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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Is anyone really this stupid?
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? The answer is yes, I really believe that some of these people are that stupid. And then when all the wealth leaves, just as now, the definition of rich is lowered, and the middle class is the next target. Yet, still, life is not fair. Barry is desperate and ANGRY. Look at his face. The man is going to blow a blood vessel in his forehead and spatter the room with his own blood. He is self-destructing before our eyes, and gets more irrational every day. I wonder if that coke use (self-admitted) is coming back in flashbacks. Or just coming back. Fair is fair. Bush was accused of drinking while being president. Steve |
#2
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On 2011-09-19, Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? I do not think that it is quite as simple. If a company is making certain gizmos, it will relocate its gizmo making factory to wherever it is cheaper to make and deliver the goods to where they are sold. So, say, bricks (expensive to ship, not so labor intensive) are made in the US, and calipers (cheap to ship, labor intensive) are made in China. The driving force of this is price competition and not taxes. Also, I believe that a US person who "relocates", still owes the United States tax payments for a number of years. In addition, I would guess that most people whose earned income is over a million, would not be able to realize that income outside of the US. Personally, I fully realize that I could not achieve anything close to my income anywhere except the Unites States, and feel that it is quite proper to ask me to make a suitable contribution to the budget. I mean, I was never asked, here, for any kind of a bribe. I could not possibly even imagine that if I tried to deal with surplus property in Russia. Thus, I do not feel bad about paying taxes, and wish that tax levels honestly reflected the level of government spending. i |
#3
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Sep 19, 3:42*pm, Ignoramus15208 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15208.invalid wrote: On 2011-09-19, Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. *Tax the corporations. *Take their wealth. *Give it to the little people. *Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? I do not think that it is quite as simple. If a company is making certain gizmos, it will relocate its gizmo making factory to wherever it is cheaper to make and deliver the goods to where they are sold. So, say, bricks (expensive to ship, not so labor intensive) are made in the US, and calipers (cheap to ship, labor intensive) are made in China. The driving force of this is price competition and not taxes. Also, I believe that a US person who "relocates", still owes the United States tax payments for a number of years. In addition, I would guess that most people whose earned income is over a million, would not be able to realize that income outside of the US. Personally, I fully realize that I could not achieve anything close to my income anywhere except the Unites States, and feel that it is quite proper to ask me to make a suitable contribution to the budget. I mean, I was never asked, here, for any kind of a bribe. I could not possibly even imagine that if I tried to deal with surplus property in Russia. Thus, I do not feel bad about paying taxes, and wish that tax levels honestly reflected the level of government spending. i Iggy, You set up a great "Yakov Smirnoff" type joke.... I just don't know how to complete it.. In America, The government spending should match the tax levels. |
#4
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:42:58 -0500, Ignoramus15208
wrote: On 2011-09-19, Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? I do not think that it is quite as simple. If a company is making certain gizmos, it will relocate its gizmo making factory to wherever it is cheaper to make and deliver the goods to where they are sold. So, say, bricks (expensive to ship, not so labor intensive) are made in the US, and calipers (cheap to ship, labor intensive) are made in China. The driving force of this is price competition and not taxes. Also, I believe that a US person who "relocates", still owes the United States tax payments for a number of years. In addition, I would guess that most people whose earned income is over a million, would not be able to realize that income outside of the US. Why? Personally, I fully realize that I could not achieve anything close to my income anywhere except the Unites States, and feel that it is quite proper to ask me to make a suitable contribution to the budget. You make nothing. You see surplus items that ARE in the US. You are NOT in manufacturing. I mean, I was never asked, here, for any kind of a bribe. I could not possibly even imagine that if I tried to deal with surplus property in Russia. In Russia, you simply pay a bribe and get emense quantities of goodies from storage areas for very little money. Did I ever discuss the guy who bought a a Mig21 from a Ruski general? When it showed up on the boat in the harbor..it was discovered to have a full load of munitions to go along with it..in fact..it had 2 seatrains with the jet itself. One full of ammo/rockets/bombs and one with the start cart and a full load of spares. Cost the American $50k cash. Thus, I do not feel bad about paying taxes, and wish that tax levels honestly reflected the level of government spending. i "In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our country." - David Lloyyd (2008) |
#5
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Is anyone really this stupid?
Gunner Asch on Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:34:15 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: The driving force of this is price competition and not taxes. Also, I believe that a US person who "relocates", still owes the United States tax payments for a number of years. In addition, I would guess that most people whose earned income is over a million, would not be able to realize that income outside of the US. Why? In the 1920s, the progressives jacked the top rate on millionares (Back when a million dollars was a lot of Real Money, too) to 73%. The next year, there were 40% (iirc) fewer "millionaires". Not that they had suddenly gone broke, but that they had shifted their investments to tax free municipal bonds. That's the problem that progressives do not seem to grasp: they believe that raising the taxes on cigarettes will result in people modifying their behavior and quit smoking (reducing their tax exposure), yet they seem to also feel that if they raise taxes on income, they will not be causing people to modify their behavior to reduce their tax exposure. Sort of like the people who want you to believe that advertising on TV will change you behavior, but that the programs themselves have no impact at all. Yeah, right. tschus pyotr -- pyotr If poverty causes crime, as a means of crime prevention maybe we should be doing more to make people rich? |
#6
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On 9/19/2011 4:42 PM, Ignoramus15208 wrote:
Thus, I do not feel bad about paying taxes, and wish that tax levels honestly reflected the level of government spending. I, on the other hand, wish that spending honestly reflected the level of taxation. |
#7
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Sep 19, 5:34*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
In Russia, you simply pay a bribe and get emense quantities of goodies from storage areas for very little money. Did I ever discuss the guy who bought a *a Mig21 from a Ruski general? When it showed up on the boat in the harbor..it was discovered to have a full load of munitions to go along with it..in fact..it had 2 seatrains with the jet itself. One full of ammo/rockets/bombs and one with the start cart and a full load of spares. Cost the American $50k cash. I bet that had the Customs boy fired up! Did he need an FFL in that transaction? |
#8
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Monday, September 19, 2011 1:42:58 PM UTC-7, Ignoramus15208 wrote:
On 2011-09-19, Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? I do not think that it is quite as simple. If a company is making certain gizmos, it will relocate its gizmo making factory to wherever it is cheaper to make Well, but... people and companies alike benefit from government-supplied services, creating an environment where complications (lack of safe transport, unenforcability of contracts, unsafe airi/water/food, corrupt police) make for added, unpredictable costs. It's worth paying a high tax rate if the benefits are commensurate. Like EVERY economic decision, it is NOT about cost. It's always about two complete alternative paths, each with both costs and benefits. Never just cost. Never just cost of taxes. |
#9
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 10:28:14 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote: snip Well, but... people and companies alike benefit from government-supplied services, creating an environment where complications (lack of safe transport, unenforcability of contracts, unsafe airi/water/food, corrupt police) make for added, unpredictable costs. It's worth paying a high tax rate if the benefits are commensurate. snip ================ A point well taken, but the following article indicates that much [how much no one knows] of the US governmental revenue stream is p***ed off, with no benefit to anyone except the gouging meeting coordinator and [likely] the people they paid off. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...nferences.html $16 Muffins Found at U.S. Meetings By Seth Stern - Sep 20, 2011 2:58 PM CT U. S. Justice Department agencies spent too much for food at conferences, in one case serving $16 muffins and in another dishing out beef Wellington appetizers that cost $7.32 per serving, an audit found. “Some conferences featured costly meals, refreshments, and themed breaks that we believe were indicative of wasteful or extravagant spending,” the Justice Department’s inspector general wrote in a report released today. snip A March 2009 conference of the Office on Violence Against Women served Cracker Jacks, popcorn and candy bars at a single break, costing $32 per person, according to the report. snip $5 Swedish Meatball {very spicy! -- UG comment} The report is a follow-up to one from 2007 that found the Justice Department had few controls to limit the costs of conference planning, food and beverages. That audit cited a reception that included Swedish meatballs costing $5 apiece. snip This does not appear to motivate most people to pay more in taxes, and indeed is a powerful selling point for the Greek tax paying system... -- Unka' George "Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants, but debt is the money of slaves" -Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium" |
#10
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 06:47:16 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote: On Sep 19, 5:34*pm, Gunner Asch wrote: In Russia, you simply pay a bribe and get emense quantities of goodies from storage areas for very little money. Did I ever discuss the guy who bought a *a Mig21 from a Ruski general? When it showed up on the boat in the harbor..it was discovered to have a full load of munitions to go along with it..in fact..it had 2 seatrains with the jet itself. One full of ammo/rockets/bombs and one with the start cart and a full load of spares. Cost the American $50k cash. I bet that had the Customs boy fired up! Did he need an FFL in that transaction? He didnt know they were coming fully armed. Americans wouldnt normally consider it. It was a rather interesting 18 months for the guy....chuckle. I understand he finally got the bird..sans all the fun toys. Gunner "In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our country." - David Lloyyd (2008) |
#11
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:57:22 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote: A March 2009 conference of the Office on Violence Against Women served Cracker Jacks, popcorn and candy bars at a single break, costing $32 per person, according to the report. Thats some damned expensive munchies.... "In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our country." - David Lloyyd (2008) |
#12
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 06:47:16 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote: On Sep 19, 5:34*pm, Gunner Asch wrote: In Russia, you simply pay a bribe and get emense quantities of goodies from storage areas for very little money. Did I ever discuss the guy who bought a *a Mig21 from a Ruski general? When it showed up on the boat in the harbor..it was discovered to have a full load of munitions to go along with it..in fact..it had 2 seatrains with the jet itself. One full of ammo/rockets/bombs and one with the start cart and a full load of spares. Cost the American $50k cash. I bet that had the Customs boy fired up! Did he need an FFL in that transaction? Har! I'll bet the ATF wouldn't settle for a $200 tax stamp on that baby, either. Neighbor's dogs barking again? Strafe their back yard. -- A sound mind in a sound body is a short but full description of a happy state in this world. -- John Locke |
#13
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Is anyone really this stupid?
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#14
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. Try this exercise: look up the countries with the lowest tax rates. Post it here. Let's see what kind of utopias we're talking about. http://www.businesspundit.com/12-cou...est-tax-rates/ Stated to be based on average income workers: Switzerland - 20% USA ~ 27% Australia 31% Canada 31.2% Japan 33% U.K. 32% compared with Belgium 54% Finland 46.6% Germany 45% Denmark 44.4% Italy 43% France 40% Cheers, John B. |
#16
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B.
wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? Hummm? Gunner I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so on. Cheers, John B. And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering..... Gunner "In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our country." - David Lloyyd (2008) |
#17
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Is anyone really this stupid?
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B. wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? Hummm? Gunner I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so on. Cheers, John B. And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering..... Gunner First, nowhere near "50% of US manufacturing" has moved offshore. The dollar volume of US domestic manufacturing continues to climb. http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN It's the jobs that have gone away, not the manufacturing itself. http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MANEMP The first reason is higher current and future profitability of offshore operations. It has very little to do with taxes, as you'll see if you read the business economics reports instead of the general press. It's mostly about growth in customer bases, which is the primary reason for manufacturing in China. After that, it's free or almost free land and/or manufacturing plants; wages hovering around $1/hour; state assumption of health care insurance costs; and state-supported loans. -- Ed Huntress |
#18
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On 2011-09-21, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B. wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? Hummm? Gunner I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so on. And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering..... Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits. i |
#19
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Is anyone really this stupid?
Gunner Asch on Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? One reason may be the economic uncertainty in the States. That is one reason the Great Depression is hanging on so long - the "rule change of the week" from the apparachniks in DC makes planning "long term" a crap shoot. But that is the recent four years. Before then - well, regulations made it less expensive to move production overseas. E.G. Remember the "Brat"? Because it was basically a truck, it was subject to a lesser customs "fee". Same with the SUV - it replaced the station wagons because station wagons were "cars" but SUVs are "trucks". Big difference in how they apply to CAFE standards, excise taxes, and the rest. -- pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough! |
#20
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Is anyone really this stupid?
Gunner Asch on Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...antlinger.html In a word "Containerization". Made it cheap to ship stuff from plant to distribution center. Cheap enough that the plant could be moved to another country. tschus pyotr -- pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough! |
#21
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:11:41 -0500, Ignoramus17765
wrote: On 2011-09-21, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B. wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? Hummm? Gunner I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so on. And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering..... Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits. Income taxes..you seem to be leaving out property taxes, fees etc etc etc You do remember that there are other things besides income taxes..right? And of course if Joe isnt working much..he doesnt have much money to spend..right? And if he cant afford to buy something..the people that make that something, lose Joe as a buyer...so they dont make the money from Joe....etc etc etc i "In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our country." - David Lloyyd (2008) |
#22
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 06:59:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B. wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? Hummm? Gunner I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so on. Cheers, John B. And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering..... Gunner Sure. Cost of permanent plant - real estate - is normally cheaper then in the U.S. and labour costs are significantly lower. Comparing the much touted $60.00 an hour (in costs) for the U.S. car industry to something like $16.00 a day (for an average Thai Government worker) and adding local government mandated retirement and medical costs U.S. labour costs may be 30 times higher then foreign wages. Internal transportation costs are significantly lower and normally raw materials are cheaper. Insurance costs are lower, being based on lower priced plant and personal costs. In most foreign countries the government mandates salary levels and labour unions are either controlled or nonexistent. Costly strikes are extremely rare or nonexistent. Government interference in operations are rare - I remember the story told in this group about the safety inspector who made the guy repaint the yellow "walk lines" because they were "the wrong shade of yellow". Cheers, John B. |
#23
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:01:07 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:11:41 -0500, Ignoramus17765 wrote: On 2011-09-21, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B. wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? Hummm? Gunner I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so on. And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering..... Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits. Income taxes..you seem to be leaving out property taxes, fees etc etc etc You do remember that there are other things besides income taxes..right? And of course if Joe isnt working much..he doesnt have much money to spend..right? And if he cant afford to buy something..the people that make that something, lose Joe as a buyer...so they dont make the money from Joe....etc etc etc Firstly, working people in most Asian countries can afford to buy things. The thing that you are overlooking is that things cost less here. Have a look at the "Big Mac Index". A big mac costs $4.07 in the U.S. (in US Dollars) Malaysia - $2.30 Thailand - $2.29 Hong Kong - $1.93 China - $2.30 And a visit to McDonalds would be a rare event to the average working man in these countries. The average local meal is more like US$ 1.50. Cheers, John B. |
#24
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#25
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 08:42:59 +0700, john B.
wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:01:07 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:11:41 -0500, Ignoramus17765 wrote: On 2011-09-21, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B. wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? Hummm? Gunner I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so on. And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering..... Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits. Income taxes..you seem to be leaving out property taxes, fees etc etc etc You do remember that there are other things besides income taxes..right? And of course if Joe isnt working much..he doesnt have much money to spend..right? And if he cant afford to buy something..the people that make that something, lose Joe as a buyer...so they dont make the money from Joe....etc etc etc Firstly, working people in most Asian countries can afford to buy things. The thing that you are overlooking is that things cost less here. Have a look at the "Big Mac Index". A big mac costs $4.07 in the U.S. (in US Dollars) Malaysia - $2.30 Thailand - $2.29 Hong Kong - $1.93 China - $2.30 And a visit to McDonalds would be a rare event to the average working man in these countries. The average local meal is more like US$ 1.50. Cheers, John B. Yes and? I know 3 couples who are currently living in their cars. And this has what to do with a Happy Meal? Gunner "In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our country." - David Lloyyd (2008) |
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 08:27:29 +0700, john B.
wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 06:59:34 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B. wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? Hummm? Gunner I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so on. Cheers, John B. And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering..... Gunner Sure. Cost of permanent plant - real estate - is normally cheaper then in the U.S. and labour costs are significantly lower. Comparing the much touted $60.00 an hour (in costs) for the U.S. car industry to something like $16.00 a day (for an average Thai Government worker) and adding local government mandated retirement and medical costs U.S. labour costs may be 30 times higher then foreign wages. Internal transportation costs are significantly lower and normally raw materials are cheaper. Insurance costs are lower, being based on lower priced plant and personal costs. In most foreign countries the government mandates salary levels and labour unions are either controlled or nonexistent. Costly strikes are extremely rare or nonexistent. Government interference in operations are rare - I remember the story told in this group about the safety inspector who made the guy repaint the yellow "walk lines" because they were "the wrong shade of yellow". Cheers, John B. Thank you. As I said..income taxes, other taxes and fees...all of which are paying for those clowns who check line color.....among just a few.... "In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our country." - David Lloyyd (2008) |
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Sep 21, 9:48*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote: Someone must pay for the infrastructure improvement and maintenance, e.g. roads, bridges, canals, ports, airports, sewers, water, etc. *Someone must pay for "education," especially for free, universal compulsory education, which is required to keep the whole thing running. *Someone must pay for the military force to defend the country. *Someone must pay for the emergency/public safety services we all take for granted such as police, fire, and EMT. *Someone must pay for the courts, land registeries and prisons. Someone must pay for clean food and effective drugs. Someone must pay for the social services and "safety nets." Unka' George A long time ago I lived in Madison County, Alabama. The taxes were fairly low, but those that worked for the county actually worked. And were paid realistic wages. They had adequate pensions, but not gold plated ones. At the time Madison County was the only county in the U.S. that had every road in the county paved. And the roads were in good shape. Not the pothole pocked roads that exist around here. So yes all those things have to be paid for, but the total wage packet for public workers should be about equal to the total wages in the private sector. What has happened in most places is that the state and county workers have unionized. And the union has been able to bargain for better pensions and better healthcare than exists in the private sector. This happens because those that approve the wage contracts have no incentive to keep costs contained. If they approve gold plated pensions, the public workers vote for them. So the politicians prosper by approving wage and benefit increases. This ends up requiring higher taxes. Which increases costs for businesses, and leads to jobs going overseas. We can afford all the government we need, but can not afford government that gets paid more than the private sector. Dan |
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Is anyone really this stupid?
Ignoramus wrote: Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits. Bull****. Every cent that a business has to pay out, is part of the overall cost. It doesn't matter if the income tax is the responsibility of their employees, since they have to collect & forward them to the proper agencies. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
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Is anyone really this stupid?
Gunner Asch on Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:01:07 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:11:41 -0500, Ignoramus17765 wrote: On 2011-09-21, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B. wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A. Falk) wrote: In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures? The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment? Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands? Hummm? Gunner I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so on. And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering..... Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits. Income taxes..you seem to be leaving out property taxes, fees etc etc etc You do remember that there are other things besides income taxes..right? And of course if Joe isnt working much..he doesnt have much money to spend..right? And if he cant afford to buy something..the people that make that something, lose Joe as a buyer...so they dont make the money from Joe....etc etc etc From Peter Schiff's prepared remarks to Congress. Schiff is the CEO of Euro Pacific Capital.: "In my own business, securities regulations have prohibited me from hiring brokers for more than three years. I was even fined fifteen thousand dollar expressly for hiring too many brokers in 2008. In the process I incurred more than $500,000 in legal bills to mitigate a more severe regulatory outcome as a result of hiring too many workers. I have also been prohibited from opening up additional offices. I had a major expansion plan that would have resulted in my creating hundreds of additional jobs. Regulations have forced me to put those jobs on hold." http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid... y_people.html == end quote == A company is fined for hiring too many workers. It cost the company half a million dollars in legal fees to avoid a worse outcome. And this is suppose to help the economy how? How any other companies have had similar problems, or have heard of similar problems, and have no desire to go to that dance. So they are "sitting this one out" - too bad for the people they would have hired, but ... . What you tax, you get less of; what you subsidize, you get ore of. -- pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough! |
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:10:36 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Sep 21, 9:48*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee- associates.us wrote: Someone must pay for the infrastructure improvement and maintenance, e.g. roads, bridges, canals, ports, airports, sewers, water, etc. *Someone must pay for "education," especially for free, universal compulsory education, which is required to keep the whole thing running. *Someone must pay for the military force to defend the country. *Someone must pay for the emergency/public safety services we all take for granted such as police, fire, and EMT. *Someone must pay for the courts, land registeries and prisons. Someone must pay for clean food and effective drugs. Someone must pay for the social services and "safety nets." Unka' George A long time ago I lived in Madison County, Alabama. The taxes were fairly low, but those that worked for the county actually worked. And were paid realistic wages. They had adequate pensions, but not gold plated ones. At the time Madison County was the only county in the U.S. that had every road in the county paved. And the roads were in good shape. Not the pothole pocked roads that exist around here. So yes all those things have to be paid for, but the total wage packet for public workers should be about equal to the total wages in the private sector. What has happened in most places is that the state and county workers have unionized. And the union has been able to bargain for better pensions and better healthcare than exists in the private sector. This happens because those that approve the wage contracts have no incentive to keep costs contained. If they approve gold plated pensions, the public workers vote for them. So the politicians prosper by approving wage and benefit increases. This ends up requiring higher taxes. Which increases costs for businesses, and leads to jobs going overseas. We can afford all the government we need, but can not afford government that gets paid more than the private sector. Dan ================== Indeed, this is one of the factors, and appears to be an extremely common "symptom" as organizations increase in size and complexity. General Motors Corporation is the poster child for this. Another factor, noted in a separate posting, is a tendency to lose any sense of the value of money, given the millions and billions the managers deal with every day. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...nferences.html $16 Muffins Found at U.S. Meetings By Seth Stern - Sep 20, 2011 2:58 PM CT Yet a third factor is the borderline fraud, angle playing, and corner cutting, which (apparently) crosses the line into actual fraud, as it is commonly understood, fairly frequently, e.g. TARP, most of the FRB stimulus schemes, and of course the latest item to float to the surface -- Solyndra. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...78J5RE20110920 snip Reuters) - Solyndra LLC's chief executive and chief financial officer will invoke their Fifth Amendment rights and decline to answer any questions put to them at a Congressional hearing on Friday, according to letters from their attorneys obtained by Reuters. snip There is nothing new in this with the current administration. The Reconstruction Finance Corporation, started under Herbert Hoover and continued under FDR, during the "great depression" had the same types of problems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconst...ce_Corporation http://library.cqpress.com/cqresearc...srre1951120500 You might try reading the rest of my previous post where I wrote: ---- from prior post ------ When individuals and organizations attempt to enjoy the benefits and services of a developed country but are unwilling to pay their share of the cost, it is called "freeloading" or tax evasion, and what they don't pay, but use *MUST BE PAID FOR BY EVERONE ELSE.* {I will add that fraud, waste and abuse are part of the costs which must be paid, like it or not.} Even when a corporation relocates their production out of the country to reduce labor and regulatory costs, they still make use of large numbers of benefits and services, for example patent/trademark protection by the courts and law enforcement. Their real property is protected by the courts, land registry, and fire/police. They make extensive use of the infrastructure such as roads, bridges, canals, ports and airports to distribute their products. The individuals running these corporations expect public safety services for themselves and their families. They expect their food to be safe and their drugs to be effective. They want their schools to be effective. They just feel it is unfair they or their companies have to pay for any of it. Even if the other posters are correct with the old saw "companies/corporations don't pay taxes, their customers do" (which is highly questionable, as some of the cost is allocated to the owners in the form of lower dividends), it is still worthwhile to tax the corporations their full and fair share of the governmental operating costs, so their customers know the actual cost of the product/service when the pay at the cash register, rather than making only a partial payment at the cash register and an additional *LARGE* payment on April 15th, through the IRS. NB == Having said that, it is also apparent that huge amounts of US governmental revenue, at all levels, are diverted and wasted on obsolete, extraneous, and fraudulent schemes and programs. However, the Greek solution of "do-it-yourself" tax cuts and a large and growing informal or "black" Greek economy, rather than undertaking the difficult but necessary task of repurposing and reconstituting their government to minimize waste while meeting current vital national requirements, does not appear to be a viable solution.== ----- end of prior post ------ I will however add, that this is a very difficult task with the deeply embedded status quo and grossly excessive political influence of several of the major economic sectors such as finance/banking and import/marketing which appear to be major causal factors in creating and prolonging the current economic malaise. It may well prove to be impossible to repurpose and reconstitute the US government (at all levels) to meet current requirements, until a major economic collapse occurs, analogous to the need for an addict to "hit bottom" before an intervention has any chance of being effective. The historical parallel was the landslide victory by the Democrats in 1932, with filibuster proof majorities in both houses, as well as the presidency, which enabled FDR's "first 100 days," for better and for worse. There are far worse historical examples such as the French revolution, the Bolshevik revolution in Russia, and the Chinese revolution/civil war, where entire social classes thought to be responsible for the conditions leading to the revolution were liquidated. We are indeed living in "interesting times"... -- Unka' George "Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants, but debt is the money of slaves" -Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium" |
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Is anyone really this stupid?
Edward A. Falk wrote:
In article , Steve B wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then. Try this exercise: look up the countries with the lowest tax rates. Post it here. Let's see what kind of utopias we're talking about. Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rat...the_world#List What is striking isn't the level of taxation for individuals, corporations, etc. but the range. We (the USA) aren't the highest or the lowest. But one thing that jumps out is that 0 to 35% rate. Not a lot of other countries have such a range, particularly for corporations. It turns out that in the long term, tax revenue ends up being about 20% of GDP. And it appears that many countries just nail a fixed tax rate down somewhere around this point. Taxes on individuals do tend to be in a greater range across the board because of the natural tendency to be somewhat progressive and not hurt the poor. Its not the level that people are incensed about, its the variability. -- Paul Hovnanian ------------------------------------------------------------------ I could get a new lease on life but I need the first and last month in advance. |
#32
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:10:36 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Sep 21, 9:48*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee- associates.us wrote: Someone must pay snip Unka' George snip So yes all those things have to be paid for, but the total wage packet for public workers should be about equal to the total wages in the private sector. snip We can afford all the government we need, but can not afford government that gets paid more than the private sector. Dan ==================== Where this is all heading. Note that Greece appears to be unique only in that it is first. http://www.spiegel.de/international/...787847,00.html 09/23/2011 'We Won't Pay' Greece's Middle Class Revolt against Austerity By Ferry Batzoglou and Jörg Diehl in Athens Small business owners in Greece have long been the backbone of the economy and reliable taxpayers in a country where tax evasion is rampant. That, though, is now changing. Self-employed workers like Angelos Belitsakos have had enough of rising taxes and have begun to revolt. snip The people who could ultimately give Greece the coup de grace are not the kind to throw stones or Molotov cocktails, and they have yet to torch any cars. Instead, they are people like 60-year-old beverage distributor Angelos Belitsakos, people who might soon turn into a real problem for the economically unstable country. Feeling cornered, he and other private business owners want to go on the offensive. But instead fighting with weapons, they are using something much more dangerous. They are fighting with money. Belitsakos is a short, slim and alert man who lives in the middle-class Athenian suburb of Holargos. He is also the physical and spiritual leader of a movement of business people in Greece that is recruiting new members with growing speed. While Greece's government is desperately trying to combat its ballooning budget deficit by raising taxes and imposing new fees, people like Belitsakos are putting their faith in passive resistance. The group's slogan is as simple as it is stoic: "We Won't Pay." Working 12-Hour Days, Seven Days a Week This business owners' absolute refusal to pay any taxes resembles an uprising of the ownership class, rather than the working class, a rebellion of the self-employed business owners who have long been the backbone of Greek society. These are not the people who weaseled their way into Greece's oversized civil service; these are people who put their money in the private sector, working 12-hour days, seven days a week. Or so Belitsakos says. Standing in his small store, Belitsakos makes a sweeping gesture and says that the people in his movement no longer have a choice. "The state will kill us," he says. "We're acting in self-defense." Then he starts to do the math. Over the last two years, his sales have massively shrunk as 60 of the tavernas and restaurants he used to make deliveries to have terminated their contracts with him. At the same time, the government has raised the value-added tax (VAT) twice while imposing a never-ending series of new fees. He mentions the €300 ($406) one-time fee for the self-employed, a two-percentage-point boost in the VAT, a €180 solidarity levy for the unemployed and a property tax that is "easily a few hundred euros every year." snip Belitsakos calls them "charatzi," a word from Ottoman times that can perhaps best be translated as "loot" or "compulsory levy." The term is meant to indicate taxes levied arbitrarily and without justification, such as the tithe once paid to feudal lords. "But I can't and won't pony up. It's wrong," Belitsakos says. "Don't you understand?" snip Editorial comment by UG -- Another citizen fails to see why they should be pauperized for the benefit of the supranational banks, even as increasing numbers of the poor, particularly the old and students are driven to eat from dumpsters. http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/...ns-new-make-do Eating from bins – the new make do 19 September 2011 Athens On 19 September, the Greek government announced new cuts designed to convince its partners to hand over the 6th tranche of international aid. Meanwhile in the streets of Athens, more and more people are searching for a cheap way to feed themselves. Giorgos Pouliopoulos Until now, the phenomenon was unknown in this country, but with the economic crisis, we have seen more and more people searching bins for food. In the past, only tramps and Roma rooted through bins. Then came the arrival of the Asian and African migrants who sifted through rubbish, heaping their finds into supermarket trolleys. Today Greeks are also looking through bins. Many of them are looking for things to sell, but others are searching for food. For 25 years, Iranian born Samat Eftehar has owned a tavern in Exarchia. "It is still a lively little neighbourhood. I have known most of the people here for years. Some of them who were already on low salaries have had their wages cut. They are decent people, and now they are forced to eat from bins," he says. Sometimes, he gives away food to needy people he knows. "I don’t think we have seen the last scene in this tragedy yet. Things are getting worse. There’s a real famine,” insists Samat Eftehar. “I don’t mean a famine where there is nothing to eat, like in Africa. I’m talking about a famine where people can’t even afford to buy meat once a month." snip -- Unka' George "Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants, but debt is the money of slaves" -Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium" |
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Is anyone really this stupid?
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rat...the_world#List yawn ............. good night Gracie. |
#34
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Is anyone really this stupid?
On 10/10/2011 7:52 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 13:14:39 -0700, "Steve B" wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? They will do that anyway. "Keeping" thier wealth is not as big an issue to them as "increasing" their wealth. I'm sure most of us would be able to manage the rest of our lives comfortably if we had no debts and just a couple million in the bank. That is not what drives the ultra-rich. They are driven by endless expansion as a goal in itself long after any possible life needs are meet ten times over. But there is a much stronger argument against the idea we can somehow keep the party going by picking some deep pockets. If were were to simply confiscate the wealth of anyone who is worth more than $1 million dollars - not tax it, flat out take it and put them out on the streets - it would run the federal governement for a handful of months. Then we would find ourselves with exactly the same problem we have now and a few more folks in the soup line. On the scale of federal budgets, the rich are not a big deal even if we take them collectively and even if we wipe them out. The poor have nothing to contribute. The only way out is a federal spending level that is sustainable from what taxes you can reasonably suck out of the middle class without driving them to extinction. --- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to --- while what you say is reasonably true, the real reason for taxing the very rich very heavily has NOTHING to do with money to the government, it has to do with preventing the striation of our society into "royalty" with great wealth, and a lower class that foments revolution - when we divide by income, the nation is weaker. -- For a $5 dollar donation today you get credit for $10 with HIM |
#35
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Is anyone really this stupid?
In article ,
says... On 10/10/2011 7:52 PM, Winston_Smith wrote: On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 13:14:39 -0700, "Steve B" wrote: Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the little people. Make life fair. Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth? They will do that anyway. "Keeping" thier wealth is not as big an issue to them as "increasing" their wealth. I'm sure most of us would be able to manage the rest of our lives comfortably if we had no debts and just a couple million in the bank. That is not what drives the ultra-rich. They are driven by endless expansion as a goal in itself long after any possible life needs are meet ten times over. But there is a much stronger argument against the idea we can somehow keep the party going by picking some deep pockets. If were were to simply confiscate the wealth of anyone who is worth more than $1 million dollars - not tax it, flat out take it and put them out on the streets - it would run the federal governement for a handful of months. Then we would find ourselves with exactly the same problem we have now and a few more folks in the soup line. On the scale of federal budgets, the rich are not a big deal even if we take them collectively and even if we wipe them out. The poor have nothing to contribute. The only way out is a federal spending level that is sustainable from what taxes you can reasonably suck out of the middle class without driving them to extinction. --- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to --- while what you say is reasonably true, the real reason for taxing the very rich very heavily has NOTHING to do with money to the government, it has to do with preventing the striation of our society into "royalty" with great wealth, and a lower class that foments revolution - when we divide by income, the nation is weaker. The trouble is that most such schemes don't do that, they just make it harder to get rich. |
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Is anyone really this stupid?
while what you say is reasonably true, the real reason for taxing the very rich very heavily has NOTHING to do with money to the government, Taxing anybody has NOTHING to do with money to the government. The government doesn't need money from anybody. The govt needs to tax only to keep the private sector from spending too much. The private sector spending too much is not currently a problem. In 2007 the private sector spent 4 trillion more than their income. They accomplished this over-spending by borrowing. In 2010 the private sector spent $2 trillion less than they earned. That means they didn't borrow and they saved and paid back old debt. You don't need to look any farther than that decrease in spending to explain why 15% of people who want jobs can't find a full time job. The unemployment situation would be fixed almost immediately if the federal govt just stopped taking so much in taxes. |
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