"Andrew VK3BFA" wrote in message
...
On Dec 26, 6:31 am, "Steve B" wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this
heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the ****
he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.


Steve

Steve mate, sorry. I reckon most parents/grandparents could relate
similar tales of stupidity.
Nothing you can do about it, resist the temptation to say
"I told ya so..."

And they will, most of them anyway, grow up to be normal people. (Like
us here G)

Andrew VK3BFA.

PS - my kids did/do more stupid things than YOUR kids do....nah nah
nah nah.....

reply:

I am 62. I have seen and done a lot of extremely stupid things. But, like
an Alfred Hitchcock movie when everyone in the audience knows there's a bomb
in the briefcase under the table that's about to go off, but none of the
characters on the stage has a clue, it is stressful.

In our family, we have soooooooooooooooo many stories of full grown men
doing all sorts of stupid things with engines, gears, gasoline, ropes,
mechanical lifting, fire, chains, well, I think it's probably like that in
your family, too.

Still, it's hard to actually watch someone heading for a cliff, and be
silent. And sometimes, they stop before they get there. Or not.

I'm sure we all have at least a dozen stories of stupid mistakes and near
mistakes we survived and never told anyone.

Sad part is that death is permanent.

Steve

"Ignoramus7943" wrote in message
...
By the way guys, I am sure I will **** off a lot of people with my
opinion, but the same applies to use of motorcycles by people of all
ages.

They are not safe and cannot be made safe by following any "safe
driving" procedures.

Do I think that adults have a right to ride motorcycles? Yes.

Do I think that it is a smart thing to do? No.

i

I'm with you.

I got a motorcycle two weeks before I turned 14 and was legally able to
drive it. Before that, my Dad took me to a local high school parking lot
and showed me how it worked. I thought I was tough ****. Then, in traffic,
I was gawking, and not looking at the car in front of me that had stopped.
I slammed on the brake, and since I didn't have both hands on the bars, got
a sprained wrist when I hit the handlebars. No riding for a couple of
weeks. A couple of weeks later, I was an eyewitness from fifty feet away of
a kid on a new Honda 50 slamming into the back of a car that had stopped for
two kids in a crosswalk. He went rolling over the car, landed face down in
front of the car, and all the blood in his body came out in about a minute.
I didn't ride my motorcycle for about three months.

I rode until I was about 21, dirt bikes, various bikes, going up to a 1966
XLCH Harley. It was scary then in traffic, and today, I would not ride a
motorcycle on the roads, not even a bicycle. I've seen too many people
under yellow sheets. Then there's antifreeze and tranny fluid puddles,
fergeddabout stupid drivers.

I have lost some friends who were long time riders, and no amount of
experience can prepare you for some broad that pulls out in front of you
while doing her eyelashes in the mirror. And some were totally their fault.

YMMV

Steve

On 2010-12-27, Steve B wrote:

"Ignoramus7943" wrote in message
...
By the way guys, I am sure I will **** off a lot of people with my
opinion, but the same applies to use of motorcycles by people of all
ages.
.... ... ...
I'm with you.
.... ... ...
I have lost some friends who were long time riders, and no amount of
experience can prepare you for some broad that pulls out in front of you
while doing her eyelashes in the mirror. And some were totally their fault.


Exactly. There is, pretty much, no such thing as a minor motorcycle accident.

i

Steve B wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the **** he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

Nothing much to add except that this might
be useful. They can at least call for help
if they get hurt:

http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=101

Lots of pilots are carrying them and think
highly of them.

What about motocross helmets and body armor?

My folks didn't allow unsupervised trail riding
until I was 14-15.

Good luck.

"Ignoramus7943" wrote in message
...
On 2010-12-27, Steve B wrote:

"Ignoramus7943" wrote in message
...
By the way guys, I am sure I will **** off a lot of people with my
opinion, but the same applies to use of motorcycles by people of all
ages.
... ... ...
I'm with you.
... ... ...
I have lost some friends who were long time riders, and no amount of
experience can prepare you for some broad that pulls out in front of you
while doing her eyelashes in the mirror. And some were totally their
fault.


Exactly. There is, pretty much, no such thing as a minor motorcycle
accident.

i

One a couple of years ago in Laughlin, NV, a mc hit a SUV so hard in a t
bone, the SUV was toppled on its side. Needless to say, the driver
.............. I've never seen a bike or a motorcycle win a direct contact
incident.

Steve

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Steve B wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven,
on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this
heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the ****
he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

Nothing much to add except that this might
be useful. They can at least call for help
if they get hurt:

http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=101

Lots of pilots are carrying them and think
highly of them.

What about motocross helmets and body armor?

My folks didn't allow unsupervised trail riding
until I was 14-15.

Good luck.

You can bundle them up like sumo wrestlers, but if they are just not
mentally ready for it, it's all for naught. These two are the types who
have to take EVERYTHING to the breaking point, just to find out where that
is, no matter if they end up destroying it. Except for their educational or
art stuff, they go through toys like bacon goes through a goose.

Steve

Ignoramus7943 wrote:
On 2010-12-27, Steve B wrote:

"Ignoramus7943" wrote in message
...
By the way guys, I am sure I will **** off a lot of people with my
opinion, but the same applies to use of motorcycles by people of all
ages.
... ... ...
I'm with you.
... ... ...
I have lost some friends who were long time riders, and no amount of
experience can prepare you for some broad that pulls out in front of
you while doing her eyelashes in the mirror. And some were totally
their fault.


Exactly. There is, pretty much, no such thing as a minor motorcycle
accident.

i

Sure there is , like the time the yuppiebitch intentionally distracted me by
coming over into my lane . Paid too much attention to her , didn't realize
there was a car stopped in my lane . I almost stopped in time . Toll for
that one was a busted windshield and a very small ding on my front fender .
OTOH , when the drunk turned left about 30 feet in front of me , I
punched his right front wheel at ~45 MPH . That one cost me a broken nose ,
jaw , hand , several stitches in my lip ... and a really sweet 1976 Harley
FLH , all original including the hand shift/foot clutch .
My current ride is a 1990 FLHTCU ... which I've ridden around 35,000 miles
in just under 4 years .
--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !

Steve B wrote:

You can bundle them up like sumo wrestlers, but if they are just not
mentally ready for it, it's all for naught. These two are the types who
have to take EVERYTHING to the breaking point, just to find out where that
is, no matter if they end up destroying it. Except for their educational or
art stuff, they go through toys like bacon goes through a goose.

Then the *only* toys they need are the educational
and art stuff.

We are likeminded on all points. Hope you can come
up with something that gives you some peace.

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 12:36:41 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

On 2010-12-27, Steve B wrote:

"Ignoramus7943" wrote in message
...
By the way guys, I am sure I will **** off a lot of people with my
opinion, but the same applies to use of motorcycles by people of all
ages.
... ... ...
I'm with you.
... ... ...
I have lost some friends who were long time riders, and no amount of
experience can prepare you for some broad that pulls out in front of you
while doing her eyelashes in the mirror. And some were totally their fault.


Exactly. There is, pretty much, no such thing as a minor motorcycle accident.

For me there was. I was doing 35mph on a drizzly day on the way to my
bowling league (age 16) when a lady in a Cadillac pulled out in front
of me and stopped. I hit the brakes and felt it going over, so I
dropped it and rode it into her back door. My helmet bent the door
panel and frame, breaking the window, which was up. I was a bit
rattled, but I wore a fairly thick jacket which kept my 3" road-rash
on my forearm pretty small and shallow. My Kawasaki street 90
survived with repairs.

Another guy I knew had been warned never to hit 5th gear on his Kaw
Ninja with a WOT. He did and when it flipped, the front half of his
head was shaved off at a 45 degree angle. No helmet, but it wouldn't
have helped him anyway.

Most of the guys I knew who rode got hurt on their own, but those who
were killed were usually from someone not paying attention on the
road. People pulling out in front of them, changing lane into them,
etc.

It's scary enough in a car, with steel all around you, nowadays.

--
Remember, in an emergency, dial 1911.

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Steve B wrote:

You can bundle them up like sumo wrestlers, but if they are just not
mentally ready for it, it's all for naught. These two are the types who
have to take EVERYTHING to the breaking point, just to find out where
that
is, no matter if they end up destroying it. Except for their educational
or
art stuff, they go through toys like bacon goes through a goose.

Then the *only* toys they need are the educational
and art stuff.

We are likeminded on all points. Hope you can come
up with something that gives you some peace.

I can only try to control what happens at MY house. They will be here for a
week starting this afternoon, as their parents have to work this New Year's
Eve, doing a 24 hour shift.

Funny, but when they are here, they aren't the whiny brats they are at home.
I wonder why that is. Now, to work on their manners when it comes to
getting into other people's stuff. One step at a time.

They love to go with Papa. Go to Ace, go to the dump, go to NAPA. Having
to stay home makes a pretty good impression on them. They are boys, and I
hope they don't get into as much stuff as I did, but I just want them to
come out the other end without any permanent damage, or prison bitch
material. We've already got one relative who may be out in about 15
years............. and he managed to get into AdSeg, he was adjusting so
well to prison life ............

Steve

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 08:44:20 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

By the way guys, I am sure I will **** off a lot of people with my
opinion, but the same applies to use of motorcycles by people of all
ages.

They are not safe and cannot be made safe by following any "safe
driving" procedures.

Do I think that adults have a right to ride motorcycles? Yes.

Do I think that it is a smart thing to do? No.

i

Define smart.

Life is not safe. Some might measure a lifetime by how much they
enjoyed it, however long or short it might have been.

On Dec 28, 4:11*am, "Steve B" wrote:
"Andrew VK3BFA" wrote in message

...
On Dec 26, 6:31 am, "Steve B" wrote:


Hey - I never said it didn't suck. I'm 57, 5 kids - 3 of them
competent adults, the other two - their mother hopes against hope for
them, but shes ****ing into the wind. Raising one of their kids too -
totally Feral, no chance there. Stuffed from birth.
So, mate - antidepressants help, so does an acceptance of whatever
**** up comes along. Its going to happen anyway.
They will grow up, or not. Nothing you can do about it. Welcome to the
human race - this sorta crap has been going on for a fair while
now....

Andrew VK3BFA.

"Andrew VK3BFA" wrote in message
...
On Dec 28, 4:11 am, "Steve B" wrote:
"Andrew VK3BFA" wrote in message

...
On Dec 26, 6:31 am, "Steve B" wrote:


Hey - I never said it didn't suck. I'm 57, 5 kids - 3 of them
competent adults, the other two - their mother hopes against hope for
them, but shes ****ing into the wind. Raising one of their kids too -
totally Feral, no chance there. Stuffed from birth.
So, mate - antidepressants help, so does an acceptance of whatever
**** up comes along. Its going to happen anyway.
They will grow up, or not. Nothing you can do about it. Welcome to the
human race - this sorta crap has been going on for a fair while
now....

Andrew VK3BFA.

Tell me. Is it tough being a genius, or what?

On Dec 29 2010, 2:47*am, "Steve B" wrote:
"Andrew VK3BFA" wrote in message

...
On Dec 28, 4:11 am, "Steve B" wrote:

"Andrew VK3BFA" wrote in message

....
On Dec 26, 6:31 am, "Steve B" wrote:



Tell me. *Is it tough being a genius, or what?

Dunno. Never tried being a genius, dont think I am up to
it. .Machining to tolerance is hard enuff. (seems like bloody Zen
sometimes - if the spirit is with you etc etc, it can be done.
Otherwise, forget it. Same goes for welding...)

Steve - at 62, surely you have figured out a few things by now about
how the WORLD and LIFE work.....or at least had a stab at it. It
will always be an uneasy acceptance, fer sure. Contradictions all over
the bloody place. No thinking person could imagine it runs on sane,
rational lines. Your present method just seems to cause you grief, of
the type of bashing your head into a wall. Sorry. really am, hope you
can get to a better place..

Andrew VK3BFA.

Andrew VK3BFA wrote:

Tell me. *Is it tough being a genius, or what?

Depends on your definition of "genius." If it's 140+ then yes, it's a bitch.
All my life, my Mom and Dad said, "You have such great potential," the
unsaid part being, "Why are you such a disappointment?"

Yeah, it's hard to be a genius, especially when the idiots are making
government policy.

Thanks,
Rich

"Andrew VK3BFA" wrote in message
...
On Dec 29 2010, 2:47 am, "Steve B" wrote:
"Andrew VK3BFA" wrote in message

...
On Dec 28, 4:11 am, "Steve B" wrote:

"Andrew VK3BFA" wrote in message

...
On Dec 26, 6:31 am, "Steve B" wrote:



Tell me. Is it tough being a genius, or what?

Dunno. Never tried being a genius, dont think I am up to
it. .Machining to tolerance is hard enuff. (seems like bloody Zen
sometimes - if the spirit is with you etc etc, it can be done.
Otherwise, forget it. Same goes for welding...)

Steve - at 62, surely you have figured out a few things by now about
how the WORLD and LIFE work.....or at least had a stab at it. It
will always be an uneasy acceptance, fer sure. Contradictions all over
the bloody place. No thinking person could imagine it runs on sane,
rational lines. Your present method just seems to cause you grief, of
the type of bashing your head into a wall. Sorry. really am, hope you
can get to a better place..

Andrew VK3BFA.

I'm working on it. And limiting talking to some people helps, too.

Steve

On Dec 25 2010, 2:31*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the **** he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

I broke my back two years ago on an ATV, and I'm an adult. *I was doing
something stupid, and got caught. *But we ride in some very remote rough
areas. *We have since toned down our riding to just putt putt old fart
stuff.

These two had a little electric John Deere atv that was even rated for
children older than they were when they got it, four and two IIRC. *They,
and their Mom and Grandma, insisted that it was okay for both to ride at the
same time, so one of the motors burned out recently, and that was all she
wrote. *In the meantime, they would not follow instructions on where or
where not to ride, wearing helmets, or using the safety strap for the second
rider. *They were constantly getting stuck in places they were told not to
ride.

My heart is heavy this Christmas.

Does anyone have any personal experiences with children and atvs and
negative situations?

Statistics of major injuries and death across the country tell me that I am
not being hysterical about this.

They are males, five and seven years old.

It is an internal combustion four stroke engine, not sure of the horsepower,
but usually kids atvs are limited to 70cc, and even 50cc engines have 5 hp.
Oh, and I was reminded that it has a governor, but that just means it is
mostly in low gear where there is more torque.

Steve

Your concern is justified.

ATVs are very dangerous...the stats bear that out.

Children at that age do not have the motor skills to handle them.

Years ago I came close to being seriously injured on a 3 wheel
ATV....which are now illegal.

If you can, take steps to slow their ATV to the slowest speed you can.

Helmets required..no exceptions.

Any parent considering buying a ATV for their kids should be required
to volunteer in a head injury ward in the local hospital.

TMT

On Dec 25 2010, 2:31*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I was just sent a cell phone picture of my two grandsons, five and seven, on
their new Christmas present, an ATV.

I am very troubled by this, having expressed my feelings on this heretofore,
and knowing that the strong willed son-in-law would do whatever the **** he
wanted, thank you very much for your input months ago.

I broke my back two years ago on an ATV, and I'm an adult. *I was doing
something stupid, and got caught. *But we ride in some very remote rough
areas. *We have since toned down our riding to just putt putt old fart
stuff.

These two had a little electric John Deere atv that was even rated for
children older than they were when they got it, four and two IIRC. *They,
and their Mom and Grandma, insisted that it was okay for both to ride at the
same time, so one of the motors burned out recently, and that was all she
wrote. *In the meantime, they would not follow instructions on where or
where not to ride, wearing helmets, or using the safety strap for the second
rider. *They were constantly getting stuck in places they were told not to
ride.

My heart is heavy this Christmas.

Does anyone have any personal experiences with children and atvs and
negative situations?

Statistics of major injuries and death across the country tell me that I am
not being hysterical about this.

They are males, five and seven years old.

It is an internal combustion four stroke engine, not sure of the horsepower,
but usually kids atvs are limited to 70cc, and even 50cc engines have 5 hp.
Oh, and I was reminded that it has a governor, but that just means it is
mostly in low gear where there is more torque.

Steve

Steve...I have been thinking about this situation...

FIrst let me say that if I did not care about the safety of your
grandkids, I would not be typing this.

I think your best course of action is one of making the best of what
is in place.

Rule one...it is apparent that your SIL is one that you have to work
around...to confort him directly is counterproductive to the final
goal of your grandkid's safety...remember this. The fact that your
daughter has gone along with the ATV purchases indicates she has
little influence on him...or agrees with him..either way she is part
of the problem.

If you can get a keyed switch on the ATVs, do it. Then make sure that
adults hold the keys. Hopefully this will mean that the ATVs will be
used under some type of adult supervision..right now that is not the
case.

Next...it would seem you have some influence on the kids..not the
parents...so make that work for you...that is your biggest advantage.

Give your grandkids a late Christmas present of a ATV safety driving
course...and you join them as one of the participants. With you
actively taking a safety course along side of your grandkids, you are
sending a very strong message of teaching by example...and making a
memory that they will treasure. Think of it as if you were attending a
shooting safety course with your grandkids to teach proper gun
handling and safety. THey will be watching you like a hawk for
cues..so take a no nonsense approach...all rules apply. Next I would
take them and go buy whatever cool helmets they want....the more they
buy into the helment the more likely they will wear it ...all the
time. If other protective gear is available...especially that which
would prevent neck injuries, buy it. It is like riding a bike...helmet
and leathers all the way around..no exceptions.

Now at home if you have the capability provide them with the driving
course they can use. Remove ALL obstructions...and I mean all of them.
(I know of a case where a young rider died hitting the only damn tree
in large course...senseless death.)

One last comment...no friends should be allowed to ride on the
ATVs...it is a lawsuit just waiting to happen.

Good luck.

TMT

On 12/25/2010 07:23 PM, RS at work wrote:


Steve B wrote:

A suggestion. On your next visit, do a little reverse engenering on
the machines. A small sheet metal screw in the carb, a little battery
acid in the crank case, a ball bearing or two in the gear box.
You don't have to destroy the thing, just a little tinkering with the
governor might slow it down a bit and increase the margin of safety.
Might even be done by just bending the linkage wires between governor
and carb.

Jon

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
On 12/25/2010 07:23 PM, RS at work wrote:


Steve B wrote:

A suggestion. On your next visit, do a little reverse engenering on
the machines. A small sheet metal screw in the carb, a little battery
acid in the crank case, a ball bearing or two in the gear box.
You don't have to destroy the thing, just a little tinkering with the
governor might slow it down a bit and increase the margin of safety. Might
even be done by just bending the linkage wires between governor
and carb.

Jon

Thanks, but I do not have access to the bike. They were unsafe with a very
slow electric ATV, and I do not expect any more for this one. The machine
is not the problem.

Steve