I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the **** he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

I broke my back two years ago on an ATV, and I'm an adult. I was doing
something stupid, and got caught. But we ride in some very remote rough
areas. We have since toned down our riding to just putt putt old fart
stuff.

These two had a little electric John Deere atv that was even rated for
children older than they were when they got it, four and two IIRC. They,
and their Mom and Grandma, insisted that it was okay for both to ride at the
same time, so one of the motors burned out recently, and that was all she
wrote. In the meantime, they would not follow instructions on where or
where not to ride, wearing helmets, or using the safety strap for the second
rider. They were constantly getting stuck in places they were told not to
ride.

My heart is heavy this Christmas.

Does anyone have any personal experiences with children and atvs and
negative situations?

Statistics of major injuries and death across the country tell me that I am
not being hysterical about this.

They are males, five and seven years old.

It is an internal combustion four stroke engine, not sure of the horsepower,
but usually kids atvs are limited to 70cc, and even 50cc engines have 5 hp.
Oh, and I was reminded that it has a governor, but that just means it is
mostly in low gear where there is more torque.

Steve

I think that it is ****ing crazy to buy a gas powered anything for
kids this little. The electric powered barbie cars, at least, have low
speed and low power. This has a far worse potential.

i

On 2010-12-25, Steve B wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the **** he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

I broke my back two years ago on an ATV, and I'm an adult. I was doing
something stupid, and got caught. But we ride in some very remote rough
areas. We have since toned down our riding to just putt putt old fart
stuff.

These two had a little electric John Deere atv that was even rated for
children older than they were when they got it, four and two IIRC. They,
and their Mom and Grandma, insisted that it was okay for both to ride at the
same time, so one of the motors burned out recently, and that was all she
wrote. In the meantime, they would not follow instructions on where or
where not to ride, wearing helmets, or using the safety strap for the second
rider. They were constantly getting stuck in places they were told not to
ride.

My heart is heavy this Christmas.

Does anyone have any personal experiences with children and atvs and
negative situations?

Statistics of major injuries and death across the country tell me that I am
not being hysterical about this.

They are males, five and seven years old.

It is an internal combustion four stroke engine, not sure of the horsepower,
but usually kids atvs are limited to 70cc, and even 50cc engines have 5 hp.
Oh, and I was reminded that it has a governor, but that just means it is
mostly in low gear where there is more torque.

Steve

Steve B wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the **** he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

Geez, the real problem is the son in law, not the ATV. The newspapers
are full of horror
stories about this kind of stuff, I assume you can look these up online
if you want to.

Jon

Steve B wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the **** he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

I broke my back two years ago on an ATV, and I'm an adult. I was doing
something stupid, and got caught. But we ride in some very remote rough
areas. We have since toned down our riding to just putt putt old fart
stuff.

These two had a little electric John Deere atv that was even rated for
children older than they were when they got it, four and two IIRC. They,
and their Mom and Grandma, insisted that it was okay for both to ride at the
same time, so one of the motors burned out recently, and that was all she
wrote. In the meantime, they would not follow instructions on where or
where not to ride, wearing helmets, or using the safety strap for the second
rider. They were constantly getting stuck in places they were told not to
ride.

My heart is heavy this Christmas.

Does anyone have any personal experiences with children and atvs and
negative situations?

Statistics of major injuries and death across the country tell me that I am
not being hysterical about this.

They are males, five and seven years old.

It is an internal combustion four stroke engine, not sure of the horsepower,
but usually kids atvs are limited to 70cc, and even 50cc engines have 5 hp.
Oh, and I was reminded that it has a governor, but that just means it is
mostly in low gear where there is more torque.

Steve

A suggestion. On your next visit, do a little reverse engenering on
the machines. A small sheet metal screw in the carb, a little battery
acid in the crank case, a ball bearing or two in the gear box.

Logic or stories of other kids tragedies will not be effective in
convincing, but if the thing just doesn't seem to work right the
problem might just go away.

I hear you on that - have a good friend that almost lost a grandson on
an ATV - racing home with a friend - he turned and the steel post (drill
pipe) knocked him over backwards. Lost spleen broken ribs, head, and
pelvis. Just a real fast stop against a 4" pipe.

He is for the most part ok now. It took a year of prayer to get him
that far.

Good luck.

Martin

On 12/25/2010 2:31 PM, Steve B wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the **** he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

I broke my back two years ago on an ATV, and I'm an adult. I was doing
something stupid, and got caught. But we ride in some very remote rough
areas. We have since toned down our riding to just putt putt old fart
stuff.

These two had a little electric John Deere atv that was even rated for
children older than they were when they got it, four and two IIRC. They,
and their Mom and Grandma, insisted that it was okay for both to ride at the
same time, so one of the motors burned out recently, and that was all she
wrote. In the meantime, they would not follow instructions on where or
where not to ride, wearing helmets, or using the safety strap for the second
rider. They were constantly getting stuck in places they were told not to
ride.

My heart is heavy this Christmas.

Does anyone have any personal experiences with children and atvs and
negative situations?

Statistics of major injuries and death across the country tell me that I am
not being hysterical about this.

They are males, five and seven years old.

It is an internal combustion four stroke engine, not sure of the horsepower,
but usually kids atvs are limited to 70cc, and even 50cc engines have 5 hp.
Oh, and I was reminded that it has a governor, but that just means it is
mostly in low gear where there is more torque.

Steve

On 2010-12-26, RS at work wrote:

A suggestion. On your next visit, do a little reverse engenering on
the machines. A small sheet metal screw in the carb, a little battery
acid in the crank case, a ball bearing or two in the gear box.

Logic or stories of other kids tragedies will not be effective in
convincing, but if the thing just doesn't seem to work right the
problem might just go away.

Just add abrasive dust to the fuel.

i

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
news
Steve B wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this
heretofore, and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do
whatever the **** he wanted, thank you very much for your input months
ago.

Geez, the real problem is the son in law, not the ATV. The newspapers are
full of horror
stories about this kind of stuff, I assume you can look these up online if
you want to.

Jon

SIL is a police sergeant in a city with more than a million people. As I
posted, I have been reading about this online since I got wind of this three
months ago. Statistics are sad and voluminous. When something happens, it
is usually bad.

This evening, the five year old pulled out his newest Christmas present, a
Nerf multiple fire dart gun. The first thing he did was shot his brother in
the face. On the gun it says AGES: 8+.

ATV manufacturers suggest 16 years of age on most safety placards on their
machines.

I managed an "Oh, really" when notified of the news, given in the same tone
of voice as a parent who's son had just made the local high school varsity
football squad.

We'll see, and I wish them the best.

Steve

On 2010-12-26, Steve B wrote:

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
news
Steve B wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this
heretofore, and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do
whatever the **** he wanted, thank you very much for your input months
ago.

Geez, the real problem is the son in law, not the ATV. The newspapers are
full of horror
stories about this kind of stuff, I assume you can look these up online if
you want to.

Jon

SIL is a police sergeant in a city with more than a million people. As I
posted, I have been reading about this online since I got wind of this three
months ago. Statistics are sad and voluminous. When something happens, it
is usually bad.

This evening, the five year old pulled out his newest Christmas present, a
Nerf multiple fire dart gun. The first thing he did was shot his brother in
the face. On the gun it says AGES: 8+.

ATV manufacturers suggest 16 years of age on most safety placards on their
machines.

I managed an "Oh, really" when notified of the news, given in the same tone
of voice as a parent who's son had just made the local high school varsity
football squad.

We'll see, and I wish them the best.

I would be more upset about the ATV than the nerf gun. Nerfs do not
have the energy to do any damage and the projectiles are very soft and
rounded. My kids have a nerf gun, getting shot in the face with one is
not that big of a deal.

i

On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 20:23:03 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Jon Elson" wrote in message
news
Steve B wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this
heretofore, and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do
whatever the **** he wanted, thank you very much for your input months
ago.

Geez, the real problem is the son in law, not the ATV. The newspapers are
full of horror
stories about this kind of stuff, I assume you can look these up online if
you want to.

Jon

SIL is a police sergeant in a city with more than a million people. As I
posted, I have been reading about this online since I got wind of this three
months ago. Statistics are sad and voluminous. When something happens, it
is usually bad.

This evening, the five year old pulled out his newest Christmas present, a
Nerf multiple fire dart gun. The first thing he did was shot his brother in
the face. On the gun it says AGES: 8+.

ATV manufacturers suggest 16 years of age on most safety placards on their
machines.

I managed an "Oh, really" when notified of the news, given in the same tone
of voice as a parent who's son had just made the local high school varsity
football squad.

We'll see, and I wish them the best.

Steve

Sounds like SIL is generating a new batch of young law breakers/socially
irresponsible kids he is going to have to arrest in a few years.

Sorry to hear about that.

As a side note..I raised a couple kids with a house filled with actual
firearms..and NEVER provided them with toy weapons. Ever.

I did however supply them with their very own deadly weapons and the
training to use them, along with the supervision to use them safely from
a very young age. No issues noted, no criminal records or arrests.

Gunner

"I'm a lifelong devout atheist, and I'm very tolerant of other beliefs..."
Pete C.

On Dec 25, 3:31*pm, "Steve B" wrote:

Well this is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. This goes
way beyond "You'll shoot your eye out."

If you can't talk the parents into taking these things away outright,
you can limit their power. Many years ago (early 1970s) Mitsubishi was
importing mopeds. They were making too much horsepower to be legal for
unlicenced use. A friend came up with a very simple fix:

He made an aluminum plug that fit tightly in the exhaust pipe, and
drilled a 1/4" hole in it. Surprisingly, the engines ran fine, the
mixture was fine and the power was limited just enough.

You'll probably want a much smaller hole - zero sounds like a good
size.

rangerssuck wrote:
On Dec 25, 3:31*pm, "Steve B" wrote:

Well this is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. This goes
way beyond "You'll shoot your eye out."

If you can't talk the parents into taking these things away outright,
you can limit their power. Many years ago (early 1970s) Mitsubishi was
importing mopeds. They were making too much horsepower to be legal for
unlicenced use. A friend came up with a very simple fix:

He made an aluminum plug that fit tightly in the exhaust pipe, and
drilled a 1/4" hole in it. Surprisingly, the engines ran fine, the
mixture was fine and the power was limited just enough.

You'll probably want a much smaller hole - zero sounds like a good
size.

I think he should let them run wild until they nominate themselves
for the Darwin award.

Cheers!
Rich

TwoGuns wrote:
It sounds to
me like maybe the S.I.L knows what he is doing with these kids. They
may break a few bones and get skinned up but when they grow up they
will have a huge advantage over the candy assed kids that had scaredy
cat parents. A heavy dose of MYOB would be advised for this
Grandparent.

DL

Methinks you don't understand the dangers inherent in riding a 4 wheeler .
Further , you might have skipped over the part about the kids getting into
places which put them in danger or where they were explicitly told NOT to go
while on an electric model . This tells me that mom & dad aren't
teaching/monitoring the boys as they should be .
IMO Steve is rightfully concerned about the safety and well-being of his
grandkids . I know in this situation I damn well would be !!
Not that I overprotected my kids , but they were well supervised when they
were doing things that could seriously injure them .
--
Snag
motorcycle
enthusiast

Steve B wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:31:59 -0800:

I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

One idea: To get the kids to wear helmets, see if you can find a pair
of helmets with a built in radio intercom. To use the intercom, they
have to wear the helmet.

Another idea: Take the family to see a victim of a head injury. This
may take some doing to find someone willing. A child of similar age
would be best. It will have more effect on parents than kids.
--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

My grandkids are 6 and 10 and have been riding ATV's for a couple of years
now. No issues lots of fun and lots of supervision. They both have BB guns
and both go hunting with Dad. I worry more about them riding their bicycles
out on the highway and getting hit than the guns or ATV's.
Face it, if you are going to do something stupid you don't need a gasoline
engine to do it with
"Steve B" wrote in message
...
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this
heretofore, and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do
whatever the **** he wanted, thank you very much for your input months
ago.

I broke my back two years ago on an ATV, and I'm an adult. I was doing
something stupid, and got caught. But we ride in some very remote rough
areas. We have since toned down our riding to just putt putt old fart
stuff.

These two had a little electric John Deere atv that was even rated for
children older than they were when they got it, four and two IIRC. They,
and their Mom and Grandma, insisted that it was okay for both to ride at
the same time, so one of the motors burned out recently, and that was all
she wrote. In the meantime, they would not follow instructions on where
or where not to ride, wearing helmets, or using the safety strap for the
second rider. They were constantly getting stuck in places they were told
not to ride.

My heart is heavy this Christmas.

Does anyone have any personal experiences with children and atvs and
negative situations?

Statistics of major injuries and death across the country tell me that I
am not being hysterical about this.

They are males, five and seven years old.

It is an internal combustion four stroke engine, not sure of the
horsepower, but usually kids atvs are limited to 70cc, and even 50cc
engines have 5 hp. Oh, and I was reminded that it has a governor, but that
just means it is mostly in low gear where there is more torque.

Steve

On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 22:13:53 -0600, Ignoramus4804
wrote:

On 2010-12-26, RS at work wrote:

A suggestion. On your next visit, do a little reverse engenering on
the machines. A small sheet metal screw in the carb, a little battery
acid in the crank case, a ball bearing or two in the gear box.

Logic or stories of other kids tragedies will not be effective in
convincing, but if the thing just doesn't seem to work right the
problem might just go away.

Just add abrasive dust to the fuel.

C'mon, guys. Those are criminal acts, and if the father tries to get
it covered under warranty, you can be sure to be prosecuted.

Dumb idea.

You spoke your mind, now live and let live.

--
Remember, in an emergency, dial 1911.

On 2010-12-26, Glenn wrote:
My grandkids are 6 and 10 and have been riding ATV's for a couple of years
now. No issues lots of fun and lots of supervision. They both have BB guns
and both go hunting with Dad. I worry more about them riding their bicycles
out on the highway and getting hit than the guns or ATV's.
Face it, if you are going to do something stupid you don't need a gasoline
engine to do it with

We have BB guns, but only to be used under supervision.

i

"Steve B" wrote in message
...
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this
heretofore, and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do
whatever the **** he wanted, thank you very much for your input months
ago.

I broke my back two years ago on an ATV, and I'm an adult. I was doing
something stupid, and got caught. But we ride in some very remote rough
areas. We have since toned down our riding to just putt putt old fart
stuff.

These two had a little electric John Deere atv that was even rated for
children older than they were when they got it, four and two IIRC. They,
and their Mom and Grandma, insisted that it was okay for both to ride at
the same time, so one of the motors burned out recently, and that was all
she wrote. In the meantime, they would not follow instructions on where
or where not to ride, wearing helmets, or using the safety strap for the
second rider. They were constantly getting stuck in places they were told
not to ride.

My heart is heavy this Christmas.

Does anyone have any personal experiences with children and atvs and
negative situations?

Statistics of major injuries and death across the country tell me that I
am not being hysterical about this.

They are males, five and seven years old.

It is an internal combustion four stroke engine, not sure of the
horsepower, but usually kids atvs are limited to 70cc, and even 50cc
engines have 5 hp. Oh, and I was reminded that it has a governor, but that
just means it is mostly in low gear where there is more torque.

Steve

On Dec 25, 2:31*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.


Steve

Twelve years ago, I worked with a fellow who was in a similar
situation. His grandkids had received new fourwheelers for their
Christmas. They, three of them on two fourwheelers, ages from 6 to 8,
were chasing each other on his front yard. They were so distracted in
their play that BOTH drove right out into the street in front of a
car. Killed all three. Parents were devastated but considered the
driver of the car to have been in the wrong, because he killed their
children. They shared none of the blame for giving their kids
fourwheelers and allowing them to ride unsupervised next to a busy
road. I sincerely hope that you never have to experience what my
friend went through at the death of his grandkids.

dan wrote:
Steve B wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:31:59 -0800:

I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

One idea: To get the kids to wear helmets, see if you can find a pair
of helmets with a built in radio intercom. To use the intercom, they
have to wear the helmet.

Another idea: Take the family to see a victim of a head injury. This
may take some doing to find someone willing. A child of similar age
would be best. It will have more effect on parents than kids.

I knew a young lady who decided that a helmet wasn't needed. She was my
cousin. She was buried one week prior to her graduation from HS. The ATV
she was driving flipped over and snapped her neck, killing her instantly.

--
Steve W.

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 22:13:53 -0600, Ignoramus4804
wrote:

On 2010-12-26, RS at work wrote:
A suggestion. On your next visit, do a little reverse engenering on
the machines. A small sheet metal screw in the carb, a little battery
acid in the crank case, a ball bearing or two in the gear box.

Logic or stories of other kids tragedies will not be effective in
convincing, but if the thing just doesn't seem to work right the
problem might just go away.
Just add abrasive dust to the fuel.

C'mon, guys. Those are criminal acts, and if the father tries to get
it covered under warranty, you can be sure to be prosecuted.

Dumb idea.

You spoke your mind, now live and let live.

--
Remember, in an emergency, dial 1911.

It's also a criminal act to allow operation of an ATV by children in
many states. Most have 16 as the youngest legal age.

--
Steve W.

Gerry wrote:
On Dec 25, 2:31 pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.


Steve

Twelve years ago, I worked with a fellow who was in a similar
situation. His grandkids had received new fourwheelers for their
Christmas. They, three of them on two fourwheelers, ages from 6 to 8,
were chasing each other on his front yard. They were so distracted in
their play that BOTH drove right out into the street in front of a
car. Killed all three. Parents were devastated but considered the
driver of the car to have been in the wrong, because he killed their
children. They shared none of the blame for giving their kids
fourwheelers and allowing them to ride unsupervised next to a busy
road. I sincerely hope that you never have to experience what my
friend went through at the death of his grandkids.


That is Darwinism at work. It sounds cold but if the parents don't care
enough to watch the kids then the lack of the kids may be better.

--
Steve W.
(\___/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Steve W. wrote:
Gerry wrote:
On Dec 25, 2:31 pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and
seven, on their new Christmas present, an ATV.

Twelve years ago, I worked with a fellow who was in a similar
situation. His grandkids had received new fourwheelers for their
Christmas. They, three of them on two fourwheelers, ages from 6 to 8,
were chasing each other on his front yard. They were so distracted in
their play that BOTH drove right out into the street in front of a
car. Killed all three. Parents were devastated but considered the
driver of the car to have been in the wrong, because he killed their
children. They shared none of the blame for giving their kids
fourwheelers and allowing them to ride unsupervised next to a busy
road. I sincerely hope that you never have to experience what my
friend went through at the death of his grandkids.

That is Darwinism at work. It sounds cold but if the parents don't care
enough to watch the kids then the lack of the kids may be better.

This brought to mind that scene from "Pet Sematary." But I agree, it's
the Darwin effect; I was just too chicken to say so before.

Thanks,
Rich

Ignoramus27085 wrote:
On 2010-12-26, Glenn wrote:
My grandkids are 6 and 10 and have been riding ATV's for a couple of
years
now. No issues lots of fun and lots of supervision. They both have BB
guns
and both go hunting with Dad. I worry more about them riding their
bicycles out on the highway and getting hit than the guns or ATV's.
Face it, if you are going to do something stupid you don't need a
gasoline engine to do it with

We have BB guns, but only to be used under supervision.

I don't know if my siblings and I are charmed or something, but for some
reason, the idea of shooting people in they eye never even occurred to us.

Thanks,
Rich

Steve W. wrote:
dan wrote:
Steve B wrote in

I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and
seven, on their new Christmas present, an ATV.

One idea: To get the kids to wear helmets, see if you can find a pair
of helmets with a built in radio intercom. To use the intercom, they
have to wear the helmet.

Another idea: Take the family to see a victim of a head injury. This
may take some doing to find someone willing. A child of similar age
would be best. It will have more effect on parents than kids.

I knew a young lady who decided that a helmet wasn't needed. She was my
cousin. She was buried one week prior to her graduation from HS. The ATV
she was driving flipped over and snapped her neck, killing her instantly.

If it was her neck that was snapped, how would a helmet have mitigated
that? Wouldn't it provide even more leverage for ol' debbil Gravity
to do his dastardly work?

Thanks,
Rich

On Dec 26, 8:51*am, "Snag" wrote:
TwoGuns wrote:
It sounds to
me like maybe the S.I.L knows what he is doing with these kids. They
may break a few bones and get skinned up but when they grow up they
will have a huge advantage over the candy assed kids that had scaredy
cat parents. A heavy dose of MYOB would be advised for this
Grandparent.

DL

* Methinks you don't understand the dangers inherent in riding a 4 wheeler .
Further , you might have skipped over the part about the kids getting into
places which put them in danger or where they were explicitly told NOT to go
while on an electric model . This tells me that mom & dad aren't
teaching/monitoring the boys as they should be .
*IMO Steve is rightfully concerned about the safety and well-being of his
grandkids . I know in this situation I damn well would be !!
* Not that I overprotected my kids , but they were well supervised when they
were doing things that could seriously injure them .
--
Snag
motorcycle
enthusiast

I have been riding motorcycles since I was ten Snag (now 64) and I've
spent many hours on three wheelers, four wheelers, dune buggies and
many other vehicles. I have suffered a few bruises and some road rash
so I know what CAN happen when you do something stupid. The OP said
the Grandkids did things they were told not to. I gathered they did
things that their Granddad told them not to. If they did something
their Dad had approved Granddad is interfering IMHO and he needs to
butt out.

DL

TwoGuns wrote:
On Dec 26, 8:51 am, "Snag" wrote:
TwoGuns wrote:
It sounds to
me like maybe the S.I.L knows what he is doing with these kids. They
may break a few bones and get skinned up but when they grow up they
will have a huge advantage over the candy assed kids that had
scaredy cat parents. A heavy dose of MYOB would be advised for this
Grandparent.

DL

Methinks you don't understand the dangers inherent in riding a 4
wheeler . Further , you might have skipped over the part about the
kids getting into places which put them in danger or where they were
explicitly told NOT to go while on an electric model . This tells me
that mom & dad aren't teaching/monitoring the boys as they should be
.
IMO Steve is rightfully concerned about the safety and well-being of
his grandkids . I know in this situation I damn well would be !!
Not that I overprotected my kids , but they were well supervised
when they were doing things that could seriously injure them .
--
Snag
motorcycle
enthusiast

I have been riding motorcycles since I was ten Snag (now 64) and I've
spent many hours on three wheelers, four wheelers, dune buggies and
many other vehicles. I have suffered a few bruises and some road rash
so I know what CAN happen when you do something stupid. The OP said
the Grandkids did things they were told not to. I gathered they did
things that their Granddad told them not to. If they did something
their Dad had approved Granddad is interfering IMHO and he needs to
butt out.

DL

Hmm , I had the impression they did things Mom & Dad said not to ... well
, neither of us is involved , and we've both stated our positions . Bottom
line is that we ain't in control of this situation , and our opinions are
moot .
That said , I've been ridin' since I was 13 , but I'm not quite as old as
you . Also had my share of bumps and broken bones , and it's made me a more
careful rider . Especially this time of year , the cagers don't really
expect to see bikes , which makes me triply cautious - though lately we've
been seeing a lot more bikes out . We think this is probably due to fuel
costs and under/unemployment .
--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !

On 2010-12-26, Steve W. wrote:
dan wrote:
Steve B wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:31:59 -0800:

I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

One idea: To get the kids to wear helmets, see if you can find a pair
of helmets with a built in radio intercom. To use the intercom, they
have to wear the helmet.

Another idea: Take the family to see a victim of a head injury. This
may take some doing to find someone willing. A child of similar age
would be best. It will have more effect on parents than kids.

I knew a young lady who decided that a helmet wasn't needed. She was my
cousin. She was buried one week prior to her graduation from HS. The ATV
she was driving flipped over and snapped her neck, killing her instantly.


And how would a helmet help?

Otherwise I would say, sad story.

Some accidents are not as deadly, such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HStc1BjaRAY

i

"Steve B" wrote:

I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the **** he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

I broke my back two years ago on an ATV, and I'm an adult. I was doing
something stupid, and got caught. But we ride in some very remote rough
areas. We have since toned down our riding to just putt putt old fart
stuff.

These two had a little electric John Deere atv that was even rated for
children older than they were when they got it, four and two IIRC. They,
and their Mom and Grandma, insisted that it was okay for both to ride at the
same time, so one of the motors burned out recently, and that was all she
wrote. In the meantime, they would not follow instructions on where or
where not to ride, wearing helmets, or using the safety strap for the second
rider. They were constantly getting stuck in places they were told not to
ride.

I feel for you Steve. A few years ago, kid at work's younger brother died on a atv, too
much throttle, too little experience. Life grades hard when an internal combustion engine
is involved.

About the only thing I can suggest is you load up your atv and teach these kids some
skills and acquaint them of the dangers.

I hope you are not prescient in reguards to this.

Wes


My heart is heavy this Christmas.
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 18:27:48 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

dan wrote:
Steve B wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:31:59 -0800:

I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

One idea: To get the kids to wear helmets, see if you can find a pair
of helmets with a built in radio intercom. To use the intercom, they
have to wear the helmet.

Another idea: Take the family to see a victim of a head injury. This
may take some doing to find someone willing. A child of similar age
would be best. It will have more effect on parents than kids.

I knew a young lady who decided that a helmet wasn't needed. She was my
cousin. She was buried one week prior to her graduation from HS. The ATV
she was driving flipped over and snapped her neck, killing her instantly.

So the Helmet wouldnt have saved her in the slightest. But your point is
well taken despite this.

I wont even get on a skate board without a helmet, let alone a bicycle,
motorcycle etc etc.

Ive far too many aqquaintences that resemble vegitables in mental
outlook because they didnt bother with head protection..one time too
many.

Gunner

"I'm a lifelong devout atheist, and I'm very tolerant of other beliefs..."
Pete C.

"TwoGuns" wrote in message
...
On Dec 26, 8:51 am, "Snag" wrote:
TwoGuns wrote:
It sounds to
me like maybe the S.I.L knows what he is doing with these kids. They
may break a few bones and get skinned up but when they grow up they
will have a huge advantage over the candy assed kids that had scaredy
cat parents. A heavy dose of MYOB would be advised for this
Grandparent.

DL

Methinks you don't understand the dangers inherent in riding a 4 wheeler .
Further , you might have skipped over the part about the kids getting into
places which put them in danger or where they were explicitly told NOT to
go
while on an electric model . This tells me that mom & dad aren't
teaching/monitoring the boys as they should be .
IMO Steve is rightfully concerned about the safety and well-being of his
grandkids . I know in this situation I damn well would be !!
Not that I overprotected my kids , but they were well supervised when they
were doing things that could seriously injure them .
--
Snag
motorcycle
enthusiast

I have been riding motorcycles since I was ten Snag (now 64) and I've
spent many hours on three wheelers, four wheelers, dune buggies and
many other vehicles. I have suffered a few bruises and some road rash
so I know what CAN happen when you do something stupid. The OP said
the Grandkids did things they were told not to. I gathered they did
things that their Granddad told them not to. If they did something
their Dad had approved Granddad is interfering IMHO and he needs to
butt out.

DL

Is English your second language? You have quoted me incorrectly several
times about several things I said. The boys commonly do not do as
instructed when left in our care and custody for up to two weeks at a time.
They don't mind their parents, either.

Before running on any more at the mouth, here's some real facts:

http://www.atvsafetynet.org/parents.php?page=map

Steve

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 22:13:53 -0600, Ignoramus4804
wrote:

On 2010-12-26, RS at work wrote:
A suggestion. On your next visit, do a little reverse engenering on
the machines. A small sheet metal screw in the carb, a little battery
acid in the crank case, a ball bearing or two in the gear box.

Logic or stories of other kids tragedies will not be effective in
convincing, but if the thing just doesn't seem to work right the
problem might just go away.
Just add abrasive dust to the fuel.

C'mon, guys. Those are criminal acts, and if the father tries to get
it covered under warranty, you can be sure to be prosecuted.

Dumb idea.

You spoke your mind, now live and let live.

--
Remember, in an emergency, dial 1911.

It's also a criminal act to allow operation of an ATV by children in
many states. Most have 16 as the youngest legal age.

--
Steve W.

So, then do you REALLY think that 5 and 7 is too young?

http://www.atvsafetynet.org/parents.php?page=map

Steve

"dan" wrote in message
...
Steve B wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:31:59 -0800:

I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

One idea: To get the kids to wear helmets, see if you can find a pair
of helmets with a built in radio intercom. To use the intercom, they
have to wear the helmet.

Another idea: Take the family to see a victim of a head injury. This
may take some doing to find someone willing. A child of similar age
would be best. It will have more effect on parents than kids.
--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

Both parents are employed in public safety.

Steve

"Gerry" wrote in message
...
On Dec 25, 2:31 pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.


Steve

Twelve years ago, I worked with a fellow who was in a similar
situation. His grandkids had received new fourwheelers for their
Christmas. They, three of them on two fourwheelers, ages from 6 to 8,
were chasing each other on his front yard. They were so distracted in
their play that BOTH drove right out into the street in front of a
car. Killed all three. Parents were devastated but considered the
driver of the car to have been in the wrong, because he killed their
children. They shared none of the blame for giving their kids
fourwheelers and allowing them to ride unsupervised next to a busy
road. I sincerely hope that you never have to experience what my
friend went through at the death of his grandkids.

reply:

I'm holding my breath. Now I must tell them that I will not go on any ride
with them, as it is too stressful for me, and eventually, I think there may
be a time when I have to speak my mind. I already said I didn't think they
were old enough, and would not follow instructions when on the slow electric
one, but Dad mostly had other ideas.

Like I said, I wish them well, and I hope I am wrong.

Steve

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote:

I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this
heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the ****
he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

I broke my back two years ago on an ATV, and I'm an adult. I was doing
something stupid, and got caught. But we ride in some very remote rough
areas. We have since toned down our riding to just putt putt old fart
stuff.

These two had a little electric John Deere atv that was even rated for
children older than they were when they got it, four and two IIRC. They,
and their Mom and Grandma, insisted that it was okay for both to ride at
the
same time, so one of the motors burned out recently, and that was all she
wrote. In the meantime, they would not follow instructions on where or
where not to ride, wearing helmets, or using the safety strap for the
second
rider. They were constantly getting stuck in places they were told not to
ride.

I feel for you Steve. A few years ago, kid at work's younger brother died
on a atv, too
much throttle, too little experience. Life grades hard when an internal
combustion engine
is involved.

About the only thing I can suggest is you load up your atv and teach these
kids some
skills and acquaint them of the dangers.

I hope you are not prescient in reguards to this.

Wes

No, I do not want them riding at all at this age. So far they have shown
that they will not follow instructions, so I will take that as an indicator
on how their future riding instruction will be received. If anything
happens, I have no guilt or responsibility in it.

Steve

My heart is heavy this Christmas.

Does anyone have any personal experiences with children and atvs and
negative situations?

Statistics of major injuries and death across the country tell me that I am
not being hysterical about this.

They are males, five and seven years old.

Steve

Steve
You don't mention where the children and the neglectful parents are
but a call to the local CPS might get their attention. CPS as in Child
Protective Services. Look under the Juvenille court listings if there
is one.

Bob AZ

I would be more upset about the ATV than the nerf gun. Nerfs do not
have the energy to do any damage and the projectiles are very soft and
rounded. My kids have a nerf gun, getting shot in the face with one is
not that big of a deal.

i

Check out the Nerf Hyperfire. It comes with safety glasses FOR THE SHOOTER.
Nine shot. Plastic coated darts, about as round as a dime, definitely could
"shoot yer eye out", particularly when aimed intentionally at someone's face
WHO DOESN'T GET A PAIR OF GLASSES.

Steve

On Dec 26, 6:31*am, "Steve B" wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the **** he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.


Steve

Steve mate, sorry. I reckon most parents/grandparents could relate
similar tales of stupidity.
Nothing you can do about it, resist the temptation to say
"I told ya so..."

And they will, most of them anyway, grow up to be normal people. (Like
us here G)

Andrew VK3BFA.

PS - my kids did/do more stupid things than YOUR kids do....nah nah
nah nah.....

On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 18:30:29 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 22:13:53 -0600, Ignoramus4804
wrote:

On 2010-12-26, RS at work wrote:
A suggestion. On your next visit, do a little reverse engenering on
the machines. A small sheet metal screw in the carb, a little battery
acid in the crank case, a ball bearing or two in the gear box.

Logic or stories of other kids tragedies will not be effective in
convincing, but if the thing just doesn't seem to work right the
problem might just go away.
Just add abrasive dust to the fuel.

C'mon, guys. Those are criminal acts, and if the father tries to get
it covered under warranty, you can be sure to be prosecuted.

Dumb idea.

You spoke your mind, now live and let live.

--
Remember, in an emergency, dial 1911.

It's also a criminal act to allow operation of an ATV by children in
many states. Most have 16 as the youngest legal age.

from http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0216.htm Google #1 spot:

"The law sets a minimum age for operating an ATV on state-owned land,
but does not set a minimum age for operating an ATV other places. On
state land, no one under 12 may operate an ATV and someone aged 12 to
16 may operate an ATV only if they have obtained an operation
certificate and are supervised by someone older than 18. "


Steve, you could call a Sheriff or Ranger when they go out camping, or
whenever they ride. A couple fines or days in jail might help correct
his thinking. But be prepared to hear that it happens so often, the DA
won't prosecute and the cops are told NOT to arrest parents for it,
and if you push this too far, be prepared to lose that arm of the
family. They may still shun you if they do lose a child because you
warned them and they didn't listen. Condolences on your predicament.

Or accept the fact that underage use of ATVs (they come in children's
sizes now, too) is rampant and you may not be able to change it, even
in your own family line.

--
Remember, in an emergency, dial 1911.

By the way guys, I am sure I will **** off a lot of people with my
opinion, but the same applies to use of motorcycles by people of all
ages.

They are not safe and cannot be made safe by following any "safe
driving" procedures.

Do I think that adults have a right to ride motorcycles? Yes.

Do I think that it is a smart thing to do? No.

i

On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 22:05:40 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:


"dan" wrote in message
...
Steve B wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:31:59 -0800:

I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

One idea: To get the kids to wear helmets, see if you can find a pair
of helmets with a built in radio intercom. To use the intercom, they
have to wear the helmet.

Another idea: Take the family to see a victim of a head injury. This
may take some doing to find someone willing. A child of similar age
would be best. It will have more effect on parents than kids.
--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

Both parents are employed in public safety.

And the simple fact that the first thing the kid did was point the
nerf gun at his brother and shoot him in the face brings us to the
fact that being employed in public safety does not ensure proper
childcare nor supervision nor punishment for unsafe acts. Sad.

The fact that Toyota just lost a $10M lawsuit to a California Highway
Patrolman who couldn't figure out how to switch off the key (or shift
into neutral) in his Lexus reinforces this point. Anyone with HALF a
mind could have noticed that a floor mat had become stuck under the
accelerator pedal and removed it, or had it moved by the passenger.


I was taught never to aim at a face, even with a squirtgun or hose as
it can do eye damage. And no gun or sliingshot or sling would ever be
pointed at another human being or animal, or I would get switched. It
is clear that your SIL has done none of this at this point, so

I'm pretty damned sure you ain't gonna win this one, Steve. Murphy has
been working overtime on setting it up.

--
Remember, in an emergency, dial 1911.

Ignoramus7943 wrote:

By the way guys, I am sure I will **** off a lot of people with my
opinion, ...

Don't worry about it Ig, my opinions generally **** off _everybody_! ;-)

Happy New Year!
Rich