A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

With or without the tooling? I wouldn't give much more than scrap if
no tooling. These are pretty low demand machines. Industry don't want
them at all, not a real high demand for hobbyists.

Shop eBay for tooling value, worth more than the machine.

Just a data point, I gave $2000 for a fully tooled (enough for two
machines) Cincinatti monoset a while back. This is better than a #2
cause its more versatile. But about the same value.

Karl

On 2011-07-25, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

With or without the tooling? I wouldn't give much more than scrap if
no tooling. These are pretty low demand machines. Industry don't want
them at all, not a real high demand for hobbyists.

Shop eBay for tooling value, worth more than the machine.

Just a data point, I gave $2000 for a fully tooled (enough for two
machines) Cincinatti monoset a while back. This is better than a #2
cause its more versatile. But about the same value.

Karl


OK, I got it, I will go and see what is the situation.

i

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

Ive bought and sold a few over the last couple years...and they are
getting harder and harder to sell. The first couple sold for $2500
The second bunch went for $1500....

The last batch sold for $800....

See a trend here?

As for condition...that can be quite an excercise in using .0001 dial
indicators and magnetic bases and........

The reason you dont see any actual sales..is that most shops are now
using carbide insert tooling and there are far far far fewer shops still
in business.

A T&C grinder is a great thing to have, unless you are engaged in
production machining..and insert tooling is far cheaper than having your
tools ground.

Custom grinds...are becoming harder to justify as well, particularly in
milling as insert milling cutters are available for just about any sort
of cut you might do. Bout the only thing I see ground these days is
cheap form tools used in second ops lathes..by shops too small to buy
cnc machines.

Ive got a KO Lee B300, with every accessory they made. And it was
given to me by a big production shop that found it to be in their way.
Insert tooling is all they use.
Excellent shape and a joy to use.
About 3 times a year.

Shrug



Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

Gunner Asch on Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:03:53 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

Ive bought and sold a few over the last couple years...and they are
getting harder and harder to sell. The first couple sold for $2500
The second bunch went for $1500....

The last batch sold for $800....

See a trend here?

As for condition...that can be quite an excercise in using .0001 dial
indicators and magnetic bases and........

The reason you dont see any actual sales..is that most shops are now
using carbide insert tooling and there are far far far fewer shops still
in business.

A T&C grinder is a great thing to have, unless you are engaged in
production machining..and insert tooling is far cheaper than having your
tools ground.

Custom grinds...are becoming harder to justify as well, particularly in
milling as insert milling cutters are available for just about any sort
of cut you might do. Bout the only thing I see ground these days is
cheap form tools used in second ops lathes..by shops too small to buy
cnc machines.

Ive got a KO Lee B300, with every accessory they made. And it was
given to me by a big production shop that found it to be in their way.
Insert tooling is all they use.
Excellent shape and a joy to use.
About 3 times a year.

Question I have is - how long to regrind a tool, vs swap out
inserts? I seem to remember that it could be done in under 15
minutes, and most of that was spent walking to the tool crib and back.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Well, here's an update. I did not get the Cincinnati T&C grinder. I
just decided that I do not want the hassle of dealing with these 1000
lbs hippos.

I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Also a shipload of other stuff, totaling $300. My truck was full.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

I want to keep this CutterMaster for myself and learn how to sharpen
end mills. I will also see which Darex to keep, my current one or this
one.

i

"Ignoramus2004" wrote in message
...
Well, here's an update. I did not get the Cincinnati T&C grinder. I
just decided that I do not want the hassle of dealing with these 1000
lbs hippos.

I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Also a shipload of other stuff, totaling $300. My truck was full.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

I want to keep this CutterMaster for myself and learn how to sharpen
end mills. I will also see which Darex to keep, my current one or this
one.

i

You need a bigger truck.

Best Regards
Tom.

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

A couple of years ago, someone was closing his grinding shop and
offered to sell me three Cinci #2's for around $500 apiece tooled. The
drive was too far and my Toyota Tacoma too underpowered to haul that
sized trailer, so I passed on that deal. Glad I did. The Cinci's
are huge. Those things are really white elephants because of their
weight / size. I have two KO Lees and they're nice sized grinders.
The KO Lees come in three sizes - small (300 series), medium (600 &
900 series) and large (6000 series) Similar to what I'm reading
between the lines on what you're thinking, in retirement, not too many
years in the future for me, I could see potting around selling
resharpened endmills to other hobby machinists. One of my machines
came with a Weldon endmill grinding fixture.

What Gunner or someone else said about there not being many buyers
right now is true. I doubt I'd break even on my two unless I sold
some of the tooling separately, so that each machine came with only
minimal tooling. I bought with the idea that when they're gone from
industry in general, they'll be somewhat rare and possibly more
desireable, and over time inflation will give me the dollars back, if
not the entire purchasing power of the initial cost.

Recent Craigslist prices for KO Lees in my region have been running
from $950 to $1500. I doubt either sold. I know the one at $950
didn't because I tried to buy some tooling from the seller about 6
weeks after the posting. It was still around and the guy decided to
just hang onto it rather than sell it at what he considered to be a
giveaway price. My intuition is that they should sell for around $450
with some tooling. A few hundred more if they come with tooling that
you could actually do something with, like the end mill grinding
fixture. I bought my second one this spring for $650, but it came
with a complete second grinding head for a 6000 series machine, plus a
little tooling. Cleaning up the second head is a work in progress.

Iggy, contact me off list. If you're seeing stuff like that come up
for sale in your area, maybe you'll run across some tooling I'd like
to buy. I can give you a photographic shopping list to keep your eyes
peeled for.

RWL

On 2011-07-26, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

A couple of years ago, someone was closing his grinding shop and
offered to sell me three Cinci #2's for around $500 apiece tooled. The
drive was too far and my Toyota Tacoma too underpowered to haul that
sized trailer, so I passed on that deal. Glad I did. The Cinci's
are huge. Those things are really white elephants because of their
weight / size. I have two KO Lees and they're nice sized grinders.
The KO Lees come in three sizes - small (300 series), medium (600 &
900 series) and large (6000 series) Similar to what I'm reading
between the lines on what you're thinking, in retirement, not too many
years in the future for me, I could see potting around selling
resharpened endmills to other hobby machinists. One of my machines
came with a Weldon endmill grinding fixture.

What Gunner or someone else said about there not being many buyers
right now is true. I doubt I'd break even on my two unless I sold
some of the tooling separately, so that each machine came with only
minimal tooling. I bought with the idea that when they're gone from
industry in general, they'll be somewhat rare and possibly more
desireable, and over time inflation will give me the dollars back, if
not the entire purchasing power of the initial cost.

Recent Craigslist prices for KO Lees in my region have been running
from $950 to $1500. I doubt either sold. I know the one at $950
didn't because I tried to buy some tooling from the seller about 6
weeks after the posting. It was still around and the guy decided to
just hang onto it rather than sell it at what he considered to be a
giveaway price. My intuition is that they should sell for around $450
with some tooling. A few hundred more if they come with tooling that
you could actually do something with, like the end mill grinding
fixture. I bought my second one this spring for $650, but it came
with a complete second grinding head for a 6000 series machine, plus a
little tooling. Cleaning up the second head is a work in progress.

Iggy, contact me off list. If you're seeing stuff like that come up
for sale in your area, maybe you'll run across some tooling I'd like
to buy. I can give you a photographic shopping list to keep your eyes
peeled for.

RWL


I can buy a SHIPLOAD of T&C grinder tooling. I was looking at those
piles that the guy had and I have no clue. Email pictures of you want
to my userid ichudov at domain gmail dot com.

I will go there again.

i

On 2011-07-26, azotic wrote:

"Ignoramus2004" wrote in message
...
Well, here's an update. I did not get the Cincinnati T&C grinder. I
just decided that I do not want the hassle of dealing with these 1000
lbs hippos.

I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Also a shipload of other stuff, totaling $300. My truck was full.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

I want to keep this CutterMaster for myself and learn how to sharpen
end mills. I will also see which Darex to keep, my current one or this
one.

i

You need a bigger truck.

Best Regards
Tom.


Yes, should have bought a diesel long bed.

i

I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink


Nice score on the Cuttermaster. I see those for sale in Craigslist
periodically. The asking price is typically $1100. They're small
enough and new enough that they may actually sell for close to that
price, although a regular T&C grinder is more versatile.

I think that's a borazon wheel on your end mill grinder. Those things
are expensive. Unlike the diamond wheels that the Chinese have
copied, I don't think they're duplicating the borazon wheels yet. At
least I didn't spot any on ebay. The coating on them is pretty thin.
Use a standard vitreous wheel to do your learning in case you learn
the hard way. I haven't mounted my borazon wheel yet.

RWL

On 2011-07-26, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane wrote:


I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink


Nice score on the Cuttermaster. I see those for sale in Craigslist
periodically. The asking price is typically $1100. They're small
enough and new enough that they may actually sell for close to that
price, although a regular T&C grinder is more versatile.

I think that's a borazon wheel on your end mill grinder. Those things
are expensive. Unlike the diamond wheels that the Chinese have
copied, I don't think they're duplicating the borazon wheels yet. At
least I didn't spot any on ebay. The coating on them is pretty thin.
Use a standard vitreous wheel to do your learning in case you learn
the hard way. I haven't mounted my borazon wheel yet.

RWL


I gather that you do have a Cuttermaster. If so, can you shoot a
picture of it assembled correctly? I would appreciate this greatly.

Thanks

i

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 16:25:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:03:53 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

Ive bought and sold a few over the last couple years...and they are
getting harder and harder to sell. The first couple sold for $2500
The second bunch went for $1500....

The last batch sold for $800....

See a trend here?

As for condition...that can be quite an excercise in using .0001 dial
indicators and magnetic bases and........

The reason you dont see any actual sales..is that most shops are now
using carbide insert tooling and there are far far far fewer shops still
in business.

A T&C grinder is a great thing to have, unless you are engaged in
production machining..and insert tooling is far cheaper than having your
tools ground.

Custom grinds...are becoming harder to justify as well, particularly in
milling as insert milling cutters are available for just about any sort
of cut you might do. Bout the only thing I see ground these days is
cheap form tools used in second ops lathes..by shops too small to buy
cnc machines.

Ive got a KO Lee B300, with every accessory they made. And it was
given to me by a big production shop that found it to be in their way.
Insert tooling is all they use.
Excellent shape and a joy to use.
About 3 times a year.

Question I have is - how long to regrind a tool, vs swap out
inserts? I seem to remember that it could be done in under 15
minutes, and most of that was spent walking to the tool crib and back.

Regrinding a tool takes 5-15 minutes.

Sticking in inserts takes 3.
At most.

And the inserts are all the same..and dont reduce the diameter of the
tool, where grinding does..and requires offset changes.

And inserts dont require a man to be on the payroll who does nothing but
grind tools.

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 19:55:14 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

Well, here's an update. I did not get the Cincinnati T&C grinder. I
just decided that I do not want the hassle of dealing with these 1000
lbs hippos.

I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Also a shipload of other stuff, totaling $300. My truck was full.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

I want to keep this CutterMaster for myself and learn how to sharpen
end mills. I will also see which Darex to keep, my current one or this
one.

i

The Cuttermaster is a very good tool, once you learn how to use it. But
they will primarily only grind the face of a mill, rather than the
sides, unless you have the (air floating) end mill holder.

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 22:34:07 -0400, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at
PTD dot NET wrote:



I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink


Nice score on the Cuttermaster. I see those for sale in Craigslist
periodically. The asking price is typically $1100. They're small
enough and new enough that they may actually sell for close to that
price, although a regular T&C grinder is more versatile.

I think that's a borazon wheel on your end mill grinder. Those things
are expensive. Unlike the diamond wheels that the Chinese have
copied, I don't think they're duplicating the borazon wheels yet. At
least I didn't spot any on ebay. The coating on them is pretty thin.
Use a standard vitreous wheel to do your learning in case you learn
the hard way. I haven't mounted my borazon wheel yet.

RWL

What welder is behind the Cuttermaster? Looks like a Miller DialArc 250

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

Ive bought and sold a few over the last couple years...and they are
getting harder and harder to sell. The first couple sold for $2500
The second bunch went for $1500....

The last batch sold for $800....

See a trend here?

As for condition...that can be quite an excercise in using .0001 dial
indicators and magnetic bases and........

The reason you dont see any actual sales..is that most shops are now
using carbide insert tooling and there are far far far fewer shops still
in business.

A T&C grinder is a great thing to have, unless you are engaged in
production machining..and insert tooling is far cheaper than having your
tools ground.

Custom grinds...are becoming harder to justify as well, particularly in
milling as insert milling cutters are available for just about any sort
of cut you might do. Bout the only thing I see ground these days is
cheap form tools used in second ops lathes..by shops too small to buy
cnc machines.

Ive got a KO Lee B300, with every accessory they made. And it was
given to me by a big production shop that found it to be in their way.
Insert tooling is all they use.
Excellent shape and a joy to use.
About 3 times a year.

Shrug



Gunner

In addition to Gunner's comments, a T&C grinder, as has already been
mentioned by Karl, borders on being worthless without extensive tooling.
With one, assuming one understands proper operation (not easily learned
because precious little is in print) a great deal can be accomplished, in
particular for the home shop type, who often lacks the necessary skills to
grind proper tools for various operations on the lathe and/or mill. They
demand a reasonable amount of room, and may be considered wasteful for the
guy with a small shop, limited in space.

Value?
I purchased one last fall, reasonable condition, partially tooled, but only
the center set is complete. The indexing head lacks the indexing pin
device, and the air spindle (for sharpening the periphery of end mills) is
missing components. No vice. I paid $600. I feel it was a reasonable
price. They are exceedingly difficult to sell, for the reasons mentioned
by Gunner----plus precious few really understand their (proper) operation.
Most machinists that have the required skills were trained on the job by
talented mentors. They are a classic example of a machine that no longer
is useful in modern machine shops. Shades of shapers of long ago.

Harold

On 2011-07-26, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 22:34:07 -0400, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at
PTD dot NET wrote:



I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink


Nice score on the Cuttermaster. I see those for sale in Craigslist
periodically. The asking price is typically $1100. They're small
enough and new enough that they may actually sell for close to that
price, although a regular T&C grinder is more versatile.

I think that's a borazon wheel on your end mill grinder. Those things
are expensive. Unlike the diamond wheels that the Chinese have
copied, I don't think they're duplicating the borazon wheels yet. At
least I didn't spot any on ebay. The coating on them is pretty thin.
Use a standard vitreous wheel to do your learning in case you learn
the hard way. I haven't mounted my borazon wheel yet.

RWL

What welder is behind the Cuttermaster? Looks like a Miller DialArc 250

This is a Miller EconoTwin.

i

On 2011-07-26, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 19:55:14 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

Well, here's an update. I did not get the Cincinnati T&C grinder. I
just decided that I do not want the hassle of dealing with these 1000
lbs hippos.

I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Also a shipload of other stuff, totaling $300. My truck was full.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

I want to keep this CutterMaster for myself and learn how to sharpen
end mills. I will also see which Darex to keep, my current one or this
one.

i

The Cuttermaster is a very good tool, once you learn how to use it. But
they will primarily only grind the face of a mill, rather than the
sides, unless you have the (air floating) end mill holder.


Gunner, I do have an air floating end mill holder, yes. It takes 5C
collets. I do not have other holders, though.

i

On 2011-07-26, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

Ive bought and sold a few over the last couple years...and they are
getting harder and harder to sell. The first couple sold for $2500
The second bunch went for $1500....

The last batch sold for $800....

See a trend here?

As for condition...that can be quite an excercise in using .0001 dial
indicators and magnetic bases and........

The reason you dont see any actual sales..is that most shops are now
using carbide insert tooling and there are far far far fewer shops still
in business.

A T&C grinder is a great thing to have, unless you are engaged in
production machining..and insert tooling is far cheaper than having your
tools ground.

Custom grinds...are becoming harder to justify as well, particularly in
milling as insert milling cutters are available for just about any sort
of cut you might do. Bout the only thing I see ground these days is
cheap form tools used in second ops lathes..by shops too small to buy
cnc machines.

Ive got a KO Lee B300, with every accessory they made. And it was
given to me by a big production shop that found it to be in their way.
Insert tooling is all they use.
Excellent shape and a joy to use.
About 3 times a year.

Shrug



Gunner

In addition to Gunner's comments, a T&C grinder, as has already been
mentioned by Karl, borders on being worthless without extensive tooling.
With one, assuming one understands proper operation (not easily learned
because precious little is in print) a great deal can be accomplished, in
particular for the home shop type, who often lacks the necessary skills to
grind proper tools for various operations on the lathe and/or mill. They
demand a reasonable amount of room, and may be considered wasteful for the
guy with a small shop, limited in space.

Value?
I purchased one last fall, reasonable condition, partially tooled, but only
the center set is complete. The indexing head lacks the indexing pin
device, and the air spindle (for sharpening the periphery of end mills) is
missing components. No vice. I paid $600. I feel it was a reasonable
price. They are exceedingly difficult to sell, for the reasons mentioned
by Gunner----plus precious few really understand their (proper) operation.
Most machinists that have the required skills were trained on the job by
talented mentors. They are a classic example of a machine that no longer
is useful in modern machine shops. Shades of shapers of long ago.

Harold


Harold, after looking at them, I agree. The pro T&C sharpening
businesses run CNC grinders nowadays.

I mean, the business that I visited yesterday IS a T&C grinding
company. They know how to run those Cincinnatis. And yet they are
dumping them for nothing.

i

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:36:06 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

On 2011-07-26, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane wrote:

Nice score on the Cuttermaster. I see those for sale in Craigslist
periodically. The asking price is typically $1100. They're small
enough and new enough that they may actually sell for close to that
price, although a regular T&C grinder is more versatile.

I think that's a borazon wheel on your end mill grinder.


RWL


I gather that you do have a Cuttermaster. If so, can you shoot a
picture of it assembled correctly? I would appreciate this greatly.

Thanks

i

I don't have a Cuttermaster. Only KO Lee's. You probably need to
scrounge around for a manual for it. Check the grinding groups on
Yahoo. Someone there is likely to have one, or you might find
pictures of one in the photos section.

RWL

On Jul 25, 4:03*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004

wrote:
A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

Ive bought and sold a few over the last couple years...and they are
getting harder and harder to sell. The first couple sold for $2500
The second bunch went for $1500....

The last batch sold for $800....

See a trend here?

As for condition...that can be quite an excercise in using .0001 dial
indicators and magnetic bases and........

The reason you dont see any actual sales..is that most shops are now
using carbide insert tooling and there are far far far fewer shops still
in business.

A T&C grinder is a great thing to have, unless you are engaged in
production machining..and insert tooling is far cheaper than having your
tools ground.

Custom grinds...are becoming harder to justify as well, particularly in
milling as insert milling cutters are available for just about any sort
of cut you might do. *Bout the only thing I see ground these days is
cheap form tools used in second ops lathes..by shops too small to buy
cnc machines.

Ive got a KO Lee B300, with every accessory they made. * And it was
given to me by a big production shop that found it to be in their way.
Insert tooling is all they use.
Excellent shape and a joy to use. *
About 3 times a year.

Shrug

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

Gummer...did you report those sales you made as income and pay Federal
and State taxes?

TMT

On Jul 25, 9:32*pm, Ignoramus2004
wrote:
On 2011-07-26, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane wrote:





On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

A couple of years ago, someone was closing his grinding shop and
offered to sell me three Cinci #2's for around $500 apiece tooled. The
drive was too far and my Toyota Tacoma too underpowered to haul that
sized trailer, so I passed on that deal. *Glad I did. * The Cinci's
are huge. *Those things are really white elephants because of their
weight / size. *I have two KO Lees and they're nice sized grinders.
The KO Lees come in three sizes - small (300 series), medium (600 &
900 series) and large (6000 series) *Similar to what I'm reading
between the lines on what you're thinking, in retirement, not too many
years in the future for me, I could see potting around selling
resharpened endmills to other hobby machinists. *One of my machines
came with a Weldon endmill grinding fixture.

What Gunner or someone else said about there not being many buyers
right now is true. *I doubt I'd break even on my two unless I sold
some of the tooling separately, so that each machine came with only
minimal tooling. *I bought with the idea that when they're gone from
industry in general, they'll be somewhat rare and possibly more
desireable, and over time inflation will give me the dollars back, if
not the entire purchasing power of the initial cost.

Recent Craigslist prices for KO Lees in my region have been running
from $950 to $1500. *I doubt either sold. *I know the one at $950
didn't because I tried to buy some tooling from the seller about 6
weeks after the posting. *It was still around and the guy decided to
just hang onto it rather than sell it at what he considered to be a
giveaway price. *My intuition is that they should sell for around $450
with some tooling. *A few hundred more if they come with tooling that
you could actually do something with, like the end mill grinding
fixture. *I bought my second one this spring for $650, but it came
with a complete second grinding head for a 6000 series machine, plus a
little tooling. *Cleaning up the second head is a work in progress.

Iggy, *contact me off list. *If you're seeing stuff like that come up
for sale in your area, maybe you'll run across some tooling I'd like
to buy. *I can give you a photographic shopping list to keep your eyes
peeled for.

RWL

I can buy a SHIPLOAD of T&C grinder tooling. I was looking at those
piles that the guy had and I have no clue. Email pictures of you want
to my userid ichudov at domain gmail dot com.

I will go there again.

i- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ig..the money is in the tooling...leave the machines for scrap.

TMT

Gunner Asch on Mon, 25 Jul 2011 23:30:15 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 16:25:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:03:53 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

Ive bought and sold a few over the last couple years...and they are
getting harder and harder to sell. The first couple sold for $2500
The second bunch went for $1500....

The last batch sold for $800....

See a trend here?

As for condition...that can be quite an excercise in using .0001 dial
indicators and magnetic bases and........

The reason you dont see any actual sales..is that most shops are now
using carbide insert tooling and there are far far far fewer shops still
in business.

A T&C grinder is a great thing to have, unless you are engaged in
production machining..and insert tooling is far cheaper than having your
tools ground.

Custom grinds...are becoming harder to justify as well, particularly in
milling as insert milling cutters are available for just about any sort
of cut you might do. Bout the only thing I see ground these days is
cheap form tools used in second ops lathes..by shops too small to buy
cnc machines.

Ive got a KO Lee B300, with every accessory they made. And it was
given to me by a big production shop that found it to be in their way.
Insert tooling is all they use.
Excellent shape and a joy to use.
About 3 times a year.

Question I have is - how long to regrind a tool, vs swap out
inserts? I seem to remember that it could be done in under 15
minutes, and most of that was spent walking to the tool crib and back.

Regrinding a tool takes 5-15 minutes.

Sticking in inserts takes 3.
At most.

That's what I thought. Most of the time was taken up in walking
over to the tool crib. Did provide an excuse to go outside (tool
crib was in the other building), get a cup of coffee.

And the inserts are all the same..and dont reduce the diameter of the
tool, where grinding does..and requires offset changes.

And inserts dont require a man to be on the payroll who does nothing but
grind tools.

Ayup. We had a guy who's full time job was "setting tools" -
proper inserts, then measuring them, so that the machine operator only
had to "insert tool, edit offsets" and back to the grind.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:18:14 -0500, Ignoramus7018
wrote:

On 2011-07-26, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

Ive bought and sold a few over the last couple years...and they are
getting harder and harder to sell. The first couple sold for $2500
The second bunch went for $1500....

The last batch sold for $800....

See a trend here?

As for condition...that can be quite an excercise in using .0001 dial
indicators and magnetic bases and........

The reason you dont see any actual sales..is that most shops are now
using carbide insert tooling and there are far far far fewer shops still
in business.

A T&C grinder is a great thing to have, unless you are engaged in
production machining..and insert tooling is far cheaper than having your
tools ground.

Custom grinds...are becoming harder to justify as well, particularly in
milling as insert milling cutters are available for just about any sort
of cut you might do. Bout the only thing I see ground these days is
cheap form tools used in second ops lathes..by shops too small to buy
cnc machines.

Ive got a KO Lee B300, with every accessory they made. And it was
given to me by a big production shop that found it to be in their way.
Insert tooling is all they use.
Excellent shape and a joy to use.
About 3 times a year.

Shrug



Gunner

In addition to Gunner's comments, a T&C grinder, as has already been
mentioned by Karl, borders on being worthless without extensive tooling.
With one, assuming one understands proper operation (not easily learned
because precious little is in print) a great deal can be accomplished, in
particular for the home shop type, who often lacks the necessary skills to
grind proper tools for various operations on the lathe and/or mill. They
demand a reasonable amount of room, and may be considered wasteful for the
guy with a small shop, limited in space.

Value?
I purchased one last fall, reasonable condition, partially tooled, but only
the center set is complete. The indexing head lacks the indexing pin
device, and the air spindle (for sharpening the periphery of end mills) is
missing components. No vice. I paid $600. I feel it was a reasonable
price. They are exceedingly difficult to sell, for the reasons mentioned
by Gunner----plus precious few really understand their (proper) operation.
Most machinists that have the required skills were trained on the job by
talented mentors. They are a classic example of a machine that no longer
is useful in modern machine shops. Shades of shapers of long ago.

Harold


Harold, after looking at them, I agree. The pro T&C sharpening
businesses run CNC grinders nowadays.

I mean, the business that I visited yesterday IS a T&C grinding
company. They know how to run those Cincinnatis. And yet they are
dumping them for nothing.

i

For those that still provide T&C grinding..the new CNC grinders make
life ever so much better and can provide rapid turn arounds for a
reasonable (depends) cost.

http://www.grinding.com/tool/pages/c...er_walter.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FImFWau8hM

http://www.rollomatic.ch/rollomatic-...-tool-grinder/

etc etc


--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

On Jul 26, 7:18*am, Ignoramus7018
wrote:
On 2011-07-26, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:







"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:59:50 -0500, Ignoramus2004
wrote:

A company is offering to sell me some Cincinnati #2 tool and cutter
grinders.

I looked on ebay and I see a lot of dreamers hoping to get a lot of
money for them, but no actual sales.

This is a little bit of a giveaway to the situation, but I want to ask
anyway, how much are those things worth?

Also, how can I ascertain their condition?

i

Ive bought and sold a few over the last couple years...and they are
getting harder and harder to sell. The first couple sold for $2500
The second bunch went for $1500....

The last batch sold for $800....

See a trend here?

As for condition...that can be quite an excercise in using .0001 dial
indicators and magnetic bases and........

The reason you dont see any actual sales..is that most shops are now
using carbide insert tooling and there are far far far fewer shops still
in business.

A T&C grinder is a great thing to have, unless you are engaged in
production machining..and insert tooling is far cheaper than having your
tools ground.

Custom grinds...are becoming harder to justify as well, particularly in
milling as insert milling cutters are available for just about any sort
of cut you might do. *Bout the only thing I see ground these days is
cheap form tools used in second ops lathes..by shops too small to buy
cnc machines.

Ive got a KO Lee B300, with every accessory they made. * And it was
given to me by a big production shop that found it to be in their way.
Insert tooling is all they use.
Excellent shape and a joy to use.
About 3 times a year.

Shrug

Gunner

In addition to Gunner's comments, a T&C grinder, as has already been
mentioned by Karl, borders on being worthless without extensive tooling..
With one, assuming one understands proper operation (not easily learned
because precious little is in print) a great deal can be accomplished, in
particular for the home shop type, who often lacks the necessary skills to
grind proper tools for various operations on the lathe and/or mill. * They
demand a reasonable amount of room, and may be considered wasteful for the
guy with a small shop, limited in space.

Value?
I purchased one last fall, reasonable condition, partially tooled, but only
the center set is complete. *The indexing head lacks the indexing pin
device, and the air spindle (for sharpening the periphery of end mills) is
missing components. * No vice. * I paid $600. * I feel it was a reasonable
price. * They are exceedingly difficult to sell, for the reasons mentioned
by Gunner----plus precious few really understand their (proper) operation.
Most machinists that have the required skills were trained on the job by
talented mentors. * They are a classic example of a machine that no longer
is useful in modern machine shops. *Shades of shapers of long ago.

Harold

Harold, after looking at them, I agree. The pro T&C sharpening
businesses run CNC grinders nowadays.

I mean, the business that I visited yesterday IS a T&C grinding
company. They know how to run those Cincinnatis. And yet they are
dumping them for nothing.

i- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They are dumping them because they are in the business of making
money...not holding on to junk thinking some sucker will overpay them
for the machines.

Ig...take the tooling and run....

TMT

On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:33:02 -0500, Ignoramus7018
wrote:



I will ask $150 for mine, and it comes with leads. I have never been a
"dreamer" and never asked for too much money.

i

Leads? Stick leads or TIG leads?

Gunner


stick leads


That..is a VERY FAIR price for a buyer. Thats cheaper than one finds a
used tombstone from Walmart.

Someone is going to get a very good deal!

Gunner

--
Maxim 12: A soft answer turneth away wrath.
Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

On 2011-07-27, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:33:02 -0500, Ignoramus7018
wrote:



I will ask $150 for mine, and it comes with leads. I have never been a
"dreamer" and never asked for too much money.

i

Leads? Stick leads or TIG leads?

Gunner


stick leads


That..is a VERY FAIR price for a buyer. Thats cheaper than one finds a
used tombstone from Walmart.

Someone is going to get a very good deal!

Thanks... I do what I can to help economic recovery...

i

"Ignoramus2004" wrote in message
...
On 2011-07-26, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane wrote:


I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink


Nice score on the Cuttermaster. I see those for sale in Craigslist
periodically. The asking price is typically $1100. They're small
enough and new enough that they may actually sell for close to that
price, although a regular T&C grinder is more versatile.

I think that's a borazon wheel on your end mill grinder. Those things
are expensive. Unlike the diamond wheels that the Chinese have
copied, I don't think they're duplicating the borazon wheels yet. At
least I didn't spot any on ebay. The coating on them is pretty thin.
Use a standard vitreous wheel to do your learning in case you learn
the hard way. I haven't mounted my borazon wheel yet.

RWL


I gather that you do have a Cuttermaster. If so, can you shoot a
picture of it assembled correctly? I would appreciate this greatly.

Thanks

i

I've got an Enco end mill sharpener from the 80's that looks very similar.
You've probably seen it before but I can send you pictures if you are
interested. That general style of grinder seems to be somewhat generic and
you may find several companies sold it, like Chevalier, KBC, etc. I found a
manual for mine for $25 from a company called Gromax and it appears to be
nearly an exact match so far as parts are concerned. Email me and I may be
able to found a clone manual for you from another source. Might not be an
exact match but some components should be the same as yours.

Did you get any tooling for it, like an air bearing?

Mike

On 2011-07-29, Mike Henry wrote:

"Ignoramus2004" wrote in message
...
On 2011-07-26, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane wrote:


I did, however, get a Darex drill grinder for $20 and a CutterMaster
end mill sharpener for $50.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink


Nice score on the Cuttermaster. I see those for sale in Craigslist
periodically. The asking price is typically $1100. They're small
enough and new enough that they may actually sell for close to that
price, although a regular T&C grinder is more versatile.

I think that's a borazon wheel on your end mill grinder. Those things
are expensive. Unlike the diamond wheels that the Chinese have
copied, I don't think they're duplicating the borazon wheels yet. At
least I didn't spot any on ebay. The coating on them is pretty thin.
Use a standard vitreous wheel to do your learning in case you learn
the hard way. I haven't mounted my borazon wheel yet.

RWL


I gather that you do have a Cuttermaster. If so, can you shoot a
picture of it assembled correctly? I would appreciate this greatly.

Thanks

i

I've got an Enco end mill sharpener from the 80's that looks very similar.
You've probably seen it before but I can send you pictures if you are
interested. That general style of grinder seems to be somewhat generic and
you may find several companies sold it, like Chevalier, KBC, etc. I found a
manual for mine for $25 from a company called Gromax and it appears to be
nearly an exact match so far as parts are concerned. Email me and I may be
able to found a clone manual for you from another source. Might not be an
exact match but some components should be the same as yours.

Did you get any tooling for it, like an air bearing?

Mike


Mike, yes, I have an air bearing for it. I took a few pictures after
cleaning it up.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Cuttermaster-HDT-30/

I would love to get a copy of the manual. Or, maybe, I can exchange
some piece of machinery that you need for a 30 minutes instruction or
something.

i

responding to
http://www.rittercnc.com/metalworkin...er-511480-.htm
asheksp wrote:
Please Visit
http://sexca.shopping.officelive.com/default.aspx


--