"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:41:09
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
. ..
"Stu Fields" on Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it
only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator
area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.

This is one of those questions I have, why does a wind turbine
_have_ to look like a airplane propeller?
I keep thinking of the roof top 'turbines' used to draw hot air
out of an attic space. So it seems to me that it would not be that
difficult to build a "squirrel cage" fan on it's side so that the axis
is vertical. If you want, you could make a pivoting shroud to open
into the wind. Might want to make the intake 'larger' than the exit,
get a little boost ...

There are several types of vertical-shaft turbines, including some that
draw
air in at the bottom of a column and exhaust it at the top. One type uses
solar energy to heat the column and force the draft.

But more common vertical-shaft types are the Darrieus and Savonius rotors.
The latter is a simple drag rotor, like an anemometer, and designs are
available that have an efficiency of 16%. A conventional, horizontal-shaft
turbine averages around 35% at best. This is disregarding a lot of
physics,
including the Betz limit, which the technoids will now jump on and use to
complicate the issue beyond all recognition. g

Savonius rotors are fun to build and make a nice hobby project, including
a
rare-earth-magnet alternator you can make from junk, and use to generate
20W - 50W in modest sizes. (Don't put cores in the alternator poles or
you'll get a nasty cogging effect that makes them hard to start.) They're
good in gusty conditions, compared to other types.

Cool.

I'd build one, but I get so much "windshadow" from the trees,
hills, (I can see the wind blowing 'uyp there' - and none of it down
here) and whatnot ... maybe I'll make a steam engine.


pyotr

Or try a Stirling, if you just want a small project. No pressure gauges, no
feed pumps, no blowups, no boiler cleaning...

--
Ed Huntress

I think tracking mechanisms can be as complicated as one cares to go. A TEFC
AC or DC gearmotor or a C-band satellite dish "jack" linear actuator could
be sources of power.

When I was looking at various solar devices online years ago (just out of
curiosity) there were fairly simple motorized trackers, and others
controlled by software on a PC or a home-built circuit, and these were just
DIY setups.

I think there is a lot of gear available for amateur astronomer telescopes
which could possibly be used as a building block for a tracking system.

--
WB
..........


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

What sort of drive mechanism should a DIYer look for that has proven
to last?

The only similar experience I have is with a 1950's antenna rotator,
which is weatherproof, reliable and easy to maintain but not very
powerful.

I have several hand-powered rope and pulley systems around the house
that have held up well to the weather. Some use home-made imitations
of (expensive) marine hardware, mainly in brass and stainless with
polyester rope or steel cable. The rope stretches enough to absorb the
shock of falling branches well. Only ice storms jam them, and only
until the sun comes back out.

The most exposed ones are the clotheslines which extend back 50 feet
under tall trees. Cheap clothesline rope and pulleys last for many
years despite ice storms and branches.

jsw

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:42:13 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
.. .
"Ed Huntress" on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:41:09
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Stu Fields" on Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it
only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator
area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.

This is one of those questions I have, why does a wind turbine
_have_ to look like a airplane propeller?
I keep thinking of the roof top 'turbines' used to draw hot air
out of an attic space. So it seems to me that it would not be that
difficult to build a "squirrel cage" fan on it's side so that the axis
is vertical. If you want, you could make a pivoting shroud to open
into the wind. Might want to make the intake 'larger' than the exit,
get a little boost ...

There are several types of vertical-shaft turbines, including some that
draw
air in at the bottom of a column and exhaust it at the top. One type uses
solar energy to heat the column and force the draft.

But more common vertical-shaft types are the Darrieus and Savonius rotors.
The latter is a simple drag rotor, like an anemometer, and designs are
available that have an efficiency of 16%. A conventional, horizontal-shaft
turbine averages around 35% at best. This is disregarding a lot of
physics,
including the Betz limit, which the technoids will now jump on and use to
complicate the issue beyond all recognition. g

Savonius rotors are fun to build and make a nice hobby project, including
a
rare-earth-magnet alternator you can make from junk, and use to generate
20W - 50W in modest sizes. (Don't put cores in the alternator poles or
you'll get a nasty cogging effect that makes them hard to start.) They're
good in gusty conditions, compared to other types.

Cool.

I'd build one, but I get so much "windshadow" from the trees,
hills, (I can see the wind blowing 'uyp there' - and none of it down
here) and whatnot ... maybe I'll make a steam engine.


pyotr

Or try a Stirling, if you just want a small project. No pressure gauges, no
feed pumps, no blowups, no boiler cleaning...

I saw a cool one just today on a video, used a magnet for a piston and
copier toner for the sealing ring in a glass tube. Now that is
thinking !

As for the wind power part. Anyone know what the pressure front is
called? Like how the air is turbulent upwind of a building that snow
banks are eaten away to the ground. Or maybe how the grass bends over
on the side of the road before the vehicle gets there. Subsonic
pressure front? I'd like to read up on it if I could cause the wind
blows here quite well at times, was thinking of DC lights for the shop
so the wife doesn't bitch about having lots of light.

SW

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:38:18 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Sunworshipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:42:25 -0700, "chaniarts"
wrote:

Sunworshipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:11:56 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill
was getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed
30- 230w solar panels and now have watched our power meter go
backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels
generated more than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover.
Oh and we used the solar installation to also create a car port.
It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the
main summer a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same
month last year was $200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels
are guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4
weeks, as the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

Charlie:
Thanks for the info. We'll be watching closely the panel
production and checking for dust. Usually, we get an evening wind
that will probably keep it pretty clean. At least the wind brings
most of the loose dust around and in my garage door.

Stu


Question for both of you. If you had the option of putting those
on a tracker and having that in your yard and getting 40% more
energy or leave them static on the roof so that they are out of
sight?

one of our design requirements was invisiblity from the street. if
they pivot, they'd have to be a lot higher and not shade any of the
neighboring panels as they moved. i've seen large fields of panels
in spain that self track, but they're ground mounted.



Marketing research, love it. So a thumbs down. From the picture(s)
you could put them on one mount. BTW, was that around 8,000kb per
picture? Seemed to load awfully slow. Have you really been to Spain or
are ya taking a jab about the billion $ to Spain instead of a US
company? Thanks for the input.

SW

they were a 1mb picture when i uploaded them, i have no idea what
picturetrail did to them. i assumed that they did some sort of compression
on them.

44 panels on one mount? that would be pretty big and tall, if it had to
track both dawn and sunset. furthermore, since my house faces sw, it would
have to be in the front yard. that would definitely be a nogo by swmbo.

yes, i recently spent 1.5 weeks driving around the south of spain. they
are going big into solar cells. i saw acres of panel installations. few
were trackers; pedestal mounted for the most part. most though were fixed
inclination, looked around 25 degrees or so.

Just saw an announcement where DOE is looking to fund research in Static PV
concentrator... Also battery development is proceeding.
Now most of the time I execute a good idea after its time. Did I this time
execute before its time??? Well as usual, "Time will Tell". Present reading
@10:32 is 4.6kw and 9.0kwh so far today. Life time production to date:
265kwh. We are at 5.5 days for an average of 48kwh/day which is more than
our avg. consumption. Look out Utilities commission there is a new power
generation plant in existence. We might be able to sell an average of
2kwh/day. At our rates that would be $0.48/day except they ain't going to
buy at the same rate that they sell. I'm the only one that uses that
business model.



Static PV concentrator?

Your not serious? Half mirrored spheres with suspended small costly
PV cells... Sounds like them.

SW

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 05:52:45 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:33:29 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Ignoramus12838" wrote in message
news:mPWdnToWc8KWjKLRnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@giganew s.com...
On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar
panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to
6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of
those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to also
create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

i
Well we are probably in the Sun Capital of the World. Inyokern
California.
The panel array is 30 panels that occupy a 12X40 space starting 7' off
the
ground and going up at a 20º angle. They form the roof of a car port.
It
is snaggle toothed with two panels missing to allow light into existing
skylight panels. The cost before rebates and tax advantage was $46K
which
included the steel structure for the carport. Out of pocket costs are
expected to be approx $26k. Panels have a relatively long warranty and
are
expected to still be producing useable power in 25yrs. These are
Sunpower
panels and as early as 0600 this morning I was seeing some 60w being
generated. Now at 0800 it is reading 1.9kw.
Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it
only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator
area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.
We are grid dependent and have no batteries. The future battery
development
will probably let us change that and reduce our dependency on the grid.
As
it stands now if the grid goes down, so does our solar power.
Another thing is the availability of what amounts to a zero interest
loan
for one year. We are going to take advantage of that and keep our $26k
drawing interest until such time as the payment is due. To date we are
out
$1k and making power.

Out of curiosity, why no battery bank? In your location..it would
appear to me that batteries would be nearly a requirement.

Gunner
Hello Gunner. The cost of the batteries, the maintenance costs to go
completely off the grid aren't in our play book yet. However we are
tracking some solid sodium battery technology that could change our
system.

Thats pretty new stuff, isnt it?

Gunner

Gunner: It is new stuff coming from Coors!! Evidently Coors has a ceramics
lab that is more exciting than their beer. Initial data seems to have a
15kw battery the size of a small refrigerator that can be discharged and
charged every day for 10yrs. Estimated price: $2,000. This is some
technology that we are following. With development, in both the battery and
impoved solar cell efficiencies, apartments living off the grid may be
possible.

No ****?!!!

Thats a hell of a battery and if it has the life span...we are indeed
living in the beginning of a new age.

Got any links??

This is indeed interesting!!

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Ed Huntress" on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:42:13
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


I'd build one, but I get so much "windshadow" from the trees,
hills, (I can see the wind blowing 'uyp there' - and none of it down
here) and whatnot ... maybe I'll make a steam engine.


pyotr

Or try a Stirling, if you just want a small project. No pressure gauges, no
feed pumps, no blowups, no boiler cleaning...

Oh, but where's the fun in that?

I was thinking a small one. Maybe made of wood & bamboo. I think
I saw something like that on MythBusters....


pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

There is a misunderstanding here - the wing does not have to be long and flat.

The edge and varying thickness is the trick. Many fans are curved. They get
longer that way.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 7/16/2010 12:25 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
"Stu on Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If it only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.

This is one of those questions I have, why does a wind turbine
_have_ to look like a airplane propeller?
I keep thinking of the roof top 'turbines' used to draw hot air
out of an attic space. So it seems to me that it would not be that
difficult to build a "squirrel cage" fan on it's side so that the axis
is vertical. If you want, you could make a pivoting shroud to open
into the wind. Might want to make the intake 'larger' than the exit,
get a little boost ...

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:42:13
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


I'd build one, but I get so much "windshadow" from the trees,
hills, (I can see the wind blowing 'uyp there' - and none of it down
here) and whatnot ... maybe I'll make a steam engine.


pyotr

Or try a Stirling, if you just want a small project. No pressure gauges,
no
feed pumps, no blowups, no boiler cleaning...

Oh, but where's the fun in that?

I was thinking a small one. Maybe made of wood & bamboo. I think
I saw something like that on MythBusters....

Hmmm...maybe a balsa wood engine? g

If you like steam, do steam. Then you can be an engineer, pull the whistle
and all that -- and watch it all the time it's running, to keep it going.

Stirling it delightfully drama-free. If you screw something up, it just
stops. Small ones are very simple. However, making one larger than 1 hp is
quite a project.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:14:39
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Oh, but where's the fun in that?

I was thinking a small one. Maybe made of wood & bamboo. I think
I saw something like that on MythBusters....

Hmmm...maybe a balsa wood engine? g

If you like steam, do steam. Then you can be an engineer, pull the whistle
and all that -- and watch it all the time it's running, to keep it going.

Stirling it delightfully drama-free. If you screw something up, it just
stops. Small ones are very simple. However, making one larger than 1 hp is
quite a project.

I've heard stories over the years, of using Sterlings for
electricity. Dead dumb simple operation, so ..."light fire, stand
back." No blinkenlichts to watch, but .. "we were happy."
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 05:52:45 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:33:29 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:17:58 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"Ignoramus12838" wrote in
message
news:mPWdnToWc8KWjKLRnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@gigane ws.com...
On 2010-07-15, Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill
was
getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed 30- 230w solar
panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to
6sec/rev.
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of
those
days had cloud cover. Oh and we used the solar installation to
also
create
a car port. It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just
watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

Can you tell us some more, like how large are your panels, where
approximately are you, what was the cost etc. I am very interested.

i
Well we are probably in the Sun Capital of the World. Inyokern
California.
The panel array is 30 panels that occupy a 12X40 space starting 7'
off
the
ground and going up at a 20º angle. They form the roof of a car port.
It
is snaggle toothed with two panels missing to allow light into
existing
skylight panels. The cost before rebates and tax advantage was $46K
which
included the steel structure for the carport. Out of pocket costs are
expected to be approx $26k. Panels have a relatively long warranty
and
are
expected to still be producing useable power in 25yrs. These are
Sunpower
panels and as early as 0600 this morning I was seeing some 60w being
generated. Now at 0800 it is reading 1.9kw.
Cleaning maybe accomplished by the wind that we get around here. If
it
only
blows 45mph, no one thinks much of it. Probably a good wind generator
area
also, but I don't like whirling things above my head unless I'm in my
helicopter.
We are grid dependent and have no batteries. The future battery
development
will probably let us change that and reduce our dependency on the
grid.
As
it stands now if the grid goes down, so does our solar power.
Another thing is the availability of what amounts to a zero interest
loan
for one year. We are going to take advantage of that and keep our
$26k
drawing interest until such time as the payment is due. To date we
are
out
$1k and making power.

Out of curiosity, why no battery bank? In your location..it would
appear to me that batteries would be nearly a requirement.

Gunner
Hello Gunner. The cost of the batteries, the maintenance costs to go
completely off the grid aren't in our play book yet. However we are
tracking some solid sodium battery technology that could change our
system.

Thats pretty new stuff, isnt it?

Gunner

Gunner: It is new stuff coming from Coors!! Evidently Coors has a
ceramics
lab that is more exciting than their beer. Initial data seems to have a
15kw battery the size of a small refrigerator that can be discharged and
charged every day for 10yrs. Estimated price: $2,000. This is some
technology that we are following. With development, in both the battery
and
impoved solar cell efficiencies, apartments living off the grid may be
possible.

No ****?!!!

Thats a hell of a battery and if it has the life span...we are indeed
living in the beginning of a new age.

Got any links??

This is indeed interesting!!

Gunner
Yep I had links and now can't remember where I put them. Damn it is
inconvenient to get older. If I can find the link I'll stick it in here.
Stu

On Jul 15, 6:36*am, "Stu Fields" wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill was getting
out of hand. ( than $200/mo) *We recently installed 30- 230w solar panels
and now have watched our power meter go backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev..
In just a few days our panels generated more than 200kwh and one of those
days had cloud cover. *Oh and we used the solar installation to also create
a car port. *It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

When I was designing wind and solar in the early 1980's the lament
was, "If only solar would come down from $100/ Watt, things would be
possible."
That was when in the Northwest, retail power cost 1 cent/ kw-hr.

The problem with wind in the Northwest is that we get 6mph wind all
the time, except for 24 hours per year of 50 mph wind.
What would be better is 15 mph wind all the time.

The trouble with solar heat was that it is dark, cloudy, and 40
degrees all winter.

The only things that really paid were solar lighting and super
insulation.

"Sunworshipper" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:38:18 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Sunworshipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:42:25 -0700, "chaniarts"
wrote:

Sunworshipper wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:11:56 -0700, "Stu Fields"
wrote:


"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
Stu Fields wrote:
Having welding, machining, and ceramic equipment, our power bill
was getting out of hand. ( than $200/mo) We recently installed
30- 230w solar panels and now have watched our power meter go
backwards at rates up to 6sec/rev. In just a few days our panels
generated more than 200kwh and one of those days had cloud cover.
Oh and we used the solar installation to also create a car port.
It may take a few years to recover the cost, but just watching
that meter go backwards was worth quite a bit.

in may i put in a 7.5kw solar installation, just in time for the
main summer a/c season. last month's bill was $40, whereas same
month last year was $200.

the rebates covered 80%, payback is estimated at 4.5 years. panels
are guaranteed for 25 years. converter is guaranteed for 10 years.

you'll want to rinse them off occasionally. i do so about ever 3-4
weeks, as the dust builds up. cleaning will get me a 3-5% gain.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

Charlie:
Thanks for the info. We'll be watching closely the panel
production and checking for dust. Usually, we get an evening wind
that will probably keep it pretty clean. At least the wind brings
most of the loose dust around and in my garage door.

Stu


Question for both of you. If you had the option of putting those
on a tracker and having that in your yard and getting 40% more
energy or leave them static on the roof so that they are out of
sight?

one of our design requirements was invisiblity from the street. if
they pivot, they'd have to be a lot higher and not shade any of the
neighboring panels as they moved. i've seen large fields of panels
in spain that self track, but they're ground mounted.



Marketing research, love it. So a thumbs down. From the picture(s)
you could put them on one mount. BTW, was that around 8,000kb per
picture? Seemed to load awfully slow. Have you really been to Spain or
are ya taking a jab about the billion $ to Spain instead of a US
company? Thanks for the input.

SW

they were a 1mb picture when i uploaded them, i have no idea what
picturetrail did to them. i assumed that they did some sort of
compression
on them.

44 panels on one mount? that would be pretty big and tall, if it had to
track both dawn and sunset. furthermore, since my house faces sw, it
would
have to be in the front yard. that would definitely be a nogo by swmbo.

yes, i recently spent 1.5 weeks driving around the south of spain. they
are going big into solar cells. i saw acres of panel installations. few
were trackers; pedestal mounted for the most part. most though were
fixed
inclination, looked around 25 degrees or so.

Just saw an announcement where DOE is looking to fund research in Static
PV
concentrator... Also battery development is proceeding.
Now most of the time I execute a good idea after its time. Did I this
time
execute before its time??? Well as usual, "Time will Tell". Present
reading
@10:32 is 4.6kw and 9.0kwh so far today. Life time production to date:
265kwh. We are at 5.5 days for an average of 48kwh/day which is more than
our avg. consumption. Look out Utilities commission there is a new power
generation plant in existence. We might be able to sell an average of
2kwh/day. At our rates that would be $0.48/day except they ain't going to
buy at the same rate that they sell. I'm the only one that uses that
business model.



Static PV concentrator?

Your not serious? Half mirrored spheres with suspended small costly
PV cells... Sounds like them.

SW
There was no detail only a teaser that DOE was interested in getting their
SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) money out there and spent before
they lose it. I can remember having to come up with something to spend the
SBIR money so that we could get some next year. GEESH..I sure hope we get
more and bigger government to take care of me...

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .

There was no detail only a teaser that DOE was interested in getting their
SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) money out there and spent before
they lose it. I can remember having to come up with something to spend
the SBIR money so that we could get some next year. GEESH..I sure hope we
get more and bigger government to take care of me...

Request research funds to devise a method to tax the electricity individuals
make with solar power at home for thier own use. Off grid people are of
course not paying thier fair share of taxes.

Best Regards
Tom.

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:14:39
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Oh, but where's the fun in that?

I was thinking a small one. Maybe made of wood & bamboo. I think
I saw something like that on MythBusters....

Hmmm...maybe a balsa wood engine? g

If you like steam, do steam. Then you can be an engineer, pull the whistle
and all that -- and watch it all the time it's running, to keep it going.

Stirling it delightfully drama-free. If you screw something up, it just
stops. Small ones are very simple. However, making one larger than 1 hp is
quite a project.

I've heard stories over the years, of using Sterlings for
electricity. Dead dumb simple operation, so ..."light fire, stand
back." No blinkenlichts to watch, but .. "we were happy."

They have a charm of their own. They've beome a cult machine, but, unlike
another cult machine, the Tesla turbine, they actually work.

There have been a number of high-output prototypes, by Saab, the US Navy,
and others, and one navy (Sweden?) powers some of its submarines with them.
They're used to generate electricity in some deep-space probes, using
nuclear isotopes for heat.

But if you want efficiency from them, they're expensive to build, requiring
superalloy heat exchangers that are expensive to fabricate. If you don't
care about efficiency, there are some teachers in Japan who have their kids
make Stirlings from a coffee can, some rubber balloons, and wooden sticks.
They run very well.

--
Ed Huntress

azotic wrote:

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .

There was no detail only a teaser that DOE was interested in getting
their SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) money out there and
spent before they lose it. I can remember having to come up with
something to spend the SBIR money so that we could get some next
year. GEESH..I sure hope we get more and bigger government to take
care of me...

Request research funds to devise a method to tax the electricity
individuals
make with solar power at home for thier own use. Off grid people are of
course not paying thier fair share of taxes.

Best Regards
Tom.



Off grid people of course dont get the benefits the on grid tax payers get.
So its seems fair to me that we( off grid folk) dont pay the tax to
which you refer. .
Afterall (correct me if im wrong) you dont pay for services you dont
get. Ie you dont pay your plumber or whatever if hes not doing anything
for you.
Off grid electricity cost more per watt than on grid. It does have its
compensations tho.
If anyone is interested , weve been off grid for some 40 yrs, and our
setup uses the following.
Ex British rail standby signalling alkaline batteries, I bought them
at 10 yrs old at £30.00 a ton, had 3 tons. Have a useful life in excess
of 50 yrs.
We used from the 70 crates, there in 316 stainless steel in hard wood
boxes, some 20 at present, powering a 3kw outback system.
We charge them with a 6kva Lister diesel generator controlled by an
Outback mate.
Recently, we came by 1000 galls of diesel fuel at £1.00 a gallon. so
weve plenty put by. The proper pump price of this tax free tractor fuel
here in the UK is £2.50 a gallon.
we plan to cut this generating cost by building a 48v. DC generator
powered by a 650 rpm Lister 6/1 single on waste vegetable oil.Weve 3 of
these engines put by.
Currently we get this WVO from a local hotel for free. So were stock
piling it for future use.
We think that this way of providing electricity is the cheapest way,
much more efficient that solar power. We will add another 3kw outback in
due course to give us a steady 6kw power supply.
Our main power usage is our fridge freezer.
hope this is of interest.
Ted in rural wilderness Dorset
UK.

"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...
azotic wrote:

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .

There was no detail only a teaser that DOE was interested in getting
their SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) money out there and
spent before they lose it. I can remember having to come up with
something to spend the SBIR money so that we could get some next year.
GEESH..I sure hope we get more and bigger government to take care of
me...

Request research funds to devise a method to tax the electricity
individuals
make with solar power at home for thier own use. Off grid people are of
course not paying thier fair share of taxes.

Best Regards
Tom.



Off grid people of course dont get the benefits the on grid tax payers
get.
So its seems fair to me that we( off grid folk) dont pay the tax to which
you refer. .
Afterall (correct me if im wrong) you dont pay for services you dont get.
Ie you dont pay your plumber or whatever if hes not doing anything for
you.
Off grid electricity cost more per watt than on grid. It does have its
compensations tho.
If anyone is interested , weve been off grid for some 40 yrs, and our
setup uses the following.
Ex British rail standby signalling alkaline batteries, I bought them at
10 yrs old at £30.00 a ton, had 3 tons. Have a useful life in excess of 50
yrs.
We used from the 70 crates, there in 316 stainless steel in hard wood
boxes, some 20 at present, powering a 3kw outback system.
We charge them with a 6kva Lister diesel generator controlled by an
Outback mate.
Recently, we came by 1000 galls of diesel fuel at £1.00 a gallon. so weve
plenty put by. The proper pump price of this tax free tractor fuel here in
the UK is £2.50 a gallon.
we plan to cut this generating cost by building a 48v. DC generator
powered by a 650 rpm Lister 6/1 single on waste vegetable oil.Weve 3 of
these engines put by.
Currently we get this WVO from a local hotel for free. So were stock
piling it for future use.
We think that this way of providing electricity is the cheapest way, much
more efficient that solar power. We will add another 3kw outback in due
course to give us a steady 6kw power supply.
Our main power usage is our fridge freezer.
hope this is of interest.
Ted in rural wilderness Dorset
UK.
Ted: Having driven around in the UK, I can believe that solar might not be
the most efficient way to generate power. Only saw the sun a couple of times
in two weeks. However, have you ever logged your time collecting WVO,
diesel, and maintenance? I'd be interested in knowing the cost interms of
amount of labor req'd.
It does sound like you've been pretty inventive in taking care of your power
needs. We have people living not to far away in the mountains that have
come up with combinations of solar and diesel to answer their forced off
grid lifestyle.
I really like the no moving parts and minimal maintenance of the solar and
we live in the desert where we are truly wasting sunshine. With two
helicopters, my wrench twisting time is already more than I like.

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 16:55:41 +0100, Ted Frater
wrote:

azotic wrote:

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .

There was no detail only a teaser that DOE was interested in getting
their SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) money out there and
spent before they lose it. I can remember having to come up with
something to spend the SBIR money so that we could get some next
year. GEESH..I sure hope we get more and bigger government to take
care of me...

Request research funds to devise a method to tax the electricity
individuals
make with solar power at home for thier own use. Off grid people are of
course not paying thier fair share of taxes.

Best Regards
Tom.



Off grid people of course dont get the benefits the on grid tax payers get.
So its seems fair to me that we( off grid folk) dont pay the tax to
which you refer. .
Afterall (correct me if im wrong) you dont pay for services you dont
get. Ie you dont pay your plumber or whatever if hes not doing anything
for you.
Off grid electricity cost more per watt than on grid. It does have its
compensations tho.
If anyone is interested , weve been off grid for some 40 yrs, and our
setup uses the following.
Ex British rail standby signalling alkaline batteries, I bought them
at 10 yrs old at £30.00 a ton, had 3 tons. Have a useful life in excess
of 50 yrs.
We used from the 70 crates, there in 316 stainless steel in hard wood
boxes, some 20 at present, powering a 3kw outback system.
We charge them with a 6kva Lister diesel generator controlled by an
Outback mate.
Recently, we came by 1000 galls of diesel fuel at £1.00 a gallon. so
weve plenty put by. The proper pump price of this tax free tractor fuel
here in the UK is £2.50 a gallon.
we plan to cut this generating cost by building a 48v. DC generator
powered by a 650 rpm Lister 6/1 single on waste vegetable oil.Weve 3 of
these engines put by.
Currently we get this WVO from a local hotel for free. So were stock
piling it for future use.
We think that this way of providing electricity is the cheapest way,
much more efficient that solar power. We will add another 3kw outback in
due course to give us a steady 6kw power supply.
Our main power usage is our fridge freezer.
hope this is of interest.
Ted in rural wilderness Dorset
UK.




oooh, that sounds like fun ! That's what I need to find, a Lister. I
found them on the Internet while looking up a cast iron gas tank I
found in the woods for a hit and miss named a Monitor. They don't make
gas tanks like they use to. I need a 220V generator I can run for
long periods just in case the power goes out while its 30 below.
Almost landed a VW diesel pickup for $75 and was about to start
collecting oily stuff cause I can get as many of those fuel oil tanks
that I could possibly need for free. Was not happy, thought the VW was
in the bag after about 1.5 years of negotiating of who really had the
title.

See if you had sun I could show you how to cure that reefer problem.
Solar thermal is my favorite. Run it off the exhaust heat!

What I don't and never have understood is how one controls the timing
when the fuel is ignited by pressure alone. Why won't it light off on
the way up? Maybe it does and won't work till the ratio is just
right... Lots of backfires till ya get it right?

SW

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 21:35:08 -0700
"Stu Fields" wrote:

snip
Yep I had links and now can't remember where I put them. Damn it is
inconvenient to get older. If I can find the link I'll stick it in here.
Stu

The first four hits or so look like what you want:

http://www.google.com/search?q=coors...Search&hl =en

or

http://www.gizmag.com/solar-battery-cheap-power/12676/

http://heraldextra.com/news/article_...cc4c002e0.html

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1591...r-game-changer

http://classicalvalues.com/archives/...odium_bat.html

Interesting stuff...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Sunworshipper on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:03:08 -0500 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Or try a Stirling, if you just want a small project. No pressure gauges, no
feed pumps, no blowups, no boiler cleaning...

I saw a cool one just today on a video, used a magnet for a piston and
copier toner for the sealing ring in a glass tube. Now that is
thinking !

As for the wind power part. Anyone know what the pressure front is
called?

"standing wave" is what I'm thinking of - there is probably a
technical term in fluid dynamics that applies.

Like how the air is turbulent upwind of a building that snow
banks are eaten away to the ground. Or maybe how the grass bends over
on the side of the road before the vehicle gets there. Subsonic
pressure front? I'd like to read up on it if I could cause the wind
blows here quite well at times, was thinking of DC lights for the shop
so the wife doesn't bitch about having lots of light.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 21:35:08 -0700
"Stu Fields" wrote:

snip
Yep I had links and now can't remember where I put them. Damn it is
inconvenient to get older. If I can find the link I'll stick it in here.
Stu

The first four hits or so look like what you want:

http://www.google.com/search?q=coors...Search&hl =en

or

http://www.gizmag.com/solar-battery-cheap-power/12676/

http://heraldextra.com/news/article_...cc4c002e0.html

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1591...r-game-changer

http://classicalvalues.com/archives/...odium_bat.html

Interesting stuff...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Bingo Leon.

Leon Fisk wrote:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1591...r-game-changer

I'm not buying into all this global warming stuff but if we devise a decent battery and go
solar, it would seem that it would have less impact on our enviroment.

Not that I'm worried we are ruining it burning oil and gas. Coal has some issues,
undermining property, heavy metals, and the danger to those that go underground to mine
it.

Now if we could find a battery with the energy density of gasoline with a long life and
isn't made of toxic chemicals, a lot of changes would take place.

The next 20+ years may be interesting.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Sunworshipper wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 16:55:41 +0100, Ted Frater
wrote:

azotic wrote:
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .

There was no detail only a teaser that DOE was interested in getting
their SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) money out there and
spent before they lose it. I can remember having to come up with
something to spend the SBIR money so that we could get some next
year. GEESH..I sure hope we get more and bigger government to take
care of me...
Request research funds to devise a method to tax the electricity
individuals
make with solar power at home for thier own use. Off grid people are of
course not paying thier fair share of taxes.

Best Regards
Tom.


Off grid people of course dont get the benefits the on grid tax payers get.
So its seems fair to me that we( off grid folk) dont pay the tax to
which you refer. .
Afterall (correct me if im wrong) you dont pay for services you dont
get. Ie you dont pay your plumber or whatever if hes not doing anything
for you.
Off grid electricity cost more per watt than on grid. It does have its
compensations tho.
If anyone is interested , weve been off grid for some 40 yrs, and our
setup uses the following.
Ex British rail standby signalling alkaline batteries, I bought them
at 10 yrs old at £30.00 a ton, had 3 tons. Have a useful life in excess
of 50 yrs.
We used from the 70 crates, there in 316 stainless steel in hard wood
boxes, some 20 at present, powering a 3kw outback system.
We charge them with a 6kva Lister diesel generator controlled by an
Outback mate.
Recently, we came by 1000 galls of diesel fuel at £1.00 a gallon. so
weve plenty put by. The proper pump price of this tax free tractor fuel
here in the UK is £2.50 a gallon.
we plan to cut this generating cost by building a 48v. DC generator
powered by a 650 rpm Lister 6/1 single on waste vegetable oil.Weve 3 of
these engines put by.
Currently we get this WVO from a local hotel for free. So were stock
piling it for future use.
We think that this way of providing electricity is the cheapest way,
much more efficient that solar power. We will add another 3kw outback in
due course to give us a steady 6kw power supply.
Our main power usage is our fridge freezer.
hope this is of interest.
Ted in rural wilderness Dorset
UK.




oooh, that sounds like fun ! That's what I need to find, a Lister. I
found them on the Internet while looking up a cast iron gas tank I
found in the woods for a hit and miss named a Monitor. They don't make
gas tanks like they use to. I need a 220V generator I can run for
long periods just in case the power goes out while its 30 below.
Almost landed a VW diesel pickup for $75 and was about to start
collecting oily stuff cause I can get as many of those fuel oil tanks
that I could possibly need for free. Was not happy, thought the VW was
in the bag after about 1.5 years of negotiating of who really had the
title.

See if you had sun I could show you how to cure that reefer problem.
Solar thermal is my favorite. Run it off the exhaust heat!

What I don't and never have understood is how one controls the timing
when the fuel is ignited by pressure alone. Why won't it light off on
the way up? Maybe it does and won't work till the ratio is just
right... Lots of backfires till ya get it right?

SW
If I read you right, you might need to read up how a diesel engine works.
To put it simply the fuel is sprayed at over 100 bar into the hot
compressed air as a very fine mist just before top dead center on the
compression stroke, whereapon it catches fire by itself.
As to finding a 6/1 lister diesel, theres a few here in the UK at
engine rallies and steam fairs.
We find it easier to heat the house, the water and do the cooking on a
large cast iron cooking stove . A Rayburn no1. Made in the 1950/60's.
As with everything else we have a spare put by.But then we have always
planned on the long term.

Stu Fields wrote:
"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...
azotic wrote:
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .

There was no detail only a teaser that DOE was interested in getting
their SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) money out there and
spent before they lose it. I can remember having to come up with
something to spend the SBIR money so that we could get some next year.
GEESH..I sure hope we get more and bigger government to take care of
me...
Request research funds to devise a method to tax the electricity
individuals
make with solar power at home for thier own use. Off grid people are of
course not paying thier fair share of taxes.

Best Regards
Tom.


Off grid people of course dont get the benefits the on grid tax payers
get.
So its seems fair to me that we( off grid folk) dont pay the tax to which
you refer. .
Afterall (correct me if im wrong) you dont pay for services you dont get.
Ie you dont pay your plumber or whatever if hes not doing anything for
you.
Off grid electricity cost more per watt than on grid. It does have its
compensations tho.
If anyone is interested , weve been off grid for some 40 yrs, and our
setup uses the following.
Ex British rail standby signalling alkaline batteries, I bought them at
10 yrs old at £30.00 a ton, had 3 tons. Have a useful life in excess of 50
yrs.
We used from the 70 crates, there in 316 stainless steel in hard wood
boxes, some 20 at present, powering a 3kw outback system.
We charge them with a 6kva Lister diesel generator controlled by an
Outback mate.
Recently, we came by 1000 galls of diesel fuel at £1.00 a gallon. so weve
plenty put by. The proper pump price of this tax free tractor fuel here in
the UK is £2.50 a gallon.
we plan to cut this generating cost by building a 48v. DC generator
powered by a 650 rpm Lister 6/1 single on waste vegetable oil.Weve 3 of
these engines put by.
Currently we get this WVO from a local hotel for free. So were stock
piling it for future use.
We think that this way of providing electricity is the cheapest way, much
more efficient that solar power. We will add another 3kw outback in due
course to give us a steady 6kw power supply.
Our main power usage is our fridge freezer.
hope this is of interest.
Ted in rural wilderness Dorset
UK.
Ted: Having driven around in the UK, I can believe that solar might not be
the most efficient way to generate power. Only saw the sun a couple of times
in two weeks. However, have you ever logged your time collecting WVO,
diesel, and maintenance? I'd be interested in knowing the cost interms of
amount of labor req'd.
It does sound like you've been pretty inventive in taking care of your power
needs. We have people living not to far away in the mountains that have
come up with combinations of solar and diesel to answer their forced off
grid lifestyle.
I really like the no moving parts and minimal maintenance of the solar and
we live in the desert where we are truly wasting sunshine. With two
helicopters, my wrench twisting time is already more than I like.



Time spent doing the above,?
well, the WVO is collected about every 3 weeks when I take a trip into
town to do my chores, at the same time I collect the thick worktop off
cuts from a kitchen maker . these are also free,and are the best and
most consistent fuel supply for our wood burner/water heater/ cooker/
house heater.Cut with a tractor driven saw bench and tungsten tipped blade.
Diesel maintenance is minimal. oil change 2 times a year, fuel injector
service every 4 yrs. will do 50,000hrs before it needs a ring and bore set.
However I was trained as a flight engineer, still have all my foot
launced flying kit, Earn my living as an applied art metal smith. forge
bronze, silver ,titanium etc. also mint all sorts of products.
do have plenty of space, storage and fun!!.
A fully equipped engineering workshop is here as well.
Have lots of projects on the go.
Been very lucky really.
Our weather is capricious, weve had 8 weeks of high pressure with only 3
or 4 days of cloud cover. need the rain badly .
Just the way it is!!.
Thanks for your interest.
allways enjoy rec. crafts, metalworking.
Ted.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:14:39
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Oh, but where's the fun in that?

I was thinking a small one. Maybe made of wood & bamboo. I think
I saw something like that on MythBusters....

Hmmm...maybe a balsa wood engine? g

If you like steam, do steam. Then you can be an engineer, pull the
whistle
and all that -- and watch it all the time it's running, to keep it going.

Stirling it delightfully drama-free. If you screw something up, it just
stops. Small ones are very simple. However, making one larger than 1 hp
is
quite a project.

I've heard stories over the years, of using Sterlings for
electricity. Dead dumb simple operation, so ..."light fire, stand
back." No blinkenlichts to watch, but .. "we were happy."

They have a charm of their own. They've beome a cult machine, but, unlike
another cult machine, the Tesla turbine, they actually work.

There have been a number of high-output prototypes, by Saab, the US Navy,
and others, and one navy (Sweden?) powers some of its submarines with
them. They're used to generate electricity in some deep-space probes,
using nuclear isotopes for heat.

But if you want efficiency from them, they're expensive to build,
requiring superalloy heat exchangers that are expensive to fabricate. If
you don't care about efficiency, there are some teachers in Japan who have
their kids make Stirlings from a coffee can, some rubber balloons, and
wooden sticks. They run very well.

Last I heard PG&E was bringing a couple on line out in the Mojave to
generate power with.
1.2 Gw worth or someting.

JC

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:14:39
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Oh, but where's the fun in that?

I was thinking a small one. Maybe made of wood & bamboo. I think
I saw something like that on MythBusters....

Hmmm...maybe a balsa wood engine? g

If you like steam, do steam. Then you can be an engineer, pull the
whistle
and all that -- and watch it all the time it's running, to keep it
going.

Stirling it delightfully drama-free. If you screw something up, it just
stops. Small ones are very simple. However, making one larger than 1 hp
is
quite a project.

I've heard stories over the years, of using Sterlings for
electricity. Dead dumb simple operation, so ..."light fire, stand
back." No blinkenlichts to watch, but .. "we were happy."

They have a charm of their own. They've beome a cult machine, but, unlike
another cult machine, the Tesla turbine, they actually work.

There have been a number of high-output prototypes, by Saab, the US Navy,
and others, and one navy (Sweden?) powers some of its submarines with
them. They're used to generate electricity in some deep-space probes,
using nuclear isotopes for heat.

But if you want efficiency from them, they're expensive to build,
requiring superalloy heat exchangers that are expensive to fabricate. If
you don't care about efficiency, there are some teachers in Japan who
have their kids make Stirlings from a coffee can, some rubber balloons,
and wooden sticks. They run very well.

Last I heard PG&E was bringing a couple on line out in the Mojave to
generate power with.
1.2 Gw worth or someting.

JC

PG&E has a big solar stirling project somewhere. I've heard different
stories about them, but apparently they're kinematic machines, which is a
surprise because most of the large-scale solar stirling experiments and
pilot projects have been done with free-piston engines.

As always, they have possibilities. Cost and lubrication have been big
issues. At the high end, lubrication has been solved.

Although I'm a stirling enthusiast, I keep my enthusiasm curbed. They've
been around since 1816, and except for a short period from around 1880 -
1930, they've found little commercial application. Models are fun to build
and watch, however.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 23:50:38 +0100, Ted Frater
wrote:

Sunworshipper wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 16:55:41 +0100, Ted Frater
wrote:

azotic wrote:
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .

There was no detail only a teaser that DOE was interested in getting
their SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) money out there and
spent before they lose it. I can remember having to come up with
something to spend the SBIR money so that we could get some next
year. GEESH..I sure hope we get more and bigger government to take
care of me...
Request research funds to devise a method to tax the electricity
individuals
make with solar power at home for thier own use. Off grid people are of
course not paying thier fair share of taxes.

Best Regards
Tom.


Off grid people of course dont get the benefits the on grid tax payers get.
So its seems fair to me that we( off grid folk) dont pay the tax to
which you refer. .
Afterall (correct me if im wrong) you dont pay for services you dont
get. Ie you dont pay your plumber or whatever if hes not doing anything
for you.
Off grid electricity cost more per watt than on grid. It does have its
compensations tho.
If anyone is interested , weve been off grid for some 40 yrs, and our
setup uses the following.
Ex British rail standby signalling alkaline batteries, I bought them
at 10 yrs old at £30.00 a ton, had 3 tons. Have a useful life in excess
of 50 yrs.
We used from the 70 crates, there in 316 stainless steel in hard wood
boxes, some 20 at present, powering a 3kw outback system.
We charge them with a 6kva Lister diesel generator controlled by an
Outback mate.
Recently, we came by 1000 galls of diesel fuel at £1.00 a gallon. so
weve plenty put by. The proper pump price of this tax free tractor fuel
here in the UK is £2.50 a gallon.
we plan to cut this generating cost by building a 48v. DC generator
powered by a 650 rpm Lister 6/1 single on waste vegetable oil.Weve 3 of
these engines put by.
Currently we get this WVO from a local hotel for free. So were stock
piling it for future use.
We think that this way of providing electricity is the cheapest way,
much more efficient that solar power. We will add another 3kw outback in
due course to give us a steady 6kw power supply.
Our main power usage is our fridge freezer.
hope this is of interest.
Ted in rural wilderness Dorset
UK.




oooh, that sounds like fun ! That's what I need to find, a Lister. I
found them on the Internet while looking up a cast iron gas tank I
found in the woods for a hit and miss named a Monitor. They don't make
gas tanks like they use to. I need a 220V generator I can run for
long periods just in case the power goes out while its 30 below.
Almost landed a VW diesel pickup for $75 and was about to start
collecting oily stuff cause I can get as many of those fuel oil tanks
that I could possibly need for free. Was not happy, thought the VW was
in the bag after about 1.5 years of negotiating of who really had the
title.

See if you had sun I could show you how to cure that reefer problem.
Solar thermal is my favorite. Run it off the exhaust heat!

What I don't and never have understood is how one controls the timing
when the fuel is ignited by pressure alone. Why won't it light off on
the way up? Maybe it does and won't work till the ratio is just
right... Lots of backfires till ya get it right?

SW
If I read you right, you might need to read up how a diesel engine works.
To put it simply the fuel is sprayed at over 100 bar into the hot
compressed air as a very fine mist just before top dead center on the
compression stroke, whereapon it catches fire by itself.
As to finding a 6/1 lister diesel, theres a few here in the UK at
engine rallies and steam fairs.
We find it easier to heat the house, the water and do the cooking on a
large cast iron cooking stove . A Rayburn no1. Made in the 1950/60's.
As with everything else we have a spare put by.But then we have always
planned on the long term.


Well, it looks like I need to find a great book now. Didn't know ole
Rudolf killed himself over trying to figure the engine out. Looks like
it took between 30 to 40 years to get the injector right.

I had assumed it was accomplished without injectors and maybe
right...? Also assumed they had to wait for someone to come up with
the injector to make it useful, which might be right...?

But, thanks, I had no idea they where doing such things from close to
the get go. I've been trying to get some good old books through the
library system, now it seems that the copy writes expire they don't
want to let you check out the old cool books cause they are old and
rare. Getting a hold of that good information has always been a pet
peeve, so I best drop it before I go off on a rant.

I've never seen an injector apart and was hoping to get that diesel VW
to force myself to learn. Plus I have a friend who lives close that
knows diesels very well, he even has a Simi that you can't reach the
$100 bill taped to the dash from the acceleration between gears.

Not long ago I found out what they mean by a hit and miss engine, I
assumed it was like a 6 - 8 cycle engine of some sort. Never thought
it was possible to let it turn until more power/speed was needed. Must
have huge valves and opened far to make it work.

I think I might have lost you on the heat thing, not your stove. Use
the heat from your generators for an evaporative cooler for your
refrigerator.

Flight engineer. Isn't that the person the pilot and co-pilot look
to, to see if they look scared ?

SW

Stu Fields wrote:

"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
...
The grid is your battery. Let the meter run backwards during the day,
let it run forwards at night. I have a friend who does this. His net
electric bill is zero, but he has power 24/7.

...Adn how much did his system cost? How much is maintenance per year on
average? Multiply the maintenance by two since everyone minimizes the
negatives of something they like... And now ask him what his bills were
before the install.

Calculate the amount of manufacturing effort that went into it all and the
effect on the environment the manufacturing had as compared to the same
from the power plant...

Most people find the net gain is not there unless they live in a very
sunny place.

Someone actually posted a map of the USA where it was profitable and where
it wasn't a few years ago. Wish I could find that now.

I hope your friend is ahead of the game, but if he is, I also bet he is in
open prarie country or the south / dessert and not a metro area like I am.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://tinyurl.com/AutoDrill-Facebook

V8013-R
Joe we have heard of some efficiencies getting close to 50% in the lab. If
they can get them into the field, the individuals in the metro areas may
find them more usefull. It is said that the efficiency is only important if
you have limited space, however, at 0600 this morning our system was showing
56w and while I could see the sun, the angle to the panels was close to
zero. Our efficiency helps there and yes we live in an area that must get
370 days/yr of sun. Right now at 19:43 with complete cloud coverage we are
still showing 105w. Total for the day 86kwh. about twice our previous
daily average. I wonder what SCE will pay for the power we put into the
grid??

There is an awful lot of commercial roof space out there, and
additionally, commercial roofs tend to be flat (easier to work on and
lower visibility), and have A/C units on them that could benefit from
the shading an array of solar panels mounted a couple feet above them
would create. Generate some electricity from the solar panels, shade the
A/C units to increase their efficiency, and also shade the roof to
reduce the solar heat load, you end up with a triple gain. Add in some
energy efficiency tax credits and the costs are not that bad. Add in
some "green" publicity for the business and you may have another
benefit. Don't forget some solar thermal panels for your hot water
needs.

On Jul 18, 1:07*pm, Sunworshipper wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 23:50:38 +0100, Ted Frater
wrote:



Well, it looks like I need to find a great book now. *Didn't know ole
Rudolf killed himself over trying to figure the engine out. Looks like
it took between 30 to 40 years to get the injector right.

I had assumed it was accomplished without injectors and maybe
right...? Also assumed they had to wait for someone to come up with
the injector to make it useful, which might be right...?

But, thanks, I had no idea they where doing such things from close to
the get go. I've been trying to get some good old books through the
library system, now it seems that the copy writes expire they don't
want to let you check out the old cool books cause they are old and
rare. Getting a hold of that good information has always been a pet
peeve, so I best drop it before I go off on a rant.

I've never seen an injector apart and was hoping to get that diesel VW
to force myself to learn. Plus I have a friend who lives close that
knows diesels very well, he even has a Simi that you can't reach the
$100 bill taped to the dash from the acceleration between gears.

Not long ago I found out what they mean by a hit and miss engine, I
assumed it was like a 6 - 8 cycle engine of some sort. *Never thought
it was possible to let it turn until more power/speed was needed. Must
have huge valves and opened far to make it work.

I think I might have lost you on the heat thing, not your stove. *Use
the heat from your generators for an evaporative cooler for your
refrigerator.

Flight engineer. *Isn't that the person the pilot and co-pilot look
to, to see if they look scared ?

SW- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Lots of old engine books on archive.org, just none showing current
Diesel practice. There's at least a couple of dozen ways of getting
fuel into a Diesel cylinder, the one Rudolf invented isn't used much
anymore, which was blasting the charge in there with compressed air.
100RPM was fast for the engines he first built, though, were meant to
replace stationary steam power. The current crop of car Diesels use
direct injection and electrically operated and computer controlled
injectors. Benz used, for many years, indirect injection and a
mechanically operated and timed plunger pump set, look up "Bosch
pump". VW's diesels were off on their own, didn't use anything like
current practice or Bosch, either. Hopefully the newer low-sulfur
fuels haven't killed the injector/distributor pump, that was happening
when I left CA 15 years back and guys were haunting the VW scrapyard
looking for injection system parts. Weren't factory available.

Stan

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 12:28:18 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Sunworshipper on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:03:08 -0500 typed in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Or try a Stirling, if you just want a small project. No pressure gauges,
no feed pumps, no blowups, no boiler cleaning...

I saw a cool one just today on a video, used a magnet for a piston and
copier toner for the sealing ring in a glass tube. Now that is thinking !

As for the wind power part. Anyone know what the pressure front is
called?

"standing wave" is what I'm thinking of - there is probably a
technical term in fluid dynamics that applies.

"wake"?

Thanks,
Rich