Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

The answer is yes, I really believe that some of these people are that
stupid. And then when all the wealth leaves, just as now, the definition of
rich is lowered, and the middle class is the next target.

Yet, still, life is not fair.

Barry is desperate and ANGRY. Look at his face. The man is going to blow a
blood vessel in his forehead and spatter the room with his own blood. He is
self-destructing before our eyes, and gets more irrational every day.

I wonder if that coke use (self-admitted) is coming back in flashbacks. Or
just coming back. Fair is fair. Bush was accused of drinking while being
president.

Steve

On 2011-09-19, Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

I do not think that it is quite as simple.

If a company is making certain gizmos, it will relocate its gizmo
making factory to wherever it is cheaper to make and deliver the goods
to where they are sold. So, say, bricks (expensive to ship, not so
labor intensive) are made in the US, and calipers (cheap to ship,
labor intensive) are made in China.

The driving force of this is price competition and not taxes.

Also, I believe that a US person who "relocates", still owes the
United States tax payments for a number of years. In addition, I would
guess that most people whose earned income is over a million, would
not be able to realize that income outside of the US.

Personally, I fully realize that I could not achieve anything close to
my income anywhere except the Unites States, and feel that it is quite
proper to ask me to make a suitable contribution to the budget.

I mean, I was never asked, here, for any kind of a bribe. I could not
possibly even imagine that if I tried to deal with surplus property in
Russia.

Thus, I do not feel bad about paying taxes, and wish that tax levels
honestly reflected the level of government spending.

i

On Sep 19, 3:42*pm, Ignoramus15208 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15208.invalid wrote:
On 2011-09-19, Steve B wrote:

Tax the rich. *Tax the corporations. *Take their wealth. *Give it to the
little people. *Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

I do not think that it is quite as simple.

If a company is making certain gizmos, it will relocate its gizmo
making factory to wherever it is cheaper to make and deliver the goods
to where they are sold. So, say, bricks (expensive to ship, not so
labor intensive) are made in the US, and calipers (cheap to ship,
labor intensive) are made in China.

The driving force of this is price competition and not taxes.

Also, I believe that a US person who "relocates", still owes the
United States tax payments for a number of years. In addition, I would
guess that most people whose earned income is over a million, would
not be able to realize that income outside of the US.

Personally, I fully realize that I could not achieve anything close to
my income anywhere except the Unites States, and feel that it is quite
proper to ask me to make a suitable contribution to the budget.

I mean, I was never asked, here, for any kind of a bribe. I could not
possibly even imagine that if I tried to deal with surplus property in
Russia.

Thus, I do not feel bad about paying taxes, and wish that tax levels
honestly reflected the level of government spending.

i

Iggy,
You set up a great "Yakov Smirnoff" type joke....
I just don't know how to complete it..

In America, The government spending should match the tax levels.

On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:42:58 -0500, Ignoramus15208
wrote:

On 2011-09-19, Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

I do not think that it is quite as simple.

If a company is making certain gizmos, it will relocate its gizmo
making factory to wherever it is cheaper to make and deliver the goods
to where they are sold. So, say, bricks (expensive to ship, not so
labor intensive) are made in the US, and calipers (cheap to ship,
labor intensive) are made in China.

The driving force of this is price competition and not taxes.

Also, I believe that a US person who "relocates", still owes the
United States tax payments for a number of years. In addition, I would
guess that most people whose earned income is over a million, would
not be able to realize that income outside of the US.

Why?

Personally, I fully realize that I could not achieve anything close to
my income anywhere except the Unites States, and feel that it is quite
proper to ask me to make a suitable contribution to the budget.

You make nothing. You see surplus items that ARE in the US. You are NOT
in manufacturing.

I mean, I was never asked, here, for any kind of a bribe. I could not
possibly even imagine that if I tried to deal with surplus property in
Russia.

In Russia, you simply pay a bribe and get emense quantities of goodies
from storage areas for very little money.

Did I ever discuss the guy who bought a a Mig21 from a Ruski general?
When it showed up on the boat in the harbor..it was discovered to have a
full load of munitions to go along with it..in fact..it had 2 seatrains
with the jet itself. One full of ammo/rockets/bombs and one with the
start cart and a full load of spares.

Cost the American $50k cash.


Thus, I do not feel bad about paying taxes, and wish that tax levels
honestly reflected the level of government spending.

i

"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

Gunner Asch on Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:34:15 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

The driving force of this is price competition and not taxes.

Also, I believe that a US person who "relocates", still owes the
United States tax payments for a number of years. In addition, I would
guess that most people whose earned income is over a million, would
not be able to realize that income outside of the US.

Why?

In the 1920s, the progressives jacked the top rate on millionares
(Back when a million dollars was a lot of Real Money, too) to 73%. The
next year, there were 40% (iirc) fewer "millionaires". Not that they
had suddenly gone broke, but that they had shifted their investments
to tax free municipal bonds.
That's the problem that progressives do not seem to grasp: they
believe that raising the taxes on cigarettes will result in people
modifying their behavior and quit smoking (reducing their tax
exposure), yet they seem to also feel that if they raise taxes on
income, they will not be causing people to modify their behavior to
reduce their tax exposure.
Sort of like the people who want you to believe that advertising
on TV will change you behavior, but that the programs themselves have
no impact at all. Yeah, right.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr
If poverty causes crime, as a means of crime prevention
maybe we should be doing more to make people rich?

On 9/19/2011 4:42 PM, Ignoramus15208 wrote:

Thus, I do not feel bad about paying taxes, and wish that tax levels
honestly reflected the level of government spending.

I, on the other hand, wish that spending honestly reflected the level of
taxation.

On Sep 19, 5:34*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

In Russia, you simply pay a bribe and get emense quantities of goodies
from storage areas for very little money.

Did I ever discuss the guy who bought a *a Mig21 from a Ruski general?
When it showed up on the boat in the harbor..it was discovered to have a
full load of munitions to go along with it..in fact..it had 2 seatrains
with the jet itself. One full of ammo/rockets/bombs and one with the
start cart and a full load of spares.

Cost the American $50k cash.

I bet that had the Customs boy fired up!
Did he need an FFL in that transaction?

On Monday, September 19, 2011 1:42:58 PM UTC-7, Ignoramus15208 wrote:
On 2011-09-19, Steve B
wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

I do not think that it is quite as simple.

If a company is making certain gizmos, it will relocate its gizmo
making factory to wherever it is cheaper to make

Well, but... people and companies alike benefit from government-supplied
services, creating an environment where complications (lack of safe transport,
unenforcability of contracts, unsafe airi/water/food, corrupt police) make
for added, unpredictable costs. It's worth paying a high tax rate if the benefits
are commensurate.

Like EVERY economic decision, it is NOT about cost. It's always about two
complete alternative paths, each with both costs and benefits. Never
just cost. Never just cost of taxes.

On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 10:28:14 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:
snip
Well, but... people and companies alike benefit from government-supplied
services, creating an environment where complications (lack of safe transport,
unenforcability of contracts, unsafe airi/water/food, corrupt police) make
for added, unpredictable costs. It's worth paying a high tax rate if the benefits
are commensurate.
snip
================
A point well taken, but the following article indicates that
much [how much no one knows] of the US governmental revenue
stream is p***ed off, with no benefit to anyone except the
gouging meeting coordinator and [likely] the people they
paid off.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...nferences.html
$16 Muffins Found at U.S. Meetings
By Seth Stern - Sep 20, 2011 2:58 PM CT

U. S. Justice Department agencies spent too much for food at
conferences, in one case serving $16 muffins and in another
dishing out beef Wellington appetizers that cost $7.32 per
serving, an audit found.

“Some conferences featured costly meals, refreshments, and
themed breaks that we believe were indicative of wasteful or
extravagant spending,” the Justice Department’s inspector
general wrote in a report released today.

snip

A March 2009 conference of the Office on Violence Against
Women served Cracker Jacks, popcorn and candy bars at a
single break, costing $32 per person, according to the
report.

snip
$5 Swedish Meatball {very spicy! -- UG comment}

The report is a follow-up to one from 2007 that found the
Justice Department had few controls to limit the costs of
conference planning, food and beverages. That audit cited a
reception that included Swedish meatballs costing $5 apiece.

snip

This does not appear to motivate most people to pay more in
taxes, and indeed is a powerful selling point for the Greek
tax paying system...


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 06:47:16 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Sep 19, 5:34*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

In Russia, you simply pay a bribe and get emense quantities of goodies
from storage areas for very little money.

Did I ever discuss the guy who bought a *a Mig21 from a Ruski general?
When it showed up on the boat in the harbor..it was discovered to have a
full load of munitions to go along with it..in fact..it had 2 seatrains
with the jet itself. One full of ammo/rockets/bombs and one with the
start cart and a full load of spares.

Cost the American $50k cash.

I bet that had the Customs boy fired up!
Did he need an FFL in that transaction?

He didnt know they were coming fully armed. Americans wouldnt normally
consider it. It was a rather interesting 18 months for the
guy....chuckle.

I understand he finally got the bird..sans all the fun toys.

Gunner

"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:57:22 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


A March 2009 conference of the Office on Violence Against
Women served Cracker Jacks, popcorn and candy bars at a
single break, costing $32 per person, according to the
report.


Thats some damned expensive munchies....


"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 06:47:16 -0700 (PDT), Rex
wrote:

On Sep 19, 5:34*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

In Russia, you simply pay a bribe and get emense quantities of goodies
from storage areas for very little money.

Did I ever discuss the guy who bought a *a Mig21 from a Ruski general?
When it showed up on the boat in the harbor..it was discovered to have a
full load of munitions to go along with it..in fact..it had 2 seatrains
with the jet itself. One full of ammo/rockets/bombs and one with the
start cart and a full load of spares.

Cost the American $50k cash.

I bet that had the Customs boy fired up!
Did he need an FFL in that transaction?

Har! I'll bet the ATF wouldn't settle for a $200 tax stamp on that
baby, either.

Neighbor's dogs barking again? Strafe their back yard.

--
A sound mind in a sound body is a short but full description
of a happy state in this world.
-- John Locke

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

Try this exercise: look up the countries with the lowest tax rates.
Post it here. Let's see what kind of utopias we're talking about.

http://www.businesspundit.com/12-cou...est-tax-rates/

Stated to be based on average income workers:

Switzerland - 20%
USA ~ 27%
Australia 31%
Canada 31.2%
Japan 33%
U.K. 32%


compared with

Belgium 54%
Finland 46.6%
Germany 45%
Denmark 44.4%
Italy 43%
France 40%

Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing
business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so
on.

Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing
business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so
on.

Cheers,

John B.

And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering.....

Gunner

"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to
the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will
not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their
wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing
business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so
on.

Cheers,

John B.

And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering.....

Gunner

First, nowhere near "50% of US manufacturing" has moved offshore. The dollar
volume of US domestic manufacturing continues to climb.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/IPMAN

It's the jobs that have gone away, not the manufacturing itself.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MANEMP

The first reason is higher current and future profitability of offshore
operations. It has very little to do with taxes, as you'll see if you read
the business economics reports instead of the general press. It's mostly
about growth in customer bases, which is the primary reason for
manufacturing in China.

After that, it's free or almost free land and/or manufacturing plants; wages
hovering around $1/hour; state assumption of health care insurance costs;
and state-supported loans.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2011-09-21, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing
business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so
on.


And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering.....

Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits.

i

Gunner Asch on Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

One reason may be the economic uncertainty in the States. That is
one reason the Great Depression is hanging on so long - the "rule
change of the week" from the apparachniks in DC makes planning "long
term" a crap shoot.
But that is the recent four years. Before then - well,
regulations made it less expensive to move production overseas. E.G.
Remember the "Brat"? Because it was basically a truck, it was subject
to a lesser customs "fee". Same with the SUV - it replaced the
station wagons because station wagons were "cars" but SUVs are
"trucks". Big difference in how they apply to CAFE standards, excise
taxes, and the rest.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Gunner Asch on Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...antlinger.html

In a word "Containerization". Made it cheap to ship stuff from
plant to distribution center. Cheap enough that the plant could be
moved to another country.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:11:41 -0500, Ignoramus17765
wrote:

On 2011-09-21, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing
business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so
on.


And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering.....

Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits.

Income taxes..you seem to be leaving out property taxes, fees etc etc
etc

You do remember that there are other things besides income taxes..right?
And of course if Joe isnt working much..he doesnt have much money to
spend..right? And if he cant afford to buy something..the people that
make that something, lose Joe as a buyer...so they dont make the money
from Joe....etc etc etc



i

"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 06:59:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing
business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so
on.

Cheers,

John B.

And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering.....

Gunner


Sure.

Cost of permanent plant - real estate - is normally cheaper then in
the U.S. and labour costs are significantly lower. Comparing the much
touted $60.00 an hour (in costs) for the U.S. car industry to
something like $16.00 a day (for an average Thai Government worker)
and adding local government mandated retirement and medical costs U.S.
labour costs may be 30 times higher then foreign wages.

Internal transportation costs are significantly lower and normally raw
materials are cheaper. Insurance costs are lower, being based on lower
priced plant and personal costs.

In most foreign countries the government mandates salary levels and
labour unions are either controlled or nonexistent. Costly strikes are
extremely rare or nonexistent.

Government interference in operations are rare - I remember the story
told in this group about the safety inspector who made the guy repaint
the yellow "walk lines" because they were "the wrong shade of yellow".
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:01:07 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:11:41 -0500, Ignoramus17765
wrote:

On 2011-09-21, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing
business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so
on.


And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering.....

Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits.

Income taxes..you seem to be leaving out property taxes, fees etc etc
etc

You do remember that there are other things besides income taxes..right?
And of course if Joe isnt working much..he doesnt have much money to
spend..right? And if he cant afford to buy something..the people that
make that something, lose Joe as a buyer...so they dont make the money
from Joe....etc etc etc


Firstly, working people in most Asian countries can afford to buy
things. The thing that you are overlooking is that things cost less
here. Have a look at the "Big Mac Index".

A big mac costs $4.07 in the U.S.

(in US Dollars)
Malaysia - $2.30
Thailand - $2.29
Hong Kong - $1.93
China - $2.30

And a visit to McDonalds would be a rare event to the average working
man in these countries. The average local meal is more like US$ 1.50.

Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC),
(Edward A. Falk) wrote:

snip
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

Try this exercise: look up the countries with the lowest tax rates.
Post it here. Let's see what kind of utopias we're talking about.
snip
===============

The costs to operate and maintain a developed country are
high and projected to go higher.

Someone must pay for the infrastructure improvement and
maintenance, e.g. roads, bridges, canals, ports, airports,
sewers, water, etc. Someone must pay for "education,"
especially for free, universal compulsory education, which
is required to keep the whole thing running. Someone must
pay for the military force to defend the country. Someone
must pay for the emergency/public safety services we all
take for granted such as police, fire, and EMT. Someone
must pay for the courts, land registeries and prisons.
Someone must pay for clean food and effective drugs. Someone
must pay for the social services and "safety nets."

When individuals and organizations attempt to enjoy the
benefits and services of a developed country but are
unwilling to pay their share of the cost, it is called
"freeloading" or tax evasion, and what they don't pay, but
use *MUST BE PAID FOR BY EVERONE ELSE.*

Even when a corporation relocates their production out of
the country to reduce labor and regulatory costs, they still
make use of large numbers of benefits and services, for
example patent/trademark protection by the courts and law
enforcement. Their real property is protected by the
courts, land registry, and fire/police. They make extensive
use of the infrastructure such as roads, bridges, canals,
ports and airports to distribute their products. The
individuals running these corporations expect public safety
services for themselves and their families. They expect
their food to be safe and their drugs to be effective. They
want their schools to be effective. They just feel it is
unfair they or their companies have to pay for any of it.

Even if the other posters are correct with the old saw
"companies/corporations don't pay taxes, their customers do"
(which is highly questionable, as some of the cost is to the
owners in the form of lower dividends), it is still
worthwhile to tax the corporations their full and fair share
of the national operating costs, so their customers know the
actual cost of the product when the pay at the cash
register, rather than making only a partial payment at the
cash register and an addition *LARGE* payment on April 15th,
through the IRS.


Having said that, it is also apparent that huge amounts of
US governmental revenue, at all levels, are diverted and
wasted on obsolete, extraneous, and fraudulent schemes and
programs. However, the Greek solution of "do-it-yourself"
tax cuts and a large and growing informal or "black" Greek
economy, rather than undertaking the difficult but necessary
task of repurposing and reconstituting their government to
minimize waste while meeting current vital national
requirements, does not appear to be a viable solution.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 08:42:59 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:01:07 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:11:41 -0500, Ignoramus17765
wrote:

On 2011-09-21, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing
business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so
on.


And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering.....

Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits.

Income taxes..you seem to be leaving out property taxes, fees etc etc
etc

You do remember that there are other things besides income taxes..right?
And of course if Joe isnt working much..he doesnt have much money to
spend..right? And if he cant afford to buy something..the people that
make that something, lose Joe as a buyer...so they dont make the money
from Joe....etc etc etc


Firstly, working people in most Asian countries can afford to buy
things. The thing that you are overlooking is that things cost less
here. Have a look at the "Big Mac Index".

A big mac costs $4.07 in the U.S.

(in US Dollars)
Malaysia - $2.30
Thailand - $2.29
Hong Kong - $1.93
China - $2.30

And a visit to McDonalds would be a rare event to the average working
man in these countries. The average local meal is more like US$ 1.50.

Cheers,

John B.

Yes and?

I know 3 couples who are currently living in their cars. And this has
what to do with a Happy Meal?

Gunner

"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 08:27:29 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 06:59:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing
business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so
on.

Cheers,

John B.

And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering.....

Gunner


Sure.

Cost of permanent plant - real estate - is normally cheaper then in
the U.S. and labour costs are significantly lower. Comparing the much
touted $60.00 an hour (in costs) for the U.S. car industry to
something like $16.00 a day (for an average Thai Government worker)
and adding local government mandated retirement and medical costs U.S.
labour costs may be 30 times higher then foreign wages.

Internal transportation costs are significantly lower and normally raw
materials are cheaper. Insurance costs are lower, being based on lower
priced plant and personal costs.

In most foreign countries the government mandates salary levels and
labour unions are either controlled or nonexistent. Costly strikes are
extremely rare or nonexistent.

Government interference in operations are rare - I remember the story
told in this group about the safety inspector who made the guy repaint
the yellow "walk lines" because they were "the wrong shade of yellow".
Cheers,

John B.

Thank you. As I said..income taxes, other taxes and fees...all of which
are paying for those clowns who check line color.....among just a
few....




"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

On Sep 21, 9:48*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:

Someone must pay for the infrastructure improvement and
maintenance, e.g. roads, bridges, canals, ports, airports,
sewers, water, etc. *Someone must pay for "education,"
especially for free, universal compulsory education, which
is required to keep the whole thing running. *Someone must
pay for the military force to defend the country. *Someone
must pay for the emergency/public safety services we all
take for granted such as police, fire, and EMT. *Someone
must pay for the courts, land registeries and prisons.
Someone must pay for clean food and effective drugs. Someone
must pay for the social services and "safety nets."


Unka' George

A long time ago I lived in Madison County, Alabama. The taxes were
fairly low, but those that worked for the county actually worked. And
were paid realistic wages. They had adequate pensions, but not gold
plated ones. At the time Madison County was the only county in the
U.S. that had every road in the county paved. And the roads were in
good shape. Not the pothole pocked roads that exist around here.

So yes all those things have to be paid for, but the total wage packet
for public workers should be about equal to the total wages in the
private sector. What has happened in most places is that the state
and county workers have unionized. And the union has been able to
bargain for better pensions and better healthcare than exists in the
private sector. This happens because those that approve the wage
contracts have no incentive to keep costs contained. If they approve
gold plated pensions, the public workers vote for them. So the
politicians prosper by approving wage and benefit increases.

This ends up requiring higher taxes. Which increases costs for
businesses, and leads to jobs going overseas.

We can afford all the government we need, but can not afford
government that gets paid more than the private sector.

Dan

Ignoramus wrote:

Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits.


Bull****. Every cent that a business has to pay out, is part of the
overall cost. It doesn't matter if the income tax is the responsibility
of their employees, since they have to collect & forward them to the
proper agencies.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Gunner Asch on Wed, 21 Sep 2011 17:01:07 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:11:41 -0500, Ignoramus17765
wrote:

On 2011-09-21, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:04:14 +0700, john B.
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:08:58 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:56:52 +0000 (UTC), (Edward A.
Falk) wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

So where all the TV set makers here in the US? The Audio manufactures?
The machinery makers such as lathes and mills? Heavy equipment?
Automobiles? Die stamped puzzles? Toys? etc etc etc etc

Why is 50% of American manufacturing...gone to other lands?

Hummm?

Gunner

I doubt that it is taxes, per se, but rather the entire cost of doing
business. Tax, labour and material costs, plant and equipment, and so
on.


And what makes up those costs? Think hard before answering.....

Income taxes do not add to costs, they tax profits.

Income taxes..you seem to be leaving out property taxes, fees etc etc
etc

You do remember that there are other things besides income taxes..right?
And of course if Joe isnt working much..he doesnt have much money to
spend..right? And if he cant afford to buy something..the people that
make that something, lose Joe as a buyer...so they dont make the money
from Joe....etc etc etc

From Peter Schiff's prepared remarks to Congress. Schiff is the
CEO of Euro Pacific Capital.:

"In my own business, securities regulations have prohibited me
from hiring brokers for more than three years. I was even fined
fifteen thousand dollar expressly for hiring too many brokers in 2008.
In the process I incurred more than $500,000 in legal bills to
mitigate a more severe regulatory outcome as a result of hiring too
many workers. I have also been prohibited from opening up additional
offices. I had a major expansion plan that would have resulted in my
creating hundreds of additional jobs. Regulations have forced me to
put those jobs on hold."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid... y_people.html
== end quote ==

A company is fined for hiring too many workers. It cost the
company half a million dollars in legal fees to avoid a worse outcome.
And this is suppose to help the economy how?
How any other companies have had similar problems, or have heard
of similar problems, and have no desire to go to that dance. So they
are "sitting this one out" - too bad for the people they would have
hired, but ... . What you tax, you get less of; what you subsidize,
you get ore of.


--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:10:36 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sep 21, 9:48*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:

Someone must pay for the infrastructure improvement and
maintenance, e.g. roads, bridges, canals, ports, airports,
sewers, water, etc. *Someone must pay for "education,"
especially for free, universal compulsory education, which
is required to keep the whole thing running. *Someone must
pay for the military force to defend the country. *Someone
must pay for the emergency/public safety services we all
take for granted such as police, fire, and EMT. *Someone
must pay for the courts, land registeries and prisons.
Someone must pay for clean food and effective drugs. Someone
must pay for the social services and "safety nets."


Unka' George

A long time ago I lived in Madison County, Alabama. The taxes were
fairly low, but those that worked for the county actually worked. And
were paid realistic wages. They had adequate pensions, but not gold
plated ones. At the time Madison County was the only county in the
U.S. that had every road in the county paved. And the roads were in
good shape. Not the pothole pocked roads that exist around here.

So yes all those things have to be paid for, but the total wage packet
for public workers should be about equal to the total wages in the
private sector. What has happened in most places is that the state
and county workers have unionized. And the union has been able to
bargain for better pensions and better healthcare than exists in the
private sector. This happens because those that approve the wage
contracts have no incentive to keep costs contained. If they approve
gold plated pensions, the public workers vote for them. So the
politicians prosper by approving wage and benefit increases.

This ends up requiring higher taxes. Which increases costs for
businesses, and leads to jobs going overseas.

We can afford all the government we need, but can not afford
government that gets paid more than the private sector.

Dan
==================

Indeed, this is one of the factors, and appears to be an
extremely common "symptom" as organizations increase in size
and complexity. General Motors Corporation is the poster
child for this.

Another factor, noted in a separate posting, is a tendency
to lose any sense of the value of money, given the millions
and billions the managers deal with every day.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...nferences.html
$16 Muffins Found at U.S. Meetings
By Seth Stern - Sep 20, 2011 2:58 PM CT

Yet a third factor is the borderline fraud, angle playing,
and corner cutting, which (apparently) crosses the line into
actual fraud, as it is commonly understood, fairly
frequently, e.g. TARP, most of the FRB stimulus schemes, and
of course the latest item to float to the surface --
Solyndra.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...78J5RE20110920
snip
Reuters) - Solyndra LLC's chief executive and chief
financial officer will invoke their Fifth Amendment rights
and decline to answer any questions put to them at a
Congressional hearing on Friday, according to letters from
their attorneys obtained by Reuters.
snip

There is nothing new in this with the current
administration. The Reconstruction Finance Corporation,
started under Herbert Hoover and continued under FDR, during
the "great depression" had the same types of problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconst...ce_Corporation
http://library.cqpress.com/cqresearc...srre1951120500


You might try reading the rest of my previous post where I
wrote:

---- from prior post ------

When individuals and organizations attempt to enjoy the
benefits and services of a developed country but are
unwilling to pay their share of the cost, it is called
"freeloading" or tax evasion, and what they don't pay, but
use *MUST BE PAID FOR BY EVERONE ELSE.*

{I will add that fraud, waste and abuse are part of the
costs which must be paid, like it or not.}

Even when a corporation relocates their production out of
the country to reduce labor and regulatory costs, they still
make use of large numbers of benefits and services, for
example patent/trademark protection by the courts and law
enforcement. Their real property is protected by the
courts, land registry, and fire/police. They make extensive
use of the infrastructure such as roads, bridges, canals,
ports and airports to distribute their products. The
individuals running these corporations expect public safety
services for themselves and their families. They expect
their food to be safe and their drugs to be effective. They
want their schools to be effective. They just feel it is
unfair they or their companies have to pay for any of it.

Even if the other posters are correct with the old saw
"companies/corporations don't pay taxes, their customers do"
(which is highly questionable, as some of the cost is
allocated to the owners in the form of lower dividends), it
is still worthwhile to tax the corporations their full and
fair share of the governmental operating costs, so their
customers know the actual cost of the product/service when
the pay at the cash register, rather than making only a
partial payment at the cash register and an additional
*LARGE* payment on April 15th, through the IRS.


NB == Having said that, it is also apparent that huge
amounts of US governmental revenue, at all levels, are
diverted and wasted on obsolete, extraneous, and fraudulent
schemes and programs. However, the Greek solution of
"do-it-yourself" tax cuts and a large and growing informal
or "black" Greek economy, rather than undertaking the
difficult but necessary task of repurposing and
reconstituting their government to minimize waste while
meeting current vital national requirements, does not appear
to be a viable solution.==

----- end of prior post ------

I will however add, that this is a very difficult task with
the deeply embedded status quo and grossly excessive
political influence of several of the major economic sectors
such as finance/banking and import/marketing which appear to
be major causal factors in creating and prolonging the
current economic malaise.

It may well prove to be impossible to repurpose and
reconstitute the US government (at all levels) to meet
current requirements, until a major economic collapse
occurs, analogous to the need for an addict to "hit bottom"
before an intervention has any chance of being effective.
The historical parallel was the landslide victory by the
Democrats in 1932, with filibuster proof majorities in both
houses, as well as the presidency, which enabled FDR's
"first 100 days," for better and for worse.

There are far worse historical examples such as the French
revolution, the Bolshevik revolution in Russia, and the
Chinese revolution/civil war, where entire social classes
thought to be responsible for the conditions leading to the
revolution were liquidated.

We are indeed living in "interesting times"...


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

Edward A. Falk wrote:

In article ,
Steve B wrote:
Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their
wealth?

Taxes on the rich used to be much, much higher than they are now and
there was no mass relocation to 3rd world countries back then.

Try this exercise: look up the countries with the lowest tax rates.
Post it here. Let's see what kind of utopias we're talking about.


Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rat...the_world#List

What is striking isn't the level of taxation for individuals, corporations,
etc. but the range. We (the USA) aren't the highest or the lowest. But one
thing that jumps out is that 0 to 35% rate.

Not a lot of other countries have such a range, particularly for
corporations. It turns out that in the long term, tax revenue ends up being
about 20% of GDP. And it appears that many countries just nail a fixed tax
rate down somewhere around this point. Taxes on individuals do tend to be
in a greater range across the board because of the natural tendency to be
somewhat progressive and not hurt the poor.

Its not the level that people are incensed about, its the variability.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
I could get a new lease on life but I need the first and last month
in advance.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:10:36 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sep 21, 9:48*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:

Someone must pay
snip
Unka' George

snip
So yes all those things have to be paid for, but the total wage packet
for public workers should be about equal to the total wages in the
private sector.
snip
We can afford all the government we need, but can not afford
government that gets paid more than the private sector.

Dan
====================
Where this is all heading. Note that Greece appears to be
unique only in that it is first.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...787847,00.html
09/23/2011
'We Won't Pay'
Greece's Middle Class Revolt against Austerity
By Ferry Batzoglou and Jörg Diehl in Athens

Small business owners in Greece have long been the backbone
of the economy and reliable taxpayers in a country where tax
evasion is rampant. That, though, is now changing.
Self-employed workers like Angelos Belitsakos have had
enough of rising taxes and have begun to revolt.
snip
The people who could ultimately give Greece the coup de
grace are not the kind to throw stones or Molotov cocktails,
and they have yet to torch any cars. Instead, they are
people like 60-year-old beverage distributor Angelos
Belitsakos, people who might soon turn into a real problem
for the economically unstable country. Feeling cornered, he
and other private business owners want to go on the
offensive. But instead fighting with weapons, they are using
something much more dangerous. They are fighting with money.

Belitsakos is a short, slim and alert man who lives in the
middle-class Athenian suburb of Holargos. He is also the
physical and spiritual leader of a movement of business
people in Greece that is recruiting new members with growing
speed. While Greece's government is desperately trying to
combat its ballooning budget deficit by raising taxes and
imposing new fees, people like Belitsakos are putting their
faith in passive resistance.

The group's slogan is as simple as it is stoic: "We Won't
Pay."

Working 12-Hour Days, Seven Days a Week

This business owners' absolute refusal to pay any taxes
resembles an uprising of the ownership class, rather than
the working class, a rebellion of the self-employed business
owners who have long been the backbone of Greek society.
These are not the people who weaseled their way into
Greece's oversized civil service; these are people who put
their money in the private sector, working 12-hour days,
seven days a week. Or so Belitsakos says.

Standing in his small store, Belitsakos makes a sweeping
gesture and says that the people in his movement no longer
have a choice. "The state will kill us," he says. "We're
acting in self-defense." Then he starts to do the math. Over
the last two years, his sales have massively shrunk as 60 of
the tavernas and restaurants he used to make deliveries to
have terminated their contracts with him. At the same time,
the government has raised the value-added tax (VAT) twice
while imposing a never-ending series of new fees. He
mentions the €300 ($406) one-time fee for the self-employed,
a two-percentage-point boost in the VAT, a €180 solidarity
levy for the unemployed and a property tax that is "easily a
few hundred euros every year."

snip

Belitsakos calls them "charatzi," a word from Ottoman times
that can perhaps best be translated as "loot" or "compulsory
levy." The term is meant to indicate taxes levied
arbitrarily and without justification, such as the tithe
once paid to feudal lords. "But I can't and won't pony up.
It's wrong," Belitsakos says. "Don't you understand?"
snip

Editorial comment by UG --
Another citizen fails to see why they should be pauperized
for the benefit of the supranational banks, even as
increasing numbers of the poor, particularly the old and
students are driven to eat from dumpsters.

http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/...ns-new-make-do
Eating from bins – the new make do
19 September 2011 Athens
On 19 September, the Greek government announced new cuts
designed to convince its partners to hand over the 6th
tranche of international aid. Meanwhile in the streets of
Athens, more and more people are searching for a cheap way
to feed themselves.
Giorgos Pouliopoulos

Until now, the phenomenon was unknown in this country, but
with the economic crisis, we have seen more and more people
searching bins for food. In the past, only tramps and Roma
rooted through bins. Then came the arrival of the Asian and
African migrants who sifted through rubbish, heaping their
finds into supermarket trolleys. Today Greeks are also
looking through bins. Many of them are looking for things to
sell, but others are searching for food.

For 25 years, Iranian born Samat Eftehar has owned a tavern
in Exarchia. "It is still a lively little neighbourhood. I
have known most of the people here for years. Some of them
who were already on low salaries have had their wages cut.
They are decent people, and now they are forced to eat from
bins," he says.

Sometimes, he gives away food to needy people he knows. "I
don’t think we have seen the last scene in this tragedy yet.
Things are getting worse. There’s a real famine,” insists
Samat Eftehar. “I don’t mean a famine where there is nothing
to eat, like in Africa. I’m talking about a famine where
people can’t even afford to buy meat once a month."
snip


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote


Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rat...the_world#List


yawn ............. good night Gracie.

On 10/10/2011 7:52 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 13:14:39 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:

Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

They will do that anyway. "Keeping" thier wealth is not as big an
issue to them as "increasing" their wealth. I'm sure most of us would
be able to manage the rest of our lives comfortably if we had no debts
and just a couple million in the bank. That is not what drives the
ultra-rich. They are driven by endless expansion as a goal in itself
long after any possible life needs are meet ten times over.

But there is a much stronger argument against the idea we can somehow
keep the party going by picking some deep pockets.


If were were to simply confiscate the wealth of anyone who is worth
more than $1 million dollars - not tax it, flat out take it and put
them out on the streets - it would run the federal governement for a
handful of months.

Then we would find ourselves with exactly the same problem we have now
and a few more folks in the soup line.

On the scale of federal budgets, the rich are not a big deal even if
we take them collectively and even if we wipe them out. The poor have
nothing to contribute.

The only way out is a federal spending level that is sustainable from
what taxes you can reasonably suck out of the middle class without
driving them to extinction.

--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ---

while what you say is reasonably true, the real reason for taxing the
very rich very heavily has NOTHING to do with money to the government,
it has to do with preventing the striation of our society into "royalty"
with great wealth, and a lower class that foments revolution - when we
divide by income, the nation is weaker.


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For a $5 dollar donation today you get credit for $10 with HIM

In article ,
says...

On 10/10/2011 7:52 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2011 13:14:39 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:

Tax the rich. Tax the corporations. Take their wealth. Give it to the
little people. Make life fair.

Are these people so foolish to think these people and companies will not
relocate and I mean RIGHT NOW to third world countries to keep their wealth?

They will do that anyway. "Keeping" thier wealth is not as big an
issue to them as "increasing" their wealth. I'm sure most of us would
be able to manage the rest of our lives comfortably if we had no debts
and just a couple million in the bank. That is not what drives the
ultra-rich. They are driven by endless expansion as a goal in itself
long after any possible life needs are meet ten times over.

But there is a much stronger argument against the idea we can somehow
keep the party going by picking some deep pockets.


If were were to simply confiscate the wealth of anyone who is worth
more than $1 million dollars - not tax it, flat out take it and put
them out on the streets - it would run the federal governement for a
handful of months.

Then we would find ourselves with exactly the same problem we have now
and a few more folks in the soup line.

On the scale of federal budgets, the rich are not a big deal even if
we take them collectively and even if we wipe them out. The poor have
nothing to contribute.

The only way out is a federal spending level that is sustainable from
what taxes you can reasonably suck out of the middle class without
driving them to extinction.

--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ---

while what you say is reasonably true, the real reason for taxing the
very rich very heavily has NOTHING to do with money to the government,
it has to do with preventing the striation of our society into "royalty"
with great wealth, and a lower class that foments revolution - when we
divide by income, the nation is weaker.

The trouble is that most such schemes don't do that, they just make it
harder to get rich.

while what you say is reasonably true, the real reason for taxing the
very rich very heavily has NOTHING to do with money to the government,

Taxing anybody has NOTHING to do with money to the government.
The government doesn't need money from anybody.

The govt needs to tax only to keep the private sector from
spending too much.

The private sector spending too much is not currently a problem.

In 2007 the private sector spent 4 trillion more than
their income. They accomplished this over-spending by borrowing.
In 2010 the private sector spent $2 trillion less than they earned.
That means they didn't borrow and they saved and paid back old debt.

You don't need to look any farther than that decrease in spending to
explain why 15% of people who want jobs can't find a full time job.

The unemployment situation would be fixed almost immediately if
the federal govt just stopped taking so much in taxes.