Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and 8 foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" oriented strand board, along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger shop. There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in ceiling. Concrete floor with vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be either electricity or propane.

Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. I don't require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small propane heater next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for a long time.

All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot four-lamp fluorescent lights.

Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

-"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:26264607.161.1325385035826.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prez15...
-Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and 8
foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" -oriented strand board,
along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger
shop. There is 4" insulation in walls -and 6" in ceiling. Concrete floor
with vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be either electricity or
propane.

-Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside
temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter -months. I don't
require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small propane
heater next to me if I'm going to -stand in one place for a long time.

-All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot
four-lamp fluorescent lights.

-Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

I'm still looking for a gas or propane forge that doubles as a space heater.

jsw

On Dec 31, 9:30*pm, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. *Walls and 8 foot ceiling fully insulated. *All surfaces are 1/2" oriented strand board, along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger shop. *There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in ceiling. *Concrete floor with vinyl tile. *Power available for heating would be either electricity or propane.

Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. *Outside temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. *I don't require a warmer temperature for working. *Can always place a small propane heater next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for a long time.

All suggestions greatly appreciated. *BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot four-lamp fluorescent lights.

Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

Unless the propane heaters are vented to the outside, they will
generate a lot of water vapor. I would recommend that you try to find
some dehumidifiers. A couple of them will provide some heat as well
as reducing the humidity. In your area I might try getting a couple
of used window air conditioners and mounting them so they cool the
large shop and heat the small shop area. I would think that would be
more cost effective than electric resistive heating. In your area I
think the cost of electric resistive heating would be slightly cheaper
that propane.


Dan

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:26264607.161.1325385035826.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prez15...
Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and 8
foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" oriented strand board,
along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger
shop. There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in ceiling. Concrete floor
with vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be either electricity or
propane.

Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside
temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. I don't
require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small propane
heater next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for a long time.

All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot
four-lamp fluorescent lights.

Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

==========

Propane will produce a lot of water vapor, which will readily condense out
onto any colder cast iron surfaces and cause rusting because of dewpoint
issues and so I would seriously suggest using an electric infra red
spot-heater instead.

Other than that, you can figure that for all practical purposes, your
flourescents will be serving double duty as strip heaters--( not necessarily
a good thing in summer but...) just calculate the total wattage of your
lighting buss and go ahead and turn them on in advance--if you're insulated
well enough then it could even be that's all you really even need.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

-"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:26264607.161.1325385035826.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prez15...
-Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and
8 foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" -oriented strand
board, along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the
bigger shop. There is 4" insulation in walls -and 6" in ceiling.
Concrete floor with vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be
either electricity or propane.

-Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside
temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter -months. I don't
require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small
propane heater next to me if I'm going to -stand in one place for a long
time.

-All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot
four-lamp fluorescent lights.

-Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

I'm still looking for a gas or propane forge that doubles as a space
heater.



Don't they all ?

--

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:30:35 -0800 (PST), Ivan Vegvary
wrote:

Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and 8 foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" oriented strand board, along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger shop. There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in ceiling. Concrete floor with vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be either electricity or propane.

Darn, for just a few bucks more, you could have framed it with tuba
sixes (or double-stud walls) and needed even less heat to maintain it.
I hope all your wiring is surface mounted, keeping heat loss from the
inner building lower. Seal every corner, crack, and seam, top and
bottom. The better the insulation and the lower the in/ex-filtration,
the less HVAC system you need.


Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside
temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. I
don't require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a
small propane heater next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for
a long time.

I'd go with electric instead.

I don't have the book for calculations. Manual J, "Residential Load
Calculation," published by the Air Conditioning Contractors of America
(ACCA), is the recommended method for use in the United States
according to the gummint. They cost only $140!

http://www.mrhvac.com/free-hvac-stuf...ss-calculator/
With my guessing at generic data, it looks like a 11654.392 BTUH loss.
You could call a local HVAC guy and ask what HVAC system you need, or
just get a 4kW heater http://goo.gl/OoxQp from bLowes. Add a box fan
to help destratify. It's large enough to warrant a full HVAC system
if your pockets are deep enough.



All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot four-lamp fluorescent lights.

I was paging through a woodworking book last night and the author had
mentioned usint an additional switched 2-lamp 4' fluor over each
machine. He powered the machine and the lamp from the switch. That
couldn't be done with 240v single or 3-phase, but it's an idea.

(Pat Warner's _Getting the Very Best from Your Router_ book)

--
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air…
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Not only propane but unvented natural gas heaters will also produce a lot of
water vapor.

The water vapor doesn't just condense on colder metal, it'll produce excess
moisture where ever there are cooler spots with little or no air
circulation, such as lower walls behind cabinets or other obstructions to
air current circulation.

Some forced air flow will greatly improve currents in an entire space. I
prefer to use something like a small table-top air filtration unit with a
squirrel cage blower in it, pointing from one corner area toward the
far/diagonal corner area.

One can improvise filters from cut-to-size filter kits instead of buying
expensive made to fit brand name filters.. and I've added a grille that
stands off from the front/intake grille, and cover the grille with
painter/refinisher's tack cloth (sticky rosin treated cheesecloth) to catch
most of the airborne dust before it reaches the internal filters, so easier
maintenance and fewer filter replacements.

Forced circulation prevents a lot of problems associated with stratification
of the air in a closed space when it's unoccupied. No worries about wasted
energy, as the small blower motor's heat (maybe 20-50W) just adds to the
room temp.

I agree that a small portable, radiant electric heater is very effective for
a spot heater when needed. The designs with elements in straight quartz
tubes and a polished reflector to direct the pattern of the infrared heat,
are very practical, IMO.

--
WB
..........


"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

==========

Propane will produce a lot of water vapor, which will readily condense out
onto any colder cast iron surfaces and cause rusting because of dewpoint
issues and so I would seriously suggest using an electric infra red
spot-heater instead.

Other than that, you can figure that for all practical purposes, your
flourescents will be serving double duty as strip heaters--( not
necessarily a good thing in summer but...) just calculate the total
wattage of your lighting buss and go ahead and turn them on in advance--if
you're insulated well enough then it could even be that's all you really
even need.

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
Not only propane but unvented natural gas heaters will also produce a lot
of water vapor.

The water vapor doesn't just condense on colder metal, it'll produce
excess moisture where ever there are cooler spots with little or no air
circulation, such as lower walls behind cabinets or other obstructions to
air current circulation.


Yeah I probably shouldn't have written it the way I did and I should have
said something like "cast iron and metals, glass, any colder surface" but
pretty sure that by simply saying "cast iron" I got across the basic message
in terms that are understandable by most laymen.

Some forced air flow will greatly improve currents in an entire space. I
prefer to use something like a small table-top air filtration unit with a
squirrel cage blower in it, pointing from one corner area toward the
far/diagonal corner area.


But but...

Moisture in.....--moisture out and basically you're still screwed...

One can improvise filters from cut-to-size filter kits instead of buying
expensive made to fit brand name filters.. and I've added a grille that
stands off from the front/intake grille, and cover the grille with
painter/refinisher's tack cloth (sticky rosin treated cheesecloth) to
catch most of the airborne dust before it reaches the internal filters, so
easier maintenance and fewer filter replacements.

Forced circulation prevents a lot of problems associated with
stratification of the air in a closed space when it's unoccupied. No
worries about wasted energy, as the small blower motor's heat (maybe
20-50W) just adds to the room temp.

I agree that a small portable, radiant electric heater is very effective
for a spot heater when needed. The designs with elements in straight
quartz tubes and a polished reflector to direct the pattern of the
infrared heat, are very practical, IMO.


Fine if you're going to maintain something resembling some sort of constant
temperaturem say ten degrees or so.....

The real problem is that upon increasing overall mean ambient temp by any
significant amount , the metal surfaces will absorb heat more slowly and so
basically that is where most of the moisture will tend to precipitate.

--
WB
.........


"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

==========

Propane will produce a lot of water vapor, which will readily condense
out onto any colder cast iron surfaces and cause rusting because of
dewpoint issues and so I would seriously suggest using an electric infra
red spot-heater instead.

Other than that, you can figure that for all practical purposes, your
flourescents will be serving double duty as strip heaters--( not
necessarily a good thing in summer but...) just calculate the total
wattage of your lighting buss and go ahead and turn them on in
advance--if you're insulated well enough then it could even be that's all
you really even need.

Yep, definitely caulk all seams, unfinished joints or penetrations of the
interior surfaces. Caulking is the most cost effective energy reducing
product that any DIY type can use. The return on the investment can be huge
when applied every where it's needed.
If your eardrums pop when you open/close doors, ya done real good.
That doesn't mean you'll suffocate if you spend too much time in that space,
as long as a group isn't cooped up in there to evade the cullers/zombies.

It will be advantageous to start caulking during the framing stages and
follow-up with the semi-finished interior and/or added as the finishing is
being completed.

Losing (paid for) heated air and having it replaced with cold air is where
massive amounts of heating (and visey-versey cooling) energy is often
wasted.

--
WB
..........


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

Darn, for just a few bucks more, you could have framed it with tuba
sixes (or double-stud walls) and needed even less heat to maintain it.
I hope all your wiring is surface mounted, keeping heat loss from the
inner building lower. Seal every corner, crack, and seam, top and
bottom. The better the insulation and the lower the in/ex-filtration,
the less HVAC system you need.


Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside
temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. I
don't require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a
small propane heater next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for
a long time.

I'd go with electric instead.

I don't have the book for calculations. Manual J, "Residential Load
Calculation," published by the Air Conditioning Contractors of America
(ACCA), is the recommended method for use in the United States
according to the gummint. They cost only $140!

http://www.mrhvac.com/free-hvac-stuf...ss-calculator/
With my guessing at generic data, it looks like a 11654.392 BTUH loss.
You could call a local HVAC guy and ask what HVAC system you need, or
just get a 4kW heater http://goo.gl/OoxQp from bLowes. Add a box fan
to help destratify. It's large enough to warrant a full HVAC system
if your pockets are deep enough.



All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot
four-lamp fluorescent lights.

I was paging through a woodworking book last night and the author had
mentioned usint an additional switched 2-lamp 4' fluor over each
machine. He powered the machine and the lamp from the switch. That
couldn't be done with 240v single or 3-phase, but it's an idea.

(Pat Warner's _Getting the Very Best from Your Router_ book)

--
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yep, for temporary or occasional spot heating in terms of sitting at a desk
to do some paperwork, or heat for feet while spending extended periods
standing at a machine, a portable electric radiant heater is tits.

--
WB
..........


"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:CfmdnWBWWp2_mJ3SnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
Not only propane but unvented natural gas heaters will also produce a lot
of water vapor.

The water vapor doesn't just condense on colder metal, it'll produce
excess moisture where ever there are cooler spots with little or no air
circulation, such as lower walls behind cabinets or other obstructions to
air current circulation.


Yeah I probably shouldn't have written it the way I did and I should have
said something like "cast iron and metals, glass, any colder surface" but
pretty sure that by simply saying "cast iron" I got across the basic
message in terms that are understandable by most laymen.

Some forced air flow will greatly improve currents in an entire space. I
prefer to use something like a small table-top air filtration unit with a
squirrel cage blower in it, pointing from one corner area toward the
far/diagonal corner area.


But but...

Moisture in.....--moisture out and basically you're still screwed...

One can improvise filters from cut-to-size filter kits instead of buying
expensive made to fit brand name filters.. and I've added a grille that
stands off from the front/intake grille, and cover the grille with
painter/refinisher's tack cloth (sticky rosin treated cheesecloth) to
catch most of the airborne dust before it reaches the internal filters,
so easier maintenance and fewer filter replacements.

Forced circulation prevents a lot of problems associated with
stratification of the air in a closed space when it's unoccupied. No
worries about wasted energy, as the small blower motor's heat (maybe
20-50W) just adds to the room temp.

I agree that a small portable, radiant electric heater is very effective
for a spot heater when needed. The designs with elements in straight
quartz tubes and a polished reflector to direct the pattern of the
infrared heat, are very practical, IMO.


Fine if you're going to maintain something resembling some sort of
constant temperaturem say ten degrees or so.....

The real problem is that upon increasing overall mean ambient temp by any
significant amount , the metal surfaces will absorb heat more slowly and
so basically that is where most of the moisture will tend to precipitate.

--
WB
.........


"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

==========

Propane will produce a lot of water vapor, which will readily condense
out onto any colder cast iron surfaces and cause rusting because of
dewpoint issues and so I would seriously suggest using an electric infra
red spot-heater instead.

Other than that, you can figure that for all practical purposes, your
flourescents will be serving double duty as strip heaters--( not
necessarily a good thing in summer but...) just calculate the total
wattage of your lighting buss and go ahead and turn them on in
advance--if you're insulated well enough then it could even be that's
all you really even need.

" fired this volley in news:adde6a4c-
:

In your area I might try getting a couple
of used window air conditioners and mounting them so they cool the
large shop and heat the small shop area.

Don, if the intent is to use them as dehumidifiers, then there's no need to
heat or cool either space... heat and cool the same space (resulting in net
heating), and run the collected water outside. (I use a 14KBTU unit as a
high-volume dehumidifier AND heater for a large chemical drying room).


LLoyd

PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:26264607.161.1325385035826.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prez15...
Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and 8
foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" oriented strand board,
along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger
shop. There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in ceiling. Concrete floor
with vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be either electricity or
propane.

Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside
temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. I don't
require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small propane
heater next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for a long time.

All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot
four-lamp fluorescent lights.

Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

==========




Propane will produce a lot of water vapor, which will readily condense out
onto any colder cast iron surfaces and cause rusting because of dewpoint
issues and so I would seriously suggest using an electric infra red
spot-heater instead.

This only applies to *unvented* gaseous fueled heaters, there are plenty
of vented options available. Look for a salvage RV furnace, these run on
propane and are fully vented with external exhaust and combustion air.
Given the better insulation one unit should have no problem heating the
space. The larger mobile home wall furnaces would also work.

Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and 8 foot ceiling fully insulated.

All surfaces are 1/2" oriented strand board, along with a couple of
double insulated windows looking into the bigger shop.

There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in ceiling.

That's a LONG way from "fully insulated". Keeping the heat in is far
cheaper than adding more heat.

Concrete floor with vinyl tile.

If the floor is cold, this is also a BIG loss.
Ground under my house stays at 55F in winter. That would be a net gain
for a 50F space. If yours is colder, could be a BIG loss.

Power available for heating would

be either electricity or propane.

Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside temperatures average around 36-38°F through

the winter months. I don't require a warmer temperature for working.
Can always place a small propane heater

next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for a long time.

Unvented propane in a tight space will have water everywhere.
Everything will rust and mold will run wild.
Lower humidity is better than warmer temperature.

All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot four-lamp fluorescent lights.

Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

On Jan 1, 7:34*am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Don, if the intent is to use them as dehumidifiers, then there's no need to
heat or cool either space... heat and cool the same space (resulting in net
heating), and run the collected water outside. *(I use a 14KBTU unit as a
high-volume dehumidifier AND heater for a large chemical drying room).

LLoyd

You are right, but my thought was to use them as heat pumps.

Dan

-"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:26264607.161.1325385035826.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prez15...
-Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and 8
foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" -oriented strand board,
along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger
shop. There is 4" insulation in walls -and 6" in ceiling. Concrete floor
with vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be either electricity or
propane.

-Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside
temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter -months. I don't
require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small propane
heater next to me if I'm going to -stand in one place for a long time.

-All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot
four-lamp fluorescent lights.

-Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

My house with 1970 electric heat insulation does that now. It has a
polyetylene vapor barrier under the sheetrock, an extra layer of attic and
north-side wall insulation I added, and tightly sealed doors and windows
upstairs. I left the basement as is to leak in fresh air for the stove,
which isn't needed if the daytime high reaches ~ 40F. Right now four indoor
humidity sensors (grouped together for testing) read 48%, 51%, 54% and 57%.
The temperature readouts match better, the three Oregon Scientifics are
within 0.1 degree F and the old Radio Shack is 0.7F lower.

If you can justify it a small non-self-defrosting refrigerator would add
maybe 100W of heat and somewhat decrease the humidity if the door leaks a
little.

jsw

In article
26264607.161.1325385035826.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prez15,
Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and 8
foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" oriented strand board,
along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger shop.
There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in ceiling. Concrete floor with
vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be either electricity or
propane.

Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside
temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. I don't
require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small propane
heater next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for a long time.

All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot
four-lamp fluorescent lights.

Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

The (presumably uninsulated) concrete floor extending into the unheated
area (and likely straight to the outside at the edges) is going to move
a lot of heat (or $) over time.

Nearly all replies have assumed (probably on the basis of "place a small
propane heater next to me") unvented propane, which is a terrible idea.
Use a portable electric in that case. Sealed combustion (aka sealed
burner - pipe brings in outside air, pipe takes out exhaust gas, inside
air never meets the flame) propane heat is probably (check local price
for propane and electricity) more cost-effective than straight electric
resistance heat. Depending what your lows are, and how long you have
them for, a heat pump might be more cost-effective than propane, if you
get a good one (high COP) and it does not have to turn into a straight
electric resistance heater too often due to the outside temp being too
low for it work as a heat pump.

The mini-split systems offer heat pump and A/C on a small and affordable
scale...

You may also want to get an air-air heat exchanger so you can have some
ventilation without wasting too much heat.

The "British-units" (more US-units these days) analysis (rounded up)

13x36 ceiling, 6" R19 (optimistic - the insulation is, the framing isn't)
468 square feet, divide by 19 = 25 BTU/hr/degF

13x36 floor, R1 or so to ground which is a bit warmer than air. R hard
to figure sideways to cold shop and to exterior air, but not good.
468 square feet, divide by 1 = 468 BTU/hr/degF

13x8x2 wall, R11, (optimistic)
208 square feet divide by 11 = 19 BTU/hr/degF

36x8x2 wall R11 (optimistic)
576 square feet, divide by 11 = 53 BTU/hr/degF

Subtract square footage of windows/doors from walls, figure those at R3
if they are decent, R1 or 2 if they are not decent.

Ignoring windows/doors and the optimism of ignoring framing: 97
BTU/hr/degF for the walls and ceiling
468 BTU/hr/degF for the floor.

For 50F shop at 36F exterior, the top only consumes 1358 BTU/hr. Not
really true - those R3 (at best) windows and door will eat (comarative
to thier size) a lot of heat. Say you have 8 square feet of window and a
7x3 or 21 sq foot door - that adds 10 BTU/hr/degF or 140 BTU/hr - or 3
times that for poor windows and an interior-type door - to your load.
And floor, even assuming a 40F ground temp eats 4680 BTU/hr - or 2340 if
you call the ground 45F (and neither is accounting for the
hard-to-figure but significant effect of heating the surrounding shop
and air by conduction through the slab.)

If you fudged that (rounding up to account for some of the unknowns) you
might call it 7000 BTU/hr at the low end of a good fudge - to get 14
degrees above outside ambient with no air exchange. If you want to
maintain 50 degrees, rather than 14 degrees above exterior you'll need
more heat (the average should give you a cost idea for the whole winter,
the min temp is needed for "how big should the heater be to keep 50F on
the worst day" and you get the average back by it turning off part of
the time on warmer days with the thermostat.)

Add in air exchange - 3744 cubic feet divide by 13.9 to get pounds of
air, multiply by specific heat of air (0.24) to get 65 BTU/hr/DegF for 1
air change per hour, then cut that down by how good you think you sealed
it or multiply by how much ventilation to need to carry off smoke, and
cut down by the efficiency your air-to-air heat exchange claims if using
one. 910 BTU/hr for a 14F differential and 1ACH (normal construction.)
Really tight construction can get down to 0.1 ACH, but can also be too
tight to live with (not enough ventilation, unless forced ventilation
with or without an air-to-air heat exchanger is used.)

Call it (average) 8000 BTU/hour (still optimistic, but..) which is an
average of 2.35 KW/hr or 5640KW for 100 days (gets from now to early
April) - $846 at my price of 15 cents per KWh.

For a heat pump, divide by the COP - 3 is typical - $282 - but for any
time the outside temp is below the heat pump's operating range, you
can't do that, so it may be more (or a lot more, as that when it's cold
and you need more heat then.)

For propane, 92.5 KBTU/gallon * efficiency of furnace (less than 1 - 0.8
typical, 0.93 expensive) 260 gallons for 100 days with 80% efficient
furnace, what's your price per gallon?

These are almost certainly "inaccurate in practice" numbers, but they
are accurate enough for the purposes of comparison and rough
guesstimation of the cost of operation. The cheapest installed cost is
usually electric resistance heat, but it's generally the most expensive
to run.

Per this estimate, at 15cents/KWh and with an 80% efficient propane
burner, $3.25/gallon is the breakeven between resistance heat and
propane. If it's near that, the lack of fuel and open flame may favor
resistance heat anyway. Burning down the shop sucks.

From what I recall of mini-split system prices, one would probably pay
off in 2-3 years, and be money in the bank thereafter - unless it's too
cold for too long. Your price for electricity will, of course, affect
the time it would take for that to be true.

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
I was paging through a woodworking book last night and the author had
mentioned usint an additional switched 2-lamp 4' fluor over each
machine. He powered the machine and the lamp from the switch. That
couldn't be done with 240v single or 3-phase, but it's an idea.

Pick the right ballast and it's easily done with 240 - and presumably
one phase of the 3-phase, too. Don't know that I'd like that, though - I
would want the light when the machine was not yet running and after it
shut off, but that's me. Just put a light switch there by the machine
for that light...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

Thanks Ecnerwal, what a thoughtful reply!

I will use your data analysis (adjusted for window and door sizes) and make an appropriate decision.

BTW, right now I'm paying $2.48/gallon for propane.
House electrical rate is $0.11/KWH
Shop electrical rate is $0.32/KWH

Shop rate is high because of low usage. My last bill was $24.55 most of which was for Basic standby ($16) taxes etc. House bill was $84 for the month of October. I can't combine the two for a lower rate since I enjoy the 3 phase power delivered to the shop. I suppose I could run the shop power back up to the house and get a combined single bill saving me about $18 per month.

Thanks again for all of your effort to help me!!

Ivan Vegvary

Some propane heaters have a flue, which would carry the water vapor out of
the building.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

Propane will produce a lot of water vapor, which will readily condense out
onto any colder cast iron surfaces and cause rusting because of dewpoint
issues and so I would seriously suggest using an electric infra red
spot-heater instead.

Other than that, you can figure that for all practical purposes, your
flourescents will be serving double duty as strip heaters--( not necessarily
a good thing in summer but...) just calculate the total wattage of your
lighting buss and go ahead and turn them on in advance--if you're insulated
well enough then it could even be that's all you really even need.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
.. .


Some propane heaters have a flue, which would carry the water vapor out of
the building.


Except what the op had said was:

"Can always place a small propane heater next to me"

If you would read the original post before opening your pie hole then next
time you might not look like such a goddamned fool.

In article
13037431.708.1325445975606.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pruu23,
Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Thanks Ecnerwal, what a thoughtful reply!

I will use your data analysis (adjusted for window and door sizes) and make
an appropriate decision.

BTW, right now I'm paying $2.48/gallon for propane.
House electrical rate is $0.11/KWH
Shop electrical rate is $0.32/KWH

Shop rate is high because of low usage. My last bill was $24.55 most of
which was for Basic standby ($16) taxes etc. House bill was $84 for the
month of October. I can't combine the two for a lower rate since I enjoy the
3 phase power delivered to the shop. I suppose I could run the shop power
back up to the house and get a combined single bill saving me about $18 per
month.

I didn't do as much work as you might think - I have all of this worked
out for my shop, with all the handy "secret" numbers I got from Ag
Engineering's aquaculture course way back when. After that it's just a
few calculations and the "deep mystery" is revealed to be math. It's
handy for seeing things such as: foam floor mats or plywood over
styrofoam covering most of the floor would make a lot more difference in
your heat loss than a better door or an inch or two more insulation in
the walls.

Service charge is the price of being connected at all, and is best
(mostly) ignored when looking at cost of power for heat (which will
certainly up your useage.) Some months I have 0 KWH, which would make
the price of power infinite for those months...it's just overhead, and
the price of each KWh used is what it is, unless I'm going to disconnect
the power to avoid the overhead (not likely.)

If you would get down to 11c/KWH at the shop by burning more, (or it's
10c plus service charge, or whatever) then electric is cheaper for you.
Roughly equivalent to $2.39/gallon propane with an 80% efficient furnace.

Check with the power company before doing anything about feeding the
house from the shop - they may not let you. In any case it may cost more
to do than it's worth in savings - but look at that cost if they would
let you.

One thought (not my idea, swiped from here in the past) is to put (bond,
ideally) 50W-200W heaters in/on/under the all the cast iron tool bases.
If you leave those on all winter, you can be assured of no condensation
on the tools (put one in/on/under any tool cabinet as well) while using
less overall power, and just crank the heat up to 50 (or more) when you
are actually working.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:30:35 -0800 (PST), Ivan Vegvary
wrote:

Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. I don't require a warmer temperature for working.

I live in the officially wettest town in Canada. The temps are about
the same as yours. I have had no heating in the shop for 5 years and
so far no rusting of note.

Are you sure you will not make things worse? You will need to
maintain the temperature of the air and the surfaces steady 24/7
otherwise you are risking condensation with consequences.

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Must suck, to have people like me on the list.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
news:HuqdnSWIfYxHeZ3SnZ2dnUVZ_oudnZ2d@scnresearch. com...

If you would read the original post before opening your pie hole then next
time you might not look like such a goddamned fool.

Fluorescent lights as the only heat source?

If you would read the original post before opening your pie hole then next
time you might not look like such a goddamned fool.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...

Other than that, you can figure that for all practical purposes, your
flourescents will be serving double duty as strip heaters--( not necessarily
a good thing in summer but...) just calculate the total wattage of your
lighting buss and go ahead and turn them on in advance--if you're insulated
well enough then it could even be that's all you really even need.

"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley in
:

Fluorescent lights as the only heat source?

that's not what he said, Stormy. He was responding to a post where
electric or propane heating was the primary source, and the lamps (albeit
low output) would be _adding_ to the heat gain.

LLoyd

wrote in message
news
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:30:35 -0800 (PST), Ivan Vegvary
wrote:

Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside
temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. I don't
require a warmer temperature for working.

I live in the officially wettest town in Canada. The temps are about
the same as yours. I have had no heating in the shop for 5 years and
so far no rusting of note.

Are you sure you will not make things worse? You will need to
maintain the temperature of the air and the surfaces steady 24/7
otherwise you are risking condensation with consequences.

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

That's true if the humidity is high, but if you monitor and control it
temperature swings are less of a problem. Condensation won't form unless the
iron is at or below the dew point. My shop goes as high as 80% in summer yet
bare mild steel doesn't rust. 12L14 needs a spray of rust inhibitor.

My Christmas wish:
http://www.oregonscientificstore.com...p?itmky=935359

jsw

Oh, yah, back pedaling. Go for it, keep trying.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley in
:

Fluorescent lights as the only heat source?

that's not what he said, Stormy. He was responding to a post where
electric or propane heating was the primary source, and the lamps (albeit
low output) would be _adding_ to the heat gain.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley in
:

Fluorescent lights as the only heat source?

that's not what he said, Stormy. He was responding to a post where
electric or propane heating was the primary source, and the lamps (albeit
low output) would be _adding_ to the heat gain.

LLoyd

Trouble is, they don't radiate infrared and the heated air from the ballast
stays near the ceiling.

jsw

"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley in
:

Oh, yah, back pedaling. Go for it, keep trying.

Not me, Stormy... it wasn't my post... I was just doing what they call
"reading"... not that it means much these days.

LLoyd

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
:

Trouble is, they don't radiate infrared and the heated air from the
ballast stays near the ceiling.

Not _quite_ true.

It's true that most of the heat stays near the ceiling, because most of
it is conducted away from the housing by convection. However... (It's
SCIENCE!) ALL objects warmer than their surrounds also radiate in the
infrared. (Hint... infrared IS "heat". Radiation is one of the three
ways heat moves)

G
LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
:

Trouble is, they don't radiate infrared and the heated air from the
ballast stays near the ceiling.

Not _quite_ true.

It's true that most of the heat stays near the ceiling, because most of
it is conducted away from the housing by convection. However... (It's
SCIENCE!) ALL objects warmer than their surrounds also radiate in the
infrared. (Hint... infrared IS "heat". Radiation is one of the three
ways heat moves)

G
LLoyd

When I told my Ph.D. boss about my 4-layer insulated windows he calculated
the radiant heat flux through them in his head. It was essentially
irrelevant above freezing, considering the 10-micron infrared behavior of
older iron-bearing window glass. However I made curtain liners from
aluminized cloth just for good measure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan%...3Boltzmann_law
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...mo/grnhse.html

I had an undergrad summer research grant that involved quite a lot of
infrared spectroscopy using NaCl and KBr optics and sample holders. The
wavelengths I've worked with in long-wave infrared optics and microwave
electronics nearly meet.

jsw

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
:

Trouble is, they don't radiate infrared and the heated air from the
ballast stays near the ceiling.
Not _quite_ true.

It's true that most of the heat stays near the ceiling, because most of
it is conducted away from the housing by convection. However... (It's
SCIENCE!) ALL objects warmer than their surrounds also radiate in the
infrared. (Hint... infrared IS "heat". Radiation is one of the three
ways heat moves)

G
LLoyd

When I told my Ph.D. boss about my 4-layer insulated windows he calculated
the radiant heat flux through them in his head. It was essentially
irrelevant above freezing, considering the 10-micron infrared behavior of
older iron-bearing window glass. However I made curtain liners from
aluminized cloth just for good measure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan%...3Boltzmann_law
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...mo/grnhse.html

I had an undergrad summer research grant that involved quite a lot of
infrared spectroscopy using NaCl and KBr optics and sample holders. The
wavelengths I've worked with in long-wave infrared optics and microwave
electronics nearly meet.

jsw



If you want to actually see the heat losses and find any bad spots get
in contact with a local fire department and have them bring out their
TIC and actually look it over. That will show you a LOT of info quick.

--
Steve W.

In 1978, I bought a used 25,000 btu wall mounted, through the wall vent and
air intake propane furnace. I paid about $30 at the time for brand new
exhaust intake piping. I heated my 20 X 20 foot and 20 X 24 foot shops with
it until 1992 when we built a new house and it was still running fine in
west central Wisconsin. I had pretty well insulated walls; 8" of
fiberglass, one inch of foam in walls and 10" of fiberglass and one inch of
foam in ceilings. I put one inch of foam 2 feet deep around the concrete
floors all the way around. No trouble at all getting the place up to 70
degrees plus at -30F. I replaced in with a new 35,000 btu unit in 1992,
The new one is a Williams wall mounted furnace with a vertical chimney/fresh
air intake, which also has an adjustable rear vent to heat a new breezeway.
Again, it works just fine- no concerns at all with condensation, even though
I keep the temp down to about 60 degrees.
I built a woodshop in another part of that building about 6 years ago
and added another furnace of the same type. I'd do it again.
I know that one poster said he didn't have condensation problems with an
unvented propane heater, but I certainly had it before I did the above, and
I worked part time in a place that used that form of heat and it sure did
have condensation.

Pete Stanaitis
---------------

EEEEKKK!!! Don't confuse him with facts!!!!!

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley in
:

Fluorescent lights as the only heat source?

that's not what he said, Stormy. He was responding to a post where
electric or propane heating was the primary source, and the lamps (albeit
low output) would be _adding_ to the heat gain.

LLoyd

Trouble is, they don't radiate infrared and the heated air from the ballast
stays near the ceiling.

jsw

"Stormin Mormon" fired this volley in
:

EEEEKKK!!! Don't confuse him with facts!!!!!

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org

Do LDS folks _actually_ get drunk, Stormy?

'Seems you are...

LLoyd

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:36:27 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
:

Trouble is, they don't radiate infrared and the heated air from the
ballast stays near the ceiling.

Not _quite_ true.

It's true that most of the heat stays near the ceiling, because most of
it is conducted away from the housing by convection. However... (It's
SCIENCE!) ALL objects warmer than their surrounds also radiate in the
infrared. (Hint... infrared IS "heat". Radiation is one of the three
ways heat moves)

G

I had IR heat in one of the outside shops I worked and and absolutely
abhored it. The cars and my tools would get too hot to touch while a
minimum of half my body stayed cold. Only line-of-sight body parts
warmed up. Ugh! Bad tech, IMHO. Closed shops and forced air are the
only way to go.


I'm spending my time celebrating the first day of the year washing my
affected areas with Tecnu and then applying Calagel to reduce the itch
of the poison oak I got into a few days ago. What I thought was a
liana of wisteria turned out to be poison oak. No leaves, just a
finger-thick vine going up through the lilac into the tree I was
cutting back. The tree was courtesy of my neighbor, who refused to
have her worker cut her own tree.

--
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air…
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

What I thought was a
liana of wisteria turned out to be poison oak.

Ick! I used to get poison oak/ivy REAL bad until I went through a
desensitization program (oral tablets). If I just brushed up against
it, I'd have it all over my body by two days hence.

Now, I get a little irritation at the actual site of contact, and once in
a while two or three tiny blisters, but never "area coverage" -- it does
not spread like it used to do.

I can live - even comfortably - with that.

LLoyd

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

I'm spending my time celebrating the first day of the year washing my
affected areas with Tecnu and then applying Calagel to reduce the itch
of the poison oak I got into a few days ago. What I thought was a
liana of wisteria turned out to be poison oak. No leaves, just a
finger-thick vine going up through the lilac into the tree I was
cutting back. The tree was courtesy of my neighbor, who refused to
have her worker cut her own tree.


Bummer.

The entire west slope of my property as well as most of the south side is
pretty much covered in it, but so far it's never really bothered me.

Fairly common along the lower Columbia.

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote in message
news:26264607.161.1325385035826.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prez15...
Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls and 8
foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" oriented strand board,
along with a couple of double insulated windows looking into the bigger
shop. There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in ceiling. Concrete floor
with vinyl tile. Power available for heating would be either electricity or
propane.

Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting. Outside
temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter months. I don't
require a warmer temperature for working. Can always place a small propane
heater next to me if I'm going to stand in one place for a long time.

All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8 four-foot
four-lamp fluorescent lights.

Thanks, Ivan Vegvary

One more vote for the mini split AC/heat pump. A second choice would be a
vented Modine Hat Dawg propane heater. 30,000 BTU will be too much, but it
is the smallest they make. The nice part of a permanant AC or heater is that
you can set the temperature and forget it. They are safe to run and you
don't need to worry about them burning the place down like a portable heater
might.

On the real cheap a couple of portable electric heaters would do ok, but
with your electric rates and the safely concerns they would not be a great
choice.
Greg O

On 2012-01-01, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Finishing up framing a 13'x36' shop area within my large shop. Walls
and 8 foot ceiling fully insulated. All surfaces are 1/2" oriented
strand board, along with a couple of double insulated windows looking
into the bigger shop. There is 4" insulation in walls and 6" in
ceiling. Concrete floor with vinyl tile. Power available for heating
would be either electricity or propane.

O.K.

Would like to maintain 50°F to keep machinery from rusting.
Outside temperatures average around 36-38°F through the winter
months. I don't require a warmer temperature for working. Can always
place a small propane heater next to me if I'm going to stand in one
place for a long time.

I strongly advise against a propane (or any other fossil fuel)
heater. These are mostly combinations of hydrogen and carbon. The
carbon just gives CO2 -- or if the combustion is not very complete, CO
-- carbon monoxide, which you don't want to be breathing. (Add a CO
detector if you *must* use the fuel approach.)

However -- the other combustion product is water vapor, which
it is pouring into a room full of cold metal tools. The result will be
condensation and rust.

Usually, the main trick is keeping the tools a bit warmer than
the air -- something like an incandescent lamp in the castings to
generate heat, which will reduce condensation. (At least, for as long
as you can still buy incandescent lamps. There are times when you
*want* the inefficiency and the resulting heat. :-)

Electric heat will not generate moisture -- and you might
discover that you would like a little more humidity -- but your machine
tools would not. :-)

All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8
four-foot four-lamp fluorescent lights.

Hmm ... there are similar fixtures of radiant heat sources --
rig it up so you can turn on only the one directly above where you are
working to keep the energy cost down a bit.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I agree, that fossil fuels do contain hydrogen and carbon. Hey, we could
coin a phrase. How about we call them hydrocarbons, for short? You know,
that's kind of catchy.

My residence has a 90% plus efficiency furnace, that uses natural gas for
fuel. In the winter, it's so dry I use about a gallon (often more) per day
of water in my humidifier. To keep it comfortable for me. Otherwise, it
would be painfully dry. You say that fuel furnaces over humidify? Mine dumps
the humidity out the flue, and the humidity is of no use for me.

The OP may be able to get a vented heater of some sort, that will vent the
flue gasses out, keep the place warm, and keep the place dry.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...

I strongly advise against a propane (or any other fossil fuel)
heater. These are mostly combinations of hydrogen and carbon. The
carbon just gives CO2 -- or if the combustion is not very complete, CO
-- carbon monoxide, which you don't want to be breathing. (Add a CO
detector if you *must* use the fuel approach.)

However -- the other combustion product is water vapor, which
it is pouring into a room full of cold metal tools. The result will be
condensation and rust.

Usually, the main trick is keeping the tools a bit warmer than
the air -- something like an incandescent lamp in the castings to
generate heat, which will reduce condensation. (At least, for as long
as you can still buy incandescent lamps. There are times when you
*want* the inefficiency and the resulting heat. :-)

Electric heat will not generate moisture -- and you might
discover that you would like a little more humidity -- but your machine
tools would not. :-)

All suggestions greatly appreciated. BTW, ceiling will have 8
four-foot four-lamp fluorescent lights.

Hmm ... there are similar fixtures of radiant heat sources --
rig it up so you can turn on only the one directly above where you are
working to keep the energy cost down a bit.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |
http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---