I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:29:32 -0700, yoyomonk wrote:

I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer wade
through the political garbage looking for what little interesting and
educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

What happened?

Impending election year. It always gets worse when the presidential
elections are impending, although it is getting worse.

If you find a forum that's better, let us know. In the mean time,
investigate the use of kill files.

--
www.wescottdesign.com

On 9/9/2011 4:29 PM, wrote:
I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

Just killfile a few ppl and it will be good again.

On 9/9/2011 4:29 PM, wrote:
I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

Killfiling Gunner Asch, Ed Huntress, and Dave Smithers ("Hawke") will
remove the majority of the "political garbage" while deleting very
little actual metalworking content.

If you can manage to ignore all crossposted articles, this is a lively
newsgroup.

i

On 2011-09-09, wrote:
I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

On Sep 9, 1:29*pm, wrote:
I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

Are you on parole? When did you get released?

your pal

On 2011-09-09, wrote:
I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

Get a newsreader with good killfile capability and learn to use
it.

I start up on a typical evening with 300-600 unread articles
showing before the killfile does its thing, and wind up with 30-60
articles to actually deal with.

One of the starting points is set up to discard all articles
with more than one or two newsgroups in the "Newsgroups: " header. Then
add specific individual posters to the killfile, and finally add
particular words to the "Subject: " blocking. A good start is the names
of political individuals -- you'll see who to add as time goes on, and
certain words which would not be used in discussing metalwork, but would
in various political rants.

My newsreader ("slrn", which is a unix-based newsreader) has the
ability to set expiration time for various blocking -- so some subjects
can be automatically removed from the filtering when the discussion is
likely to have expired. I typically set 90 to 360 days of expiration
time.

Sure -- new things have to be added from time to time, but
overall it makes it a pretty usable newsgroup.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

wrote in message
news
I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

It is Usenet in general. Many long lived groups are dead now, or in their
last gasps. Filter, generously applying your own parameters.

Steve - Who is actually doing some metalworking.

on Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:29:32 -0700 typed in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

try
alt.politics.obama,
alt.california,
alt.society.labor-unions
alt.politics

"it couldn't hoit!"

pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On 9/9/2011 10:48 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
on Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:29:32 -0700 typed in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

try
alt.politics.obama,
alt.california,
alt.society.labor-unions
alt.politics

"it couldn't hoit!"

pyotr


This is a .rec newsgroup.

alt.ANYTHING would be a bogus cross post.

On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:29:32 -0700, wrote:

I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

So you are a sucker upper..rather than a question asker?

Bummer!

Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:29:32 -0700,
wrote:

I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.
==================
One of the problems is that several posters are cross
posting into the political/activist newsgroups and we are
seeing all of their chatter. If possible remember to prune
the distro list back to AMC and/or RCM when replying.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 01:47:01 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:29:32 -0700,
wrote:

I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.
==================
One of the problems is that several posters are cross
posting into the political/activist newsgroups and we are
seeing all of their chatter. If possible remember to prune
the distro list back to AMC and/or RCM when replying.


Actually George..those *******s cross posted into RCM.

Only groups I ever intentionally cross post into is alt.machines.cnc and
misc.survivalism as we have a broad group of people here..who use all 3
groups.

Gunner

--
"The danger to America is not Barack Obama but a citizenry
capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.
It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an
Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense
and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have
such a man for their? president.. Blaming the prince of the
fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of
fools that made him their prince".

On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:29:32 -0700, wrote:

I've been off this group for quite a while.Now I find myself sorry to
have rteturned. I do recollect some lively (and short) rants from both
left and right. But this has gotten ridiculous. Can anyone recommend a
newsgroup where metalworking posts are still made? I can no longer
wade through the political garbage looking for what little interesting
and educational stuff is left on a site that was supposed to be about
metalworking.

This group is generally on topic when all the idiots who crosspost
are eliminated.

With the recent Agent filter thread I have managed to eliminate
crossposted garbage and with a few idiots like budgie killfiled the
messages have been reduced from 200+ daily to about 70. Then I
simply skip any post which does not interest me.

Thanks to all who contributed to the Agent thread.

Alan

On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 09:34:43 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pinstripe Sniper" wrote ...
Doug Miller wrote:
Killfiling Gunner Asch, Ed Huntress, and Dave Smithers ("Hawke") will
remove the majority of the "political garbage" while deleting very
little actual metalworking content.

LOL Huntress? Sheeee-et, I'd pay to read his stuff. He reminds me of
James Fallows. = COMPLIMENT
....
That's very kind of you, Sniper. I think that Doug just doesn't like my
politics. d8-)

It doesn't matter whether he likes your politics or not, politics
are off-topic in r.c.m. I think we all lose and no one gains
anything when politics are discussed in r.c.m. Why should those
of us who are interested in metalworking have to filter out 3/4 or
more of the posts here to get to what we are interested in?

--
jiw

"James Waldby" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 09:34:43 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pinstripe Sniper" wrote ...
Doug Miller wrote:
Killfiling Gunner Asch, Ed Huntress, and Dave Smithers ("Hawke") will
remove the majority of the "political garbage" while deleting very
little actual metalworking content.

LOL Huntress? Sheeee-et, I'd pay to read his stuff. He reminds me of
James Fallows. = COMPLIMENT
...
That's very kind of you, Sniper. I think that Doug just doesn't like my
politics. d8-)

It doesn't matter whether he likes your politics or not...

Yeah, it does matter a great deal.

..., politics
are off-topic in r.c.m.

Tell Gunner. He started it a decade ago, cross-posting to the crackpots on
misc.suvivalism in order to drag in supporters for his endless provocations
and insults. Then it was picked up by Cliff, then TMT, and then the
nym-shifting, cross-posting reprobate Hammy, from misc.survivalism.nutbags,
who has a dozen or so sock puppets, has made a career out of insulting
people on RCM.

I think we all lose and no one gains
anything when politics are discussed in r.c.m. Why should those
of us who are interested in metalworking have to filter out 3/4 or
more of the posts here to get to what we are interested in?

Good question. As I said, ask Gunner why he started the insults. He won't
give you a realistic answer, but he's the source. Then ask yourself how many
insults one has to just take (I took many of them before ever shooting back)
before they lock and load.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sep 10, 12:52*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


It doesn't matter whether he likes your politics or not...

Yeah, it does matter a great deal.

..., politics
are off-topic in r.c.m.

--
Ed Huntress

So you are saying that some political postings are on topic? I sure
do not follow that logic.

Dan

wrote in message
...
On Sep 10, 12:52 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


It doesn't matter whether he likes your politics or not...

Yeah, it does matter a great deal.

..., politics
are off-topic in r.c.m.

--
Ed Huntress

So you are saying that some political postings are on topic?

I'm saying what I said.

I sure
do not follow that logic.

That's because you made up "what I'm saying" in your head.

--
Ed Huntress


Dan

On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 16:33:22 +0000 (UTC), James Waldby
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 09:34:43 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pinstripe Sniper" wrote ...
Doug Miller wrote:
Killfiling Gunner Asch, Ed Huntress, and Dave Smithers ("Hawke") will
remove the majority of the "political garbage" while deleting very
little actual metalworking content.

LOL Huntress? Sheeee-et, I'd pay to read his stuff. He reminds me of
James Fallows. = COMPLIMENT
...
That's very kind of you, Sniper. I think that Doug just doesn't like my
politics. d8-)

It doesn't matter whether he likes your politics or not, politics
are off-topic in r.c.m. I think we all lose and no one gains
anything when politics are discussed in r.c.m. Why should those
of us who are interested in metalworking have to filter out 3/4 or
more of the posts here to get to what we are interested in?

Because when we asked you years ago to keep your cross-posting trolls
on a shorter leash, you shrugged it off like it was no big deal. Your
trolls cross-posting into misc.survivalism started the whole mess and
now your chickens have come home to roost.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 10:04:01 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sep 10, 12:52*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


It doesn't matter whether he likes your politics or not...

Yeah, it does matter a great deal.

..., politics
are off-topic in r.c.m.

--
Ed Huntress

So you are saying that some political postings are on topic? I sure
do not follow that logic.

Dan
===================

If not a justification then at least a rationale...

Politics is simply organized efforts to change the thrust
and direction of government.

Government, for what ever reason – most likely rapidly
increasing population density is a major factor – has
continued to increase to the point that it at least attempts
to regulate every aspect of our personal and working lives.
From local zoning and home owners associations restricting
home metal working (or even working on your car in your own
driveway) to facilitating, aiding and abetting the
speculation in commodity metals such as aluminum and copper,
pricing these materials out of the reach of many home
machinists, and the tacit approval of the destruction of the
domestic US machine tools industry (apparently used as a
“bargaining chip” given away during trade negotiations),
government now impacts every aspect of metal working,
including parts washing and waste oil disposal. Given the
current governmental paranoia [where's Joe McCarthy now that
we need him?) about “terrorism” is not far fetched that
legislation will be introduced to require licensure of all
home shop machinists and registration of all machine tools
(for an annual fee) to prevent their being used to construct
“infernal devices,” as there is no limit to legislative
overreach (and stupidity), now that the U.S. Constitution is
a piece of paper.

Where this goes “off the rails” is when aspects of
government not directly impacting metalworkers and
metalworking are posted to AMC or RCM, without at least an
OT in the subject line.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

" wrote:


Ed Huntress

So you are saying that some political postings are on topic?

Don't you think the question of whether the US will grow its
manufacturing sector or whether it will continue to export
manufacturing jobs is relevant topic?

On Sep 10, 4:11*pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:
" wrote:
Ed Huntress

So you are saying that some political postings are on topic?

Don't you think the question of whether the US will grow its
manufacturing sector or whether it will continue to export
*manufacturing jobs is relevant topic?

You do realize that this is RCM. And the R stands for recreation. So
no I do not think that is a relevant topic.

Dan

" wrote:

On Sep 10, 4:11 pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:
" wrote:
Ed Huntress

So you are saying that some political postings are on topic?

Don't you think the question of whether the US will grow its
manufacturing sector or whether it will continue to export
manufacturing jobs is relevant topic?

You do realize that this is RCM. And the R stands for recreation. So
no I do not think that is a relevant topic.


Well, Good luck with your recreational metalworking when
all the manufacturing has left.

"James Waldby" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 09:34:43 -0400, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Pinstripe Sniper" wrote ...
Doug Miller wrote:
Killfiling Gunner Asch, Ed Huntress, and Dave Smithers ("Hawke") will
remove the majority of the "political garbage" while deleting very
little actual metalworking content.

LOL Huntress? Sheeee-et, I'd pay to read his stuff. He reminds me of
James Fallows. = COMPLIMENT
...
That's very kind of you, Sniper. I think that Doug just doesn't like my
politics. d8-)

It doesn't matter whether he likes your politics or not, politics
are off-topic in r.c.m. I think we all lose and no one gains
anything when politics are discussed in r.c.m. Why should those
of us who are interested in metalworking have to filter out 3/4 or
more of the posts here to get to what we are interested in?

--
jiw

And why the f*** do they categorize the newspaper the way they do? I want
the personal want ads, the obituaries, the gardening section, and the
important **** in the first two pages.

Steve

"jim" "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote in message
...


" wrote:

On Sep 10, 4:11 pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:
" wrote:
Ed Huntress

So you are saying that some political postings are on topic?

Don't you think the question of whether the US will grow its
manufacturing sector or whether it will continue to export
manufacturing jobs is relevant topic?

You do realize that this is RCM. And the R stands for recreation. So
no I do not think that is a relevant topic.


Well, Good luck with your recreational metalworking when
all the manufacturing has left.

Dan has a point, but it's also true that many of the people here do some, or
a lot, of commercial metalworking. Some are commercial job-shop owners or
product manufacturers. Issues relating to the state of US manufacturing have
always been an issue on RCM, at least for the ten years I've been here.

But don't think that US manufacturing is leaving. What's "left" is the jobs.
The dollar volume of US manufacturing continues to climb (you know how to
find the graphs and tables from the St. Louis Fed and others), and our
exports are substantial -- $1.29 trillion in exported goods, versus $1.98 in
imported goods in 2010. Our manufacturing has narrowed to the higher end and
to later stages of assembly, but the total quantity of it is greater than
ever.

The key is that manufacturing has had productivity improvements at a rate
close to twice that of the US economy as a whole for over 20 years; around
4% annually. It's eaten into the manufacturing jobs, and those that remain
require much more education than they used to. So it is a serious economic
problem but most of it is the result of a combination of productivity
improvements and competition from low-wage countries for the lower-end work,
especially consumer products. This is a structural issue and no amount of
wishful thinking will change it.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sep 10, 7:50*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Dan has a point, but it's also true that many of the people here do some, or
a lot, of commercial metalworking. Some are commercial job-shop owners or
product manufacturers. Issues relating to the state of US manufacturing have
always been an issue on RCM, at least for the ten years I've been here.


Ed Huntress

I really do not mind posts about commercial metalworking. The people
doing commercial metalworking often post something that relates to
metalworking in general including hobby metalworking.

I do mind that people that never post anything about how to do some
sort of metalworking, post so much that have absolutely nothing to do
with metalworking.

Dan

Dan

On Sep 10, 7:20*pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:

You do realize that this is RCM. *And the R stands for recreation. *So
no I do not think that is a relevant topic.

Well, Good luck with your recreational metalworking when
all the manufacturing has left.

Why don't you post about some of the recreational metalworking that
you have done?


Dan

" wrote:


Why don't you post about some of the recreational metalworking that
you have done?


Because I interpret the meaning of "recreational"
to be the discussions on Usenet
My involvement with metalworking is not recreational.

Ed Huntress wrote:


But don't think that US manufacturing is leaving. What's "left" is the jobs.
The dollar volume of US manufacturing continues to climb (you know how to
find the graphs and tables from the St. Louis Fed and others), and our
exports are substantial -- $1.29 trillion in exported goods, versus $1.98 in
imported goods in 2010. Our manufacturing has narrowed to the higher end and
to later stages of assembly, but the total quantity of it is greater than
ever.

I agree, What has left are the jobs - so far.
But that is really a death knell for manufacturing.
it has left the nation's blue collar males adrift
The social consequences are already producing economic
consequences and there will be more down the line
The best engineers used to come from the
brightest children of blue collar workers.
What kind of engineer do you think you will get from
the children of accountants?

The "narrowed to the higher end" manufacturing has been
cherry picking from a large over hang of skilled workers
but that is only a temporary luxury.
In the future there will be no pool of skilled workers to
cherry pick.
Nor will there be a pool of workers to call on
when the balances shift and
the rest of the world is no longer as interested in
trading IOU's for goods
(yeah I know you think it hasn't happened in 30 years
so that means it can't ever happen)



The key is that manufacturing has had productivity improvements at a rate
close to twice that of the US economy as a whole for over 20 years; around
4% annually.

A lot of that is smoke and mirrors.
Accounting tricks really.
I know two trained engineers that are working
as tempo's and there are thousands of less skilled workers that
doing manufacturing work as temporary employees
Why?
The whole purpose is to make it look like the
company is squeezing much more work out of its employees
since there is so much work being done with so little payroll.


It's eaten into the manufacturing jobs, and those that remain
require much more education than they used to. So it is a serious economic
problem but most of it is the result of a combination of productivity
improvements and competition from low-wage countries for the lower-end work,
especially consumer products.

US manufacturing jobs are taxed at 15%-30%.
Whereas the labor component of goods made abroad are often taxed at 0%
That is a huge cost dis-advantage to US manufacturing labor

-jim





This is a structural issue and no amount of
wishful thinking will change it.

--
Ed Huntress

"jim" "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote in message
...


Ed Huntress wrote:


But don't think that US manufacturing is leaving. What's "left" is the
jobs.
The dollar volume of US manufacturing continues to climb (you know how to
find the graphs and tables from the St. Louis Fed and others), and our
exports are substantial -- $1.29 trillion in exported goods, versus $1.98
in
imported goods in 2010. Our manufacturing has narrowed to the higher end
and
to later stages of assembly, but the total quantity of it is greater than
ever.

I agree, What has left are the jobs - so far.
But that is really a death knell for manufacturing.
it has left the nation's blue collar males adrift
The social consequences are already producing economic
consequences and there will be more down the line
The best engineers used to come from the
brightest children of blue collar workers.
What kind of engineer do you think you will get from
the children of accountants?

The "narrowed to the higher end" manufacturing has been
cherry picking from a large over hang of skilled workers
but that is only a temporary luxury.
In the future there will be no pool of skilled workers to
cherry pick.
Nor will there be a pool of workers to call on
when the balances shift and
the rest of the world is no longer as interested in
trading IOU's for goods
(yeah I know you think it hasn't happened in 30 years
so that means it can't ever happen)



The key is that manufacturing has had productivity improvements at a rate
close to twice that of the US economy as a whole for over 20 years;
around
4% annually.

A lot of that is smoke and mirrors.
Accounting tricks really.

No, most of it is real, Jim. I've been reporting on it since 1974, and I've
watched it happen before my eyes.


I know two trained engineers that are working
as tempo's and there are thousands of less skilled workers that
doing manufacturing work as temporary employees
Why?
The whole purpose is to make it look like the
company is squeezing much more work out of its employees
since there is so much work being done with so little payroll.


It's eaten into the manufacturing jobs, and those that remain
require much more education than they used to. So it is a serious
economic
problem but most of it is the result of a combination of productivity
improvements and competition from low-wage countries for the lower-end
work,
especially consumer products.

US manufacturing jobs are taxed at 15%-30%.
Whereas the labor component of goods made abroad are often taxed at 0%

I'm not following you. WHO are you saying is taxed at 15% - 30%? Individual
workers? If so, that's true, but where are they taxed at 0%?

--
Ed Huntress


That is a huge cost dis-advantage to US manufacturing labor

-jim





This is a structural issue and no amount of
wishful thinking will change it.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

The key is that manufacturing has had productivity improvements at a rate
close to twice that of the US economy as a whole for over 20 years;
around
4% annually.

A lot of that is smoke and mirrors.
Accounting tricks really.

No, most of it is real, Jim. I've been reporting on it since 1974, and I've
watched it happen before my eyes.

Well good. If you are the expert then tell me how
many of the workers out on floor in a typical manufacturing facility
are employees working for temp agencies?
And we are not talking just temporary employees.
Many of the employees in manufacturing from temp agencies
work the same job at the same facility for years.

And how many employees used to have jobs that are now
out-sourced to private companies?
How much of the work that used to be done by employees
of the manufacturer is now out-sourced to private contractors?
Everything from accountants, engineers, secretaries, custodians,
maintenance, food service employees used to be counted as
manufacturing jobs. The workers are still there - they just
aren't counted as part of the workforce any more.

I have been in manufacturing facilities where 3/4 of the
workers in that facility are not on the company payroll.



I know two trained engineers that are working
as tempo's and there are thousands of less skilled workers that
doing manufacturing work as temporary employees
Why?
The whole purpose is to make it look like the
company is squeezing much more work out of its employees
since there is so much work being done with so little payroll.


It's eaten into the manufacturing jobs, and those that remain
require much more education than they used to. So it is a serious
economic
problem but most of it is the result of a combination of productivity
improvements and competition from low-wage countries for the lower-end
work,
especially consumer products.

US manufacturing jobs are taxed at 15%-30%.
Whereas the labor component of goods made abroad are often taxed at 0%

I'm not following you. WHO are you saying is taxed at 15% - 30%? Individual
workers? If so, that's true, but where are they taxed at 0%?

Most places in the world the lower skilled wages have no tax. Even in
Canada
they have progressive taxation so the lowest wage jobs are taxed at
something
like 3% for a full time employee
In the US it starts at 15% no matter how little the worker makes
It is no wonder that products that involve some low paying jobs
are disappearing.



--
Ed Huntress

That is a huge cost dis-advantage to US manufacturing labor

-jim





This is a structural issue and no amount of
wishful thinking will change it.

--
Ed Huntress

"jim" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

The key is that manufacturing has had productivity improvements at a
rate
close to twice that of the US economy as a whole for over 20 years;
around
4% annually.

A lot of that is smoke and mirrors.
Accounting tricks really.

No, most of it is real, Jim. I've been reporting on it since 1974, and
I've
watched it happen before my eyes.

Well good. If you are the expert then tell me how
many of the workers out on floor in a typical manufacturing facility
are employees working for temp agencies?


It's something like 10% - 12% of the shop-floor workforce. I don't have
current figures. When I was reporting on it, the number was around 900,000,
which had the effect of increasing the apparent productivity by 0.4% per
year. That probably was the greatest effect in recent history, measured in
the early 2000s.

But that was during the period that manufacturers sharply expanded their
temporary workforce. Once they establish a higher level of temporary
employees, the actual number has no further effect on rates of productivity.
Productivity only changes from thise source when you change the percentage
of temporary workers.


And we are not talking just temporary employees.
Many of the employees in manufacturing from temp agencies
work the same job at the same facility for years.

They're counted as temps, however, in employment figures.


And how many employees used to have jobs that are now
out-sourced to private companies?
How much of the work that used to be done by employees
of the manufacturer is now out-sourced to private contractors?

It doesn't matter. If it's manufacturing work, the output shows up in the
figures from the contradicting companies.


Everything from accountants, engineers, secretaries, custodians,
maintenance, food service employees used to be counted as
manufacturing jobs.

Not in most counts. BLS and similar-quality sources separate
production/non-supervisory positions from management and non-production jobs
in manufacturing. You just have to know what you're looking at, and stories
in the press may require some extra checking to find out.

The workers are still there - they just
aren't counted as part of the workforce any more.

They're still part of the workforce, as they always were. They never were
counted as part of the manufacturing workforce in production-worker counts.


I have been in manufacturing facilities where 3/4 of the
workers in that facility are not on the company payroll.

A typical number in US manufacturing it 10% - 12%.




I know two trained engineers that are working
as tempo's and there are thousands of less skilled workers that
doing manufacturing work as temporary employees
Why?
The whole purpose is to make it look like the
company is squeezing much more work out of its employees
since there is so much work being done with so little payroll.


It's eaten into the manufacturing jobs, and those that remain
require much more education than they used to. So it is a serious
economic
problem but most of it is the result of a combination of productivity
improvements and competition from low-wage countries for the lower-end
work,
especially consumer products.

US manufacturing jobs are taxed at 15%-30%.
Whereas the labor component of goods made abroad are often taxed at 0%

I'm not following you. WHO are you saying is taxed at 15% - 30%?
Individual
workers? If so, that's true, but where are they taxed at 0%?

Most places in the world the lower skilled wages have no tax. Even in
Canada
they have progressive taxation so the lowest wage jobs are taxed at
something
like 3% for a full time employee
In the US it starts at 15% no matter how little the worker makes
It is no wonder that products that involve some low paying jobs
are disappearing.

The tax bracket in Canada is 5% higher than the US, up to $34,500 of taxable
income. (15% up to $41,500 in Canada; 10% up to $8,500 in the US; 15% from
$8,500 to $34,500 in the US). And then Canada's Provincial/Territorial
income tax adds roughly another 5% - 11% on top of that.

I don't think you'll find the answers there.

--
Ed Huntress





--
Ed Huntress

That is a huge cost dis-advantage to US manufacturing labor

-jim





This is a structural issue and no amount of
wishful thinking will change it.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"jim" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

The key is that manufacturing has had productivity improvements at a
rate
close to twice that of the US economy as a whole for over 20 years;
around
4% annually.

A lot of that is smoke and mirrors.
Accounting tricks really.

No, most of it is real, Jim. I've been reporting on it since 1974, and
I've
watched it happen before my eyes.

Well good. If you are the expert then tell me how
many of the workers out on floor in a typical manufacturing facility
are employees working for temp agencies?


It's something like 10% - 12% of the shop-floor workforce. I don't have
current figures. When I was reporting on it, the number was around
900,000, which had the effect of increasing the apparent productivity by
0.4% per year. That probably was the greatest effect in recent history,
measured in the early 2000s.

But that was during the period that manufacturers sharply expanded their
temporary workforce. Once they establish a higher level of temporary
employees, the actual number has no further effect on rates of
productivity. Productivity only changes from thise source when you change
the percentage of temporary workers.


And we are not talking just temporary employees.
Many of the employees in manufacturing from temp agencies
work the same job at the same facility for years.

They're counted as temps, however, in employment figures.


And how many employees used to have jobs that are now
out-sourced to private companies?
How much of the work that used to be done by employees
of the manufacturer is now out-sourced to private contractors?

It doesn't matter. If it's manufacturing work, the output shows up in the
figures from the contradicting companies.

That's *contracting* companies.

--
Ed Huntress



Everything from accountants, engineers, secretaries, custodians,
maintenance, food service employees used to be counted as
manufacturing jobs.

Not in most counts. BLS and similar-quality sources separate
production/non-supervisory positions from management and non-production
jobs in manufacturing. You just have to know what you're looking at, and
stories in the press may require some extra checking to find out.

The workers are still there - they just
aren't counted as part of the workforce any more.

They're still part of the workforce, as they always were. They never were
counted as part of the manufacturing workforce in production-worker
counts.


I have been in manufacturing facilities where 3/4 of the
workers in that facility are not on the company payroll.

A typical number in US manufacturing it 10% - 12%.




I know two trained engineers that are working
as tempo's and there are thousands of less skilled workers that
doing manufacturing work as temporary employees
Why?
The whole purpose is to make it look like the
company is squeezing much more work out of its employees
since there is so much work being done with so little payroll.


It's eaten into the manufacturing jobs, and those that remain
require much more education than they used to. So it is a serious
economic
problem but most of it is the result of a combination of productivity
improvements and competition from low-wage countries for the
lower-end
work,
especially consumer products.

US manufacturing jobs are taxed at 15%-30%.
Whereas the labor component of goods made abroad are often taxed at 0%

I'm not following you. WHO are you saying is taxed at 15% - 30%?
Individual
workers? If so, that's true, but where are they taxed at 0%?

Most places in the world the lower skilled wages have no tax. Even in
Canada
they have progressive taxation so the lowest wage jobs are taxed at
something
like 3% for a full time employee
In the US it starts at 15% no matter how little the worker makes
It is no wonder that products that involve some low paying jobs
are disappearing.

The tax bracket in Canada is 5% higher than the US, up to $34,500 of
taxable income. (15% up to $41,500 in Canada; 10% up to $8,500 in the US;
15% from $8,500 to $34,500 in the US). And then Canada's
Provincial/Territorial income tax adds roughly another 5% - 11% on top of
that.

I don't think you'll find the answers there.

--
Ed Huntress





--
Ed Huntress

That is a huge cost dis-advantage to US manufacturing labor

-jim





This is a structural issue and no amount of
wishful thinking will change it.

--
Ed Huntress