intelligence, good judgment, a strong sense of safety for oneself and others. Those are characteristics that tend to be, as I said, unevenly distributed. I don't disparage the activity or the practitioners. I'll just watch from a long distance away, and hope they don't get all loose and goosey about their "freedoms" at others' expense. Ok? Sounds vaguely familiar, Ed... It should. It's the way most people think about topics that involve demonstrably dangerous activities and that depend upon good judgment on the part of people they don't know. If they have any sense, they know that depending on someone else's good judgment is not a wise thing to do. -- Ed Huntress Every time I snowboard I depend on the good judgement of other riders and skiers on the mountain. They are not tested, certified or licensed. Every time you drive down the street you do the same. THOSE people are licensed too! |
#27
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/20/2013 3:56 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
fired this volley in : If they have any sense, they know that depending on someone else's good judgment is not a wise thing to do. -- Ed Huntress Every time I snowboard I depend on the good judgement of other riders and skiers on the mountain. They are not tested, certified or licensed. Yep. What Ed completely misses is, that in a 'healthy' society, we presume folks will use good judgement, and we penalize only those who do not. It becomes an incentive to consider ones actions. People in such a society learn that freedom of choice equates to responsibility for their actions. In Ed's perfect world, we would penalize the entire society by taking away all the good things 'normal' people deserve in order for the government to better "protect us all" from the dull-witted scumbags that our Islamic Ayatollah-in-chief wants to elevate to "favored son" status. And Ed, that's exactly where we are headed. The government is progressively taking over every aspect of our lives, to eventually leave us all as subservient to it's "loving care". The last thing they want is for citizens to have means - any means - of protecting themselves against the government. 'Sounds like George Orwell's Ingsoc to me! LLoyd Couldn't have said it better myself, Lloyd. |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/20/2013 4:20 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 16:18:41 -0400, "ATP" wrote: "Ed wrote in message ... On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 00:31:37 -0500, wrote: On 4/20/2013 12:14 PM, Ed Huntress wrote: On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 11:46:00 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Ed fired this volley in : Somehow I'm not troubled by amateur pyros having some of their freedoms restricted. If you feel that way, you don't know much about the art. I know nothing about the art. I do know that I'm not bothered by people having to live with some restrictions on pyrotechnical experiments. "Amateur pyrotechnicians" are not "backyard bombers". They are, in fact, the source of MOST of the new effects and techniques used in the professional trade. That's nice. They pursue the ART of fireworking, preserving hundreds-of-years-old traditional methods of Europe, the US, and the Mediterranean, and at the same time advancing the science, the art, and the technique of fireworks as you see them in the sky. Great. Just as long as they don't mix their brews next door to me. Fireworks is a small industry compared to many, but it's important, and entertains millions safely, economically, and beautifully. 'Amateur' does not mean 'unskilled', nor does it mean unlicensed in many cases. A large number of amateurs hold ATF licenses to do their work. But at the same time, ATF has OFFICIALLY recognized (and promulgated regulations) that their record is so good, and also their intentions, that it is legal under federal law to manufacture fireworks for one's own use. They cannot be _transported_ over the public roads by anyone but a licensee, but they can be made without a permit or license. (local ordinances may mitigate that permission). You should not express negative opinions about people of whom you know nothing. (I do it too, then always regret it) Look, Lloyd, I'm not expressing negative opinions about amateur pyros. I am expressing a combination of some experience with what propellants and explosives can do, and about the uneven distribution of good sense and responsibility among any large population. When you talk in generalized abstractions, like the "freedoms" of amateur pyrotechnicians, it's just not a field -- given the two points in my last paragraph -- in which I'd get upset about some restrictions. On Jan. 1st of this year, San Francisco police reported 188 fireworks injuries. Some of the stories were about "amateur pyrotechnicians." What do you do when one of these guys blows the ears off of his neighbors? Do you disown him? Take away his Amateur Pyrotechnician club card? Claim he was never an amateur pyrotechnician in the place, but only a poseur? It's clearly a field that demands some intelligence, good judgment, a strong sense of safety for oneself and others. Those are characteristics that tend to be, as I said, unevenly distributed. I don't disparage the activity or the practitioners. I'll just watch from a long distance away, and hope they don't get all loose and goosey about their "freedoms" at others' expense. Ok? Sounds vaguely familiar, Ed... It should. It's the way most people think about topics that involve demonstrably dangerous activities and that depend upon good judgment on the part of people they don't know. If they have any sense, they know that depending on someone else's good judgment is not a wise thing to do. -- Ed Huntress Every time I snowboard I depend on the good judgement of other riders and skiers on the mountain. They are not tested, certified or licensed. Everyone has his own personal risk/reward ratio.g And it applies to them selves only! Not society as a whole. One assumes that your likelihood of getting your ankles sheared off is quite low. I skiid for years, and I never came close to a collision I couldn't avoid. But my chances of outrunning an explosion are pretty remote. Your chances of even SEEING an explosion are vanishingly small. Except on TV. And there is no reward for me. So the risks I'll tolerate are rather lower than in situations where I'm getting something out of it that I like. Once again, it's a matter of good sense. Yes, but who's? |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/20/2013 4:31 AM, Richard wrote:
On 4/20/2013 2:19 PM, Ed Huntress wrote: I'd bet my house on it. The average person on the street has more common sense than most people who post here. I'd not argue against that! But as for the "average person", that's what I mentioned the other day. There ain't no such thing. People tend to believe that everybody else is just like them, and they are just like everybody else. Normal. Average. Right. But everybody _can't_ be average. The math just doesn't work that way. I will, however, allow that there is a strong cultural bias that many people see as "the norm". So it's something of a shock when New Jersians migrate to Texas and find about about all those "Crazy Texans". You ask around your neighborhood. I'll ask around mine. Stupid spell checker. It doesn't have a clue what I'm trying to say! |
#30
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
Ed, you area very very bad influence!
I just replied to a 120 line message. And it's all YOUR FAULT! |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On Apr 18, 9:31*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: (I'm in an explosives-related biz, so ways to ignite things are reasonably familiar to me) Lloyd The media has put on hours of broadcasting about the bombing, but I have seen nothing that gives any details about the bombs. That may be intentional, no point in inspiring people to build bombs. But I am curious what was the explosive. The fact that the bombs were pressure cooker bombs pretty much says the explosive was not commercial , except it could have been black powder. So does anyone know what was used? Dan |
#32
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 05:07:49 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Apr 18, 9:31Â*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: (I'm in an explosives-related biz, so ways to ignite things are reasonably familiar to me) Lloyd The media has put on hours of broadcasting about the bombing, but I have seen nothing that gives any details about the bombs. That may be intentional, no point in inspiring people to build bombs. But I am curious what was the explosive. The fact that the bombs were pressure cooker bombs pretty much says the explosive was not commercial , except it could have been black powder. So does anyone know what was used? Dan Know? Nothing. Based on the cloud of whitish/grey smoke and the low velocity of the explosion as shown by the videos..black powder or something along that order. It couldnt have been commercial firearms powder..least...its not likely to have been. the blast would have been a higher order and the smoke would not have been nearly white. While the possiblity of it being a commercial firearms powder does..does exist..something fast like Bullseye pistol powder would pressure up fast enough to act similarily...my gut feeling says no..based on the display of the pressure cooker body shown on TV and the lack of a particulate based fireball, which would likely have shown up brightly if a nitro based powder had been ignited. If it had been a nitrobased "gun powder"..the blast would likely have been brilliant as the unburned powder particles were ignited in mid air after the pressure cooker had broken open. I lost a good friend some 10 or more years ago, who was burning old skunky powder by pouring it into an open flame, a small portion at a time..bonfire. When he decided to rush it..he tossed a gallon glass jar into the flames of the bonfire and the fireball that resulted seared him into a 3rd degree flambe along with his son, who was within 10' of the firepit. And by all reports..lit up the neighborhood like a flare..despite it being a sunny day and mid afternoon. He lived for another year or two..but was never right after that and soon died. |
#33
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
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#34
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/20/2013 5:41 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 04:54:30 -0500, wrote: Ed, you area very very bad influence! I just replied to a 120 line message. And it's all YOUR FAULT! Hey, you have to take personal responsibility for your actions. Pay attention to the incentives. d8-) No way! That's totally unfair. Somebody's gotta pay for this. |
#35
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... " fired this volley in news:dea88c27- : So does anyone know what was used Dan, One of my infrequent jobs is to do for-pay forensic studies of fireworks accident scenes, in order to find the cause(s). Part of that involves doing chemical analyses on the various combustion residues in the area. Were you involved in the investigation of the Grucci fireworks plant that exploded on Long Island in the 1980's? |
#36
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
"ATP" fired this volley in
: Were you involved in the investigation of the Grucci fireworks plant that exploded on Long Island in the 1980's? No, although our company helped pick up some of their manufacturing load until the Gruccis finished re-building. We were in NJ, so close enough to lend a hand. (I'm no longer with that company) The Grucci organization (Pyrotechnique by Grucci, Inc) is still one of my clients, although my prior employer no longer interacts with them. LLoyd |
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/18/2013 9:31 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Martin Eastburn fired this volley in : cell phones in the Boston bombing... I don't know if you recognize any of the common parts shown in the photos of the debris, but there wet 1) parts of a standard 7.2V NiCd 'hobby' style battery pack for models (cars and planes) 2) parts of an electronic speed controller for RC cars or planes... looked like a Great Planes or Novak component (in-line style) ESC. 3 parts of a Novak RC radio receiver for cars or planes (orange case, very recognizable) I'll let you guess from that whether or not cell phones were used as the firing box. I'm guessin' your guessin' won't be swayed by this. (I'm in an explosives-related biz, so ways to ignite things are reasonably familiar to me) Lloyd I saw the battery brand (good one) that's used in RC stuff, I'd bet it was just simple kitchen-type timers probably set for the same time and were only ten or so seconds apart. |
#38
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks fired this volley in
: I saw the battery brand (good one) that's used in RC stuff, I'd bet it was just simple kitchen-type timers probably set for the same time and were only ten or so seconds apart. WHY would they use a PWM-controlled ESC with a kitchen timer? And why would they use a Novak RC receiver with a kitchen timer? Nahh... look at the pictures! Lloyd |
#39
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
On 4/20/2013 8:55 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 05:07:49 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Apr 18, 9:31 pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: (I'm in an explosives-related biz, so ways to ignite things are reasonably familiar to me) Lloyd The media has put on hours of broadcasting about the bombing, but I have seen nothing that gives any details about the bombs. That may be intentional, no point in inspiring people to build bombs. But I am curious what was the explosive. The fact that the bombs were pressure cooker bombs pretty much says the explosive was not commercial , except it could have been black powder. So does anyone know what was used? Dan Know? Nothing. Based on the cloud of whitish/grey smoke and the low velocity of the explosion as shown by the videos..black powder or something along that order. It couldnt have been commercial firearms powder..least...its not likely to have been. the blast would have been a higher order and the smoke would not have been nearly white. While the possiblity of it being a commercial firearms powder does..does exist..something fast like Bullseye pistol powder would pressure up fast enough to act similarily...my gut feeling says no..based on the display of the pressure cooker body shown on TV and the lack of a particulate based fireball, which would likely have shown up brightly if a nitro based powder had been ignited. If it had been a nitrobased "gun powder"..the blast would likely have been brilliant as the unburned powder particles were ignited in mid air after the pressure cooker had broken open. I lost a good friend some 10 or more years ago, who was burning old skunky powder by pouring it into an open flame, a small portion at a time..bonfire. When he decided to rush it..he tossed a gallon glass jar into the flames of the bonfire and the fireball that resulted seared him into a 3rd degree flambe along with his son, who was within 10' of the firepit. And by all reports..lit up the neighborhood like a flare..despite it being a sunny day and mid afternoon. He lived for another year or two..but was never right after that and soon died. Darwin? In retrospect, why didn't he mix it with water and use it as fertilizer. I'm not a smart guy but even I know better...EVERYBODY knows better! Was he not aware of how to handle powder? |
#40
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Boston Bomb triggered by cell phone?
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