Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

i

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w
solar panels and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up
to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and
one of those days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation
to also create a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost,
but just watching that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Are you factoring in the maintenance of the panels such as cleaning,
replacement as needed, etc.

How about battery (presuming you have them) replacement, etc?

If you are still ahead of the game in 10 years, then you must live somewhere
very sunny and very flat...

Here in NJ, it has been proven that until the cost of the components and the
maintenance come down a bit further, there is no savings to the end user and
probably not to the environment either. Basically, the end user is
fortifying the power company's infrastructure with their own investment of
funds. ...And that's why the power companies give some $ to home owners and
businesses to make such changes. They know the curve and know where the
money-making is for them.

....They can't very well build more power generation plants around here so
it's also their only hope to keep up as the older sites shut down, etc.

Places like AZ and NM, etc. can be worthwhile for the end user as long as
they keep the panels clean, the system maintained, etc.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://tinyurl.com/AutoDrill-Facebook

V8013-R

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w
solar panels and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up
to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and
one of those days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation
to also create a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost,
but just watching that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Are you factoring in the maintenance of the panels such as cleaning,
replacement as needed, etc.

How about battery (presuming you have them) replacement, etc?

If you are still ahead of the game in 10 years, then you must live somewhere
very sunny and very flat...

Here in NJ, it has been proven that until the cost of the components and the
maintenance come down a bit further, there is no savings to the end user and
probably not to the environment either. Basically, the end user is
fortifying the power company's infrastructure with their own investment of
funds. ...And that's why the power companies give some $ to home owners and
businesses to make such changes. They know the curve and know where the
money-making is for them.

....They can't very well build more power generation plants around here so
it's also their only hope to keep up as the older sites shut down, etc.

Places like AZ and NM, etc. can be worthwhile for the end user as long as
they keep the panels clean, the system maintained, etc.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://tinyurl.com/AutoDrill-Facebook

V8013-R

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:45:47 -0500, Ignoramus12838
wrote:

On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

PV is currently available at the lowest prices ever.
http://www.sunelec.com/ (not working when I checked it) As little as
$2 per watt. You should be able to make good use of this.
http://www.solar-estimate.org/index....lar-calculator
Customize the entries to reflect however much DIY reduction is
appropriate. The payout will still be long. If you shop well and keep
costs as low as possible, you should be able to get it down to ~10
years. Less if subsidies are available, although then you might be
limited to using approved contractors etc.

Maintenance costs are virtually zero. PV tends to be warrantied for 25
years, which tells us something about its reliability. Grid-tie
inverter life is less easy to be confident of, my own are 15 years
old.

Bottom line: anybody who wants to do it can, most would rather spend
their money on other stuff.

Wayne

"Ignoramus12838" wrote in message
...
On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar
panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to
6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also
create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

i
Well we are probably in the Sun Capital of the World. Inyokern California.
The panel array is 30 panels that occupy a 12X40 space starting 7' off the
ground and going up at a 20º angle. They form the roof of a car port. It
is snaggle toothed with two panels missing to allow light into existing
skylight panels. The cost before rebates and tax advantage was $46K which
included the steel structure for the carport. Out of pocket costs are
expected to be approx $26k. Panels have a relatively long warranty and are
expected to still be producing useable power in 25yrs. These are Sunpower
panels and as early as 0600 this morning I was seeing some 60w being
generated. Now at 0800 it is reading 1.9kw.
Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.
We are grid dependent and have no batteries. The future battery development
will probably let us change that and reduce our dependency on the grid. As
it stands now if the grid goes down, so does our solar power.
Another thing is the availability of what amounts to a zero interest loan
for one year. We are going to take advantage of that and keep our $26k
drawing interest until such time as the payment is due. To date we are out
$1k and making power.

Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w
solar panels and now have watched our power meter go backwards at
rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels generated more
than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover. Oh and we used
the solar installation to also create a car port. It may take a few
years to recover the cost, but just watching that meter go backwards
was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the main summer
a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same month last year was
$200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels are
guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4 weeks, as
the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

On Jul 15, 8:17*am, "Stu Fields" wrote:
"Ignoramus12838" wrote in message

...

On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) *We recently installed 30- 230w solar
panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to
6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of those
days had cloud cover. *Oh and we used the solar installation to also
create
a car port. *It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

i

Well we are probably in the Sun Capital of the World. *Inyokern California.
The panel array is 30 panels that occupy *a 12X40 space starting 7' off the
ground and going up at a 20º angle. *They form the roof of a car port.. *It
is snaggle toothed with two panels missing to allow light into existing
skylight panels. *The cost before rebates and tax advantage was $46K which
included the steel structure for the carport. *Out of pocket costs are
expected to be approx $26k. *Panels have a relatively long warranty and are
expected to still be producing useable power in 25yrs. *These are Sunpower
panels and as early as 0600 this morning I was seeing some 60w being
generated. *Now at 0800 it is reading 1.9kw.
Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. *If it only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. *Probably a good wind generator area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.
We are grid dependent and have no batteries. *The future battery development
will probably let us change that and reduce our dependency on the grid. *As
it stands now if the grid goes down, so does our solar power.
Another thing is the availability of what amounts to a zero interest loan
for one year. *We are going to take advantage of that and keep our $26k
drawing interest until such time as the payment is due. *To date we are out
$1k and making power.

Isn't Inyokern near China Lake? I remember going through Inyokern on a
return trip from LA on hwy 395.

Did you put the array on you insurance policy? You probably don't get
many thunderstorms with hail, but most of the rest of the country
does. I wonder what the insurance cost is for such an array?

One of my customers builds computer driven mounts for large solar
arrays in array farms. They claim up to 40% increase by being able to
continually adjust the array to follow the sun from sunrise to sunset,
365 days of the year. Earlier this week one of their staff brought in
a circuit board prototype kit. I asked him if the company had ever
considered a similar product for the home type installation. Said he
asked the same question when he started with the company. Answer was
the support costs were deemed too much for the price they would get.
Too bad. A similar 40% increase would really boost the return for your
installation.

Paul

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 10:25:28 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


Did you put the array on you insurance policy?

I mentioned it to my insurance company, no extra premium.

You probably don't get
many thunderstorms with hail, but most of the rest of the country
does. I wonder what the insurance cost is for such an array?

The glass is rated for some pretty big hail. Very low risk of damage.
If any insurance company charged somehing extra, it shouldn't be much.

One of my customers builds computer driven mounts for large solar
arrays in array farms. They claim up to 40% increase by being able to
continually adjust the array to follow the sun from sunrise to sunset,
365 days of the year. Earlier this week one of their staff brought in
a circuit board prototype kit. I asked him if the company had ever
considered a similar product for the home type installation. Said he
asked the same question when he started with the company. Answer was
the support costs were deemed too much for the price they would get.
Too bad. A similar 40% increase would really boost the return for your
installation.

Trackers are harder to justify these days now that PV costs so much
less. http://www.wattsun.com/ I have 3 arrays here, all on trackers.
An additional benefit for my battery-based setup is that production
starts earlier and ends later, which means that less of my total
consumption has to make a trip through the batteries. I get a similar
benefit from having a wind turbine to supplement the solar. Since the
wind frequently blows overnight, the batteries don't get as much
cycling. Those batteries are already 15 years old. Without the
trackers and the wind power I might have needed to replace the
batteries years ago.

Grid-tied systems that don't need batteries will gain less advantage
from tracking.

Wayne

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:36:08 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:

Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.


A losing deal anyway I figure it around here. PPL just raised their
rates 45% and it's still cheaper to buy it than to make it.

A school district here just spent $2.4 million on solar power, with a
900K grant from the state of PA. That leaves them 1.5M out of pocket,
they say they will make/save 85,000 bucks a year. That gives them a
break even at 17.6 years IF nothing ever needs repair or maintanance
on the whole system. Morons.

I can't find that article, but here's an even better one......on a
planned system.

from www.mcall.com

http://www.mcall.com/opinion/mc-lett...,5514410.story

The questionable or downright stupid use of tax dollars by area school
districts continues unabated during a period of stretched budgets and
increasing tax rates. The latest is the possible installation of solar
panels by the Nazareth Area School District.

The district proposes spending approximately $5.1 million, including,
according to a Morning Call report, approximately $3.2 million of
local taxpayer dollars, to build two solar plants projected to have a
27-year break-even period. This does not account for maintenance and
repair costs. Given that solar panels lose generating capacity over
time, it is highly likely that there really is no payback at all. If
there is an educational benefit to this project in line with the
mission of the school district, it is hard to understand.

This represents an exorbitant waste of taxpayer money on the state and
local levels. If we wish to strive toward energy efficiency, that is
fine. Let's not do so by expending resources on such an obvious
boondoggle.


Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

" wrote in message
...
On Jul 15, 8:17 am, "Stu Fields" wrote:
"Ignoramus12838" wrote in message

...

On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar
panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to
6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of
those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also
create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

i

Well we are probably in the Sun Capital of the World. Inyokern California.
The panel array is 30 panels that occupy a 12X40 space starting 7' off the
ground and going up at a 20º angle. They form the roof of a car port. It
is snaggle toothed with two panels missing to allow light into existing
skylight panels. The cost before rebates and tax advantage was $46K which
included the steel structure for the carport. Out of pocket costs are
expected to be approx $26k. Panels have a relatively long warranty and are
expected to still be producing useable power in 25yrs. These are Sunpower
panels and as early as 0600 this morning I was seeing some 60w being
generated. Now at 0800 it is reading 1.9kw.
Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it
only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.
We are grid dependent and have no batteries. The future battery
development
will probably let us change that and reduce our dependency on the grid. As
it stands now if the grid goes down, so does our solar power.
Another thing is the availability of what amounts to a zero interest loan
for one year. We are going to take advantage of that and keep our $26k
drawing interest until such time as the payment is due. To date we are out
$1k and making power.

Isn't Inyokern near China Lake? I remember going through Inyokern on a
return trip from LA on hwy 395.


Did you put the array on you insurance policy? You probably don't get
many thunderstorms with hail, but most of the rest of the country
does. I wonder what the insurance cost is for such an array?
One of my customers builds computer driven mounts for large solar
arrays in array farms. They claim up to 40% increase by being able to
continually adjust the array to follow the sun from sunrise to sunset,
365 days of the year. Earlier this week one of their staff brought in
a circuit board prototype kit. I asked him if the company had ever
considered a similar product for the home type installation. Said he
asked the same question when he started with the company. Answer was
the support costs were deemed too much for the price they would get.
Too bad. A similar 40% increase would really boost the return for your
installation.

Paul

Yep we're about 15miles west of China Lake.
We do not have any homeowners insurance and haven't had since about 86. Of
course we never had a mortgage. It was handbuilt over 1yr.

I used to work on computer driven radar mounts and can see where it would be
possible to build a tracking system, however, the time and cost would
certainly eat into the benefit of the 40% gain.
I would rather finish my kit helicopter and go flying.

stu

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w
solar panels and now have watched our power meter go backwards at
rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels generated more
than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover. Oh and we used
the solar installation to also create a car port. It may take a few
years to recover the cost, but just watching that meter go backwards
was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the main
summer a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same month last year
was $200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels are
guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4 weeks,
as the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

Charlie:
Thanks for the info. We'll be watching closely the panel production and
checking for dust. Usually, we get an evening wind that will probably keep
it pretty clean. At least the wind brings most of the loose dust around and
in my garage door.

Stu

"Randy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:36:08 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:

Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also
create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.


A losing deal anyway I figure it around here. PPL just raised their
rates 45% and it's still cheaper to buy it than to make it.

A school district here just spent $2.4 million on solar power, with a
900K grant from the state of PA. That leaves them 1.5M out of pocket,
they say they will make/save 85,000 bucks a year. That gives them a
break even at 17.6 years IF nothing ever needs repair or maintanance
on the whole system. Morons.

I can't find that article, but here's an even better one......on a
planned system.

from www.mcall.com

http://www.mcall.com/opinion/mc-lett...,5514410.story

The questionable or downright stupid use of tax dollars by area school
districts continues unabated during a period of stretched budgets and
increasing tax rates. The latest is the possible installation of solar
panels by the Nazareth Area School District.

The district proposes spending approximately $5.1 million, including,
according to a Morning Call report, approximately $3.2 million of
local taxpayer dollars, to build two solar plants projected to have a
27-year break-even period. This does not account for maintenance and
repair costs. Given that solar panels lose generating capacity over
time, it is highly likely that there really is no payback at all. If
there is an educational benefit to this project in line with the
mission of the school district, it is hard to understand.

This represents an exorbitant waste of taxpayer money on the state and
local levels. If we wish to strive toward energy efficiency, that is
fine. Let's not do so by expending resources on such an obvious
boondoggle.


Thank You,
Randy

Well Randy, you know that if you are spending someone elses money, the fine
print can get ignored. Just think how "Green" they can feel. In our case
we spent our own $ and with a ceramic kiln cooking some 50amps @220v over
night several times out of the year??
We are thinking about using the excess power to go back to a heat pump and
get away from the swamp cooler and the disgusting pads. $ value? Value of
better, more enjoyable use of my time?? Also the battery technology is
gaining ground to the point we may get off the grid completely. $ value??

Stu

The grid is your battery. Let the meter run backwards during the day,
let it run forwards at night. I have a friend who does this. His net
electric bill is zero, but he has power 24/7.

....Adn how much did his system cost? How much is maintenance per year on
average? Multiply the maintenance by two since everyone minimizes the
negatives of something they like... And now ask him what his bills were
before the install.

Calculate the amount of manufacturing effort that went into it all and the
effect on the environment the manufacturing had as compared to the same from
the power plant...

Most people find the net gain is not there unless they live in a very sunny
place.

Someone actually posted a map of the USA where it was profitable and where
it wasn't a few years ago. Wish I could find that now.

I hope your friend is ahead of the game, but if he is, I also bet he is in
open prarie country or the south / dessert and not a metro area like I am.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://tinyurl.com/AutoDrill-Facebook

V8013-R

Can I put those panels on the roof of my house, is that usually
permitted? Half of my slanted roof is facing south.

I also do not care about batteries, if I can reduce my electric bill,
I will be happy.

i

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Ignoramus12838" wrote in message
m...
On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar
panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to
6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also
create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

i
Well we are probably in the Sun Capital of the World. Inyokern California.
The panel array is 30 panels that occupy a 12X40 space starting 7' off the
ground and going up at a 20º angle. They form the roof of a car port. It
is snaggle toothed with two panels missing to allow light into existing
skylight panels. The cost before rebates and tax advantage was $46K which
included the steel structure for the carport. Out of pocket costs are
expected to be approx $26k. Panels have a relatively long warranty and are
expected to still be producing useable power in 25yrs. These are Sunpower
panels and as early as 0600 this morning I was seeing some 60w being
generated. Now at 0800 it is reading 1.9kw.
Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.
We are grid dependent and have no batteries. The future battery development
will probably let us change that and reduce our dependency on the grid. As
it stands now if the grid goes down, so does our solar power.
Another thing is the availability of what amounts to a zero interest loan
for one year. We are going to take advantage of that and keep our $26k
drawing interest until such time as the payment is due. To date we are out
$1k and making power.

Out of curiosity, why no battery bank? In your location..it would
appear to me that batteries would be nearly a requirement.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 10:15:10 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
wrote:

If you are still ahead of the game in 10 years, then you must live somewhere
very sunny and very flat...


Stu lives someplace VERY similar to Aridzona in climate and sun
availability.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Ignoramus12838 wrote:
Can I put those panels on the roof of my house, is that usually
permitted? Half of my slanted roof is facing south.

I also do not care about batteries, if I can reduce my electric bill,
I will be happy.

i

yes. they have to be south facing (in the northern hemisphere). i have a
flat roof southwest facing, and they are tipped up about 15 degrees. optimum
tilt is different depending upon your latitude. they can't be shaded by
anything (parts of the roof, chimney, trees, etc).

http://s587.photobucket.com/albums/s...t=IMG_7617.jpg

http://s587.photobucket.com/albums/s...t=IMG_7617.jpg

most common sold now for residential is grid-tie. it uses the grid for a
reference voltage (when the converter detects the grid not there, it shuts
off), and backfeeds through a 50a double breaker in my main panel. my
install has 2 seperate cutoffs so i can work on the panel, a large knife
switch installed between the panel meter and the solar meter, and a rotary
switch on the converter.

i'm on time of day metering, so sell to the power company at high day rate,
and most use is at the low night rate. i should get a check at the end of
the year for excess power generation unless i fire my 8kw kiln a lot more
than usual.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:11:56 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w
solar panels and now have watched our power meter go backwards at
rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels generated more
than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover. Oh and we used
the solar installation to also create a car port. It may take a few
years to recover the cost, but just watching that meter go backwards
was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the main
summer a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same month last year
was $200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels are
guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4 weeks,
as the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

Charlie:
Thanks for the info. We'll be watching closely the panel production and
checking for dust. Usually, we get an evening wind that will probably keep
it pretty clean. At least the wind brings most of the loose dust around and
in my garage door.

Stu


Question for both of you. If you had the option of putting those on a
tracker and having that in your yard and getting 40% more energy or
leave them static on the roof so that they are out of sight?

Looks like some states are coming around. Back when I was into solar
they charged you $5,000 for the phase synchro and paid you back $ 0.01
per KWH and charged you $0.12 and much more interested in wheeling and
dealing power across state lines, hmmm maybe Enron was a good thing.

BTW cooling them will make them more efficient and last longer. They
don't like to be over 100 F, good luck with that, I shudder, must get
up to 160F.

Someone was saying something about where the best areas are. Look
under isolation and radiation charts. Best in the US is Daget Ca. Part
of the reason I went to vegas was to do experiments, but found out it
is political not technological. I wouldn't believe a chart that says
it won't pay off in that location, too many factors involved.

SW

Sunworshipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:11:56 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill
was getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed
30- 230w solar panels and now have watched our power meter go
backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels
generated more than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover.
Oh and we used the solar installation to also create a car port.
It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the
main summer a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same
month last year was $200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels
are guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4
weeks, as the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

Charlie:
Thanks for the info. We'll be watching closely the panel production
and checking for dust. Usually, we get an evening wind that will
probably keep it pretty clean. At least the wind brings most of the
loose dust around and in my garage door.

Stu


Question for both of you. If you had the option of putting those on a
tracker and having that in your yard and getting 40% more energy or
leave them static on the roof so that they are out of sight?

one of our design requirements was invisiblity from the street. if they
pivot, they'd have to be a lot higher and not shade any of the neighboring
panels as they moved. i've seen large fields of panels in spain that self
track, but they're ground mounted.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Ignoramus12838" wrote in message
om...
On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar
panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to
6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of
those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also
create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

i
Well we are probably in the Sun Capital of the World. Inyokern
California.
The panel array is 30 panels that occupy a 12X40 space starting 7' off
the
ground and going up at a 20º angle. They form the roof of a car port. It
is snaggle toothed with two panels missing to allow light into existing
skylight panels. The cost before rebates and tax advantage was $46K which
included the steel structure for the carport. Out of pocket costs are
expected to be approx $26k. Panels have a relatively long warranty and
are
expected to still be producing useable power in 25yrs. These are Sunpower
panels and as early as 0600 this morning I was seeing some 60w being
generated. Now at 0800 it is reading 1.9kw.
Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it
only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator
area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.
We are grid dependent and have no batteries. The future battery
development
will probably let us change that and reduce our dependency on the grid.
As
it stands now if the grid goes down, so does our solar power.
Another thing is the availability of what amounts to a zero interest loan
for one year. We are going to take advantage of that and keep our $26k
drawing interest until such time as the payment is due. To date we are
out
$1k and making power.

Out of curiosity, why no battery bank? In your location..it would
appear to me that batteries would be nearly a requirement.

Gunner
Hello Gunner. The cost of the batteries, the maintenance costs to go
completely off the grid aren't in our play book yet. However we are
tracking some solid sodium battery technology that could change our system.

"Sunworshipper" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:11:56 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w
solar panels and now have watched our power meter go backwards at
rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels generated more
than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover. Oh and we used
the solar installation to also create a car port. It may take a few
years to recover the cost, but just watching that meter go backwards
was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the main
summer a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same month last
year
was $200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels are
guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4
weeks,
as the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

Charlie:
Thanks for the info. We'll be watching closely the panel production and
checking for dust. Usually, we get an evening wind that will probably
keep
it pretty clean. At least the wind brings most of the loose dust around
and
in my garage door.

Stu


Question for both of you. If you had the option of putting those on a
tracker and having that in your yard and getting 40% more energy or
leave them static on the roof so that they are out of sight?

Looks like some states are coming around. Back when I was into solar
they charged you $5,000 for the phase synchro and paid you back $ 0.01
per KWH and charged you $0.12 and much more interested in wheeling and
dealing power across state lines, hmmm maybe Enron was a good thing.

BTW cooling them will make them more efficient and last longer. They
don't like to be over 100 F, good luck with that, I shudder, must get
up to 160F.

Someone was saying something about where the best areas are. Look
under isolation and radiation charts. Best in the US is Daget Ca. Part
of the reason I went to vegas was to do experiments, but found out it
is political not technological. I wouldn't believe a chart that says
it won't pay off in that location, too many factors involved.

SW

Would have to analyze the tracker. We get a lot of dirt blowing that would
raise hell with gear drives. There is obviously a trade off between
increased production and increased system cost. The tracker will cost more
in maintenance??? Right now we have no moving parts.

"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
...
The grid is your battery. Let the meter run backwards during the day,
let it run forwards at night. I have a friend who does this. His net
electric bill is zero, but he has power 24/7.

...Adn how much did his system cost? How much is maintenance per year on
average? Multiply the maintenance by two since everyone minimizes the
negatives of something they like... And now ask him what his bills were
before the install.

Calculate the amount of manufacturing effort that went into it all and the
effect on the environment the manufacturing had as compared to the same
from the power plant...

Most people find the net gain is not there unless they live in a very
sunny place.

Someone actually posted a map of the USA where it was profitable and where
it wasn't a few years ago. Wish I could find that now.

I hope your friend is ahead of the game, but if he is, I also bet he is in
open prarie country or the south / dessert and not a metro area like I am.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://tinyurl.com/AutoDrill-Facebook

V8013-R
Joe we have heard of some efficiencies getting close to 50% in the lab. If
they can get them into the field, the individuals in the metro areas may
find them more usefull. It is said that the efficiency is only important if
you have limited space, however, at 0600 this morning our system was showing
56w and while I could see the sun, the angle to the panels was close to
zero. Our efficiency helps there and yes we live in an area that must get
370 days/yr of sun. Right now at 19:43 with complete cloud coverage we are
still showing 105w. Total for the day 86kwh. about twice our previous
daily average. I wonder what SCE will pay for the power we put into the
grid??

On Jul 15, 7:37*pm, "Stu Fields" wrote:


Would have to analyze the tracker. *We get a lot of dirt blowing that would
raise hell with gear drives. *There is obviously a trade off between
increased production and increased system cost. *The tracker will cost more
in maintenance??? *Right now we have no moving parts.

Since I haven't signed any kind of non-disclosure, here is the web
site URL for my PV tracking customer:

http://www.pvtrackers.com/

Paul

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:33:29 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Ignoramus12838" wrote in message
news:mPWdnToWc8KWjKLRnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@giganews. com...
On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar
panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to
6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of
those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also
create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

i
Well we are probably in the Sun Capital of the World. Inyokern
California.
The panel array is 30 panels that occupy a 12X40 space starting 7' off
the
ground and going up at a 20º angle. They form the roof of a car port. It
is snaggle toothed with two panels missing to allow light into existing
skylight panels. The cost before rebates and tax advantage was $46K which
included the steel structure for the carport. Out of pocket costs are
expected to be approx $26k. Panels have a relatively long warranty and
are
expected to still be producing useable power in 25yrs. These are Sunpower
panels and as early as 0600 this morning I was seeing some 60w being
generated. Now at 0800 it is reading 1.9kw.
Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it
only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator
area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.
We are grid dependent and have no batteries. The future battery
development
will probably let us change that and reduce our dependency on the grid.
As
it stands now if the grid goes down, so does our solar power.
Another thing is the availability of what amounts to a zero interest loan
for one year. We are going to take advantage of that and keep our $26k
drawing interest until such time as the payment is due. To date we are
out
$1k and making power.

Out of curiosity, why no battery bank? In your location..it would
appear to me that batteries would be nearly a requirement.

Gunner
Hello Gunner. The cost of the batteries, the maintenance costs to go
completely off the grid aren't in our play book yet. However we are
tracking some solid sodium battery technology that could change our system.

Thats pretty new stuff, isnt it?

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
...
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w
solar panels and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates
up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh
and one of those days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar
installation to also create a car port. It may take a few years to
recover the cost, but just watching that meter go backwards was worth
quite a bit.

Are you factoring in the maintenance of the panels such as cleaning,
replacement as needed, etc.

How about battery (presuming you have them) replacement, etc?

If you are still ahead of the game in 10 years, then you must live
somewhere very sunny and very flat...

Here in NJ, it has been proven that until the cost of the components and
the maintenance come down a bit further, there is no savings to the end
user and probably not to the environment either. Basically, the end user
is fortifying the power company's infrastructure with their own investment
of funds. ...

Dats a very astute observation!!!
Once again, the consumer takes it in the ass -- and once again, by their own
hand!
Diabolically elegant, even!!!

I did some thumbnail calcs on alt.home.repair on Solar Cell ROIs, and took
quite a bit of **** from some of the assholes over there.
It started when one astute fellow pointed out that the solar cells
themselves are not forever, and have a life expectancy of only about 20
years.

I said to myself, Holy ****, and thusly did those thumbnail calcs, and came
back with like 75 years ROI!!! Or worse!!!
Iow, you NEVER get your money back, in most cases.

Sorta like a Prius vs. a Honda Fit.... You will NEVER recoup all those
extra bucks spent on a Prius, unless gas goes to $12/gal -- which I predict
it will. Nine of those dollars will proly be a tax, to clean up BP's oil
spill.

And keep in mind, your meter may whiz backwards, but the utility ain't
paying you *anywhere near* what you are paying them, per kWhr. Not even
1/10th, I'll bet...

And plus, given the filings/permits required for licensed hookups, etc etc,
you will likely trigger a "taxable event" or re-assessment on yer hovel,
since you took the trouble to improve said hovel.

It would be inneresting to see what some of the rcm brainiacs calc out for a
REAL ROI, factoring in a lifespan of the cells themselves.

N'Yawkers are taking it in the ass with their utility bills. ConnEd lists
the kWhr rate at about 10c, but when you get done, with all their effing
"delivery and service" charges, the effing rate is about 30c kWhr.

Heh, mind**** leads to ass****, once again.

Don't get me wrong, ahma Big Greenie, but I've also got a very sore ass.

--
EA





And that's why the power companies give some $ to home owners and
businesses to make such changes. They know the curve and know where the
money-making is for them.

...They can't very well build more power generation plants around here so
it's also their only hope to keep up as the older sites shut down, etc.

Places like AZ and NM, etc. can be worthwhile for the end user as long as
they keep the panels clean, the system maintained, etc.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://tinyurl.com/AutoDrill-Facebook

V8013-R

On Jul 15, 10:37*pm, "Stu Fields" wrote:
...
Would have to analyze the tracker. *We get a lot of dirt blowing that would
raise hell with gear drives. *There is obviously a trade off between
increased production and increased system cost. *The tracker will cost more
in maintenance??? *Right now we have no moving parts.

What sort of drive mechanism should a DIYer look for that has proven
to last?

The only similar experience I have is with a 1950's antenna rotator,
which is weatherproof, reliable and easy to maintain but not very
powerful.

I have several hand-powered rope and pulley systems around the house
that have held up well to the weather. Some use home-made imitations
of (expensive) marine hardware, mainly in brass and stainless with
polyester rope or steel cable. The rope stretches enough to absorb the
shock of falling branches well. Only ice storms jam them, and only
until the sun comes back out.

The most exposed ones are the clotheslines which extend back 50 feet
under tall trees. Cheap clothesline rope and pulleys last for many
years despite ice storms and branches.

jsw

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:33:29 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Ignoramus12838" wrote in message
news:mPWdnToWc8KWjKLRnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@giganews .com...
On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar
panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to
6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of
those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also
create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

i
Well we are probably in the Sun Capital of the World. Inyokern
California.
The panel array is 30 panels that occupy a 12X40 space starting 7' off
the
ground and going up at a 20º angle. They form the roof of a car port.
It
is snaggle toothed with two panels missing to allow light into existing
skylight panels. The cost before rebates and tax advantage was $46K
which
included the steel structure for the carport. Out of pocket costs are
expected to be approx $26k. Panels have a relatively long warranty and
are
expected to still be producing useable power in 25yrs. These are
Sunpower
panels and as early as 0600 this morning I was seeing some 60w being
generated. Now at 0800 it is reading 1.9kw.
Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it
only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator
area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.
We are grid dependent and have no batteries. The future battery
development
will probably let us change that and reduce our dependency on the grid.
As
it stands now if the grid goes down, so does our solar power.
Another thing is the availability of what amounts to a zero interest
loan
for one year. We are going to take advantage of that and keep our $26k
drawing interest until such time as the payment is due. To date we are
out
$1k and making power.

Out of curiosity, why no battery bank? In your location..it would
appear to me that batteries would be nearly a requirement.

Gunner
Hello Gunner. The cost of the batteries, the maintenance costs to go
completely off the grid aren't in our play book yet. However we are
tracking some solid sodium battery technology that could change our
system.

Thats pretty new stuff, isnt it?

Gunner

Gunner: It is new stuff coming from Coors!! Evidently Coors has a ceramics
lab that is more exciting than their beer. Initial data seems to have a
15kw battery the size of a small refrigerator that can be discharged and
charged every day for 10yrs. Estimated price: $2,000. This is some
technology that we are following. With development, in both the battery and
impoved solar cell efficiencies, apartments living off the grid may be
possible.

" wrote in message
...
On Jul 15, 7:37 pm, "Stu Fields" wrote:


Would have to analyze the tracker. We get a lot of dirt blowing that would
raise hell with gear drives. There is obviously a trade off between
increased production and increased system cost. The tracker will cost more
in maintenance??? Right now we have no moving parts.

Since I haven't signed any kind of non-disclosure, here is the web
site URL for my PV tracking customer:

http://www.pvtrackers.com/

Paul

Paul: Thanks for the link. The photos don't look like a very sturdy
installation. I'm going to ask them about wind loading. We have seen 80mph
winds here in the desert and 50mph gusts aren't unusual.
It does look like we could get more from less # panels. However, we would
lose our car port..tee hee.
I'll ask them about the cost of one of their 20 panel trackers.
Thanks again for the link

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:42:25 -0700, "chaniarts"
wrote:

Sunworshipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:11:56 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill
was getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed
30- 230w solar panels and now have watched our power meter go
backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels
generated more than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover.
Oh and we used the solar installation to also create a car port.
It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the
main summer a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same
month last year was $200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels
are guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4
weeks, as the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

Charlie:
Thanks for the info. We'll be watching closely the panel production
and checking for dust. Usually, we get an evening wind that will
probably keep it pretty clean. At least the wind brings most of the
loose dust around and in my garage door.

Stu


Question for both of you. If you had the option of putting those on a
tracker and having that in your yard and getting 40% more energy or
leave them static on the roof so that they are out of sight?

one of our design requirements was invisiblity from the street. if they
pivot, they'd have to be a lot higher and not shade any of the neighboring
panels as they moved. i've seen large fields of panels in spain that self
track, but they're ground mounted.



Marketing research, love it. So a thumbs down. From the picture(s)
you could put them on one mount. BTW, was that around 8,000kb per
picture? Seemed to load awfully slow. Have you really been to Spain or
are ya taking a jab about the billion $ to Spain instead of a US
company? Thanks for the input.

SW

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:37:12 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"Sunworshipper" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:11:56 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w
solar panels and now have watched our power meter go backwards at
rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels generated more
than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover. Oh and we used
the solar installation to also create a car port. It may take a few
years to recover the cost, but just watching that meter go backwards
was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the main
summer a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same month last
year
was $200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels are
guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4
weeks,
as the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

Charlie:
Thanks for the info. We'll be watching closely the panel production and
checking for dust. Usually, we get an evening wind that will probably
keep
it pretty clean. At least the wind brings most of the loose dust around
and
in my garage door.

Stu


Question for both of you. If you had the option of putting those on a
tracker and having that in your yard and getting 40% more energy or
leave them static on the roof so that they are out of sight?

Looks like some states are coming around. Back when I was into solar
they charged you $5,000 for the phase synchro and paid you back $ 0.01
per KWH and charged you $0.12 and much more interested in wheeling and
dealing power across state lines, hmmm maybe Enron was a good thing.

BTW cooling them will make them more efficient and last longer. They
don't like to be over 100 F, good luck with that, I shudder, must get
up to 160F.

Someone was saying something about where the best areas are. Look
under isolation and radiation charts. Best in the US is Daget Ca. Part
of the reason I went to vegas was to do experiments, but found out it
is political not technological. I wouldn't believe a chart that says
it won't pay off in that location, too many factors involved.

SW

Would have to analyze the tracker. We get a lot of dirt blowing that would
raise hell with gear drives. There is obviously a trade off between
increased production and increased system cost. The tracker will cost more
in maintenance??? Right now we have no moving parts.


And your marketing research seems to be a thumbs sideways, my salesman
will be banging on your door any second, just kidding. Sand has been
in the design factor all along, no problem. The tracker cost way less
per watt than what the panels cost per watt to add more statically.
Not sure about maintenance for sure yet, maybe grease it once a year.
That and wash the guidance system while cleaning what ever is on the
platform. Thanks for the input.

SW

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:23:17 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"Randy" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:36:08 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:

Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also
create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.


A losing deal anyway I figure it around here. PPL just raised their
rates 45% and it's still cheaper to buy it than to make it.

A school district here just spent $2.4 million on solar power, with a
900K grant from the state of PA. That leaves them 1.5M out of pocket,
they say they will make/save 85,000 bucks a year. That gives them a
break even at 17.6 years IF nothing ever needs repair or maintanance
on the whole system. Morons.

I can't find that article, but here's an even better one......on a
planned system.

from www.mcall.com

http://www.mcall.com/opinion/mc-lett...,5514410.story

The questionable or downright stupid use of tax dollars by area school
districts continues unabated during a period of stretched budgets and
increasing tax rates. The latest is the possible installation of solar
panels by the Nazareth Area School District.

The district proposes spending approximately $5.1 million, including,
according to a Morning Call report, approximately $3.2 million of
local taxpayer dollars, to build two solar plants projected to have a
27-year break-even period. This does not account for maintenance and
repair costs. Given that solar panels lose generating capacity over
time, it is highly likely that there really is no payback at all. If
there is an educational benefit to this project in line with the
mission of the school district, it is hard to understand.

This represents an exorbitant waste of taxpayer money on the state and
local levels. If we wish to strive toward energy efficiency, that is
fine. Let's not do so by expending resources on such an obvious
boondoggle.


Thank You,
Randy

Well Randy, you know that if you are spending someone elses money, the fine
print can get ignored. Just think how "Green" they can feel. In our case
we spent our own $ and with a ceramic kiln cooking some 50amps @220v over
night several times out of the year??
We are thinking about using the excess power to go back to a heat pump and
get away from the swamp cooler and the disgusting pads. $ value? Value of
better, more enjoyable use of my time?? Also the battery technology is
gaining ground to the point we may get off the grid completely. $ value??

Stu


Even the best batteries have a life span and will need replacement.
And as they get older their capacity diminishes.

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:03:18 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:


one astute fellow pointed out that the solar cells
themselves are not forever, and have a life expectancy of only about 20
years.

He's an astute fellow in the same way that GW was the environmental
president.
"Nowadays, standard monocrystalline and polycrystalline solar panels
both have established proven track records with life expectancies that
exceed 40 years. Manufacturers of these proven technologies are now
comfortable offering warranties of 25 years or more"
http://partsonsale.com/gridtiequestions.html

I said to myself, Holy ****, and thusly did those thumbnail calcs, and came
back with like 75 years ROI!!! Or worse!!!


Go here
http://www.solar-estimate.org/index....nal_estimator=.
Enter your info. Change the cost per W to reflect your ability to pay
less than full-boat retail. This article
http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/mai... 9&TM=37926.71
indicates that the average retail in my area is $5.

Wayne

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:43:16 -0500, Ignoramus12838
wrote:

Can I put those panels on the roof of my house, is that usually
permitted? Half of my slanted roof is facing south.

I also do not care about batteries, if I can reduce my electric bill,
I will be happy.

i

Make sure your roof is in good shape before you install PV panels.
Most roofers will require you to have the panels removed before they
will work on your roof. Removal and reinstallation can be expensive.

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

Sunworshipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:42:25 -0700, "chaniarts"
wrote:

Sunworshipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:11:56 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill
was getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed
30- 230w solar panels and now have watched our power meter go
backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels
generated more than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover.
Oh and we used the solar installation to also create a car port.
It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the
main summer a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same
month last year was $200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels
are guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4
weeks, as the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

Charlie:
Thanks for the info. We'll be watching closely the panel
production and checking for dust. Usually, we get an evening wind
that will probably keep it pretty clean. At least the wind brings
most of the loose dust around and in my garage door.

Stu


Question for both of you. If you had the option of putting those
on a tracker and having that in your yard and getting 40% more
energy or leave them static on the roof so that they are out of
sight?

one of our design requirements was invisiblity from the street. if
they pivot, they'd have to be a lot higher and not shade any of the
neighboring panels as they moved. i've seen large fields of panels
in spain that self track, but they're ground mounted.



Marketing research, love it. So a thumbs down. From the picture(s)
you could put them on one mount. BTW, was that around 8,000kb per
picture? Seemed to load awfully slow. Have you really been to Spain or
are ya taking a jab about the billion $ to Spain instead of a US
company? Thanks for the input.

SW

they were a 1mb picture when i uploaded them, i have no idea what
picturetrail did to them. i assumed that they did some sort of compression
on them.

44 panels on one mount? that would be pretty big and tall, if it had to
track both dawn and sunset. furthermore, since my house faces sw, it would
have to be in the front yard. that would definitely be a nogo by swmbo.

yes, i recently spent 1.5 weeks driving around the south of spain. they are
going big into solar cells. i saw acres of panel installations. few were
trackers; pedestal mounted for the most part. most though were fixed
inclination, looked around 25 degrees or so.

Randy wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:43:16 -0500, Ignoramus12838
wrote:

Can I put those panels on the roof of my house, is that usually
permitted? Half of my slanted roof is facing south.

I also do not care about batteries, if I can reduce my electric bill,
I will be happy.

i

Make sure your roof is in good shape before you install PV panels.
Most roofers will require you to have the panels removed before they
will work on your roof. Removal and reinstallation can be expensive.

depending upon installation method, it may only be a matter of unplugging a
patch cord and loosening 4 bolts for removal. the supports can be treated as
simple roof penetrations.

"Stu Fields" on Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.

This is one of those questions I have, why does a wind turbine
_have_ to look like a airplane propeller?
I keep thinking of the roof top 'turbines' used to draw hot air
out of an attic space. So it seems to me that it would not be that
difficult to build a "squirrel cage" fan on it's side so that the axis
is vertical. If you want, you could make a pivoting shroud to open
into the wind. Might want to make the intake 'larger' than the exit,
get a little boost ...



--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Sunworshipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:42:25 -0700, "chaniarts"
wrote:

Sunworshipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:11:56 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill
was getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed
30- 230w solar panels and now have watched our power meter go
backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels
generated more than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover.
Oh and we used the solar installation to also create a car port.
It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the
main summer a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same
month last year was $200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels
are guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4
weeks, as the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

Charlie:
Thanks for the info. We'll be watching closely the panel
production and checking for dust. Usually, we get an evening wind
that will probably keep it pretty clean. At least the wind brings
most of the loose dust around and in my garage door.

Stu


Question for both of you. If you had the option of putting those
on a tracker and having that in your yard and getting 40% more
energy or leave them static on the roof so that they are out of
sight?

one of our design requirements was invisiblity from the street. if
they pivot, they'd have to be a lot higher and not shade any of the
neighboring panels as they moved. i've seen large fields of panels
in spain that self track, but they're ground mounted.



Marketing research, love it. So a thumbs down. From the picture(s)
you could put them on one mount. BTW, was that around 8,000kb per
picture? Seemed to load awfully slow. Have you really been to Spain or
are ya taking a jab about the billion $ to Spain instead of a US
company? Thanks for the input.

SW

they were a 1mb picture when i uploaded them, i have no idea what
picturetrail did to them. i assumed that they did some sort of compression
on them.

44 panels on one mount? that would be pretty big and tall, if it had to
track both dawn and sunset. furthermore, since my house faces sw, it would
have to be in the front yard. that would definitely be a nogo by swmbo.

yes, i recently spent 1.5 weeks driving around the south of spain. they
are going big into solar cells. i saw acres of panel installations. few
were trackers; pedestal mounted for the most part. most though were fixed
inclination, looked around 25 degrees or so.

Just saw an announcement where DOE is looking to fund research in Static PV
concentrator... Also battery development is proceeding.
Now most of the time I execute a good idea after its time. Did I this time
execute before its time??? Well as usual, "Time will Tell". Present reading
@10:32 is 4.6kw and 9.0kwh so far today. Life time production to date:
265kwh. We are at 5.5 days for an average of 48kwh/day which is more than
our avg. consumption. Look out Utilities commission there is a new power
generation plant in existence. We might be able to sell an average of
2kwh/day. At our rates that would be $0.48/day except they ain't going to
buy at the same rate that they sell. I'm the only one that uses that
business model.

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Stu Fields" on Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it
only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator
area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.

This is one of those questions I have, why does a wind turbine
_have_ to look like a airplane propeller?
I keep thinking of the roof top 'turbines' used to draw hot air
out of an attic space. So it seems to me that it would not be that
difficult to build a "squirrel cage" fan on it's side so that the axis
is vertical. If you want, you could make a pivoting shroud to open
into the wind. Might want to make the intake 'larger' than the exit,
get a little boost ...

There are several types of vertical-shaft turbines, including some that draw
air in at the bottom of a column and exhaust it at the top. One type uses
solar energy to heat the column and force the draft.

But more common vertical-shaft types are the Darrieus and Savonius rotors.
The latter is a simple drag rotor, like an anemometer, and designs are
available that have an efficiency of 16%. A conventional, horizontal-shaft
turbine averages around 35% at best. This is disregarding a lot of physics,
including the Betz limit, which the technoids will now jump on and use to
complicate the issue beyond all recognition. g

Savonius rotors are fun to build and make a nice hobby project, including a
rare-earth-magnet alternator you can make from junk, and use to generate
20W - 50W in modest sizes. (Don't put cores in the alternator poles or
you'll get a nasty cogging effect that makes them hard to start.) They're
good in gusty conditions, compared to other types.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:41:09
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
.. .
"Stu Fields" on Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it
only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator
area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.

This is one of those questions I have, why does a wind turbine
_have_ to look like a airplane propeller?
I keep thinking of the roof top 'turbines' used to draw hot air
out of an attic space. So it seems to me that it would not be that
difficult to build a "squirrel cage" fan on it's side so that the axis
is vertical. If you want, you could make a pivoting shroud to open
into the wind. Might want to make the intake 'larger' than the exit,
get a little boost ...

There are several types of vertical-shaft turbines, including some that draw
air in at the bottom of a column and exhaust it at the top. One type uses
solar energy to heat the column and force the draft.

But more common vertical-shaft types are the Darrieus and Savonius rotors.
The latter is a simple drag rotor, like an anemometer, and designs are
available that have an efficiency of 16%. A conventional, horizontal-shaft
turbine averages around 35% at best. This is disregarding a lot of physics,
including the Betz limit, which the technoids will now jump on and use to
complicate the issue beyond all recognition. g

Savonius rotors are fun to build and make a nice hobby project, including a
rare-earth-magnet alternator you can make from junk, and use to generate
20W - 50W in modest sizes. (Don't put cores in the alternator poles or
you'll get a nasty cogging effect that makes them hard to start.) They're
good in gusty conditions, compared to other types.

Cool.

I'd build one, but I get so much "windshadow" from the trees,
hills, (I can see the wind blowing 'uyp there' - and none of it down
here) and whatnot ... maybe I'll make a steam engine.


pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!