I finally found a Darex E90 endmill sharpener in CHERRY condition, and with
all the collets, stones, guide finger... even a stand, for $1400!

YES... no more dull bits!

LLoyd

On 5/5/2012 12:19 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
I finally found a Darex E90 endmill sharpener in CHERRY condition, and with
all the collets, stones, guide finger... even a stand, for $1400!

YES... no more dull bits!

LLoyd

Nice! I'd love to get one of those all in one cnc sharpeners for the shop.

I think you're enjoying this too much.

On second thought, congrats and carry on.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I finally found a Darex E90 endmill sharpener in CHERRY condition, and with
all the collets, stones, guide finger... even a stand, for $1400!

YES... no more dull bits!

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I finally found a Darex E90 endmill sharpener in CHERRY condition, and with
all the collets, stones, guide finger... even a stand, for $1400!

YES... no more dull bits!


Actually, endmills sharpened on a Darex are nowhere near the quality of
those sharpened on better equipment and also, the machine is woefully
inadequate for reconditioning ends.

Still, MUCH better than nothing...

FWIW : you might want to get a white wheel from Darex ( 80 / 100 grit or
so ) for roughing etc of HSS because although the borazon does produce
better finished work, it is painfully slow where you have any kind of
substantial amount of metal that needs to be removed.

If I was to do it all over, I would probably go with a cuttermaster instead,
or better yet, a weldon air bar and a #2 Cincy or KO Lee

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley
in news:5PSdndv_EPr9EjjSnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@scnresearch. com:

FWIW : you might want to get a white wheel from Darex ( 80 / 100 grit or
so ) for roughing etc of HSS because although the borazon does produce
better finished work, it is painfully slow where you have any kind of
substantial amount of metal that needs to be removed.

80-grit white wheel comes with.

Most of my cutters only need "tuning". I seldom chip one, and never let
them get dull to the point of gumming up.

Lloyd

On 2012-05-05, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
I finally found a Darex E90 endmill sharpener in CHERRY condition, and with
all the collets, stones, guide finger... even a stand, for $1400!

YES... no more dull bits!

LLoyd

Wow, you bought it just 4 hours after it was listed!

Congrats,

i

On 2012-05-05, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I finally found a Darex E90 endmill sharpener in CHERRY condition, and with
all the collets, stones, guide finger... even a stand, for $1400!

YES... no more dull bits!


Actually, endmills sharpened on a Darex are nowhere near the quality of
those sharpened on better equipment and also, the machine is woefully
inadequate for reconditioning ends.

Still, MUCH better than nothing...

FWIW : you might want to get a white wheel from Darex ( 80 / 100 grit or
so ) for roughing etc of HSS because although the borazon does produce
better finished work, it is painfully slow where you have any kind of
substantial amount of metal that needs to be removed.

If I was to do it all over, I would probably go with a cuttermaster instead,
or better yet, a weldon air bar and a #2 Cincy or KO Lee



I have a cinci #2 for sale

Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

Wow, you bought it just 4 hours after it was listed!


I promised myself if I could find one under $1500, and with all the toys, I
would get it.

Just on a lark, I checked to day, and it had a BIN price. Bingo!

LLoyd

On 2012-05-05, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

Wow, you bought it just 4 hours after it was listed!


I promised myself if I could find one under $1500, and with all the toys, I
would get it.

Just on a lark, I checked to day, and it had a BIN price. Bingo!

LLoyd

I sold a very nice Cuttermaster for $750 or so half a year ago...

i

Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

I sold a very nice Cuttermaster for $750 or so half a year ago...

Cuttermasters are nice, too. Was that a Cuttermaster Pro, or the
"small" version? How new? How many collets? Stand? The E90 I got is
virtually virgin, and everything's in the kit.

Despite PM's post, I have it on authority from a couple of other regular
users that a _skilled_ user of an E90 can make very close to factory-new
edges AND ends on milling cutters. Only, like so many things, it takes
some skill. PM probably hasn't spent the time to learn. I'm retired.
I'll find the time.

So... Ok... I ruin a dozen junked bits that are useless anyway. I'm an
apt student. Bet I either figure out how to make it work to snuff, or
figure out why it can't -- and fix it! G

These things are not complicated, but they are expensive in terms of time
to build from scratch. Even a ready-made machine that doesn't work
_quite_ right would be easier to fix than making one myself, and I can
guarantee that the $1400 I paid was less expensive than the cost of the
'normal' fully-equipped jig Plus a Cincy #2.

I just signed a new, large 8-month contract for machines Friday. I need
time and sharp bits. I don't need to make the machine to sharpen them.


LLoyd

On 2012-05-05, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

I sold a very nice Cuttermaster for $750 or so half a year ago...

Cuttermasters are nice, too. Was that a Cuttermaster Pro, or the
"small" version? How new? How many collets? Stand? The E90 I got is
virtually virgin, and everything's in the kit.

Despite PM's post, I have it on authority from a couple of other regular
users that a _skilled_ user of an E90 can make very close to factory-new
edges AND ends on milling cutters. Only, like so many things, it takes
some skill. PM probably hasn't spent the time to learn. I'm retired.
I'll find the time.

So... Ok... I ruin a dozen junked bits that are useless anyway. I'm an
apt student. Bet I either figure out how to make it work to snuff, or
figure out why it can't -- and fix it! G

These things are not complicated, but they are expensive in terms of time
to build from scratch. Even a ready-made machine that doesn't work
_quite_ right would be easier to fix than making one myself, and I can
guarantee that the $1400 I paid was less expensive than the cost of the
'normal' fully-equipped jig Plus a Cincy #2.

I just signed a new, large 8-month contract for machines Friday. I need
time and sharp bits. I don't need to make the machine to sharpen them.


LLoyd

Lloyd, I am very interested, myself, as to

1) Whether one can do a good job sharpening dull end mills
2) How long does it take.

Keep us updated.

i

Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

Lloyd, I am very interested, myself, as to

1) Whether one can do a good job sharpening dull end mills
2) How long does it take.

Keep us updated.

Well, I committed to the payment, so I guess I'll be learning to do it!
G

I'll keep you informed.

From one friend, he estimates less than five minutes to 'tune up' a
slightly-dulled 3/4" 4-flute bit that is not chipped. I will find out.

I will have to invest in a measuring device to handle 3-flute bits, or
I'll have to work up the math to figure the new o.d. with a micrometer
after the flutes have been ground.


LLoyd

On 2012-05-06, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

Lloyd, I am very interested, myself, as to

1) Whether one can do a good job sharpening dull end mills
2) How long does it take.

Keep us updated.

Well, I committed to the payment, so I guess I'll be learning to do it!
G

I'll keep you informed.

From one friend, he estimates less than five minutes to 'tune up' a
slightly-dulled 3/4" 4-flute bit that is not chipped. I will find out.

I will have to invest in a measuring device to handle 3-flute bits, or
I'll have to work up the math to figure the new o.d. with a micrometer
after the flutes have been ground.


Keep us posted. End mills seem to be very cheap at Enco. Say, a 2
flute 1/2 end mill is $9.99, double ended. With carbide, though,
economies would be substantial.

Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

Keep us posted. End mills seem to be very cheap at Enco. Say, a 2
flute 1/2 end mill is $9.99, double ended. With carbide, though,
economies would be substantial.

Ig, one thing I have found is that it's worth the money to go with
premium US-made endmills, even when you're talking about HSS.

I have several 3/4" and larger milling cutters 4" long. They are
immensely expensive (per pound), and the Chicom cutters just don't keep
cutting cleanly for about 1/4 of the time the good US cutters do.

It might be the grinding. If so, I'm about to learn an expensive lesson
(one way or the other). But since these E-90 machines sell all day long
(used) for more than $1600, I figure I'm pretty safe.

LLoyd

On 2012-05-06, Ignoramus18788 wrote:
On 2012-05-06, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

[ ... ]

I will have to invest in a measuring device to handle 3-flute bits, or
I'll have to work up the math to figure the new o.d. with a micrometer
after the flutes have been ground.

That means that you will want a V-anvil micrometer. Note that
there are two styles with different V-angles. One for 3-flute, and the
other for 5-flute.

Keep us posted. End mills seem to be very cheap at Enco. Say, a 2
flute 1/2 end mill is $9.99, double ended. With carbide, though,
economies would be substantial.


And likely need a diamond wheel to sharpen them.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

I sold a very nice Cuttermaster for $750 or so half a year ago...

Cuttermasters are nice, too. Was that a Cuttermaster Pro, or the
"small" version? How new? How many collets? Stand? The E90 I got is
virtually virgin, and everything's in the kit.

Despite PM's post, I have it on authority from a couple of other regular
users that a _skilled_ user of an E90 can make very close to factory-new
edges AND ends on milling cutters. Only, like so many things, it takes
some skill. PM probably hasn't spent the time to learn. I'm retired.
I'll find the time.



Dude...

I've been a machinist for nearly 35 years now, pretty much my entire working
life...

14 years of that time was at Boeing, where I spent quite a bit of time
grinding tools and parts of all sorts and I've been supporting my family by
running my own shop ever since ~1997 when I quit Boeing and beings as I've
actually been using my own Darex E90 for about 16 years now, I'm here to
tell you that there's simply no way in hell that you are EVER going to get
the thing to produce edges that are anyrthing near to "factory new"....

Sorry, but it just ain't gonna happen no way no how....

Yhe machine is seriously lacking in mass for one thing, and you are NEVER
going to get the wheel head to run even close to balanced and even if you
did, the residual vibration is still going to give you a crappy
micro-finish...you *might do a little better if you ditch that flimsy little
bedframe steel stand and set it onto a sturdy cabinet or a granite plate
but...

At this point, I'm pretty well convinced that your "couple of regular users"
are either pulling your leg, have never used better equipment, and/or seldom
purchase new endmills or more likely some combination of the above.

That said, they are what they are, mine has probably saved me nearly 100
grand over the years, but there are a handful of jobs that I run here where
I really do need a high quality grind, and those tools I send out, mostly
because I do not have the floor space for another grinder.


So... Ok... I ruin a dozen junked bits that are useless anyway. I'm an
apt student. Bet I either figure out how to make it work to snuff, or
figure out why it can't -- and fix it! G

These things are not complicated, but they are expensive in terms of time
to build from scratch. Even a ready-made machine that doesn't work
_quite_ right would be easier to fix than making one myself, and I can
guarantee that the $1400 I paid was less expensive than the cost of the
'normal' fully-equipped jig Plus a Cincy #2.

I just signed a new, large 8-month contract for machines Friday. I need
time and sharp bits. I don't need to make the machine to sharpen them.


LLoyd

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley
in news:TsKdndzOH4OXuTvSnZ2dnUVZ_h2dnZ2d@scnresearch. com:

At this point, I'm pretty well convinced that your "couple of regular
users" are either pulling your leg, have never used better equipment,
and/or seldom purchase new endmills or more likely some combination of
the above.

That said, they are what they are, mine has probably saved me nearly
100 grand over the years, but there are a handful of jobs that I run
here where I really do need a high quality grind, and those tools I
send out, mostly because I do not have the floor space for another
grinder.

Maybe from your elevated perch of actually doing the machining itself for
a living, you don't see things from the perspective of 'normal' people
who build stuff for a living, and only do machining as an expedient to
getting stuff built.

If you - as a 35-year veteran PRECISION machinist - have only a
'handful' of jobs needing a better-ground cutter than the Darex can
produce, then you've just admitted it will do one hell of a good job.
Either that, or folks don't trust your skills enough to give you more
than a handful of jobs requiring good finish. I would hope it's the
former and not the latter.

I have a spare granite plate occupying the same spot now that the E90
would fit nicely into. That's a good idea.


Lloyd

LLoyd

On Sat, 05 May 2012 19:28:35 -0500, Ignoramus18788
wrote:

On 2012-05-05, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

I sold a very nice Cuttermaster for $750 or so half a year ago...

Cuttermasters are nice, too. Was that a Cuttermaster Pro, or the
"small" version? How new? How many collets? Stand? The E90 I got is
virtually virgin, and everything's in the kit.

Despite PM's post, I have it on authority from a couple of other regular
users that a _skilled_ user of an E90 can make very close to factory-new
edges AND ends on milling cutters. Only, like so many things, it takes
some skill. PM probably hasn't spent the time to learn. I'm retired.
I'll find the time.

So... Ok... I ruin a dozen junked bits that are useless anyway. I'm an
apt student. Bet I either figure out how to make it work to snuff, or
figure out why it can't -- and fix it! G

These things are not complicated, but they are expensive in terms of time
to build from scratch. Even a ready-made machine that doesn't work
_quite_ right would be easier to fix than making one myself, and I can
guarantee that the $1400 I paid was less expensive than the cost of the
'normal' fully-equipped jig Plus a Cincy #2.

I just signed a new, large 8-month contract for machines Friday. I need
time and sharp bits. I don't need to make the machine to sharpen them.


LLoyd

Lloyd, I am very interested, myself, as to

1) Whether one can do a good job sharpening dull end mills
2) How long does it take.

Keep us updated.

i

Did you keep that Monoset you had a while back? I have one, its far
more versatile for making custom tools. IMHO, custom cutters is the
reason to have tool grinding abilty.

I've done a whole bunch of end mill re-sharp. its slow work, no way
around that. I'm a cheap skate, but i don't work that cheap. For
standard end mills, just watch fleabay for deals. As my son says,
there must be thousands of machinists walking top quality stuff home
from their job and taking what they can get.

Karl

On 2012-05-06, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Sat, 05 May 2012 19:28:35 -0500, Ignoramus18788
wrote:

On 2012-05-05, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

I sold a very nice Cuttermaster for $750 or so half a year ago...

Cuttermasters are nice, too. Was that a Cuttermaster Pro, or the
"small" version? How new? How many collets? Stand? The E90 I got is
virtually virgin, and everything's in the kit.

Despite PM's post, I have it on authority from a couple of other regular
users that a _skilled_ user of an E90 can make very close to factory-new
edges AND ends on milling cutters. Only, like so many things, it takes
some skill. PM probably hasn't spent the time to learn. I'm retired.
I'll find the time.

So... Ok... I ruin a dozen junked bits that are useless anyway. I'm an
apt student. Bet I either figure out how to make it work to snuff, or
figure out why it can't -- and fix it! G

These things are not complicated, but they are expensive in terms of time
to build from scratch. Even a ready-made machine that doesn't work
_quite_ right would be easier to fix than making one myself, and I can
guarantee that the $1400 I paid was less expensive than the cost of the
'normal' fully-equipped jig Plus a Cincy #2.

I just signed a new, large 8-month contract for machines Friday. I need
time and sharp bits. I don't need to make the machine to sharpen them.


LLoyd

Lloyd, I am very interested, myself, as to

1) Whether one can do a good job sharpening dull end mills
2) How long does it take.

Keep us updated.

i

Did you keep that Monoset you had a while back? I have one, its far
more versatile for making custom tools. IMHO, custom cutters is the
reason to have tool grinding abilty.

I've done a whole bunch of end mill re-sharp. its slow work, no way
around that. I'm a cheap skate, but i don't work that cheap. For
standard end mills, just watch fleabay for deals. As my son says,
there must be thousands of machinists walking top quality stuff home
from their job and taking what they can get.

Karl

I sold that Monoset for $2,500.

The buyer showed up in a full suit, with a hat that had a feather in
it.

In addition, he has two smoking hot daughters with him, who helped
with loading of this monoset.

Regarding end mills, I agree with you, more or less. It is cheaper to
buy new end mills, or buy them at auctions, for cash, or have Bob
sharpen my endmills.

Bob is the guy who does T&C grinding and who sold me my warehouse
building. He could not own this building due to real estate taxes. His
2011 tax was raised to $49,000 PER YEAR, and the only thing he could
do is sell the building for whatever he could get. He sold it to me,
and due to purchase price, my real estate tax was lowered to $21k per
year.

He was already behind on taxes and could do nothing.

I strongly feel that it is unfair, but at least I am on the better
side of this unfairness.

i

In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:

[snip]

Regarding end mills, I agree with you, more or less. It is cheaper to
buy new end mills, or buy them at auctions, for cash, or have Bob
sharpen my endmills.

Bob is the guy who does T&C grinding and who sold me my warehouse
building. He could not own this building due to real estate taxes. His
2011 tax was raised to $49,000 PER YEAR, and the only thing he could
do is sell the building for whatever he could get. He sold it to me,
and due to purchase price, my real estate tax was lowered to $21k per
year.

He was already behind on taxes and could do nothing.

I strongly feel that it is unfair, but at least I am on the better
side of this unfairness.

Sounds like there is an interesting story here. Why couldn't Bob get
the reduction without selling?

Joe Gwinn

On 2012-05-06, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:

[snip]

Regarding end mills, I agree with you, more or less. It is cheaper to
buy new end mills, or buy them at auctions, for cash, or have Bob
sharpen my endmills.

Bob is the guy who does T&C grinding and who sold me my warehouse
building. He could not own this building due to real estate taxes. His
2011 tax was raised to $49,000 PER YEAR, and the only thing he could
do is sell the building for whatever he could get. He sold it to me,
and due to purchase price, my real estate tax was lowered to $21k per
year.

He was already behind on taxes and could do nothing.

I strongly feel that it is unfair, but at least I am on the better
side of this unfairness.

Sounds like there is an interesting story here. Why couldn't Bob get
the reduction without selling?

I am not a RE expert. Here's what I understand. The county "thought"
that his building was worth $670k. He could not prove to the county
that it was not worth that much, without actually selling the
building.

Since I bought it in an arms length transaction, I could easily prove
that the building is worth the purchase price ($280k), because this is
what I paid for it. The county accepted the price of the transaction
as estimated value, and my taxes were reduced proportionally.

Of course, I had to pay 1/3 of the first year's reduction to the
lawyers that I retained.

i

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley
in news:TsKdndzOH4OXuTvSnZ2dnUVZ_h2dnZ2d@scnresearch. com:

At this point, I'm pretty well convinced that your "couple of regular
users" are either pulling your leg, have never used better equipment,
and/or seldom purchase new endmills or more likely some combination of
the above.

That said, they are what they are, mine has probably saved me nearly
100 grand over the years, but there are a handful of jobs that I run
here where I really do need a high quality grind, and those tools I
send out, mostly because I do not have the floor space for another
grinder.

Maybe from your elevated perch

No "elevated perch"

--it's just that I've had a darex for a LONG time now and I've actually used
it to sharpen endmills many thousands of times.

You, on the other hand, have probably never sharpened an endmill in your
entire life, yet here you are you are, trying to tell me how great of a job
it does....

of actually doing the machining itself for
a living, you don't see things from the perspective of 'normal' people
who build stuff for a living, and only do machining as an expedient to
getting stuff built.


LOL--not sure what your problem is. You think I don't "build stuff" for a
living ?

As though having spent about 2 decades building gearboxes and control
surface actuaters, landing gear parts and so forth for commercial airliners
somehow doesn't count as "building stuff" ?

And nowadays, I own and manufacture an entire product line--tools for the
discriminating model builder; I have a global distribution network
comprising over 60 retail sellers in 21 countries across the globe.

I have 3 Fadal machining centers and a Bridgeport FMS 4 axis cell with 80
tools ATC and 8 300 mm work pallets.

I have 2 cnc swiss...Maurobeni Citizen

--a pair of German Lathes made by Weiler...A Hardinge TR and a Tsugami Super
precision.

And other small /manual machine tools too numerous to mention...

You think all of the tooling and the workholding fixtures and what not just
magically appeared in my shop one day ?

Oh almost forgot--I'm also in the process of building a 5 x 12 foot router,
but that is for my oldest son, because I do not want it to stay in my
basement forever... maybe I'll post a picture some day...

Sheesh...

If you - as a 35-year veteran PRECISION machinist - have only a
'handful' of jobs needing a better-ground cutter than the Darex can
produce, then you've just admitted it will do one hell of a good job.

BUT IT WON'T produce anything even closely resembling a factory
grind....something which you are apparently having an exceptionally rough
time comprehending....


I actually do know when and where a factory grind REALLY is needed; and I
also know when even a factory grind simply won't do, in which case I either
send the work out to a grind shop or else I mount a grinding wheel onto a
cat40 holder, dressing it with a macro so that my height offsets remain
stable.


Either that, or folks don't trust your skills enough to give you more

Actually, when it comes to 'job shop' work, I've trimmed my customer base
drastically over the years by turning away the vast majority of work, to the
point where nowadays, any contract work that I DO accept is pretty darned
complex, and on a VERY tightly compressed time schedule, specifically,
orbital defense and communication hardware where the proposed launch date is
under a significant threat of delay.

http://img34.imageshack.us/i/dsc0015mv.jpg/


FWIW, all of those parts were validated as having a 16 finish or better
despite their visual appearance...


than a handful of jobs requiring good finish. I would hope it's the
former and not the latter.


Pretty sure your idea of a "good finsh" differs considerably from mine; for
me, surface finish is a quantifiable technical measurement that defines (and
limits) viable process options and ultimately effects customer rejection and
mechanical failure rates.

And since anyone who expends additional time and resources in order to
produce a finish that is "better" than customer requirements is likely to go
out of business fairly soon, through the years it's been important for me to
have a fairly thorough understanding of all the variables affecting part
finish.

Mostly, though, due to the function of the tools I make, I need a 90 degree
'knife edge' on the finished part...basically a knife edge, in aluminum..the
target being ZERO raised burr as observed under a microscope, which is
physically impossible in the first place, and the situation only worsens
where you have a friggen sub-miniature mountain ridge on your the cutting
tools.


I have a spare granite plate occupying the same spot now that the E90
would fit nicely into. That's a good idea.


I sold all my "spare granite plates" many years ago, floor space is too
valuable.....

I'm in need of another knee surgery; I've grown tired of tripping over and
having to walk around a bunch of machinery and **** that seldom if ever
actually generates revenue.

Sorry to burst your bubble but as I said before, the darex simply is NOT
capable of producing anything even closely resembling a factory grind and
your attempts at marginalizing my experience and skill level simply is not
going to change that fact.


Anyways, I have better things to do...congratulations on your purchase....

--if you got the radius attachment, I'm fairly certain you are going to be
hugely dissapointed with it.

Also, you will probably want to get the borazon and diamond wheels--these
will give you a MUCH finer grind as compared to aluminum oxide and the
green...and while it will do a reasonable job in sharpening the end primary,
you'll probably also come to agree that the cam system that lowers the air
bar for grinding of the end secondary is an exceedingly hoakey setup and so
like me, out of frustration, you'll probably end up routinely doing that by
hand on a bench grinder for any tools that are over say 3/8 inch diameter or
so.

Other than that, it is likely to save you quite a bit of money if you are
currently sending out lots of tools for od grind so long as the vast
majority of your work falls into the "utility" category...

In other words, basically it's simply another cool toy unless you would have
spent a similar amount of money on outside tool grinding such that a return
on your investment will occur within a reasonable time period.


Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Ignoramus18788 fired this volley in
:

Lloyd, I am very interested, myself, as to

1) Whether one can do a good job sharpening dull end mills
2) How long does it take.

Keep us updated.

Well, I committed to the payment, so I guess I'll be learning to do it!
G

I'll keep you informed.

From one friend, he estimates less than five minutes to 'tune up' a
slightly-dulled 3/4" 4-flute bit that is not chipped. I will find out.

I will have to invest in a measuring device to handle 3-flute bits, or
I'll have to work up the math to figure the new o.d. with a micrometer
after the flutes have been ground.


Lay it on a surface plate, touch off on the od with a height gage for a zero
reading and then take another reading off of the flute. Now, double the
difference and subtract it from the shank dia.

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley
in :

Lay it on a surface plate, touch off on the od with a height gage for
a zero reading and then take another reading off of the flute. Now,
double the difference and subtract it from the shank dia.

Good advice, and simple. Thank you. I do other indirect measurements all
the time.

Now, if the beginning of the _other_ conversation had gone this way:

LS - "Wow! I just scored on a tool I've wanted for a long time! yay!"
PM - "Well, I've owned one for years, and it's saved me lots of money,
but here's what it can and can't do..."

Instead of:
LS - "Wow! I just scored on a tool I've wanted for a long time! yay!"
PM - "Piece of junk. Dumb purchase. (Even though I own one and have
saved a $100K with it.)"

then the rest of the conversation might have gone differently. It seemed
to me that your only intent for responding at all was to try to crush my
enjoyment of having bought it. Of course I would bite back. Wouldn't
you, with the shoe on the other foot?

I just bought a used Solberga 2HP drill press with power-down, in very
nice condition. I was happy about it. Was that a stupid purchase, too?

Lloyd

In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:

On 2012-05-06, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:

[snip]

Regarding end mills, I agree with you, more or less. It is cheaper to
buy new end mills, or buy them at auctions, for cash, or have Bob
sharpen my endmills.

Bob is the guy who does T&C grinding and who sold me my warehouse
building. He could not own this building due to real estate taxes. His
2011 tax was raised to $49,000 PER YEAR, and the only thing he could
do is sell the building for whatever he could get. He sold it to me,
and due to purchase price, my real estate tax was lowered to $21k per
year.

He was already behind on taxes and could do nothing.

I strongly feel that it is unfair, but at least I am on the better
side of this unfairness.

Sounds like there is an interesting story here. Why couldn't Bob get
the reduction without selling?

I am not a RE expert. Here's what I understand. The county "thought"
that his building was worth $670k. He could not prove to the county
that it was not worth that much, without actually selling the
building.

Were there no other comparable sales nearby? That's the usual approach.


Since I bought it in an arms length transaction, I could easily prove
that the building is worth the purchase price ($280k), because this is
what I paid for it. The county accepted the price of the transaction
as estimated value, and my taxes were reduced proportionally.

At this point, the County is legally cornered by state law. So sad.


Of course, I had to pay 1/3 of the first year's reduction to the
lawyers that I retained.

This may be the key. Bob may have been unwilling to hire a mean-enough
lawyer: 49000/3= $16,333. It sounds like a lot of money, but was repaid
in the first year. But, this should not have been necessary.

Joe Gwinn

On 2012-05-07, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:

On 2012-05-06, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:

[snip]

Regarding end mills, I agree with you, more or less. It is cheaper to
buy new end mills, or buy them at auctions, for cash, or have Bob
sharpen my endmills.

Bob is the guy who does T&C grinding and who sold me my warehouse
building. He could not own this building due to real estate taxes. His
2011 tax was raised to $49,000 PER YEAR, and the only thing he could
do is sell the building for whatever he could get. He sold it to me,
and due to purchase price, my real estate tax was lowered to $21k per
year.

He was already behind on taxes and could do nothing.

I strongly feel that it is unfair, but at least I am on the better
side of this unfairness.

Sounds like there is an interesting story here. Why couldn't Bob get
the reduction without selling?

I am not a RE expert. Here's what I understand. The county "thought"
that his building was worth $670k. He could not prove to the county
that it was not worth that much, without actually selling the
building.

Were there no other comparable sales nearby? That's the usual approach.

It is very possible that there were not any comparable sales. Plus, it
is easy for the county to dismiss them during hearings.


Since I bought it in an arms length transaction, I could easily prove
that the building is worth the purchase price ($280k), because this is
what I paid for it. The county accepted the price of the transaction
as estimated value, and my taxes were reduced proportionally.

At this point, the County is legally cornered by state law. So sad.


Of course, I had to pay 1/3 of the first year's reduction to the
lawyers that I retained.

This may be the key. Bob may have been unwilling to hire a mean-enough
lawyer: 49000/3= $16,333. It sounds like a lot of money, but was repaid
in the first year. But, this should not have been necessary.

As far as I know, and I do know, he did hire a lawyer every
reassessment, and was not successful. That info is publicly available,
that is how I know.

This is why I strongly feel that it is unfair.

i

On 2012-05-07, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:
Of course, I had to pay 1/3 of the first year's reduction to the
lawyers that I retained.

This may be the key. Bob may have been unwilling to hire a mean-enough
lawyer: 49000/3= $16,333. It sounds like a lot of money, but was repaid
in the first year. But, this should not have been necessary.

By the way, this math does not quite work like this.

1. The fee is 1/3 of the first year's reduction, in this case,

1/3 * (49000-21000).

This is about 9k in my case, which is the amount on the check that I
mailed yesterday.

2. The fee is contingent upon reduction, you owe lawyers nothing
unless they reduce taxes.

So, in other words, there is not much risk in retaining a lawyer.

i

On 5/6/2012 10:27 PM, Ignoramus11847 wrote:
On 2012-05-07, Joseph wrote:
In articleL56dna5BaZzPIjvSnZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
Of course, I had to pay 1/3 of the first year's reduction to the
lawyers that I retained.

This may be the key. Bob may have been unwilling to hire a mean-enough
lawyer: 49000/3= $16,333. It sounds like a lot of money, but was repaid
in the first year. But, this should not have been necessary.

By the way, this math does not quite work like this.

1. The fee is 1/3 of the first year's reduction, in this case,

1/3 * (49000-21000).

This is about 9k in my case, which is the amount on the check that I
mailed yesterday.

2. The fee is contingent upon reduction, you owe lawyers nothing
unless they reduce taxes.

So, in other words, there is not much risk in retaining a lawyer.

i

Robert Heinlein had an interesting idea, he proposed that the owner
would set the property value upon which he was assessed, however, that
value was also considered a listing price, and if somebody arrived with
that much cash, you either sold, or raised the value until they dropped
their bid. If you did that, you owed 3 years back taxes at the new value...

I can see the flaws, but also has some merit.

On 2012-05-07, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
On 5/6/2012 10:27 PM, Ignoramus11847 wrote:
On 2012-05-07, Joseph wrote:
In articleL56dna5BaZzPIjvSnZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
Of course, I had to pay 1/3 of the first year's reduction to the
lawyers that I retained.

This may be the key. Bob may have been unwilling to hire a mean-enough
lawyer: 49000/3= $16,333. It sounds like a lot of money, but was repaid
in the first year. But, this should not have been necessary.

By the way, this math does not quite work like this.

1. The fee is 1/3 of the first year's reduction, in this case,

1/3 * (49000-21000).

This is about 9k in my case, which is the amount on the check that I
mailed yesterday.

2. The fee is contingent upon reduction, you owe lawyers nothing
unless they reduce taxes.

So, in other words, there is not much risk in retaining a lawyer.

i

Robert Heinlein had an interesting idea, he proposed that the owner
would set the property value upon which he was assessed, however, that
value was also considered a listing price, and if somebody arrived with
that much cash, you either sold, or raised the value until they dropped
their bid. If you did that, you owed 3 years back taxes at the new value...

I can see the flaws, but also has some merit.


I believe that it is a few thousand year old idea, this is how
property taxes were assessed in Judea or some such.

It is not a bad idea, though, as you say, it has flaws. Such as, say,
oil being discovered under someone's field.

i

On Sun, 06 May 2012 11:56:54 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:

[snip]

Regarding end mills, I agree with you, more or less. It is cheaper to
buy new end mills, or buy them at auctions, for cash, or have Bob
sharpen my endmills.

Bob is the guy who does T&C grinding and who sold me my warehouse
building. He could not own this building due to real estate taxes. His
2011 tax was raised to $49,000 PER YEAR, and the only thing he could
do is sell the building for whatever he could get. He sold it to me,
and due to purchase price, my real estate tax was lowered to $21k per
year.

He was already behind on taxes and could do nothing.

I strongly feel that it is unfair, but at least I am on the better
side of this unfairness.

Sounds like there is an interesting story here. Why couldn't Bob get
the reduction without selling?

Joe Gwinn

Because the Assessors Office valued the commercial property too high
considering the prices at the peak of the real estate market. And the
only way to prove that the assessment is too high was for Joe to sell
the building - then they place the new valuation at the actual sale
price which dropped Iggy's property tax bill. For a while...

But don't worry, Iggy - You don't have Proposition 13, so the State
Assessor is free to crank the valuation back up almost at their whim
when they decide they're going broke again, and the only way out is to
sell it yourself. And when it happens, you might want to look for a
new shop in a lower tax state.

-- Bruce --

In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:

On 2012-05-07, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:

On 2012-05-06, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus11847 wrote:

[snip]

Regarding end mills, I agree with you, more or less. It is cheaper to
buy new end mills, or buy them at auctions, for cash, or have Bob
sharpen my endmills.

Bob is the guy who does T&C grinding and who sold me my warehouse
building. He could not own this building due to real estate taxes. His
2011 tax was raised to $49,000 PER YEAR, and the only thing he could
do is sell the building for whatever he could get. He sold it to me,
and due to purchase price, my real estate tax was lowered to $21k per
year.

He was already behind on taxes and could do nothing.

I strongly feel that it is unfair, but at least I am on the better
side of this unfairness.

Sounds like there is an interesting story here. Why couldn't Bob get
the reduction without selling?

I am not a RE expert. Here's what I understand. The county "thought"
that his building was worth $670k. He could not prove to the county
that it was not worth that much, without actually selling the
building.

Were there no other comparable sales nearby? That's the usual approach.

It is very possible that there were not any comparable sales. Plus, it
is easy for the county to dismiss them during hearings.


Since I bought it in an arms length transaction, I could easily prove
that the building is worth the purchase price ($280k), because this is
what I paid for it. The county accepted the price of the transaction
as estimated value, and my taxes were reduced proportionally.

At this point, the County is legally cornered by state law. So sad.


Of course, I had to pay 1/3 of the first year's reduction to the
lawyers that I retained.

This may be the key. Bob may have been unwilling to hire a mean-enough
lawyer: 49000/3= $16,333. It sounds like a lot of money, but was repaid
in the first year. But, this should not have been necessary.

As you noted elsewhere, it was 1/3 the difference, or $9K. And it was a
contingency fee at that.


As far as I know, and I do know, he did hire a lawyer every
reassessment, and was not successful. That info is publicly available,
that is how I know.

This is why I strongly feel that it is unfair.

Yes. And Bruce Bergman probably cracked the code.

This is a big reason that northern industrial states are busily
deindustrializing.

Joe Gwinn

On 2012-05-07, Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable) wrote:
On Sun, 06 May 2012 11:56:54 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
Sounds like there is an interesting story here. Why couldn't Bob get
the reduction without selling?

Because the Assessors Office valued the commercial property too high
considering the prices at the peak of the real estate market. And the
only way to prove that the assessment is too high was for Joe to sell
the building - then they place the new valuation at the actual sale
price which dropped Iggy's property tax bill. For a while...

But don't worry, Iggy - You don't have Proposition 13, so the State
Assessor is free to crank the valuation back up almost at their whim
when they decide they're going broke again, and the only way out is to
sell it yourself. And when it happens, you might want to look for a
new shop in a lower tax state.

Bruce, it will remain to be seen. I am hopeful that they will not
increase my taxes too much. I will try to not apply for any permits.

i

Ignoramus18788 wrote:


Lloyd, I am very interested, myself, as to

1) Whether one can do a good job sharpening dull end mills
2) How long does it take.
Not that hard, and can be done on a vertical mill, or a surface
grinder. There is a fixture with all the right angles built
into it for this purpose. You put the cutter in a 5C collet,
and take several passes under the grinding wheel, indexing the
cutter to hit each flute. If you have to take off a lot, then
you need to mess with the "gashing" on a 4-flute to retain
the center-cutting feature.

I have some ghastly pictures on my web site, but haven't done
this in close to 20 years. It probably only makes sense to
do it on 1" and up end mills.

Jon

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:


Ig, one thing I have found is that it's worth the money to go with
premium US-made endmills, even when you're talking about HSS.
I was spoiled by starting out with Pratt & Whitney Stellite
cutters. When those finally wore out, I got some plain HSS tools
and they were used up in minutes. I couldn't figure out what was
so different until years later I finally found out those P&W cutters
were Stellite! Now, I only buy solid carbide in the small sizes (up
to 1/4") and M42 and M57 Cobalt cutters in larger sizes. The Cobalt
cutters last at least 3 X longer than HSS and only cost a few cents
more most of the time.

Jon

Ignoramus11847 wrote:


As far as I know, and I do know, he did hire a lawyer every
reassessment, and was not successful. That info is publicly available,
that is how I know.

This is why I strongly feel that it is unfair.
Great, and now you are in the same boat as Bob! When the next
assessment comes around, they will start jacking up the value
of the building, and you won't be able to disprove their valuation.
Pretty soon, they will have it right back to $670K!
Have you already figured out who to sell the building to?

Jon

Jon Elson fired this volley in
:

The Cobalt
cutters last at least 3 X longer than HSS and only cost a few cents
more most of the time.


Of course, once you re-grind one, that advantage is mostly lost. The
gullets are still coated, but the primary and secondary reliefs are not.

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Jon Elson fired this volley in
:

The Cobalt
cutters last at least 3 X longer than HSS and only cost a few cents
more most of the time.


Of course, once you re-grind one, that advantage is mostly lost. The
gullets are still coated, but the primary and secondary reliefs are not.



Cobalt is not a coating; it's a premuim grade of tool steel that's been
formulated with a higher cobalt content, for the purpose of increasing
red-hardness and abrasion resistance.

"PrecisionmachinisT" fired this volley
in news:vJGdnaDui86CoTTSnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@scnresearch. com:


Cobalt is not a coating; it's a premuim grade of tool steel that's been
formulated with a higher cobalt content, for the purpose of increasing
red-hardness and abrasion resistance.

Correct; I saw "coated" when he wrote that. Cobalt alloy cutters and
drills are more than "just a few cents more".

Lloyd

"tnik" wrote in message
...
On 5/5/2012 12:19 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
I finally found a Darex E90 endmill sharpener in CHERRY condition, and
with
all the collets, stones, guide finger... even a stand, for $1400!

YES... no more dull bits!

LLoyd

Nice! I'd love to get one of those all in one cnc sharpeners for the shop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3PId...hannel&list=UL

On Tue, 8 May 2012 09:01:03 -0700, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"tnik" wrote in message
...
On 5/5/2012 12:19 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
I finally found a Darex E90 endmill sharpener in CHERRY condition, and
with
all the collets, stones, guide finger... even a stand, for $1400!

YES... no more dull bits!

LLoyd

Nice! I'd love to get one of those all in one cnc sharpeners for the shop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3PId...hannel&list=UL



Wait until you see _Modern Machine Shop_ in June. There's a cutter
grinder in there that dreams are made of. $800,000, but man, oh man.
It will grind logarithmic reliefs on your gear hobs, from both sides
at once d8-)

--
Ed Huntress