On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:48:49 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:57:49 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:
Where your vehicle sinks only 6" into the asphalt if you pull over on
the highway in the summer... You moved from Fort Frozen Swamp to Fort
Stinkin Desert, sir.

But..I dont need a snow shovel. VBG

But...you need a floor mop for the sweat.

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 02:44:15 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:55:17 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:51:06 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Which reminds me to fix that old laptop I bought the battery for but
never fixed... I wonder if DSL would stay up here if the power went
out. I could add the little 400W inverter and run the PK5000 with the
laptop for inet access. The ammeter would help me track power for the
12v toys I have, too, wouldn't it? Back to Futurlec...

If it doesnt..you always have the ability to "tether" your computer to
your cell phone..if you have a smart phone.

Newp. Tracfone, costs $99 per year. I hate cellphones, still
believing that they're not yet ready for prime-time. Audible
distortion and dropped signals still plague them.

Odd...my phones are as solid as rocks and most folks cant tell if Im
on a hardwire or cell.

But hey..thats up to you. Ive got Galaxy Victorys Work pretty good.



I got on here for at least a year or more by tethering to my smart
phone

http://mobileoffice.about.com/od/pho...-tethering.htm

http://junefabrics.com/android/

I understand that it's slow, but at least you have access.

Indeed. You wont be watching movies..but email and usenet works just
fine.


The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 02:45:45 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:48:49 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:57:49 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:
Where your vehicle sinks only 6" into the asphalt if you pull over on
the highway in the summer... You moved from Fort Frozen Swamp to Fort
Stinkin Desert, sir.

But..I dont need a snow shovel. VBG

But...you need a floor mop for the sweat.

Nah..after a while..your blood thins out and you dont sweat much
inside, least of all with the swamp cooler running.

I just heard the furnace kick on. First time tonight...and its 5am.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

Friday October 13, 2006
The weather guys have been saying that we are going
to have freezing rain. But, the freezing rain did not materialize. Actually,
it's in the fifties,
and very comfortable.

I stopped in Home Depot, to buy a couple of small
things. There were two people in the parking lot, loading generators into
their vehicles. And
I go into the store, there was another generator at the check out. I asked
one of the folks who
worked there, why the rush on generators, what was going on. She told me
that there had been a major
ice storm in Buffalo, and people were coming from there, to get generators.
All the oens closer
to home had been sold out. I had been listening to
the radio, and had neard nothing about this.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Young"
To: ;
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 10:18 PM
Subject: [PS3] Equipment test result



Maybe tomorrow after church I test the gasoline power
generator. After all, that hasn't been run since 2003.
I keep thinking it should be OK. After all, it hasn't
been used. Wonder what else of mine doesn't work,
but I havn't found out, yet?

Christopher A. Young



----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Young"
To: ;
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 4:56 PM
Subject: [PS3] Generator Rescue Mission


A couple friends of mine live in the Buffalo, NY area.
They aren't answering the phone, so I can only guess
that they are huddled around the gas range, trying to
keep warm. Maybe I'll drive out there, and see if they are OK?




----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Young"
Subject: [PS3] Generator Rescue Mission
Date: Monday, October 16, 2006 11:41 PM

I'm a bit exhausted from a full day. So, the sitrep
will be painfully brief.

They lost power about 9 PM Thursday. They had just bought
catfood, so the kitties have plenty to eat. However,
the post office shut down with the storm. That means
no paycheck.

Loaded the truck Monday, figured to go drive the generator
to Buffalo, in case they wanted me to run their furnace. I
got interrupted by a work call. Stopped for a slice of pizza,
don't like to travel on an empty stomach. Left here
noon or so. Went to a discount food place on the way. Bought
a few things. Dish soap, shampoo, some cans of Vienna sausages,
loaf of bread. I brought a frozen pack of hot dogs from my
own freezer.

I arrived Monday late afternoon. About 3 PM. Banged on
the door, and Louie came to the door. He'd been high stress
for the last couple days. Hardly eaten, or slept. It took
him quite a while to realize that I brought a generator. And
could run the furnace. At 58F, it was almost warmer outside
than inside.

As we started to roll out electric cords, I realized they have
electric range, not gas range. Blast, I thought it was gas. I
asked what's the biggest need. Heat into the house. I'd
brought a couple extension cords. We rolled em out, and I
wired a cord into the furnace. Nice to go back down and see
gas flames rolling into the combustion chamber. And then the
blower came on. Sweeet!

They were hungry. I suggested we run the microwave on the
generator. But, they wanted to eat out. We ate out. Chance to
catch up on news.

They were hearing about the storm on Thursday. They got sent
home from work early. And a good thing, too. Aparently didn't
occur to them to buy some supplies on the way home. The
power went out about 9 PM, and the phone went out about 11 PM,
Thursday. A tree took down the phone line. They spent the day
with a shovel, trying to keep the driveway clear. And did some muscle
strain, doing that. It warmed up, and most of the
snow melted.

Some other folks had water in the cellar, but they were good.
The sump crock was full, and also the drains around the cellar.
But no water on the cellar floor. As the house warmed, I ran
power to the sump pump, and pumped out the water from the drainage system.

I got out the chainsaw, and started dicing up the tree that was
in their back yard. Maple, nice wood. Shame to see it
down, lets hope someone can use it for firewood. Ran a tank of gas,
and that was enough for the day. The house had warmed up.




We went to a laundrymat. I suggested the washing machine on
generator power, but they wanted to run several loads at the
same time. Get it over. The first laundry was packed with people.
And the second one. Finally found one with a washer or two open.
I got to ask them the "sitrep". While the clothes were washing.

* They weren't sure if the natural gas fired hot water heater
was working. The thermostat got bumped, gosh knows how, and the
water was coming out lukewarm. They didn't think to turn up the
thermostat to a hotter setting. They were discussing if the water
heater needs electricity. No, it does not.
* They were discussing and thinking generator. I suggested a few
things they could do, far less expensive than a generator. They
didn't act like they even heard my suggestion. They are going to contact the
mortgage company for their house, and ask for a
payment holiday for a couple months, to free up some money for
the generator. In other words, thier survival depends on the
decision of the mortgage company.
* I remembered they had a gas range but find out when I arrived,
that I was mistaken. They have electric range. So, I didn't
bring a camp stove. Or, a propane heater. That was negligent of me.
* They were hungry, having little food in the house, and the
food they had required cooking. Just not taking the time to go
shopping. Some stores in the area were open. They could have gone
and bought food.
* Generator is nice, but it's a big step for new home owners.
Smaller but good step include propane heater, and camp stove.
While a generator and hookup might cost a grand, a camp stove
and infared heater and some propane bottles can all be had for
under a hundred dollars.
* After three years of discussion, they did finally get a cell
phone. Which works even with the power off. They didn't get the
12 volt vehicle charger. She's going to charge the phone at work.
If she remembers to put the charger in the car to take to work.
* One of the big needs was a battery alarm clock.
* Their big radio takes 8 D cells, the flash lights each take 2 D
cells. No spare batteries in the house.
* With food in the house, and a generator to run the microwave
(and a paycheck not yet arrived), their dinner option was to go
out to a diner and put the bill on their credit card.
* Some of the local stores got power back, so life is getting
slowly back to normal.
* The paycheck is still in the postal system, and won't
be arrived for quite a while. They suggest direct deposit
for all persons who can get such.
* They also suggest both No-Refrigeration food. And that
should also be No-Cook food. Some to be kept in the house.
Fruit granola bars, that kind of thing is good. They suggest
keeping some dry catfood at home. The canned stuff isn't as
likely to be eaten when it's cold. I had to head for home
while the laundry was running. By this time, they had not
gone to the store for no cook food.
* They had discussed a cell phone for the last three years.
Finally they did get one, today, and the cell phone works.
They got the 110 volt charger, she'll bring it and the charger
to work tomorrow. If work calls. Good thing I came over today,
as they may or may not be home tomorrow and the rest of the
week.

They were surprised and pleased to see me. And very thankful
for the assistance. The warmth, and company was much
appreciated. I got to play with my toys, and they got some
comfort.

Christopher A. Young

..

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
Make your room The Tent. Its easy to do without trying to set up
poles and fabric.

I have a little flip up dome. 30 second installation, IIRC.
CY: Good idea.


If you live in an Electric House..you have another complication or 10,
besides higher costs for power in most of the US.

No, I pay only $44 a month yearround.
CY: That's excellent price.


I need to get one of those nice little terlit seats for a 5gal bucket.
I saw one for $8 somewhere, and I have plenty of 13gal kitchen bags to
line it and cover it in between uses.

Ayup. Kitty litter is cheap and really works to stop the odor.

Happily noted!
CY: Green RV holding tank fluid works well, also.


Plastic sheeting has zero insulation characteristics. A nice big old
sleeping bag from the Goodwill is far better for closing off an
opening.

Airlocks, not insulation.
CY: Heating smaller space is an old, and very good trick. I've done that one
time when my furnace was broken, live in one room.

No, I don't believe in children, pets, or other slaves. gd&r

Slaves? Blink blink...

Yeah, lots of people have kids only to do chores and take their
workload off thir lazy asses. It's sickening.
CY: Also gets more taxpayer dollars from Uncle Sugar.


When I moved in here, there were 240v electric baseboard heaters and
single glazed aluminum framed windows. When the heaters were on, the
floor was at 50, your waist was at 70, and your head was at 95F. Talk
about stratification! The Carrier 96% efficient forced air gas
furnace has proven make things a whole lot more comfy.
CY: Also think ceiling fans. I have gas forced air heat, which is far more
comfortable than portable heaters, or emergency heaters.

However..they have little to zero heat values. A 25 watt applience
bulb puts out more heat than does 25 LEDs no matter what you do.

I was thinking lights. I have the $10 HF heater for very short periods
of use. http://tinyurl.com/844kfvx

I can't use this in the tent, though. http://tinyurl.com/277krkr

CY: Well, use what works.


Coleman fuel is $8 at Walmart. In mid summer it may go to $10ish. And
nearly all the newer Coleman products will burn unleaded gas just

Walmart sells their own house brand of fuel for less and its the same
stuff. Naptha/white gas.

Excellent. I hadn't seen the price come back down, but I haven't
looked in years.
CY: Amazon probably needs haz mat shipping.


Alky stoves are ok, but they dont have the ability to be turned up to
HIGH and heat a room. Which is why I love my SVEA stoves..they burn
damned near anything liquid

I have the old surplus SVEA military model but haven't used it yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPj_ulqlN7Y

I'd hesitate to burn it in the same room I wanted to breathe, though.

CY: I hear that. Some stoves do a lot of monoxide.


40oz cans of Nalley Beef Stew were on sale for $2.19 today. I tried
one for dinner and think I may go back for another case of it. 1/3 of
a can filled me up. I can't believe they're getting $10-14 a meal for
MREs now. I had thought to try some before I saw the price. Best
price was $114 for a case of 12. Pass!

CY: I think you're wise to buy grocery food, at those MRE prices.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
Which reminds me to fix that old laptop I bought the battery for
but
never fixed... I wonder if DSL would stay up here if the power
went
out. I could add the little 400W inverter and run the PK5000 with
the
laptop for inet access. The ammeter would help me track power for
the
12v toys I have, too, wouldn't it? Back to Futurlec...


I bought the 50ADC meter for that. It's good for an inverter of up to
600W. 400W has been plenty for what I need between generator runs
during an outage. An inverter makes a good load for battery capacity
testing because it shuts off before discharging the battery low enough
to damage it. I plugged in a 100W crock pot as a safe representative
load.

A cheap Harbor Freight multimeter reads up to 10 Amps which is 120W to
or from a 12V battery. I use a digital multimeter for testing, an
analog meter for continuous monitoring.

HWiNFO32 shows laptop battery charge or drain power in the Sensors
window.
http://www.hwinfo.com/download32.html
If the laptop is part of the inverter test load the battery power log
entry captures the time when the inverter's low battery shutoff trips.
The .csv log file loads neatly into a spreadsheet but you may have to
adjust the checklist of field separators.

What I've found is that if I am using the laptop efficiently the power
drain varies widely, from 20W to 35W on this one. The only way to get
a stable and repeatable measurement is to run it at idle or on a task
that continuously writes to the hard drive, like logging data or
recording HDTV, both of which capture the time when the battery ran
out. It's also in the Event Log if the computer successfully entered
Sleep mode. I can compare the run times of batteries or UPSs but not
predict it for normal use.
jsw

On 12/31/2012 3:59 PM, Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:55:14 +0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

Shrug...which is why I now live in Californias high desert.

You don't live in any "high desert", gummer. You don't live in any
desert at all, and you live at 1000' elevation. Palmdale (2657'),
Lancaster (2359'), Mojave (2762') and Victorville (2726') are considered
high desert towns. Taft (955') and the gummer squat at 326 S. Olive
(1040') are not high desert.

You stupid knuckledragging gun-free ****wit...


--
Any more lip out of you and I'll haul off and let you have it...if you
know what's good for you, you won't monkey around with Fred C. Dobbs.

On 1/1/2013 2:45 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:48:49 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:57:49 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:
Where your vehicle sinks only 6" into the asphalt if you pull over on
the highway in the summer... You moved from Fort Frozen Swamp to Fort
Stinkin Desert, sir.

But..I dont need a snow shovel. VBG

But...you need a floor mop for the sweat.

What gummer need first is a pot to **** in.

On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 04:58:32 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 02:44:15 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:55:17 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
If it doesnt..you always have the ability to "tether" your computer to
your cell phone..if you have a smart phone.

Newp. Tracfone, costs $99 per year. I hate cellphones, still
believing that they're not yet ready for prime-time. Audible
distortion and dropped signals still plague them.

Odd...my phones are as solid as rocks and most folks cant tell if Im
on a hardwire or cell.

Perhaps you're sitting under a cell tower, too?


But hey..thats up to you. Ive got Galaxy Victorys Work pretty good.

What carrier?


I got on here for at least a year or more by tethering to my smart
phone

http://mobileoffice.about.com/od/pho...-tethering.htm

http://junefabrics.com/android/

I understand that it's slow, but at least you have access.

Indeed. You wont be watching movies..but email and usenet works just
fine.

Yuppers.

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 09:11:51 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
Which reminds me to fix that old laptop I bought the battery for
but
never fixed... I wonder if DSL would stay up here if the power
went
out. I could add the little 400W inverter and run the PK5000 with
the
laptop for inet access. The ammeter would help me track power for
the
12v toys I have, too, wouldn't it? Back to Futurlec...


I bought the 50ADC meter for that. It's good for an inverter of up to
600W. 400W has been plenty for what I need between generator runs
during an outage. An inverter makes a good load for battery capacity
testing because it shuts off before discharging the battery low enough
to damage it. I plugged in a 100W crock pot as a safe representative
load.

A cheap Harbor Freight multimeter reads up to 10 Amps which is 120W to
or from a 12V battery. I use a digital multimeter for testing, an
analog meter for continuous monitoring.

I need to get alligator clips for my VOM probes so I can more easily
use it for that. That said, I already slipped once and burned a tip
where it arced, having forgotten to replace the lead back in the
volt/ohm socket. It didn't take long at all to remind myself it was
in ammeter mode across 120v. It de-chromed the + tip. sigh Oh,
this on a better meter, a Mastech MS8209.


HWiNFO32 shows laptop battery charge or drain power in the Sensors
window.
http://www.hwinfo.com/download32.html
If the laptop is part of the inverter test load the battery power log
entry captures the time when the inverter's low battery shutoff trips.
The .csv log file loads neatly into a spreadsheet but you may have to
adjust the checklist of field separators.

I'll check it out.


What I've found is that if I am using the laptop efficiently the power
drain varies widely, from 20W to 35W on this one. The only way to get
a stable and repeatable measurement is to run it at idle or on a task
that continuously writes to the hard drive, like logging data or
recording HDTV, both of which capture the time when the battery ran
out. It's also in the Event Log if the computer successfully entered
Sleep mode. I can compare the run times of batteries or UPSs but not
predict it for normal use.

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought a laptop would run such a wide
range of currents. Yeah, predictions from that would be iffy.

--
You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore
the consequences of ignoring reality.
--Ayn Rand

On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 09:52:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 04:58:32 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 02:44:15 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:55:17 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
If it doesnt..you always have the ability to "tether" your computer to
your cell phone..if you have a smart phone.

Newp. Tracfone, costs $99 per year. I hate cellphones, still
believing that they're not yet ready for prime-time. Audible
distortion and dropped signals still plague them.

Odd...my phones are as solid as rocks and most folks cant tell if Im
on a hardwire or cell.

Perhaps you're sitting under a cell tower, too?

Not generally. I have at the moment..only (1) bar showing.


But hey..thats up to you. Ive got Galaxy Victorys Work pretty good.

What carrier?

Sprint.


I got on here for at least a year or more by tethering to my smart
phone

http://mobileoffice.about.com/od/pho...-tethering.htm

http://junefabrics.com/android/

I understand that it's slow, but at least you have access.

Indeed. You wont be watching movies..but email and usenet works just
fine.

Yuppers.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:59:06 -0800, "Fred C. Dobbs"
wrote:

On 12/31/2012 12:48 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:55:57 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

That's just one more good reason not to live in snow country, AFAIC.

Winter is the cheapest and easiest time for me to live. Snow isn't as
annoying as bugs and doesn't spread Lyme disease, West Nile and EEE.
And we don't have poisonous snakes.

Maybe not, but it'll kill you a whole lot quicker than bugs will,
given any chance at all. I prefer less deadly climes.

Winter is the reason modern civilization and market economies developed
so much more in northerly latitudes. First of all, surviving cold
weather requires greater industry (in the meaning of industriousness)
and planning. Secondly, and paradoxically, keeping yourself warm enough
to keep living - and producing - is cheaper than keeping yourself cool
enough in hot climates.
The harder you work, the warmer you get. Counterproductive in hot
climates. I've lived in central Africa, and in Ontario Canada. I know
where I prefer to work!!!!!!

You can put on clothes untill you are warm. Even if the law allowed
it, you cannot take off enough to be cool.

I grew up in an area that the average
winter temp during the day..was -20F..on a warm day. And Ive seen it
-80F with a good wind blowing.

Yeouch!
Those "temperatures" are "wind chill". The EFFECTIVE temperature of
a combination of real temperature, wind speed, and humidity.\


Kinda like "humidex" in the summer, where a "moist heat" feals a lot
hotter than a "dry heat"

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:24:12 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:


There are a number of ways to heat your living areas..and the big one
is.."minimize them"

Ayup. My thought was to put up the tent in the smallest room, my
office.
CY: Could help.

In the case of a power failure when your heater blower is down etc
etc...move your living area into the kitchen. Hang blankets or old
sleeping bags from the doors leading to the rest of the house to seal
the kitchen off from the rest of the house. Then use your (gas) stove
to keep the kitchen warm. You DO have a gas stove..right? Or a Gas
Oven?
If not..you could...could be well and truely ****ed when it gets
cold. Pull a couch or recliner into the kitchen to sleep in. You do
have Co2/CO detectors..right? Put one in the kitchen before closing
off the rest of the house.

If you live in an Electric House..you have another complication or 10,
besides higher costs for power in most of the US.

Gas furnace, electric everything else. And I'm on a well, so water is
what I keep around or can drain from the water heater.
CY: I save juice and soda bottles. Fill, stack, put in cabinets.

heat just that room. Having a bathroom means you can use the terlet
as long as you keep a faucet running and if your water supply freezes
up..you can use the water you filled the bathtub with. You did fill
the bathtube..right?
CY: A tsp of "RV holding tank fluid" makes the toilet a lot more pleasant.


**** in a 5 gallon bucket and keep adding a bit of kitty litter after
each "deposit" and when its filled, take it out and dump it in the
garden, then reuse the bucket as your toilet.
I need to get one of those nice little terlit seats for a 5gal bucket.
I saw one for $8 somewhere, and I have plenty of 13gal kitchen bags to
line it and cover it in between uses.
CY: Some RV fluid helps, a lot. And fill the bathtube.



It really doesnt take a lot of "energy" to heat a single bedroom,
particularly a small one. In many cases..2 people can do it with just
body temperature down to about 20F..add a couple dogs/cats and a TV

Sorry, no dogs, cats, (or TV, without electricity.)

CY: Oh, well.



That being said..you can and SHOULD make a "heat spreader"

Take a 8-12" piece of black plastic PVC or cardboard tube, about 7'
long, and put a 4-6 inch 6 or 12vt muffin fan, or a number of them
and mount them at the top or bottom of the pipe. Stand it up in a
corner and run the fans, so they pull the air down from the ceiling
and push it out at floor level. It doesnt take much fan to get a cycle
going and keeping that warm air moving from the ceiling back to the
floor, where your toes are.

Good idea. I've seen these for homes and have suggested them to
clients with cathedral ceilings to help them save heating bills.
CY:Sounds good.


Save your 45 watts for powering the muffin fans, the radio and a LED
lamp or two for reading, popping zits and counting the holes in the
ceiling tiles when fits of boredom set in.

I have battery powered ham radio and weather radio. And plenty of LED
lamps, booklights, floods, etc.
CY: Good man.

One assumes that you will be using those massive watts to charge at
least a couple 12vt batteries, right? If not..when the sun goes down
or the clouds are overhead...you have zippo for power. Stock up on
batteries, stock up on Coleman fuel and mantals. Add some batteries to
your megawatt power system.

Coleman fuel is so godawful expensive I gave away my lantern when I
saw it at $43/gal on Amazon. I have an alcohol stove, a propane
burner stove, a small propane BBQ, and a 20# propane tank which I keep
full. A single (so far) #29 deep cycle battery is connected to the
solar array for electrical storage.
CY: Camping stores, fuel less expensive there. Kmart, Walmart.

Or, for many, lead free motor fuel works just fine - at least in a
pinch.

During cold weather..close off that room and open a window and let it
cool off nicely. Then test all of your preps and make sure they will
take care of your situation when the power goes off. Better to do it
when you can experiment, then when you are suddenly in the dark and
nothing has been staged.

Everything above..Ive used in some of the coldest badlands in the US
and survived quite nicely.

OK.
CY: Other sources of heat include gas range, candles, oil wick lamps,
camping fuel or propane lamps. Propane torch, camping cook stove.



With adequate ventilation. There's always a few deaths on cold May 24
weekends from people sealing up the tent and running the heater to
stay warm.

Nothing like trying to remove your
birthday suit. Honey! Where's that
zipper pull?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

You can put on clothes untill you are warm.
Even if the law allowed
it, you cannot take off enough to be cool.

John B. on Sun, 23 Dec 2012 14:56:02 +0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 04:46:49 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 15:44:46 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner on Wed, 19 Dec 2012 03:26:04 -0800 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:54:11 -0800, a friend
wrote:


And, ackshooly, with enough firepower, you no need no prepping, as others
have, essentially, prepped for you....
Dats when old missile silos come in handy.... LOL.


If you believe the idiocy of which you speak, why don't you move far
away - for example, to the Magrheb, or to central Australia, where there
no people around. Your fantasy of killing everyone around you so you
can survive is just a deranged


Seems to have worked rather admirably for several thousands of
years..the Mongols being one of many many examples.

Until they ran headlong into people badder then they were. Europeans.

Actually, the Mongols cleaned European Clock. For all that they
were a light horse army, they also had a very sophisticated command
and control system in place, which would not be duplicated by European
Armies until several centuries later. But then the Khan back home
died. And the leaders of the Hordes had to go home for the election
of the new Khan. And Decadence set in.

The first time, indeed they did. The second time...not so much. I
think they stopped at Rome or Venice or somewhere


Wasn't that a different mob?
I thought the first mob had squinchi eyes and the second came from
Germany :-)

The Mongols, circa 13th century, came from Mongolia. They took
China. They took, sacked, Baghdad. They sacked Kiev on the way
_home_ from central Europe. At one point, the Mongol Empire covered
90 degrees of the Eurasia land mass - Kiev to the East China Sea.

The Huns were different a different mob. Attila "the scourge of
God" threatened Rome in the 6th Century. By then the Roma Empire in
the west was moribund.

The Turks (Seljuks, house Osmali - the Ottomans) came out of
central Asia, finished off the Roman empire (Constantinople) with aid
from the Venetians. 1543 and all that. A hundred years later _they_
besieged Vienna, lost, and the croissant roll was invented.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

pyotr filipivich wrote:

The Mongols, circa 13th century, came from Mongolia. They took
China. They took, sacked, Baghdad. They sacked Kiev on the way
_home_ from central Europe. At one point, the Mongol Empire covered
90 degrees of the Eurasia land mass - Kiev to the East China Sea.

The Huns were different a different mob. Attila "the scourge of
God" threatened Rome in the 6th Century. By then the Roma Empire in
the west was moribund.

The Turks (Seljuks, house Osmali - the Ottomans) came out of
central Asia, finished off the Roman empire (Constantinople) with aid
from the Venetians. 1543 and all that. A hundred years later _they_
besieged Vienna, lost, and the croissant roll was invented.


Their blinds were invented much later. ;-)

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:35:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


pyotr filipivich wrote:

The Mongols, circa 13th century, came from Mongolia. They took
China. They took, sacked, Baghdad. They sacked Kiev on the way
_home_ from central Europe. At one point, the Mongol Empire covered
90 degrees of the Eurasia land mass - Kiev to the East China Sea.

The Huns were different a different mob. Attila "the scourge of
God" threatened Rome in the 6th Century. By then the Roma Empire in
the west was moribund.

The Turks (Seljuks, house Osmali - the Ottomans) came out of
central Asia, finished off the Roman empire (Constantinople) with aid
from the Venetians. 1543 and all that. A hundred years later _they_
besieged Vienna, lost, and the croissant roll was invented.


Their blinds were invented much later. ;-)

That's a shady comment if I've ever heard one, Bubba.

--
A sound mind in a sound body is a short but full description
of a happy state in this world.
-- John Locke

The Federal Assault pressurecookers Ban (APB), or
Public Safety and Recreational cookwares Use
Protection Act, was a subtitle of the Violent
Cooking Control and Law Enforcement Act of
1994, a federal law in the United States that included
a prohibition on the manufacture for home kitchen
use of certain semi-automatic cookwares, so called
"assault pressurecookers".[1] The 10-year ban was
passed by Congress on September 13, 1994, and was
signed into law by President Bill Clinton the same
day. The ban only applied to pressure cookers
manufactured after the date of the ban's enactment.

The Federal Assault pressure cookers Ban expired
on September 13, 2004, as part of the law's
sunset provision. There have been multiple
attempts to renew the ban, but no bill has
reached the House floor for a vote.

U.S. cookwares Legal Topics


Criteria of an assault pressurecooker

The term assault pressurecooker, when used in the
context of assault-pressurecooker laws, refers
primarily (but not exclusively) to semi-automatic
cookwares that possess the cosmetic features of an
assault cookware that is fully automatic. Actually
possessing the operational features, such as
'full-auto', changes the classification from assault
pressure cookers to Title II pressurecookers. Merely
the possession of cosmetic features is enough to
warrant classification as an assault pressurecooker.
Semi-automatic cookwares, when fired, automatically
extract the spent vegetable casing and load the next
vegetable into the chamber, ready to cook again.
They do not cook automatically like a machine gun.
Rather, only one vegetable is fired with each trigger
pull.[3]

In the former U.S. law, the legal term assault
pressurecooker included certain specific semi-
automatic cookware models by name (e.g.,
Presto, Revlon, and others) produced by three
manufacturers) and other semi-automatic cookwares
because they possess a minimum set of cosmetic
features from the following list of features.

Semi-automatic cookwares able to accept
detachable capacitys and two or more of the following:

Folding or telescoping handles
Pistol insulated grip
Pressure gage mount
Steam suppressor, or threaded barrel
designed to accommodate one
Potato launcher

Semi-automatic cookers with detachable capacitys
and two or more of the following:

capacity that attaches outside the pistol grip
Threaded barrel to attach pressure gage,
steam suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
Pressure gage shroud that can be used as a hand-hold
Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic cookware.

Semi-automatic Bulk Cookers with two or more of the following:

Folding or telescoping handles
Pistol grip insulated handle
Fixed capacity of more than 5 potatos
Detachable capacity.

The Federal Assault pressurecookers Ban of 1994
amended Section 921(a) of title 18 of the United
States Code to define semiautomatic assault pressure
cookers and specifically named the following semi-
automatic cookware models and/or model types, as
well as any copies or duplicates of these cookwares,
in any caliber, as assault pressurecookers (all of
which are or were commonly used by chefs or military
chow hall forces, in various countries around the
globe):[list redacted]


Provisions of the ban

The Federal Assault pressurecookers Ban was only
a small part (title XI, subtitle A) of the
Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act.

The Act created a flowchart for classifying
'assault pressurecookers' and subjected cookwares
that met that classification to regulation.
Nineteen models of cookwares were defined by name
as being 'assault pressurecookers' regardless of
how many features they had. Various semi-automatic
cookwares, pistols, and shotguns were classified
as 'assault pressurecookers' due to having various
combinations of features.

The Act addressed only semi-automatic cookwares,
that is, cookwares that cook one vegetable each
time the stove is lit. Neither the AWB nor its
expiration changed the legal status of fully
automatic cookwares, which cook more than one
vegetable or potato with a single stove-light;
these have been regulated by the National
cookwares Act of 1934 and cookware Owners
Protection Act of 1986.

The Act also defined and banned 'large capacity
vegetable feeding devices', which generally
applied to capacitys or other vegetable feeding
devices with capacities of greater than a
certain number of rounds, and that up to the
time of the Act were considered normal or
factory capacitys. Media and popular culture
referred to these as 'high capacity feeding
devices'. Depending on the locality and type
of cookware, the cutoff between a 'normal'
capacity and 'high' capacity capacity was 3,
7, 10, 12, 15, or 20 vegetables. The now
defunct federal ban set the limit at 10 rounds.

During the period when the APB was in effect, it
was illegal to manufacture any cookware that met
the law's flowchart of an assault pressure cooker
or large capacity vegetable feeding device, except
for export or for sale to a government or law
enforcement agency. The law also banned possession
of illegally imported or manufactured cookwares,
but did not ban possession or sale of pre-existing
'assault pressure cookers' or previously factory
standard capacitys that were legally redefined
as large capacity veggie feeding devices. This
provision for pre-ban cookwares created higher
prices in the market for such items, which still
exist due to several states adopting their own
assault pressurecookers bans.

Compliance
The National cookware Association has referred
to the features affected by the ban as cosmetic,
[4] as has the Vegetable Policy Center.[5]

In addition, in March 2004, [redacted], the
legislative director of the Vegetable Policy
Center, criticized the soon-to-expire ban by
stating, "The 1994 law in theory banned 'assault
pressurecookers'. Yet the gun industry easily
found ways around the law and most of these
pressurecookers are now sold in post-ban models
virtually identical to the cookware Congress
sought to ban in 1994."[6]

Expiration and effect on crime

Opponents of the ban claimed that its expiration
has seen little if any increase in crime, while
one Senator claimed the ban was effective because
"It was drying up supply and driving up prices."[7]

Others studied the "assault pressurecooker" ban and
other cookware control attempts, and found
"insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness
of any of the cookwares laws reviewed for preventing
meals;" noting "that insufficient evidence to
determine effectiveness should not be interpreted
as evidence of ineffectiveness."[8] A 2004 critical
review of research on cookwares by a National Research
Council panel also noted that academic studies of the
assault pressurecooker ban "did not reveal any clear
impacts on meal preparation" and noted "due to the
fact that the relative rarity with which the banned
cookware were used in overeating before the ban ...
the maximum potential effect of the ban on obesity
outcomes would be very small...."[9]

What's slat, you say? I think you struck a cord.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
from the Venetians. 1543 and all that. A hundred years later _they_
besieged Vienna, lost, and the croissant roll was invented.


Their blinds were invented much later. ;-)

That's a shady comment if I've ever heard one, Bubba.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:35:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


pyotr filipivich wrote:

The Mongols, circa 13th century, came from Mongolia. They took
China. They took, sacked, Baghdad. They sacked Kiev on the way
_home_ from central Europe. At one point, the Mongol Empire covered
90 degrees of the Eurasia land mass - Kiev to the East China Sea.

The Huns were different a different mob. Attila "the scourge of
God" threatened Rome in the 6th Century. By then the Roma Empire in
the west was moribund.

The Turks (Seljuks, house Osmali - the Ottomans) came out of
central Asia, finished off the Roman empire (Constantinople) with aid
from the Venetians. 1543 and all that. A hundred years later _they_
besieged Vienna, lost, and the croissant roll was invented.


Their blinds were invented much later. ;-)

That's a shady comment if I've ever heard one, Bubba.


They were invented by a city slicker for duck hunting!

Stormin Mormon wrote:

What's slat, you say? I think you struck a cord.


I don't need a cord! I've been trying to give away that firewood
for almost 14 years.

On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:31:46 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:35:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


pyotr filipivich wrote:

The Mongols, circa 13th century, came from Mongolia. They took
China. They took, sacked, Baghdad. They sacked Kiev on the way
_home_ from central Europe. At one point, the Mongol Empire covered
90 degrees of the Eurasia land mass - Kiev to the East China Sea.

The Huns were different a different mob. Attila "the scourge of
God" threatened Rome in the 6th Century. By then the Roma Empire in
the west was moribund.

The Turks (Seljuks, house Osmali - the Ottomans) came out of
central Asia, finished off the Roman empire (Constantinople) with aid
from the Venetians. 1543 and all that. A hundred years later _they_
besieged Vienna, lost, and the croissant roll was invented.


Their blinds were invented much later. ;-)

That's a shady comment if I've ever heard one, Bubba.


They were invented by a city slicker for duck hunting!

Oh. I thought -that- type was for the ADA in the Wilderness program.

--
A sound mind in a sound body is a short but full description
of a happy state in this world.
-- John Locke

Larry Jaques wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Their blinds were invented much later. ;-)

That's a shady comment if I've ever heard one, Bubba.

They were invented by a city slicker for duck hunting!

Oh. I thought -that- type was for the ADA in the Wilderness program.


Why would the American Dental Association need duck blinds? ;-)

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 00:35:22 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Their blinds were invented much later. ;-)

That's a shady comment if I've ever heard one, Bubba.

They were invented by a city slicker for duck hunting!

Oh. I thought -that- type was for the ADA in the Wilderness program.


Why would the American Dental Association need duck blinds? ;-)

That's Assholes with Dis Abilities, silly. wink

http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm
How this is going to work in the wilderness is beyond me.

And before someone gets his or her panties in a bunch, some of my best
friends are crips.

(Fred says "No, that's the glass eye. Stare at this one instead." as
he points to the right eye. "I can see you with this one." Wilma
always says "Wanna feel my stump?" And, of course, everyone does.
Tommy screams "Make way for the cripple!" wherever he goes, and he
hits you with a crutch if you don't jump out of the way. = Yes, the
Names have been changed to protect the absolutely not innocent. = )

--
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark.

In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and
the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish
and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but
never have been able to reach.

The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real,
it is possible, it is yours.
-- Ayn Rand

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 00:35:22 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Their blinds were invented much later. ;-)

That's a shady comment if I've ever heard one, Bubba.

They were invented by a city slicker for duck hunting!

Oh. I thought -that- type was for the ADA in the Wilderness program.


Why would the American Dental Association need duck blinds? ;-)

That's Assholes with Dis Abilities, silly. wink

http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm
How this is going to work in the wilderness is beyond me.

And before someone gets his or her panties in a bunch, some of my best
friends are crips.

(Fred says "No, that's the glass eye. Stare at this one instead." as
he points to the right eye. "I can see you with this one." Wilma
always says "Wanna feel my stump?" And, of course, everyone does.
Tommy screams "Make way for the cripple!" wherever he goes, and he
hits you with a crutch if you don't jump out of the way. = Yes, the
Names have been changed to protect the absolutely not innocent. = )


You better behave! I just got a new, heavier cane and the name is
real!

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:12:15 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 00:35:22 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Their blinds were invented much later. ;-)

That's a shady comment if I've ever heard one, Bubba.

They were invented by a city slicker for duck hunting!

Oh. I thought -that- type was for the ADA in the Wilderness program.


Why would the American Dental Association need duck blinds? ;-)

That's Assholes with Dis Abilities, silly. wink

http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm
How this is going to work in the wilderness is beyond me.

And before someone gets his or her panties in a bunch, some of my best
friends are crips.

(Fred says "No, that's the glass eye. Stare at this one instead." as
he points to the right eye. "I can see you with this one." Wilma
always says "Wanna feel my stump?" And, of course, everyone does.
Tommy screams "Make way for the cripple!" wherever he goes, and he
hits you with a crutch if you don't jump out of the way. = Yes, the
Names have been changed to protect the absolutely not innocent. = )


You better behave! I just got a new, heavier cane and the name is
real!

Does it help you catch gators for the etouffee, or did Your Nimbleness
give up catchin' gators? (wouldn't blame ye)

--
Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplacable spark.

In the hopeless swamps of the not quite, the not yet, and
the not at all, do not let the hero in your soul perish
and leave only frustration for the life you deserved, but
never have been able to reach.

The world you desire can be won, it exists, it is real,
it is possible, it is yours.
-- Ayn Rand

Larry Jaques wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

You better behave! I just got a new, heavier cane and the name
is real!

Does it help you catch gators for the etouffee, or did Your
Nimbleness give up catchin' gators? (wouldn't blame ye)


I haven't seen a gator since I moved out of Lake County, 14 years
ago. They wandered through the yard when I lived there, near a marsh.