"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 12:49:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

Extended hiking, canoe and motorcycle camping trips plus a Native
American neighbor taught me to need less rather than have more.

I learned more about preparedness and survival from any one of Tom
Brown, Jr's books than I did reading that guvvy manual.
_Grandfather_
was really good, about a very savvy Apache who took him under his
wing. It sounds as if you were lucky that way, too. I'm envious.

Don't be. Running water for them was sending the little girl running
to my house to fill a jug from the outside faucet I left on all year
round. The son would be lying in the dirt working under an old pickup
truck without a coat when it was spitting snow. One winter
relatives(?) lived in the wrecked vehicles out back in the woods. I
can live simply, but not like THAT.

On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:47:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 12:49:27 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

Extended hiking, canoe and motorcycle camping trips plus a Native
American neighbor taught me to need less rather than have more.

I learned more about preparedness and survival from any one of Tom
Brown, Jr's books than I did reading that guvvy manual.
_Grandfather_
was really good, about a very savvy Apache who took him under his
wing. It sounds as if you were lucky that way, too. I'm envious.

Don't be. Running water for them was sending the little girl running
to my house to fill a jug from the outside faucet I left on all year
round. The son would be lying in the dirt working under an old pickup
truck without a coat when it was spitting snow. One winter
relatives(?) lived in the wrecked vehicles out back in the woods. I
can live simply, but not like THAT.

Ouch!


--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

I signed onto a Tom Brown email list, one time.
They had some kind of "spirit that flows through
all things" religion. I mentioned "sounds like the
Spirit of the Lord, the third member of the
Godhead" and got pretty badly slammed. I no
longer make any attempt to follow his teachings.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

I learned more about preparedness and survival
from any one of Tom Brown, Jr's books than I
did reading that guvvy manual. _Grandfather_
was really good, about a very savvy Apache who
took him under his wing. It sounds as if you
were lucky that way, too. I'm envious.

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

"Larry Jaques" wrote
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:47:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...Running water for them was sending the little girl running
to my house to fill a jug from the outside faucet I left on all year
round. The son would be lying in the dirt working under an old
pickup
truck without a coat when it was spitting snow. One winter
relatives(?) lived in the wrecked vehicles out back in the woods. I
can live simply, but not like THAT.

Ouch!

In practice the worst that happens here is a week with the roads
blocked by trees that are tangled in the power wires, which keeps us
from clearing them. I can live like the natives if I'm healthy.
Currently I'm trying to work out how to manage if sick or injured, ie
the minimum effort to keep the wood stove supplied and its chimney
clean. Both would be easy except for the snow.

That's one of my big challenge. Living alone, if
I'm sick in bed, nothing happens. A couple times
I've had wicked food poisoning, and been almost
unable to move for two days.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

In practice the worst that happens here is a week with the roads
blocked by trees that are tangled in the power wires, which keeps us
from clearing them. I can live like the natives if I'm healthy.
Currently I'm trying to work out how to manage if sick or injured, ie
the minimum effort to keep the wood stove supplied and its chimney
clean. Both would be easy except for the snow.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:23:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:47:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...Running water for them was sending the little girl running
to my house to fill a jug from the outside faucet I left on all year
round. The son would be lying in the dirt working under an old
pickup
truck without a coat when it was spitting snow. One winter
relatives(?) lived in the wrecked vehicles out back in the woods. I
can live simply, but not like THAT.

Ouch!

In practice the worst that happens here is a week with the roads
blocked by trees that are tangled in the power wires, which keeps us
from clearing them. I can live like the natives if I'm healthy.
Currently I'm trying to work out how to manage if sick or injured, ie
the minimum effort to keep the wood stove supplied and its chimney
clean. Both would be easy except for the snow.

That's just one more good reason not to live in snow country, AFAIC.

I have to figure out a better way to heat my home (during an
emergency) without a wood stove. I took a insert out. I hate smoke,
and 99.9% of all wood stoves and inserts smoke up the house. All
owners of wood stoves (and dogs) say "Oh, my stove doesn't smoke/dog
doesn't bark." and only about 1/2 of one percent are NOT in denial.

I quit smoking 25 years ago next Feb. and my lungs are sensitive to
pollution now. I'm thinking that my little 12v heater might work in
the tent inside the house. Or I might have to get another solar array
and battery to add to the massive 45 full, manly watts I now have.

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

I've found propane and kerosene to be good ways to heat. Kerosene smells,
more.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
I have to figure out a better way to heat my home (during an
emergency) without a wood stove. I took a insert out. I hate smoke,
and 99.9% of all wood stoves and inserts smoke up the house. All
owners of wood stoves (and dogs) say "Oh, my stove doesn't smoke/dog
doesn't bark." and only about 1/2 of one percent are NOT in denial.

I quit smoking 25 years ago next Feb. and my lungs are sensitive to
pollution now. I'm thinking that my little 12v heater might work in
the tent inside the house. Or I might have to get another solar array
and battery to add to the massive 45 full, manly watts I now have.

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

That's just one more good reason not to live in snow country, AFAIC.

Winter is the cheapest and easiest time for me to live. Snow isn't as
annoying as bugs and doesn't spread Lyme disease, West Nile and EEE.
And we don't have poisonous snakes.

I have to figure out a better way to heat my home (during an
emergency) without a wood stove. I took a insert out. I hate smoke,
and 99.9% of all wood stoves and inserts smoke up the house. All
owners of wood stoves (and dogs) say "Oh, my stove doesn't smoke/dog
doesn't bark." and only about 1/2 of one percent are NOT in denial.


So you know their situation better than they do, and THEY are in
denial???

....Or I might have to get another solar array
and battery to add to the massive 45 full, manly watts I now have.

If it's the Harbor Freight panel kit you are lucky to get 30W from it.
The 45W rating is into a 17V battery. They deliver the same current to
a 12V battery.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 07:03:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:23:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:47:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...Running water for them was sending the little girl running
to my house to fill a jug from the outside faucet I left on all year
round. The son would be lying in the dirt working under an old
pickup
truck without a coat when it was spitting snow. One winter
relatives(?) lived in the wrecked vehicles out back in the woods. I
can live simply, but not like THAT.

Ouch!

In practice the worst that happens here is a week with the roads
blocked by trees that are tangled in the power wires, which keeps us
from clearing them. I can live like the natives if I'm healthy.
Currently I'm trying to work out how to manage if sick or injured, ie
the minimum effort to keep the wood stove supplied and its chimney
clean. Both would be easy except for the snow.

That's just one more good reason not to live in snow country, AFAIC.

I have to figure out a better way to heat my home (during an
emergency) without a wood stove. I took a insert out. I hate smoke,
and 99.9% of all wood stoves and inserts smoke up the house. All
owners of wood stoves (and dogs) say "Oh, my stove doesn't smoke/dog
doesn't bark." and only about 1/2 of one percent are NOT in denial.

I quit smoking 25 years ago next Feb. and my lungs are sensitive to
pollution now. I'm thinking that my little 12v heater might work in
the tent inside the house. Or I might have to get another solar array
and battery to add to the massive 45 full, manly watts I now have.


There are a number of ways to heat your living areas..and the big one
is.."minimize them"

In the case of a power failure when your heater blower is down etc
etc...move your living area into the kitchen. Hang blankets or old
sleeping bags from the doors leading to the rest of the house to seal
the kitchen off from the rest of the house. Then use your (gas) stove
to keep the kitchen warm. You DO have a gas stove..right? Or a Gas
Oven?
If not..you could...could be well and truely ****ed when it gets
cold. Pull a couch or recliner into the kitchen to sleep in. You do
have Co2/CO detectors..right? Put one in the kitchen before closing
off the rest of the house.

If you live in an Electric House..you have another complication or 10,
besides higher costs for power in most of the US.

At this point..your best move is to seal off a bedroom with a bathroom
from the rest of the house and after opening a window AND making sure
your CO2/CO detector is working...depending on the outside
temps...either use a Coleman type gas heater or a dozen candles to
heat just that room. Having a bathroom means you can use the terlet
as long as you keep a faucet running and if your water supply freezes
up..you can use the water you filled the bathtub with. You did fill
the bathtube..right?

**** in a 5 gallon bucket and keep adding a bit of kitty litter after
each "deposit" and when its filled, take it out and dump it in the
garden, then reuse the bucket as your toilet.

Try to avoid traveling through the rest of the house very often as you
will be bleeding off heat into the other rooms. "air locking" with
blankets/sleeping bags on both sides of a door helps keep things from
bleeding off.

Move in your food, drinking fluids, hobby materials, books, laptop etc
etc.in the fall. Long before you suddenly find the power off and the
furnace dead.

Hopefully the bedroom will be at the front of your home..so you can
watch the front of the house for activities and issues. Simply put a
layer of painters plastic on the outside of the window and the inside
of the window..so the window doesnt become a heat pump..this assuming
you arent double/triple paned already.

It really doesnt take a lot of "energy" to heat a single bedroom,
particularly a small one. In many cases..2 people can do it with just
body temperature down to about 20F..add a couple dogs/cats and a TV
and it can be warm enough to survive comfortably. If the room is well
insulated, both ceiling, walls and floors..it can be kept quite warm
well down to the minus numbers F. with just body activity. Each human
being generally puts out as much heat as a 200 watt light bulb with
light activity..so all you do is trap it in the room with you.
Remember..heat goes to the ceiling..so it will be colder..often much
colder at floor level. Bunk beds are quite good if you have one. Sleep
on the top bunk. Its going to be the warmest spot in the house.

You DO have pets..right? You should at the least..have a nice big
golden retreiver or other big Warm dog. Someone to talk to, someone
to be an early warning system and a companion in your life.

That being said..you can and SHOULD make a "heat spreader"

Take a 8-12" piece of black plastic PVC or cardboard tube, about 7'
long, and put a 4-6 inch 6 or 12vt muffin fan, or a number of them
and mount them at the top or bottom of the pipe. Stand it up in a
corner and run the fans, so they pull the air down from the ceiling
and push it out at floor level. It doesnt take much fan to get a cycle
going and keeping that warm air moving from the ceiling back to the
floor, where your toes are.

Save your 45 watts for powering the muffin fans, the radio and a LED
lamp or two for reading, popping zits and counting the holes in the
ceiling tiles when fits of boredom set in.

One assumes that you will be using those massive watts to charge at
least a couple 12vt batteries, right? If not..when the sun goes down
or the clouds are overhead...you have zippo for power. Stock up on
batteries, stock up on Coleman fuel and mantals. Add some batteries to
your megawatt power system.

During cold weather..close off that room and open a window and let it
cool off nicely. Then test all of your preps and make sure they will
take care of your situation when the power goes off. Better to do it
when you can experiment, then when you are suddenly in the dark and
nothing has been staged.

Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:


Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Gunner


Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

--
Ned Simmons

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:48:08 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:


Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Gunner


Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

Oh oh. You're going to be culled for saying that.

His speed stories tend to be backed up by claims that they were
confirmed by police radar. What's the equivalent for temperature? It's
probably going to have something to do with Al Roker.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:48:08 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

True, but in northern Minnesota and Michigan that often is the average
temperature for individual days. I happened to visit southern MN for a
couple of winter months ca. 1970, and there was a week where the high
temperature was -30F. Made the tractors sound kind of interesting when
starting up cold. During the '80s every northern MN winter had at least
a few days of -40 to -45 temperatures; I think it's gotten a bit milder
there in recent years, although things like -54F in 2005 and -57F in 1996
still happen.

http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_Embarrass_Embarrass_MN_January.htm l

--
jiw

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:57:50 -0800, whoyakidding
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:48:08 -0500, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:


Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Gunner


Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

Oh oh. You're going to be culled for saying that.


Not to worry, I've got Gunner's advice on how to hole up in my bedroom
all winter with my dogs and guns, while keeping a lookout for bands of
cullers with a siege engine.

His speed stories tend to be backed up by claims that they were
confirmed by police radar. What's the equivalent for temperature? It's
probably going to have something to do with Al Roker.

I figure it'll be some nonsense about wind chill.

--
Ned Simmons

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:55:14 +0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:48:08 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

True, but in northern Minnesota and Michigan that often is the average
temperature for individual days.

So either his number or his definition of "average winter temp during
the day" came out of his ass. I say it's the former because Gunner
insists his IQ is 157. Then again his usual stink was emanating from
that number as well. Gosh what an amazing collection of
misunderstandings he's collected over the years.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

If it's the Harbor Freight panel kit you are lucky to get 30W from
it. The 45W rating is into a 17V battery. They deliver the same
current to a 12V battery.

I took a look at them while hanging laundry. Yes, it does dry in
freezing weather, just like roads and sidewalks.

Each panel is rated at 17.5V, 0.86A. The three add up to 45.15 Watts.
However that current into a 12.6V lead-acid battery is 32.5W. The
current is about the same into a short circuit, such as an ammeter.
They are stiff current sources (photon-to-electron converters) with a
compliance voltage around 22V. The charger in the kit is a series
switch that opens at 14.4V to prevent severe overcharging.
jsw

On 12/31/2012 8:48 AM, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:


Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Gunner


Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

mark gummer dwieber is from Grayling, MI
(https://www.facebook.com/GunnerAsch?ref=ts&fref=ts). The average low
temperature for the two coldest months of the year is +8F. The record
low ever is -42F.
http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...nthly/USMI0349.

gummer has never experienced -80F anywhere near Grayling, MI.

Look at the stupidity of what he writes: "an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day." If the day was a
"warm day", then the recorded temperature is, by definition, not the
"average winter temperature."

Once again, we catch gummer lying. It's what he does, because he is an
extremist, and in the leaden, plodding prose of his own sig:

The methodology of [extremists] has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw [sic]
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie


This is gummer's big problem. He's one of those boastful chronic liars
who always has to "top" everyone's story. And that, of course, is a big
part of what makes him an extremist. My younger brother is a lot like
that, although without the same political extremism; but everything with
him is always an outlandish claim about the "most" or the "biggest" or
the "worst" or something, always intended to aggrandize himself - just
like gummer.


--
Any more lip out of you and I'll haul off and let you have it...if you
know what's good for you, you won't monkey around with Fred C. Dobbs.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:55:57 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

That's just one more good reason not to live in snow country, AFAIC.

Winter is the cheapest and easiest time for me to live. Snow isn't as
annoying as bugs and doesn't spread Lyme disease, West Nile and EEE.
And we don't have poisonous snakes.

Maybe not, but it'll kill you a whole lot quicker than bugs will,
given any chance at all. I prefer less deadly climes.


I have to figure out a better way to heat my home (during an
emergency) without a wood stove. I took a insert out. I hate smoke,
and 99.9% of all wood stoves and inserts smoke up the house. All
owners of wood stoves (and dogs) say "Oh, my stove doesn't smoke/dog
doesn't bark." and only about 1/2 of one percent are NOT in denial.


So you know their situation better than they do, and THEY are in
denial???

I visit their homes and can't breathe. Or I see pictures taken in
their homes with the smoke in the air. Isn't that enough?

As for dog noise, I've endured more errant mutts than a man should
have to in a lifetime, and I'm not half done. When asked, every
single person I've talked to (not just most) have indicated that their
neighbors say "My dog doesn't bark" when they do. They also admit to
having said that when they know better.

I firmly stand by my statements to that effect and apologize to the
three exceptions to the rule in existence today. Kudos to them.


....Or I might have to get another solar array
and battery to add to the massive 45 full, manly watts I now have.

If it's the Harbor Freight panel kit you are lucky to get 30W from it.
The 45W rating is into a 17V battery. They deliver the same current to
a 12V battery.

It is. I have no hard and fast ideas as to what it can do until I get
it outside and working, with everything set up. Luckily, the LED
lamps sip current very, very slowly. It will recharge my phone and
ereader, power a small fan in the summer, etc. 'Taint a grid
replacer, by any means.

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

On 12/31/2012 11:21 AM, whoyakidding wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:55:14 +0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:48:08 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

True, but in northern Minnesota and Michigan that often is the average
temperature for individual days.

So either his number or his definition of "average winter temp during
the day" came out of his ass. I say it's the former because Gunner
insists his IQ is 157.

HA HA HA HA HA! That's hilarious! I actually don't think gummer is
*un*-intelligent, but there's no way he has an IQ that high - just no
****ing way.

See my other post about gummer's claim about the "average" winter day
temperature where he grew up. It's complete bull**** - the usually
extravagant gummer boasting and lying. Believe me, no one who knows
gummer in person believes a thing he says - not one ****ing thing. Most
guys know a few boys like gummer, and either you put up with it because
you like something else about the boy - or perhaps you find the bull****
amusing - or, you find the bull**** insufferable and don't have more
than minimal contact with the bull**** artist. gummer is such a
monumental ****bag in these groups, I have to think most people who know
him in person fall into the minimal contact camp.


Then again his usual stink was emanating from
that number as well. Gosh what an amazing collection of
misunderstandings he's collected over the years.



--
Any more lip out of you and I'll haul off and let you have it...if you
know what's good for you, you won't monkey around with Fred C. Dobbs.

On 12/31/2012 12:48 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:55:57 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

That's just one more good reason not to live in snow country, AFAIC.

Winter is the cheapest and easiest time for me to live. Snow isn't as
annoying as bugs and doesn't spread Lyme disease, West Nile and EEE.
And we don't have poisonous snakes.

Maybe not, but it'll kill you a whole lot quicker than bugs will,
given any chance at all. I prefer less deadly climes.

Winter is the reason modern civilization and market economies developed
so much more in northerly latitudes. First of all, surviving cold
weather requires greater industry (in the meaning of industriousness)
and planning. Secondly, and paradoxically, keeping yourself warm enough
to keep living - and producing - is cheaper than keeping yourself cool
enough in hot climates.


--
Any more lip out of you and I'll haul off and let you have it...if you
know what's good for you, you won't monkey around with Fred C. Dobbs.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 07:03:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:23:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:47:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...Running water for them was sending the little girl running
to my house to fill a jug from the outside faucet I left on all year
round. The son would be lying in the dirt working under an old
pickup
truck without a coat when it was spitting snow. One winter
relatives(?) lived in the wrecked vehicles out back in the woods. I
can live simply, but not like THAT.

Ouch!

In practice the worst that happens here is a week with the roads
blocked by trees that are tangled in the power wires, which keeps us
from clearing them. I can live like the natives if I'm healthy.
Currently I'm trying to work out how to manage if sick or injured, ie
the minimum effort to keep the wood stove supplied and its chimney
clean. Both would be easy except for the snow.

That's just one more good reason not to live in snow country, AFAIC.

I have to figure out a better way to heat my home (during an
emergency) without a wood stove. I took a insert out. I hate smoke,
and 99.9% of all wood stoves and inserts smoke up the house. All
owners of wood stoves (and dogs) say "Oh, my stove doesn't smoke/dog
doesn't bark." and only about 1/2 of one percent are NOT in denial.

I quit smoking 25 years ago next Feb. and my lungs are sensitive to
pollution now. I'm thinking that my little 12v heater might work in
the tent inside the house. Or I might have to get another solar array
and battery to add to the massive 45 full, manly watts I now have.


There are a number of ways to heat your living areas..and the big one
is.."minimize them"

Ayup. My thought was to put up the tent in the smallest room, my
office.


In the case of a power failure when your heater blower is down etc
etc...move your living area into the kitchen. Hang blankets or old
sleeping bags from the doors leading to the rest of the house to seal
the kitchen off from the rest of the house. Then use your (gas) stove
to keep the kitchen warm. You DO have a gas stove..right? Or a Gas
Oven?
If not..you could...could be well and truely ****ed when it gets
cold. Pull a couch or recliner into the kitchen to sleep in. You do
have Co2/CO detectors..right? Put one in the kitchen before closing
off the rest of the house.

If you live in an Electric House..you have another complication or 10,
besides higher costs for power in most of the US.

Gas furnace, electric everything else. And I'm on a well, so water is
what I keep around or can drain from the water heater.


At this point..your best move is to seal off a bedroom with a bathroom
from the rest of the house and after opening a window AND making sure
your CO2/CO detector is working...depending on the outside
temps...either use a Coleman type gas heater or a dozen candles to
heat just that room. Having a bathroom means you can use the terlet
as long as you keep a faucet running and if your water supply freezes
up..you can use the water you filled the bathtub with. You did fill
the bathtube..right?

**** in a 5 gallon bucket and keep adding a bit of kitty litter after
each "deposit" and when its filled, take it out and dump it in the
garden, then reuse the bucket as your toilet.
I need to get one of those nice little terlit seats for a 5gal bucket.
I saw one for $8 somewhere, and I have plenty of 13gal kitchen bags to
line it and cover it in between uses.



Try to avoid traveling through the rest of the house very often as you
will be bleeding off heat into the other rooms. "air locking" with
blankets/sleeping bags on both sides of a door helps keep things from
bleeding off.

I have some zipper kits for plastic sheeting which might help that.


Move in your food, drinking fluids, hobby materials, books, laptop etc
etc.in the fall. Long before you suddenly find the power off and the
furnace dead.

That's far from possible in most cases, Gunner.


Hopefully the bedroom will be at the front of your home..so you can
watch the front of the house for activities and issues. Simply put a
layer of painters plastic on the outside of the window and the inside
of the window..so the window doesnt become a heat pump..this assuming
you arent double/triple paned already.

It really doesnt take a lot of "energy" to heat a single bedroom,
particularly a small one. In many cases..2 people can do it with just
body temperature down to about 20F..add a couple dogs/cats and a TV

Sorry, no dogs, cats, (or TV, without electricity.)


and it can be warm enough to survive comfortably. If the room is well
insulated, both ceiling, walls and floors..it can be kept quite warm
well down to the minus numbers F. with just body activity. Each human
being generally puts out as much heat as a 200 watt light bulb with
light activity..so all you do is trap it in the room with you.
Remember..heat goes to the ceiling..so it will be colder..often much
colder at floor level. Bunk beds are quite good if you have one. Sleep
on the top bunk. Its going to be the warmest spot in the house.

You DO have pets..right? You should at the least..have a nice big

No, I don't believe in children, pets, or other slaves. gd&r


golden retreiver or other big Warm dog. Someone to talk to, someone
to be an early warning system and a companion in your life.

Barking menace? No thanks. They require more food, more water, and
daily trips outside to crap. Unnecessary.


That being said..you can and SHOULD make a "heat spreader"

Take a 8-12" piece of black plastic PVC or cardboard tube, about 7'
long, and put a 4-6 inch 6 or 12vt muffin fan, or a number of them
and mount them at the top or bottom of the pipe. Stand it up in a
corner and run the fans, so they pull the air down from the ceiling
and push it out at floor level. It doesnt take much fan to get a cycle
going and keeping that warm air moving from the ceiling back to the
floor, where your toes are.

Good idea. I've seen these for homes and have suggested them to
clients with cathedral ceilings to help them save heating bills.


Save your 45 watts for powering the muffin fans, the radio and a LED
lamp or two for reading, popping zits and counting the holes in the
ceiling tiles when fits of boredom set in.

I have battery powered ham radio and weather radio. And plenty of LED
lamps, booklights, floods, etc.


One assumes that you will be using those massive watts to charge at
least a couple 12vt batteries, right? If not..when the sun goes down
or the clouds are overhead...you have zippo for power. Stock up on
batteries, stock up on Coleman fuel and mantals. Add some batteries to
your megawatt power system.

Coleman fuel is so godawful expensive I gave away my lantern when I
saw it at $43/gal on Amazon. I have an alcohol stove, a propane
burner stove, a small propane BBQ, and a 20# propane tank which I keep
full. A single (so far) #29 deep cycle battery is connected to the
solar array for electrical storage.


During cold weather..close off that room and open a window and let it
cool off nicely. Then test all of your preps and make sure they will
take care of your situation when the power goes off. Better to do it
when you can experiment, then when you are suddenly in the dark and
nothing has been staged.

Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely.

OK.


I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Yeouch!

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:55:57 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
Winter ...

Maybe not, but it'll kill you a whole lot quicker than bugs will,
given any chance at all. I prefer less deadly climes.

You live where there are no cars, stairs or pools?

We grew up knowing the cold is dangerous and most suburban/rural men
at least wear enough warm clothing to deal with it. I watched Halley's
Comet on a frigid night on a ski mountain in Mass, then watched the
city boys in jeans and short jackets freeze their butts off waiting
for the chair lift down.

"My dog doesn't bark"

Zat ees not my dog.

....Or I might have to get another solar array
and battery to add to the massive 45 full, manly watts I now have.

If it's the Harbor Freight panel kit you are lucky to get 30W from
it.
The 45W rating is into a 17V battery. They deliver the same current
to
a 12V battery.

It is. I have no hard and fast ideas as to what it can do until I
get
it outside and working, with everything set up.

Reasonably priced meters:
http://www.futurlec.com/Panel_Meters.shtml
I have the APM3A, 3ADC analog meter in series with the charger, and
another (surplus) one I can use to aim the panels for peak output.

During our last long outage I could run this laptop or a small TV
about two hours a day from the panels, enough to keep up with the
local weather forecast and NWS radar, which was more useful when I
needed to know whether to repair or cover up roof damage. The image
tells a lot more than "scattered".

jsw

Lot of good information at that site. Wish more people would do all of that.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

This is how the government knows you should prepa
http://www.ready.gov/are-you-ready-guide

There are a number of ways to heat your living areas..and the big one
is.."minimize them"

Ayup. My thought was to put up the tent in the smallest room, my
office.
CY: Could help.

In the case of a power failure when your heater blower is down etc
etc...move your living area into the kitchen. Hang blankets or old
sleeping bags from the doors leading to the rest of the house to seal
the kitchen off from the rest of the house. Then use your (gas) stove
to keep the kitchen warm. You DO have a gas stove..right? Or a Gas
Oven?
If not..you could...could be well and truely ****ed when it gets
cold. Pull a couch or recliner into the kitchen to sleep in. You do
have Co2/CO detectors..right? Put one in the kitchen before closing
off the rest of the house.

If you live in an Electric House..you have another complication or 10,
besides higher costs for power in most of the US.

Gas furnace, electric everything else. And I'm on a well, so water is
what I keep around or can drain from the water heater.
CY: I save juice and soda bottles. Fill, stack, put in cabinets.

heat just that room. Having a bathroom means you can use the terlet
as long as you keep a faucet running and if your water supply freezes
up..you can use the water you filled the bathtub with. You did fill
the bathtube..right?
CY: A tsp of "RV holding tank fluid" makes the toilet a lot more pleasant.


**** in a 5 gallon bucket and keep adding a bit of kitty litter after
each "deposit" and when its filled, take it out and dump it in the
garden, then reuse the bucket as your toilet.
I need to get one of those nice little terlit seats for a 5gal bucket.
I saw one for $8 somewhere, and I have plenty of 13gal kitchen bags to
line it and cover it in between uses.
CY: Some RV fluid helps, a lot. And fill the bathtube.



It really doesnt take a lot of "energy" to heat a single bedroom,
particularly a small one. In many cases..2 people can do it with just
body temperature down to about 20F..add a couple dogs/cats and a TV

Sorry, no dogs, cats, (or TV, without electricity.)

CY: Oh, well.



That being said..you can and SHOULD make a "heat spreader"

Take a 8-12" piece of black plastic PVC or cardboard tube, about 7'
long, and put a 4-6 inch 6 or 12vt muffin fan, or a number of them
and mount them at the top or bottom of the pipe. Stand it up in a
corner and run the fans, so they pull the air down from the ceiling
and push it out at floor level. It doesnt take much fan to get a cycle
going and keeping that warm air moving from the ceiling back to the
floor, where your toes are.

Good idea. I've seen these for homes and have suggested them to
clients with cathedral ceilings to help them save heating bills.
CY:Sounds good.


Save your 45 watts for powering the muffin fans, the radio and a LED
lamp or two for reading, popping zits and counting the holes in the
ceiling tiles when fits of boredom set in.

I have battery powered ham radio and weather radio. And plenty of LED
lamps, booklights, floods, etc.
CY: Good man.

One assumes that you will be using those massive watts to charge at
least a couple 12vt batteries, right? If not..when the sun goes down
or the clouds are overhead...you have zippo for power. Stock up on
batteries, stock up on Coleman fuel and mantals. Add some batteries to
your megawatt power system.

Coleman fuel is so godawful expensive I gave away my lantern when I
saw it at $43/gal on Amazon. I have an alcohol stove, a propane
burner stove, a small propane BBQ, and a 20# propane tank which I keep
full. A single (so far) #29 deep cycle battery is connected to the
solar array for electrical storage.
CY: Camping stores, fuel less expensive there. Kmart, Walmart.

During cold weather..close off that room and open a window and let it
cool off nicely. Then test all of your preps and make sure they will
take care of your situation when the power goes off. Better to do it
when you can experiment, then when you are suddenly in the dark and
nothing has been staged.

Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely.

OK.
CY: Other sources of heat include gas range, candles, oil wick lamps,
camping fuel or propane lamps. Propane torch, camping cook stove.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:55:14 +0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:48:08 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

True, but in northern Minnesota and Michigan that often is the average
temperature for individual days. I happened to visit southern MN for a
couple of winter months ca. 1970, and there was a week where the high
temperature was -30F. Made the tractors sound kind of interesting when
starting up cold. During the '80s every northern MN winter had at least
a few days of -40 to -45 temperatures; I think it's gotten a bit milder
there in recent years, although things like -54F in 2005 and -57F in 1996
still happen.

http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_Embarrass_Embarrass_MN_January.htm l


Ayup.

then there is snow fall "averages" as well. Growing up in Michigans
UP...average snow fall per winter is 220 inches. A bit more than 20
feet. Fortunately..it tends to pack down a bit.

http://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.c...in-n-michigan/

http://icons-ak.wunderground.com/dat...owLvr/1092.jpg

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/DeerDeepSnow.JPG

http://www.jaxrabbit.com/images/Weather01.jpg

http://csumc.wisc.edu/exhibit/Heikki...p_image011.jpg

http://csumc.wisc.edu/exhibit/Heikki...line/2006.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11780965@N06/5024563781/

G
http://amysangster.com/wp-content/up...9/moresnow.jpg

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/col.../UP%20snow.jpg

http://media.photobucket.com/image/r...d17/img045.jpg

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com...9u_eokisswXUD/

Shrug...which is why I now live in Californias high desert.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

: Disinformer's Gambit


In the game of chess there exists a term;
which describes a maneuver, a stratagem, and a ploy;
using different pieces working together, to accomplish a secret purpose.
This is called a gambit.

Those who hope to build totalitarian control over freedom loving people,
also use many gambits. BUT, the chess player has the advantage of always
knowing which pieces are on the other side. Those who would defend liberty
have no such luxury.

The most treacherous player in the gambit is the false patriot.
The false patriot will present himself as a defender of liberty,
BUT he will spend most of his time attacking the defenders of liberty, under
numerous pretenses.
The false patriot will attempt to re-direct attention in every direction
EXCEPT at those, who are building tyranny; an entire race, a religion, a
large group with a few problems, or even against patriots.

This is essentially the very old military strategy of the creation a "decoy
to draw enemy fire." The ultimate success of this deception is to cause
defenders of liberty to "fire" on non-combatants, or even to "fire" on their
own friends, and allies. In addition, the false patriot will neutralize the
efforts of the defenders of liberty. The false patriot, like every other
player in the gambit, will neutralize the efforts of the defenders of
liberty by:
1. Deceiving the defenders of liberty into supporting hoaxes.
2. Dividing the defenders of liberty into fighting each other by
creating strife among patriots.
3. Deceiving the defenders of liberty into creating class struggle by
promoting ethnic hatred.
4. Attempting to waste the time of patriots, by forcing them to respond
to personal attacks, or endless debate about trivia.
5. Using multiple aliases to create the appearance that there is
someone, who believes them to be credible.
6. ABOVE ALL: Accusing the most effective patriots of being false
opposition.
THE GOLDEN RULE OF DISINFORMERS:
Always accuse your adversary of whatever is true about yourself.

It is VERY simple.
Those who spend their time fighting tyranny, are patriots.

Those who spend their time fighting patriots are working for the advancement
of tyranny.

The false patriot will generally proclaim himself to be a religious zealot,
but he will not adher to the principles of his proclaimed religion, in his
own actions. He might even; incomprehensibly, be an ally of another player
in the gambit; who is an admitted atheist, or a socialist.
The false patriot; and those whom he deceives into promoting hoaxes,
will reduce the credibility of all patriots. Those who have heard
outlandishly ridiculous "conspiracy theories" will have a tendancy to
dismiss all "conspiracy theories" without serious examination.

The admitted atheist, or socialist will supply the most fervent, and
obvious, opposition to the defenders of liberty. This player, in the gambit,
will make a strong frontal attack on everything that the defenders of
liberty do.
The admitted atheist, or socialist will implement the same goals; that are
listed above The admitted atheist, or socialist will play on the existance
of outlandishly ridiculous "conspiracy theories" to encourage people to
dismiss all "conspiracy theories" without serious examination.
The admitted atheist, or socialist will infest patriotic, and religious,
groups for no apparent reason. The main reason is to disrupt, to get the
group deleted, or to waste the time of patriots.

Even though DISINFORMERS make it a practice of accusing the most effective
patriots of being false opposition, you will notice that there are certain
admitted government apologists, who are never accused. This is because
certain admitted government apologists are also players in the gambit.

The admitted government apologist will attempt to portray the defenders of
liberty as subversives, as unreliable, and as outlandishly mentally
unstable.
The admitted government apologist will play on the existance of outlandishly
ridiculous "conspiracy theories" to encourage people to dismiss all
"conspiracy theories" without serious examination. The admitted government
apologist will use documents from the FBI, or other government sources, as
his authority.

Another player in the gambit, is the pretended neutral. The pretended
neutral will take almost none of the above actions, but will work in the
background, until a vital move is needed. The pretended neutral will
occasionally vouch for the other players in the gambit. The pretended
neutral may even be the moderator of a group. When the pretended neutral is
the moderator of a group, he will take no action, as long as the other
players in the gambit are "holding their own". If the other players in the
gambit are NOT "holding their own", THEN he will intervene; perhaps even by
banning the most effective defenders of liberty.

The most effective defenders of liberty will be caught between all of these
different players in the gambit. One dead "give away" is the fact that these
different players in the gambit frequently are unable to conceal their
support for one another; in spite of their alleged differences. The alleged
religious zealot/patriot might be great friends with the admitted
atheist/socialist. The false patriot; who is always accusing the most
effective patriots of being false opposition, might be great friends with
the admitted government apologist.

If you will study the tactics used by the FBI COINTELPRO program.
THEN you will recognize FBI COINTELPRO immediately.

Visit:

http://bcn.boulder.co.us/environment...entknocks.html

Take note of the following paragraph:

"The FBI COINTELPRO program was initiated in 1956. Its purpose, as
described later by FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, was "to expose, disrupt,
misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize activities" of those
individuals and organizations whose ideas or goals he opposed. Tactics
included: falsely labeling individuals as informants; infiltrating groups
with persons instructed to disrupt the group; sending anonymous or forged
letters designed to promote strife between groups; initiating politically
motivated IRS investigations; carrying out burglaries of offices and
unlawful wiretaps; and disseminating to other government agencies and to
the media unlawfully obtained derogatory information on individuals and
groups."

If you understand the meaning of the tactic
"to expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize
activities"
you will understand that the person who is most likely of being a Fed,
is the one who involves patriots in activities that have no effect on those
who are building tyranny, and activities that will destroy the credibility
of the patriots.

Those who are building tyranny would love to convince people that we are all
a bunch of paranoid nuts,
so that we will we unable to warn people about the building of tyranny.

Those who are building tyranny
would be more capable of convincing people that we are
paranoid nuts, if they could convince a segment of the patriots to run
around telling people that the clouds, and the street signs,
are out to get us,
or that we should ban water.

If you understand the meaning of the tactic
"infiltrating groups with persons instructed to disrupt the group;
sending anonymous or forged letters designed to promote strife between
groups"
OR OF:
"disseminating to other government agencies and to
the media unlawfully obtained derogatory information on individuals and
groups."
THEN you will know that a campaign of personal attacks
on the real patriots is a part of the FBI COINTELPRO program.

If you understand the meaning of the tactic of
falsely labeling individuals as informants
THEN you will know that the person;
who is most likely to be a fed,
is the one who calls the real patriot a fed.
It is a common tactic of FBI COINTELPRO to try to
be THE FIRST ONE MAKE THE ACCUSATION.
THE GOLDEN RULE OF DISINFORMERS:
Always accuse your adversary of whatever is true about yourself.

Consequences



I can't say I really knew Jason, he moved to the area, because he
could (his words) our mail boxes were at a common road Jct. and I
would run into him many times as we got our mail, I knew he
designed computer programs for a livelihood . When we chewed the
fat a little waiting for the mail lady he often spoke of what
could be best described as the impending collapse of our country if
not the world. I joined right in Things been going to hell around
here since 1930's my dad spent his life getting ready for the next
depression and hell we hadn't recovered from the first near as I
could tell as one old timer put it "didn't know when it came and
couldn't tell when it left" I noticed Jason got a lot of military
supply and survival catalogs ,subscriptions to SWAT, Soldier of
Fortune , Knife Fighter and I noticed he dressed a little
different ,They call it desert digital camouflage ,which was a bit
of a mystery to me since this the Okanogan Highlands and we live in
the timber belt , Oh and you should of seen the survival knife he
would whip out to open his mail , made me feel plumb civilized with
my little 3" Buck knife. Jason often wore a gun and had others in
his Land Rover, now I like guns always have, always have some
around, so I set up and took note of Jason's Custom .45 , and
his extended magazine 12 ga. And lord he had some kind of rifle
that had so much stuff hung on it from lights to radiation
detector,I couldn't of operated it if you gave me a week ,now I
know what "Buck Fever" is and how it addles you, I can only imagine
what a chore that outfit would be if someone was shooting at
you ,which they say can be stressful and disconcerting . I
digress ,but maybe it helps flesh Jason out a little ,as far as
physical characteristic's Pillsbury dough boy comes to mind ,
which is kind of surprising given I know the Freight driver said he
hoped to hell nobody else ordered one of those Nautilus home gyms
after he delivered Jason's

I'm kind of old fashioned I guess, because Jason often remarked how
he had really told somebody off "flamed" is what he called it on
the internet, kind of real nasty-gram so to speak, I didn't think
that polite and in my upbringing you did that face on settled it
straight up not from behind a computer, but things have changed
anyway I thought they had. Till Jason remarked how he really gave
old So &So a flaming, well what Jason didn't know is I knew old So-
So, and he didn't live all that far away,he was an old mountaineer
or Hill- Billy transplanted here 50 some years ago from the
Appalachians and it was widely believed he left a widow or two and
some lawmen glad he was gone . He worked in the local sawmill for
years and trapped and some say made fine whiskey, not at all
obnoxious or pushy ,but not timid either, as more than a few found
out at the Wauconda Grange dances, when they challenged old Cy .
Anyway, Cy in later years found he a had a knack for drawing and
bit of a homespun wit and so started doing cartoons for a local
paper and I guess Jason took one personal as it referred to some
types of folks that were moving in , so he flamed Ole Cy. I didn't
say a word, cause, well, my Daddy always said "Don't get between a
man and his learning experience" but I had a feeling this was
going to turn out bad. But Autumn stretched into first good snow
and I kind of forgot the whole thing , till I'm down shoveling out
the mail and Clete the county Sheriff comes down the road and pulls
over so the Ambulance can get up Jason's road . "What the Hell is
going on, Clete?" I asked. "Damnest thing I ever saw", Clete said.
"Don't know what to make of it, that fella Jason must've been
fooling around with an old time Bear Trap. Big old thing with rusty
teeth. Anyway UPS driver found him there by his SUV bled out, must
thrashed around considerable. Too hard to tell what happened."

"Well, the old timers say the Trap you set yourself is the most
dangerous. For sure." Clete said, and smiled.

 From: "Stormin Mormon"
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:04:34 -0400

Ice Storm 2003
NY, USA
Lessons Learned

April 03, Thursday, 2003
News radio people were talking about freezing
rain in the forecast.
** Lesson: When the radio people talk about bad
weather, go immediately to buy groceries and gas
up the vehicle. And the gas cans. Better than that
is to keep groceries at home, and couple gallons
gas in the shed.

April 04, Friday, 2003
Freezing rain, last night. Went out in the morning,
and had to scrape the ice off my truck. I have power.
The freezing rain stuck the doors shut. Glad I had
a scraper, in the house. Lot of work to get the
door of my truck open. I ran the motor, the heater
helped melt the ice off the windows.

Called my parents. Their power had gone out about
2 AM last night. Talked to Mom. Dad had put his big
flash light on the kitchen table, and pointed it
towards the ceiling for light. He also went to the
cellar to wire the generator into the furnace. Dad
got the generator out, and had it running for a
moment or two. And then the motor jammed, and the
pull cord won't pull. He decided about 6 PM that
it was cold enough to need a fire in the fireplace,
and about that moment the power came back on.
** Lesson: Run the generator every year, even if
you're sure it works fine.

Got a call from Jason, a bachelor friend of mine
who doesn't drive. His power is out. But the
natural gas was OK. He was low on groceries,
so we planned to go for lunch and shopping.
** Lesson: Keep groceries in the house. Shop
before you run out.

I called a bunch of people from church, and other
friends. A couple sounded suspicious. "Why are you
calling?" Well, I'm friendly and outgoing. Several
people were without power, but they were all "doing
OK". Radio news guys say about 50,000 people without
power.
** Lesson: Call a few people and get the word out.
But don't spend all day on the telephone trying to
be nice to people. You're wasting your time.

I made several telephone calls. The diner Jason
and I usually go to was without power, and I did
manage to find a grocery store which had power.
And an eat in cafe.
** Lesson: In storms, call to see if the restaurant
and stores are open.

I loaded bags of salt and gravel into the back of my
truck, figured that would be the major need. I took out
my heating and AC tools. I drove to his place to take
him to the store. The trip took about twice as long as
usual, the traffic is running very slow. Many traffic
lights were out. But regardless of anything else, the
State Thruway had power, and was still collecting
tolls. Hmm.
** Lesson: Travel takes twice as long in storms. And
the State still wants their highway tolls.

The walk in and out from the parking lot was slow,
the parking lot was very slippery. And we got freezing
rained on. But it was nice to get him home with food.
We got food that would cook on a gas range, the microwave
won't work without power. He also bought four submarine
sandwiches, which was a great idea. "no cook" food.

We got back to Jason's house, and his dad suggested
that he go to the firehall, they have power there, and
Jason could be safe and all.

I went home, expecting to find my power on. By
this time, I was cold and tired from braving
the weather, and I was tired. I headed home,
very slowly. As I was coming into the trailer
park, it sure did look darker than usual. I mean,
totally dark. Arrived home 7 PM to find that the
power had gone out at 5:53. I have a plug in clock
with mechanical dial face, for moments like this.
** Lesson: Just because you have power NOW doesn't
mean you will have power LATER. Keep a written
list when you make phonecalls to check on people.
Leave lots of space next to or between their names
on the list for updates Things change, and you
will want to change your notes.

My neighbor Al was standing out by the street,
watching everything. He had a 2D Eveready flash
light which was growing very dim. I offered him a
couple batteries, but he didn't want them. Al
caught me up to date on the neighborhood news.
There was a branch down behind our trailers, and
we went out to look. The branch was balanced on
the power wires. I realize that Al is the
"Neighborhood Watchman" and is trying to stay
up to date on who has power, and so on.
** Lesson: Most neighborhoods have a Watchman who
wants to know everyone's business. This surprised
me, I thought Ernie was our watchman, but he stayed
indoors and out of sight most of the time.

Across the street, Kenny and his wife are doing OK
with a couple burners on the stove. Kenny wishes he
still had his kerosene heater. I pondered the
question, but the Spirit said it didn't matter if
I offered to loan him one of mine. I have two.
I chose not to offer.

Ursula, elderly and frail, was very cold. She was
worried about the burners on the stove, but more
worried about it being cold.

Ernie, on the other side of me, had a coleman
lantern, and was doing fairly well.

Skip, the truck driver, wasn't home at the moment.
He'd driven to a mall that had power.

I went home to work the phone. Everyone seems to
be OK. One gal I talked to, Sharleen, started a
sentence "if it gets too cold" and I expected
she'd say "you can come over here". But to my
disappointement, she just reminded me that we had
a couple church meetings tomorrow, and I could go to
the church to warm up. Dan's house is covered in
ice, and so he's out in the garage assembling the
generator they bought in March 1999. Needs something
to do.
** Lesson: Not everyone out there welcomes you,
and wants to invite you over. Remember who
invites you over, they are your friends. Remember
who calls YOU, because they are your friends.

More telephone calls. I reminded a lot of people
"have generator will travel" but no one was
interested.
** Lesson: Don't waste a lot of time on the phone
offering to give your services away.

I lit my kerosene heater, and went to bed. I
listened at the back door for a few minutes. The
darkness combined with the sound of branches
cracking and popping around the neighborhood. It
was spooky.
** Lesson: No matter how comfortable you are,
Mother Nature is still very powerful.

Saturday April 05, 2003
Woke up to the sound of branches popping. I looked
out the door, and realzie that a lot of the noise
was pieces of ice falling off the trees. It was 60F
in my bedroom. Not bad, at all. I use my setback
thermostat to run it down to 64 at night, so I'm
used to it being cold in the morning. Got up, and pour
the bath tub full of warm water, and warm up that
way. Breakfast. Still have milk and some ice cubes.
** Lesson: Ice cubes and refrigeration are wondeful.
In the winter you can put your milk out on the back
step.

Radio says 67K people without power. Someone found a
creative way to warm the house. He hooked a garden
hose to his laundry sink, and snaked the hose around
the floor of his house. Ran hot water thruogh the hose,
and into the bath tub. The hot water hose helped warm
the house. Very clever. Must remember that.

I had breakfast, and decided to try to find something
useful to do. At about 7:30 AM, the tree guys came
down the street. Saw up branches fallen, and feed
them into the chipper behind the truck. One of my
neighbors had a branch fall through the back
window of the son's car. I had no damage to my
trailer or vehicles.

I talked to Skip today. He had a battery radio,
but no batteries. He also has a gas range, but
no pots or pans. I went home, and got him a pan
out of my camping kit, and some batteries for
his radio.

I mentioned gasoline to Skip, and he told me
which gas stations had power today. The van was
low on gas, so I threw two gascans in the back
and took them along. I found a couple gas
stations without power, and one which had power,
and long lines of cars waiting to gas up. I got in
line. At 1.73, I was able to fill the two gascans,
and then put some in the tank before the pump shut
me down at $50. But it sure is nice to have some
gasoline. But fifty bucks! Wow!

I made a few more calls, and found one friend of
mine who had borrowed a Honda generator from his
brother, and the generator refused to start. Went
there, and it started with a shot of ether, and a
change of gasoline. Can't kill a Honda. It was
very quiet, too. He had sent his son to go fill
up the gascan, and the Suburban. His son came
back much later, there was a very long line of
cars waiting to buy gasoline.
** Lesson: Stock several cans of ether starting
spray at home. You may need it. Maybe for some
one else, even.

I learn that the reason he was pursuing a generator
is because the cellar had flooded without a sump
pump. About two inches water. They were able to
move some of the water by buckets, but that was a
very slow process. Another friend had a 12 volt
sump pump which wasn't doing much good. The fire
department came down the street at that moment.
They let us plug into their generator for a few
moments to run the sump. Finally, we did get the
sump wired into his brothers generator, and that
helped a lot. They also have a Bissel carpet
cleaner which we used to extract much of the water
out of the cellar carpet. The carpet is a total
loss, no surprise.

While in the dark cellar, I blew the bulb on my
2AA minimag. Had to find my way out of the cellar,
and up to the truck to get another bulb. I've been
considering the Opalec conversion, to make my mini
mag work on LED light bulbs.

I also wired a plug into the furnace wiring, and
they can now run the furnace on the generator.
** Lesson: Even if the home owner has tools, go
get your own tool box. Sure is faster if you know
what tools you have, and all the wirenuts and parts.

About this time, some friends came over. Their
house had power on one leg of the 220 power
feed. The furnace is on the dead side. I went
to go switch a couple breakers, and put the
furnace onto the power.

We did get a dinner invite with one of his
sons, whose family has power. That was much
appreciated.

I came home and tried to see by the light of a
fluorescent lantern that takes 6 D cells. I
learn that cheapie carbon batteries are near to
useless, the only last a couple hours. Resolved
to buy only alkaline batteries in the future.


Sunday April 06, 2003
Decided to go to the city to attend church. One
of the buildings had power. Many traffic lights
are without power. People are mostly courteous,
and treating them all as four way stops (as the
law requires). Stopped at my parents to use the
computer and wash laundry. I made a couple phone
calls, and it turns out my lunch invite had been
delayed. The Spirit said to visit a couple friends.
I did, and found them cold in the house, it was
40F indoors.

Radio says that up to 145,000 people are
without power. Three or four counties have
been declared "state of emergency, no unnecessary
travel".

Went to my dinner invite, which was wonderful.
And then went home to get my generator. And no
big surprise, my generator wouldn't start. I'd
bought it in early 1999, and had run it, and
then put it in the box and had not run it since
then. I gave it a shot of ether, on the paper air
filter. It ran on ether vapors. Several shots of
ether later, the carb diaphram shook loose, and
started to deliver gas.

Went to Scott's and wired the generator into his
furnace. About an hour's run time, and the house
came up from 40F to 69F, which was major improvement.

I got home about 11 PM to find my own house about
47F temperature indoors. I lit the kerosene, and
it was about 52 in my bedroom by the time I went
to bed. I tried to heat the house by running the
shower on full hot with the bathroom door open.
it was nice, but I set off the smoke detector,
and had to take the battery out for about an
hour. It is a 2001 dated battery, I've got to
change that some day.

Monday April 07, 2003
Woke to find it very cold in the trailer. I
decided that if I could run the generator for
others, I could run it for myself, too. I got
my box of electrical tools, and wired the
furnace. I put generator out on the porch, and
chained it to the railing. An hour of generator
allowed me to check my email, and also to warm
the house a bit.

I went to ask the neighbors if they would like
me to wire into their funaces, and warm them up.
Al had a kerosene heater, and said his trailer
was warm from end to end. I notice though that
he didn't at any point ask if I was OK, and
would I like to come in and get warm. Ursula
said she didn't want a wire across the street.
Ernie said he had a generator coming from the
firehall, and he was OK. Skip had gone to go
find a warm mall to visit.

The generator runs for about an hour and a half
on a tank of gas. It was long enough to warm the
house, but not that it was running all night.

Scott didn't have a telphone, digital phone
through the cable doesn't work during power
cuts. I considered whether to drive up, the Spirit
said that it was personal choice, but not needed.
So, I drove up there to see if he was OK. I found
a note on the door, they had gone to a shelter,
and weren't home. Well, that explains the promptings.
I learn later that the police had come by, and
ordered everyone out.

I pulled out the cell phone, and made a few more
calls. Didn't find anyone else who wanted use of a
generator. Went home, and powered up the furnace
for my night sleep.

Tues April 08, 2003
This AM, decided to go to the bank, and a couple
stores. I found the Dollar Tree had sold out of
D, and AA batteries. But they ahd plenty of 9 volt
and C cells.
** Lesson: Keep batteries at home. Also, buy some
flash lights that run on C-cells, since they don't
sell out as fast. Mag and Kel have lights that run
on C-cells, and American Science and Surplus used
to have C-cell flash lights ( www.sciplus.com ).

I had left the furnace plugged into the generator.
I had a sense that I oughta plug it back into the
house power. I got home, and was about to pour gas
into the generator when Skip came home and cheered.
He noticed before I did that the power is back on.
I should have left a couple lights turned on. I
wired the furnace back into the house power, and got
back on the computer.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
newsapEs.11021
CY: Other sources of heat include gas range, candles, oil wick
lamps,
camping fuel or propane lamps. Propane torch, camping cook stove.

Unlike work clothing, insulated hunting coveralls etc are made to sit
comfortably in for hours in freezing weather.

On 12/31/2012 3:59 PM, Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:55:14 +0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:48:08 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

True, but in northern Minnesota and Michigan that often is the average
temperature for individual days. I happened to visit southern MN for a
couple of winter months ca. 1970, and there was a week where the high
temperature was -30F. Made the tractors sound kind of interesting when
starting up cold. During the '80s every northern MN winter had at least
a few days of -40 to -45 temperatures; I think it's gotten a bit milder
there in recent years, although things like -54F in 2005 and -57F in 1996
still happen.

http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_Embarrass_Embarrass_MN_January.htm l


Ayup.

then there is snow fall "averages" as well. Growing up in Michigans
UP...average snow fall per winter is 220 inches.

You didn't grow up in the Michigan UP, lying asshole - Grayling is in
the lower part of the state - http://tinyurl.com/a6eqh2o

And no, the average snowfall in Grayling is not 220 inches - it was
172.1 inches on average for a 111 year period, 1891-2001.

When you see the author of the post is gummer, you know it will be
chock-full of extravagant lies.


--
Any more lip out of you and I'll haul off and let you have it...if you
know what's good for you, you won't monkey around with Fred C. Dobbs.

On 12/31/2012 4:18 PM, Fred C. Dobbs wrote:
On 12/31/2012 3:59 PM, Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:55:14 +0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:48:08 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

True, but in northern Minnesota and Michigan that often is the average
temperature for individual days. I happened to visit southern MN for a
couple of winter months ca. 1970, and there was a week where the high
temperature was -30F. Made the tractors sound kind of interesting when
starting up cold. During the '80s every northern MN winter had at least
a few days of -40 to -45 temperatures; I think it's gotten a bit milder
there in recent years, although things like -54F in 2005 and -57F in
1996
still happen.

http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_Embarrass_Embarrass_MN_January.htm l



Ayup.

then there is snow fall "averages" as well. Growing up in Michigans
UP...average snow fall per winter is 220 inches.

You didn't grow up in the Michigan UP, lying asshole - Grayling is in
the lower part of the state - http://tinyurl.com/a6eqh2o

And no, the average snowfall in Grayling is not 220 inches - it was
172.1 inches on average for a 111 year period, 1891-2001.

When you see the author of the post is gummer, you know it will be
chock-full of extravagant lies.

http://mrcc.isws.illinois.edu/climat...3391_ssum.html


--
Any more lip out of you and I'll haul off and let you have it...if you
know what's good for you, you won't monkey around with Fred C. Dobbs.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 15:59:52 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

average snow fall per winter is 220 inches. A bit more than 20
feet.

The Gunner number fairy strikes again! Isn't there some sort of
international fund to supply calculators for the needy?

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 13:14:39 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 07:03:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:23:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:47:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...Running water for them was sending the little girl running
to my house to fill a jug from the outside faucet I left on all year
round. The son would be lying in the dirt working under an old
pickup
truck without a coat when it was spitting snow. One winter
relatives(?) lived in the wrecked vehicles out back in the woods. I
can live simply, but not like THAT.

Ouch!

In practice the worst that happens here is a week with the roads
blocked by trees that are tangled in the power wires, which keeps us
from clearing them. I can live like the natives if I'm healthy.
Currently I'm trying to work out how to manage if sick or injured, ie
the minimum effort to keep the wood stove supplied and its chimney
clean. Both would be easy except for the snow.

That's just one more good reason not to live in snow country, AFAIC.

I have to figure out a better way to heat my home (during an
emergency) without a wood stove. I took a insert out. I hate smoke,
and 99.9% of all wood stoves and inserts smoke up the house. All
owners of wood stoves (and dogs) say "Oh, my stove doesn't smoke/dog
doesn't bark." and only about 1/2 of one percent are NOT in denial.

I quit smoking 25 years ago next Feb. and my lungs are sensitive to
pollution now. I'm thinking that my little 12v heater might work in
the tent inside the house. Or I might have to get another solar array
and battery to add to the massive 45 full, manly watts I now have.


There are a number of ways to heat your living areas..and the big one
is.."minimize them"

Ayup. My thought was to put up the tent in the smallest room, my
office.

Make your room The Tent. Its easy to do without trying to set up
poles and fabric.


In the case of a power failure when your heater blower is down etc
etc...move your living area into the kitchen. Hang blankets or old
sleeping bags from the doors leading to the rest of the house to seal
the kitchen off from the rest of the house. Then use your (gas) stove
to keep the kitchen warm. You DO have a gas stove..right? Or a Gas
Oven?
If not..you could...could be well and truely ****ed when it gets
cold. Pull a couch or recliner into the kitchen to sleep in. You do
have Co2/CO detectors..right? Put one in the kitchen before closing
off the rest of the house.

If you live in an Electric House..you have another complication or 10,
besides higher costs for power in most of the US.

Gas furnace, electric everything else. And I'm on a well, so water is
what I keep around or can drain from the water heater.

Id be changing out that electric stuff to gas if it was me. Unless
you live in a TVA area....shrug.


At this point..your best move is to seal off a bedroom with a bathroom
from the rest of the house and after opening a window AND making sure
your CO2/CO detector is working...depending on the outside
temps...either use a Coleman type gas heater or a dozen candles to
heat just that room. Having a bathroom means you can use the terlet
as long as you keep a faucet running and if your water supply freezes
up..you can use the water you filled the bathtub with. You did fill
the bathtube..right?

**** in a 5 gallon bucket and keep adding a bit of kitty litter after
each "deposit" and when its filled, take it out and dump it in the
garden, then reuse the bucket as your toilet.

I need to get one of those nice little terlit seats for a 5gal bucket.
I saw one for $8 somewhere, and I have plenty of 13gal kitchen bags to
line it and cover it in between uses.

Ayup. Kitty litter is cheap and really works to stop the odor.



Try to avoid traveling through the rest of the house very often as you
will be bleeding off heat into the other rooms. "air locking" with
blankets/sleeping bags on both sides of a door helps keep things from
bleeding off.

I have some zipper kits for plastic sheeting which might help that.

Plastic sheeting has zero insulation characteristics. A nice big old
sleeping bag from the Goodwill is far better for closing off an
opening.


Move in your food, drinking fluids, hobby materials, books, laptop etc
etc.in the fall. Long before you suddenly find the power off and the
furnace dead.

That's far from possible in most cases, Gunner.

Why? You don't have milk cartons and a closet handy?


Hopefully the bedroom will be at the front of your home..so you can
watch the front of the house for activities and issues. Simply put a
layer of painters plastic on the outside of the window and the inside
of the window..so the window doesnt become a heat pump..this assuming
you arent double/triple paned already.

It really doesnt take a lot of "energy" to heat a single bedroom,
particularly a small one. In many cases..2 people can do it with just
body temperature down to about 20F..add a couple dogs/cats and a TV

Sorry, no dogs, cats, (or TV, without electricity.)

Sucks to be you. Shrug Your choice.


and it can be warm enough to survive comfortably. If the room is well
insulated, both ceiling, walls and floors..it can be kept quite warm
well down to the minus numbers F. with just body activity. Each human
being generally puts out as much heat as a 200 watt light bulb with
light activity..so all you do is trap it in the room with you.
Remember..heat goes to the ceiling..so it will be colder..often much
colder at floor level. Bunk beds are quite good if you have one. Sleep
on the top bunk. Its going to be the warmest spot in the house.

You DO have pets..right? You should at the least..have a nice big

No, I don't believe in children, pets, or other slaves. gd&r

Slaves? Blink blink...


golden retreiver or other big Warm dog. Someone to talk to, someone
to be an early warning system and a companion in your life.

Barking menace? No thanks. They require more food, more water, and
daily trips outside to crap. Unnecessary.

Ayup..and are worth every bit of it.


That being said..you can and SHOULD make a "heat spreader"

Take a 8-12" piece of black plastic PVC or cardboard tube, about 7'
long, and put a 4-6 inch 6 or 12vt muffin fan, or a number of them
and mount them at the top or bottom of the pipe. Stand it up in a
corner and run the fans, so they pull the air down from the ceiling
and push it out at floor level. It doesnt take much fan to get a cycle
going and keeping that warm air moving from the ceiling back to the
floor, where your toes are.

Good idea. I've seen these for homes and have suggested them to
clients with cathedral ceilings to help them save heating bills.

Works pretty darned well in fact.


Save your 45 watts for powering the muffin fans, the radio and a LED
lamp or two for reading, popping zits and counting the holes in the
ceiling tiles when fits of boredom set in.

I have battery powered ham radio and weather radio. And plenty of LED
lamps, booklights, floods, etc.

However..they have little to zero heat values. A 25 watt applience
bulb puts out more heat than does 25 LEDs no matter what you do.


One assumes that you will be using those massive watts to charge at
least a couple 12vt batteries, right? If not..when the sun goes down
or the clouds are overhead...you have zippo for power. Stock up on
batteries, stock up on Coleman fuel and mantals. Add some batteries to
your megawatt power system.

Coleman fuel is so godawful expensive I gave away my lantern when I
saw it at $43/gal on Amazon. I have an alcohol stove, a propane
burner stove, a small propane BBQ, and a 20# propane tank which I keep
full. A single (so far) #29 deep cycle battery is connected to the
solar array for electrical storage.

Coleman fuel is $8 at Walmart. In mid summer it may go to $10ish. And
nearly all the newer Coleman products will burn unleaded gas just
fine. Hell..they all will even the old ones, but the the old ones have
generators that need periodic cleanin with a tank of Coleman fuel now
and then. I keep 20 gallons of "Coleman" fuel on hand at all times
out in one of the outbuildings and keep at least 3 filled lanterns on
a shelf inside the house. They can be found in second hand stores etc
etc for $5-10 and are worth every bit of it. Same with the stoves.
They tend to go for $5-8. Just check em out when you get home before
filling and putting them on standby. I think I have at least hummm 8
stoves or more and nearly 20 lanterns.

Walmart sells their own house brand of fuel for less and its the same
stuff. Naptha/white gas.

Propane is fine for very short periods of time..but the small
"bottles" are not generally refillable and if you run out..you cant
syphon any out of your vehicles gas tank. Liquid fuel burners..not a
problem. In a TEOWAKI situation..you can punch a hole in a wrecked
cars gas tank with a screw driver and get lantern/stove fuel. Cant do
that so easily with propane.

Alky stoves are ok, but they dont have the ability to be turned up to
HIGH and heat a room. Which is why I love my SVEA stoves..they burn
damned near anything liquid

http://www.campmor.com/optimus-svea-...ng-stove.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs3WN6PazWk

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Sporting-Goo...=R40&_nkw=svea

Check on em in late January or Febuary on Ebay. They sell a bit
cheaper. Most Ive ever paid for one was $35 including shipping




During cold weather..close off that room and open a window and let it
cool off nicely. Then test all of your preps and make sure they will
take care of your situation when the power goes off. Better to do it
when you can experiment, then when you are suddenly in the dark and
nothing has been staged.

Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely.

OK.


I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Yeouch!

In 1974..I was working outside of Rogers City , Michigan for Western
Geophysical and it was -47F, in addition to a 45mph wind off Lake
Huron, one bright and sunny morning at 11am.

that works out to -92F below zero.

We finished the day and then went to eat.

It was hardly uncommon. We welcomed snow..it was warmer when it was
snowing then a nice bright clear day.

Bright clear days generally meant that the water..all the the
water..every bit of the water was gone from the air.

Ever take a **** and it rattled when it hit the ground? Been there,
done that.

The drilling rig (Mayhew) had a water truck that had a big firebox in
the tank that we kept burning with anything at hand. Doesnt take long
to freeze 1500 gallons of water at those temps. And we made damned
sure to dump it at the end of the day..and leave the valves open else
they would freeze closed and you had to use the weed burner to heat em
up enough to open em to fill em.

Thats why I live in the high desert...in California.


http://co.water.usgs.gov/nawqa/hpgw/...nsat_drill.jpg

Ill have to dig out one of the photo boxes and scan and post some
photos of that era in my life .

The photos of cutting down trees with det cord are fun....G


Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:03:10 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:55:57 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
Winter ...

Maybe not, but it'll kill you a whole lot quicker than bugs will,
given any chance at all. I prefer less deadly climes.

You live where there are no cars, stairs or pools?

We grew up knowing the cold is dangerous and most suburban/rural men
at least wear enough warm clothing to deal with it. I watched Halley's
Comet on a frigid night on a ski mountain in Mass, then watched the
city boys in jeans and short jackets freeze their butts off waiting
for the chair lift down.

"My dog doesn't bark"

Zat ees not my dog.

....Or I might have to get another solar array
and battery to add to the massive 45 full, manly watts I now have.

If it's the Harbor Freight panel kit you are lucky to get 30W from
it.
The 45W rating is into a 17V battery. They deliver the same current
to
a 12V battery.

It is. I have no hard and fast ideas as to what it can do until I
get
it outside and working, with everything set up.

Reasonably priced meters:
http://www.futurlec.com/Panel_Meters.shtml
I have the APM3A, 3ADC analog meter in series with the charger, and
another (surplus) one I can use to aim the panels for peak output.

During our last long outage I could run this laptop or a small TV
about two hours a day from the panels, enough to keep up with the
local weather forecast and NWS radar, which was more useful when I
needed to know whether to repair or cover up roof damage. The image
tells a lot more than "scattered".

jsw

http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-CANADA-NE...-/310551869361

there are a lot more out there that use little power to run.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:03:10 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

If it's the Harbor Freight panel kit you are lucky to get 30W from
it.
The 45W rating is into a 17V battery. They deliver the same current
to
a 12V battery.

It is. I have no hard and fast ideas as to what it can do until I
get
it outside and working, with everything set up.

Reasonably priced meters:
http://www.futurlec.com/Panel_Meters.shtml
I have the APM3A, 3ADC analog meter in series with the charger, and
another (surplus) one I can use to aim the panels for peak output.

Good idea, and worth the money, I'm sure. I'm starting to read about
the open projects for solar tracking setups


During our last long outage I could run this laptop or a small TV
about two hours a day from the panels, enough to keep up with the
local weather forecast and NWS radar, which was more useful when I
needed to know whether to repair or cover up roof damage. The image
tells a lot more than "scattered".

Which reminds me to fix that old laptop I bought the battery for but
never fixed... I wonder if DSL would stay up here if the power went
out. I could add the little 400W inverter and run the PK5000 with the
laptop for inet access. The ammeter would help me track power for the
12v toys I have, too, wouldn't it? Back to Futurlec...

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 15:59:52 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:55:14 +0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:48:08 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

True, but in northern Minnesota and Michigan that often is the average
temperature for individual days. I happened to visit southern MN for a
couple of winter months ca. 1970, and there was a week where the high
temperature was -30F. Made the tractors sound kind of interesting when
starting up cold. During the '80s every northern MN winter had at least
a few days of -40 to -45 temperatures; I think it's gotten a bit milder
there in recent years, although things like -54F in 2005 and -57F in 1996
still happen.

http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_Embarrass_Embarrass_MN_January.htm l


Ayup.

then there is snow fall "averages" as well. Growing up in Michigans
UP...average snow fall per winter is 220 inches. A bit more than 20
feet. Fortunately..it tends to pack down a bit.

http://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.c...in-n-michigan/

http://icons-ak.wunderground.com/dat...owLvr/1092.jpg

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/DeerDeepSnow.JPG

http://www.jaxrabbit.com/images/Weather01.jpg

http://csumc.wisc.edu/exhibit/Heikki...p_image011.jpg

http://csumc.wisc.edu/exhibit/Heikki...line/2006.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11780965@N06/5024563781/

G

Ooh Noo! nonono!


http://amysangster.com/wp-content/up...9/moresnow.jpg

Oui, moremoremore!


Shrug...which is why I now live in Californias high desert.

Where your vehicle sinks only 6" into the asphalt if you pull over on
the highway in the summer... You moved from Fort Frozen Swamp to Fort
Stinkin Desert, sir.

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

You know, that's very good wisdom.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

Unlike work clothing, insulated hunting
coveralls etc are made to sit comfortably
in for hours in freezing weather.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 16:46:58 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 13:14:39 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 07:03:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:23:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:47:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...Running water for them was sending the little girl running
to my house to fill a jug from the outside faucet I left on all year
round. The son would be lying in the dirt working under an old
pickup
truck without a coat when it was spitting snow. One winter
relatives(?) lived in the wrecked vehicles out back in the woods. I
can live simply, but not like THAT.

Ouch!

In practice the worst that happens here is a week with the roads
blocked by trees that are tangled in the power wires, which keeps us
from clearing them. I can live like the natives if I'm healthy.
Currently I'm trying to work out how to manage if sick or injured, ie
the minimum effort to keep the wood stove supplied and its chimney
clean. Both would be easy except for the snow.

That's just one more good reason not to live in snow country, AFAIC.

I have to figure out a better way to heat my home (during an
emergency) without a wood stove. I took a insert out. I hate smoke,
and 99.9% of all wood stoves and inserts smoke up the house. All
owners of wood stoves (and dogs) say "Oh, my stove doesn't smoke/dog
doesn't bark." and only about 1/2 of one percent are NOT in denial.

I quit smoking 25 years ago next Feb. and my lungs are sensitive to
pollution now. I'm thinking that my little 12v heater might work in
the tent inside the house. Or I might have to get another solar array
and battery to add to the massive 45 full, manly watts I now have.


There are a number of ways to heat your living areas..and the big one
is.."minimize them"

Ayup. My thought was to put up the tent in the smallest room, my
office.

Make your room The Tent. Its easy to do without trying to set up
poles and fabric.

I have a little flip up dome. 30 second installation, IIRC.


In the case of a power failure when your heater blower is down etc
etc...move your living area into the kitchen. Hang blankets or old
sleeping bags from the doors leading to the rest of the house to seal
the kitchen off from the rest of the house. Then use your (gas) stove
to keep the kitchen warm. You DO have a gas stove..right? Or a Gas
Oven?
If not..you could...could be well and truely ****ed when it gets
cold. Pull a couch or recliner into the kitchen to sleep in. You do
have Co2/CO detectors..right? Put one in the kitchen before closing
off the rest of the house.

If you live in an Electric House..you have another complication or 10,
besides higher costs for power in most of the US.

No, I pay only $44 a month yearround.


Gas furnace, electric everything else. And I'm on a well, so water is
what I keep around or can drain from the water heater.

Id be changing out that electric stuff to gas if it was me. Unless
you live in a TVA area....shrug.

Cheap electricity up here. We're not Californicated. I moved the year
Gov. Gray/Brownout Davis was in power and made the deal with the devil
on CA electric rates. Last month I used 333KWH.


At this point..your best move is to seal off a bedroom with a bathroom
from the rest of the house and after opening a window AND making sure
your CO2/CO detector is working...depending on the outside
temps...either use a Coleman type gas heater or a dozen candles to
heat just that room. Having a bathroom means you can use the terlet
as long as you keep a faucet running and if your water supply freezes
up..you can use the water you filled the bathtub with. You did fill
the bathtube..right?

**** in a 5 gallon bucket and keep adding a bit of kitty litter after
each "deposit" and when its filled, take it out and dump it in the
garden, then reuse the bucket as your toilet.

I need to get one of those nice little terlit seats for a 5gal bucket.
I saw one for $8 somewhere, and I have plenty of 13gal kitchen bags to
line it and cover it in between uses.

Ayup. Kitty litter is cheap and really works to stop the odor.

Happily noted!


Try to avoid traveling through the rest of the house very often as you
will be bleeding off heat into the other rooms. "air locking" with
blankets/sleeping bags on both sides of a door helps keep things from
bleeding off.

I have some zipper kits for plastic sheeting which might help that.

Plastic sheeting has zero insulation characteristics. A nice big old
sleeping bag from the Goodwill is far better for closing off an
opening.

Airlocks, not insulation.


Move in your food, drinking fluids, hobby materials, books, laptop etc
etc.in the fall. Long before you suddenly find the power off and the
furnace dead.

That's far from possible in most cases, Gunner.

Why? You don't have milk cartons and a closet handy?

No, I meant you never know when the power will go out for any length
of time. I missed the "in the fall" part, I guess.



Hopefully the bedroom will be at the front of your home..so you can
watch the front of the house for activities and issues. Simply put a
layer of painters plastic on the outside of the window and the inside
of the window..so the window doesnt become a heat pump..this assuming
you arent double/triple paned already.

It really doesnt take a lot of "energy" to heat a single bedroom,
particularly a small one. In many cases..2 people can do it with just
body temperature down to about 20F..add a couple dogs/cats and a TV

Sorry, no dogs, cats, (or TV, without electricity.)

Sucks to be you. Shrug Your choice.

It was, and continues to be, a happy choice.


and it can be warm enough to survive comfortably. If the room is well
insulated, both ceiling, walls and floors..it can be kept quite warm
well down to the minus numbers F. with just body activity. Each human
being generally puts out as much heat as a 200 watt light bulb with
light activity..so all you do is trap it in the room with you.
Remember..heat goes to the ceiling..so it will be colder..often much
colder at floor level. Bunk beds are quite good if you have one. Sleep
on the top bunk. Its going to be the warmest spot in the house.

You DO have pets..right? You should at the least..have a nice big

No, I don't believe in children, pets, or other slaves. gd&r

Slaves? Blink blink...

Yeah, lots of people have kids only to do chores and take their
workload off thir lazy asses. It's sickening.


golden retreiver or other big Warm dog. Someone to talk to, someone
to be an early warning system and a companion in your life.

Barking menace? No thanks. They require more food, more water, and
daily trips outside to crap. Unnecessary.

Ayup..and are worth every bit of it.


That being said..you can and SHOULD make a "heat spreader"

Take a 8-12" piece of black plastic PVC or cardboard tube, about 7'
long, and put a 4-6 inch 6 or 12vt muffin fan, or a number of them
and mount them at the top or bottom of the pipe. Stand it up in a
corner and run the fans, so they pull the air down from the ceiling
and push it out at floor level. It doesnt take much fan to get a cycle
going and keeping that warm air moving from the ceiling back to the
floor, where your toes are.

Good idea. I've seen these for homes and have suggested them to
clients with cathedral ceilings to help them save heating bills.

Works pretty darned well in fact.

When I moved in here, there were 240v electric baseboard heaters and
single glazed aluminum framed windows. When the heaters were on, the
floor was at 50, your waist was at 70, and your head was at 95F. Talk
about stratification! The Carrier 96% efficient forced air gas
furnace has proven make things a whole lot more comfy.


Save your 45 watts for powering the muffin fans, the radio and a LED
lamp or two for reading, popping zits and counting the holes in the
ceiling tiles when fits of boredom set in.

I have battery powered ham radio and weather radio. And plenty of LED
lamps, booklights, floods, etc.

However..they have little to zero heat values. A 25 watt applience
bulb puts out more heat than does 25 LEDs no matter what you do.

I was thinking lights. I have the $10 HF heater for very short periods
of use. http://tinyurl.com/844kfvx

I can't use this in the tent, though. http://tinyurl.com/277krkr


One assumes that you will be using those massive watts to charge at
least a couple 12vt batteries, right? If not..when the sun goes down
or the clouds are overhead...you have zippo for power. Stock up on
batteries, stock up on Coleman fuel and mantals. Add some batteries to
your megawatt power system.

Coleman fuel is so godawful expensive I gave away my lantern when I
saw it at $43/gal on Amazon. I have an alcohol stove, a propane
burner stove, a small propane BBQ, and a 20# propane tank which I keep
full. A single (so far) #29 deep cycle battery is connected to the
solar array for electrical storage.

Coleman fuel is $8 at Walmart. In mid summer it may go to $10ish. And
nearly all the newer Coleman products will burn unleaded gas just
fine. Hell..they all will even the old ones, but the the old ones have
generators that need periodic cleanin with a tank of Coleman fuel now
and then. I keep 20 gallons of "Coleman" fuel on hand at all times
out in one of the outbuildings and keep at least 3 filled lanterns on
a shelf inside the house. They can be found in second hand stores etc
etc for $5-10 and are worth every bit of it. Same with the stoves.
They tend to go for $5-8. Just check em out when you get home before
filling and putting them on standby. I think I have at least hummm 8
stoves or more and nearly 20 lanterns.

Walmart sells their own house brand of fuel for less and its the same
stuff. Naptha/white gas.

Excellent. I hadn't seen the price come back down, but I haven't
looked in years.


Propane is fine for very short periods of time..but the small
"bottles" are not generally refillable and if you run out..you cant
syphon any out of your vehicles gas tank. Liquid fuel burners..not a
problem. In a TEOWAKI situation..you can punch a hole in a wrecked
cars gas tank with a screw driver and get lantern/stove fuel. Cant do
that so easily with propane.

Alky stoves are ok, but they dont have the ability to be turned up to
HIGH and heat a room. Which is why I love my SVEA stoves..they burn
damned near anything liquid

I have the old surplus SVEA military model but haven't used it yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPj_ulqlN7Y

I'd hesitate to burn it in the same room I wanted to breathe, though.


In 1974..I was working outside of Rogers City , Michigan for Western
Geophysical and it was -47F, in addition to a 45mph wind off Lake
Huron, one bright and sunny morning at 11am.

that works out to -92F below zero.

FTN. You people can HAVE that crap.


We finished the day and then went to eat.

It was hardly uncommon. We welcomed snow..it was warmer when it was
snowing then a nice bright clear day.

I'll bet. I just went out and someone g was in my yard blowing off
bottle rockets and tiny firecrackers a neighbor had left here last
year. It was snowing a bit out there, but the 36F wasn't bad. It was
a fun ten minutes.


Bright clear days generally meant that the water..all the the
water..every bit of the water was gone from the air.

Ever take a **** and it rattled when it hit the ground? Been there,
done that.

Nope. I never have and most assuredly hope I never will.


The drilling rig (Mayhew) had a water truck that had a big firebox in
the tank that we kept burning with anything at hand. Doesnt take long
to freeze 1500 gallons of water at those temps. And we made damned
sure to dump it at the end of the day..and leave the valves open else
they would freeze closed and you had to use the weed burner to heat em
up enough to open em to fill em.

Wow, that's tooooo chilly.


Ill have to dig out one of the photo boxes and scan and post some
photos of that era in my life .

The photos of cutting down trees with det cord are fun....G

I look forward to 'em.

40oz cans of Nalley Beef Stew were on sale for $2.19 today. I tried
one for dinner and think I may go back for another case of it. 1/3 of
a can filled me up. I can't believe they're getting $10-14 a meal for
MREs now. I had thought to try some before I saw the price. Best
price was $114 for a case of 12. Pass!

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:57:49 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 15:59:52 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:55:14 +0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:48:08 -0500, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 08:02:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely. I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Grew up in Barrow AK? There's no place in the continental US where
the "average winter temp during the day" is -20F.

True, but in northern Minnesota and Michigan that often is the average
temperature for individual days. I happened to visit southern MN for a
couple of winter months ca. 1970, and there was a week where the high
temperature was -30F. Made the tractors sound kind of interesting when
starting up cold. During the '80s every northern MN winter had at least
a few days of -40 to -45 temperatures; I think it's gotten a bit milder
there in recent years, although things like -54F in 2005 and -57F in 1996
still happen.

http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_Embarrass_Embarrass_MN_January.htm l


Ayup.

then there is snow fall "averages" as well. Growing up in Michigans
UP...average snow fall per winter is 220 inches. A bit more than 20
feet. Fortunately..it tends to pack down a bit.

http://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.c...in-n-michigan/

http://icons-ak.wunderground.com/dat...owLvr/1092.jpg

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/DeerDeepSnow.JPG

http://www.jaxrabbit.com/images/Weather01.jpg

http://csumc.wisc.edu/exhibit/Heikki...p_image011.jpg

http://csumc.wisc.edu/exhibit/Heikki...line/2006.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11780965@N06/5024563781/

G

Ooh Noo! nonono!


http://amysangster.com/wp-content/up...9/moresnow.jpg

Oui, moremoremore!


Shrug...which is why I now live in Californias high desert.

Where your vehicle sinks only 6" into the asphalt if you pull over on
the highway in the summer... You moved from Fort Frozen Swamp to Fort
Stinkin Desert, sir.

But..I dont need a snow shovel.

VBG

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:51:06 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:03:10 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

If it's the Harbor Freight panel kit you are lucky to get 30W from
it.
The 45W rating is into a 17V battery. They deliver the same current
to
a 12V battery.

It is. I have no hard and fast ideas as to what it can do until I
get
it outside and working, with everything set up.

Reasonably priced meters:
http://www.futurlec.com/Panel_Meters.shtml
I have the APM3A, 3ADC analog meter in series with the charger, and
another (surplus) one I can use to aim the panels for peak output.

Good idea, and worth the money, I'm sure. I'm starting to read about
the open projects for solar tracking setups


During our last long outage I could run this laptop or a small TV
about two hours a day from the panels, enough to keep up with the
local weather forecast and NWS radar, which was more useful when I
needed to know whether to repair or cover up roof damage. The image
tells a lot more than "scattered".

Which reminds me to fix that old laptop I bought the battery for but
never fixed... I wonder if DSL would stay up here if the power went
out. I could add the little 400W inverter and run the PK5000 with the
laptop for inet access. The ammeter would help me track power for the
12v toys I have, too, wouldn't it? Back to Futurlec...

If it doesnt..you always have the ability to "tether" your computer to
your cell phone..if you have a smart phone.

I got on here for at least a year or more by tethering to my smart
phone

http://mobileoffice.about.com/od/pho...-tethering.htm

http://junefabrics.com/android/

Gunner


The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:55:17 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:51:06 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Which reminds me to fix that old laptop I bought the battery for but
never fixed... I wonder if DSL would stay up here if the power went
out. I could add the little 400W inverter and run the PK5000 with the
laptop for inet access. The ammeter would help me track power for the
12v toys I have, too, wouldn't it? Back to Futurlec...

If it doesnt..you always have the ability to "tether" your computer to
your cell phone..if you have a smart phone.

Newp. Tracfone, costs $99 per year. I hate cellphones, still
believing that they're not yet ready for prime-time. Audible
distortion and dropped signals still plague them.


I got on here for at least a year or more by tethering to my smart
phone

http://mobileoffice.about.com/od/pho...-tethering.htm

http://junefabrics.com/android/

I understand that it's slow, but at least you have access.

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand