On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 23:44:29 -0400, the infamous Bob Engelhardt
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

... Why reinvent the wheel?

'Cause I need a wheel with a very large diameter AND narrow tread AND a
hub to fit a specific axle stub.

The tin I worked with had a _center_ nail or two. I thought that was
what you were looking to remove. Perimeters are mucho easier (but
still a major pain.)

***
Satanley makes a mini wonder bar which I use to get into small spaces.
It's made of tough spring steel, about 5" long, 1/2" wide, maybe 3/32"
thick, with a 1" long pry head. This is your best bet.
http://fwd4.me/ITT Vaughan 5-1/4"?
***

I grind the curved end of my HF multipurpose pry bars thin on the belt
sandah for trim and tin, too. http://fwd4.me/ITO

Then again, tin is easily beat back into shape on the edges. Stock up
on repousse hammers and make wooden dies for the edge shapes with a
dremel and tubafore if necessary.

I'd also use a scribe to remove the paint from that joint so you can
see the edge you're after a bit more clearly.

--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that we can do, we
shall ere long be surprised to find how little remains that we cannot do.
-- Samuel Butler

Larry Jaques wrote:
The tin I worked with had a _center_ nail or two. I thought that was
what you were looking to remove. Perimeters are mucho easier (but
still a major pain.) ...

Yes and no. We remove the nails on one side, from the front, as shown.
Then with that side loose, we go behind the tin to remove the nails on
the other side from behind. Reaching behind the 24" wide panel gives us
the need for a long bar.

Then again, tin is easily beat back into shape on the edges. Stock up
on repousse hammers and make wooden dies for the edge shapes with a
dremel and tubafore if necessary.

Indeed, but we'd like to avoid as much of that as possible.

I'd also use a scribe to remove the paint from that joint so you can
see the edge you're after a bit more clearly.

Good point.

Thanks,
Bob

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 00:22:18 -0400, the infamous Bob Engelhardt
scrawled the following:

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
... Here's a picture of a
sharpened pry bar getting behind the tin. The arrow points to a nail head!
[no picture link]

Sorry - here it is:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/TinCeiling.jpg

Crikey! Of _course_ it's painted. (what a shame!)


--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that we can do, we
shall ere long be surprised to find how little remains that we cannot do.
-- Samuel Butler

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Steve W. wrote:
I think I would try using a clamp style nail puller on a slide hammer to
remove the nails. Less damage to the tin and probably much faster. I
would probably take a set of vice grips, weld a set of tapered jaws on
the end to grip under the nail head. Then attach that to a slide hammer.

I'm skeptical - I think that getting under the nail head would be more
time consuming than getting behind the tin. Here's a picture of a
sharpened pry bar getting behind the tin. The arrow points to a nail head!

With a sharp set of points it should be easier to get under the heads
than tearing the tin. Even with the paint on there. Have you tried a
GOOD cats paw?


Tin is VERY, VERY easy to damage. BTDT working on a church kitchen
ceiling. Decided that decorative tin is WAY to much trouble...

It certainly is a lot of trouble! Today we discovered that some
ceilings have gotten wet and the nails rusted. The heads come off or
the tin tears before the nails pull out. !&%$#(!

In that case I would probably try a flush cutting tool and just cut the
heads off.
This style will get in under the head
http://www.shorinternational.com/ima...esP/plr784.gif


We are being motivated by the high prices this stuff brings from the
yuppies. And it's volunteer labor being used G. There's a limit,
though, so we'll see how far it goes.

Bob


--
Steve W.

Steve W. wrote:
With a sharp set of points it should be easier to get under the heads
than tearing the tin. Even with the paint on there. Have you tried a
GOOD cats paw?

All the cat's paws I have access to are much too crude/blunt/thick. But
your post's inspired me to try making one.

In that case I would probably try a flush cutting tool and just cut the
heads off.
This style will get in under the head
http://www.shorinternational.com/ima...esP/plr784.gif

That's a nice one - the site has a bunch of nice cutters:
http://www.shorinternational.com/pliersend.htm
The 2nd one down, the "Oblique Flush Cut Nippers" ($168.00) looks very
well made G.

Bob

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
I think I would try using a clamp style nail puller on a slide hammer to
remove the nails. Less damage to the tin and probably much faster. I
would probably take a set of vice grips, weld a set of tapered jaws on
the end to grip under the nail head. Then attach that to a slide hammer.

I'm skeptical - I think that getting under the nail head would be more
time consuming than getting behind the tin. Here's a picture of a
sharpened pry bar getting behind the tin. The arrow points to a nail head!

Tin is VERY, VERY easy to damage. BTDT working on a church kitchen
ceiling. Decided that decorative tin is WAY to much trouble...

It certainly is a lot of trouble! Today we discovered that some
ceilings have gotten wet and the nails rusted. The heads come off or
the tin tears before the nails pull out. !&%$#(!

We are being motivated by the high prices this stuff brings from the
yuppies. And it's volunteer labor being used G. There's a limit,
though, so we'll see how far it goes.


How about a hollow punch, to cut the metal around the nail head?


--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'

Steve W. wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
OK, from what Ed & Tim said, I do want something harder than mild steel,
so that it won't "yield" as soon as mild steel would.

As to heat treating facilities, well, minimal - maximum heat capability
is propane forge. Obviously no automatic temp control.

As to what I'm making: it's for taking down tin ceilings. The ceilings
will be salvaged, so the specifics of the tool are needed to minimize
damage. The bar needs to be about 16" long, to reach over the back of a
24" tile. It needs to have a long taper, coming to a thin edge, to work
under the nails without distorting the tin. One edge needs to be 3/4"
wide to fit into a nailing space. One end will be straight & the other
have a 90 degree leg. It will be pulling out 1" long 16 ga nails, so it
won't have to be very strong - I'm thinking 1/16" thick (from trials
with a 1/16" thick putty knife).

If it wasn't for the length, I would re-shape the putty knife. Which
suggests brazing or silver soldering the knife on a longer handle - is
that doable? How about a 90 bend in it - I assume that would require
heating to bend, quenching, and tempering?

Thanks,
Bob


I think I would try using a clamp style nail puller on a slide hammer to
remove the nails. Less damage to the tin and probably much faster. I
would probably take a set of vice grips, weld a set of tapered jaws on
the end to grip under the nail head. Then attach that to a slide hammer.

Tin is VERY, VERY easy to damage. BTDT working on a church kitchen
ceiling. Decided that decorative tin is WAY to much trouble...

For that size nail, in a ceiling, you probably don't have to pry it out.
Just grab the thing firmly then chin yourself up on the puller.

Grabbing it, obviously, is still an issue.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Steve W. wrote:
With a sharp set of points it should be easier to get under the heads
than tearing the tin. Even with the paint on there. Have you tried a
GOOD cats paw?

All the cat's paws I have access to are much too crude/blunt/thick. But
your post's inspired me to try making one.

I'll tell you the best one I have is an import from Japan. It is high
quality steel and the working end is shaped well and VERY sharp. The
jaws will lift the head of a sewing pin driven into wood!


In that case I would probably try a flush cutting tool and just cut the
heads off.
This style will get in under the head
http://www.shorinternational.com/ima...esP/plr784.gif

That's a nice one - the site has a bunch of nice cutters:
http://www.shorinternational.com/pliersend.htm
The 2nd one down, the "Oblique Flush Cut Nippers" ($168.00) looks very
well made G.

Bob

I have seen the same ones in other places. They may need a bit of work
on a belt sander to shape them some.

--
Steve W.

On Mar 21, 5:22*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
...
The 2nd one down, the "Oblique Flush Cut Nippers" ($168.00) looks very
well made G.

If you can afford to sacrifice them dikes like this work very well to
grab and lever out small nails:
http://www.adafruit.com/images/large...cutter_LRG.jpg
Pad under the hinge pin with cardboard or such to spread the pressure.
Just don't expect them to cut component leads afterwards.

I passed the word around Assembly that I collected broken cutters and
pliers to recycle into special tools.

jsw

I'd grind off the nail head - take the tin off and with a Vice-grip plier
pull the nail out.

Martin

Steve W. wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Steve W. wrote:
I think I would try using a clamp style nail puller on a slide hammer to
remove the nails. Less damage to the tin and probably much faster. I
would probably take a set of vice grips, weld a set of tapered jaws on
the end to grip under the nail head. Then attach that to a slide hammer.
I'm skeptical - I think that getting under the nail head would be more
time consuming than getting behind the tin. Here's a picture of a
sharpened pry bar getting behind the tin. The arrow points to a nail head!

With a sharp set of points it should be easier to get under the heads
than tearing the tin. Even with the paint on there. Have you tried a
GOOD cats paw?

Tin is VERY, VERY easy to damage. BTDT working on a church kitchen
ceiling. Decided that decorative tin is WAY to much trouble...
It certainly is a lot of trouble! Today we discovered that some
ceilings have gotten wet and the nails rusted. The heads come off or
the tin tears before the nails pull out. !&%$#(!

In that case I would probably try a flush cutting tool and just cut the
heads off.
This style will get in under the head
http://www.shorinternational.com/ima...esP/plr784.gif

We are being motivated by the high prices this stuff brings from the
yuppies. And it's volunteer labor being used G. There's a limit,
though, so we'll see how far it goes.

Bob

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Steve W. wrote:
... Have you tried a GOOD cats paw?

All the cat's paws I have access to are much too crude/blunt/thick. But
your post's inspired me to try making one.

OK - I did make one. I took an old 1/4" wood chisel & ground away the
part that wasn't a cat's paw. Very sharp edge.

No good. The problem is that the tin is only 30 ga (.012) and when
nailed up, the nail dimples the tin very slightly. The nail is actually
countersunk a bit - just enough to make getting under the nail very
difficult. Damaging the tin more than desirable.

Getting a pry bar behind the tin is really the way to go.

Thanks,
Bob

Jim Wilkins wrote:

... dikes like this work very well to grab and lever out small nails:
http://www.adafruit.com/images/large...cutter_LRG.jpg
....

I took an old pair if linesman's pliers and cut/ground them down to be
end nippers. Well, end grabbers. Even though I made the ends sharp,
they would not get under the head. Because of the slight countersinking
I mentioned above.

Bob

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
... Today we discovered that some
ceilings have gotten wet and the nails rusted. The heads come off or
the tin tears before the nails pull out. !&%$#(!
....

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
I'd grind off the nail head - take the tin off and with a Vice-grip
plier pull the nail out.

Ah - that's what I thought, too. I tried it today - too much collateral
damage, as they say, to the tin. Again the problem is with the nails
being slightly countersunk. That and working over your head while
standing on a step ladder.

It keep coming back to prying off from behind. As many alternatives
that I try, it's still the best: fastest,easiest, safest.

Thanks,
Bob

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:39:48 -0400, the infamous Bob Engelhardt
scrawled the following:

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
... Today we discovered that some
ceilings have gotten wet and the nails rusted. The heads come off or
the tin tears before the nails pull out. !&%$#(!
...

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
I'd grind off the nail head - take the tin off and with a Vice-grip
plier pull the nail out.

Ah - that's what I thought, too. I tried it today - too much collateral
damage, as they say, to the tin. Again the problem is with the nails
being slightly countersunk. That and working over your head while
standing on a step ladder.

Were you using a small, sintered carbide ball? (and 3 layers of eye
protection?)


It keep coming back to prying off from behind. As many alternatives
that I try, it's still the best: fastest,easiest, safest.

I hear that. Didja try one of those little Satanley or Vaughan
mini-bars yet? Alternatively, make your own tiny cat's paw out of
1/4" rod. Flatten, curve, notch, grind, and harden/temper. I wonder
if a standard 8" timber spike/nail might work. They're pretty tough.

--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that we can do, we
shall ere long be surprised to find how little remains that we cannot do.
-- Samuel Butler

Larry Jaques wrote:
[re - grinding head off nails]

Were you using a small, sintered carbide ball?

No, but that's a good idea. I was using a cylindrical carbide burr. I
don't have a carbide ball, but I do have an HSS one that I can use for a
trial.

(and 3 layers of eye protection?)

Indeed - those burrs send out millions of TINY, needle-like, slivers!

Thanks,
Bob

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:32:36 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:

... dikes like this work very well to grab and lever out small nails:
http://www.adafruit.com/images/large...cutter_LRG.jpg
...

I took an old pair if linesman's pliers and cut/ground them down to be
end nippers. Well, end grabbers. Even though I made the ends sharp,
they would not get under the head. Because of the slight countersinking
I mentioned above.

Bob

I wonder if a really powerful magnet might be utilized to get the
nails out far enough to get a good grip?

Snarl

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:

... dikes like this work very well to grab and lever out small nails:
http://www.adafruit.com/images/large...cutter_LRG.jpg
...

I took an old pair if linesman's pliers and cut/ground them down to be
end nippers. Well, end grabbers. Even though I made the ends sharp,
they would not get under the head. Because of the slight countersinking
I mentioned above.

Place the jaws of the pliers so that they are just over, but not
engaging the nail head. Push _up_, _hard_. See if that gives you
clearance to grab the head.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

Tim Wescott wrote:
Place the jaws of the pliers so that they are just over, but not
engaging the nail head. Push _up_, _hard_. See if that gives you
clearance to grab the head.

No way. But, what DID work was to hold the pliers there and tap _up_
with a hammer. A mallet, actually, with a head big enough to hit both
handles at once.

The majority of nails can be pried from behind, but the rusty ones can't
and this should "work a treat" on them.

Thanks,
Bob

On Mar 25, 7:08*am, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Tim Wescott wrote:
Place the jaws of the pliers so that they are just over, but not
engaging the nail head. *Push _up_, _hard_. *See if that gives you
clearance to grab the head.

No way. *But, what DID work was to hold the pliers there and tap _up_
with a hammer. *A mallet, actually, with a head big enough to hit both
handles at once.

The majority of nails can be pried from behind, but the rusty ones can't
and this should "work a treat" on them.

Thanks,
Bob

How about a nice sticky gooey acid that will eat the nail and not the
ceiling tile?

Just remember, do not check acid progress with remaining eye...


Dave

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:59:05 -0400, the infamous Bob Engelhardt
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:
[re - grinding head off nails]

Were you using a small, sintered carbide ball?

No, but that's a good idea. I was using a cylindrical carbide burr. I
don't have a carbide ball, but I do have an HSS one that I can use for a
trial.

And how much harder do you expect the HSS ball to be tahn the head of
a hardened nail, hmmm? There goes a good burr. And when a burr goes,
it sometimes loses pieces. They're dangerous little guys.

Stone burrs can work, too, if someone donates several dozen. They
grind themselves down really fast on metal and also shoot pieces when
they go.

(std disclaimer, googledit) http://www.duragrit.com/ The shape and
type I'm referring to is like these: numbers 10/13/14/18 would work.
Aim for the center of the nail head and the head pops off when you cut
through its thickness, sweet and smooth.


(and 3 layers of eye protection?)

Indeed - those burrs send out millions of TINY, needle-like, slivers!

Yeah, nasty stuff which bounces off your cheak, into your glasses and
then right into your eye.

P.S: Don't forget muffs or plugs. It's noisy as hell.

--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that we can do, we
shall ere long be surprised to find how little remains that we cannot do.
-- Samuel Butler

On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 07:08:51 -0400, the infamous Bob Engelhardt
scrawled the following:

Tim Wescott wrote:
Place the jaws of the pliers so that they are just over, but not
engaging the nail head. Push _up_, _hard_. See if that gives you
clearance to grab the head.

No way. But, what DID work was to hold the pliers there and tap _up_
with a hammer. A mallet, actually, with a head big enough to hit both
handles at once.

The majority of nails can be pried from behind, but the rusty ones can't
and this should "work a treat" on them.

Yeah, find a piece of tubing or pipe which is just slightly larger in
diameter than the nail head and create your own puller space.


--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that we can do, we
shall ere long be surprised to find how little remains that we cannot do.
-- Samuel Butler

I think I'd try a putty knife with a V notch ground into the end of
it. A long V, with sides ground from very acute at the open end to
almost vertical at the base of the V. Use it under the tin, and with
a pushing action only - no prying. If you can get it in to the bottom
of the notch, the nail will have broken loose a bit - and you can then
push a thin prybar under the knife and use that to pry the knife, tin
and nail out. Or use a second V notch knife to lift the nail even
further before you try a prybar. This will avoid what in my
experience is the most common problem - tearing the tin at the rim of
the nail head before you can get anything under it. And it won't hurt
the show surface of the tin at all.

So a putty knife wouldn't be long enough working under the tin? Check
McMaster or other sources and you'll find many different similar
knives, spatulas and scrapers, but much longer and stronger.
Printer's ink knives come to mind.

Just my thoughts, though.

John Martin

What's that Lassie? You say that Bob Engelhardt fell down the old
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:39:48 -0400:

It keep coming back to prying off from behind. As many alternatives
that I try, it's still the best: fastest,easiest, safest.

Bob, how much clearance is there on the other side from where you are
working? If it is several inches, you might have luck with a long
flat blade with a groove down the middle of it( just one nail shank
wide). The blade will need to be thin and edged at the front and get
thicker as it goes back. The increasing thickness lifts the nail(and
tin) away from the ceiling.

--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

Larry Jaques wrote:

I had a section of green Chrysler torsion bar which i used as a pry
bar for years. It somehow didn't make the move with me to Oregon.

It would spring just a hair with me on the end and a about a ton of
weight leveraged at 2". I sorely miss it. It would have made a good
digging bar in my current work.


Having had a few Chrysler products when they used torsion bars, I have no doubt that chunk
of steel made a fantastic pry bar.

Wes

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
... Here's a picture of a
sharpened pry bar getting behind the tin. The arrow points to a nail head!
[no picture link]

Sorry - here it is:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/TinCeiling.jpg

Bob

Is it really tin or is it pressed steel?

Wes

Wes wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Is it really tin or is it pressed steel?

Wes

Both, kinda - tin plated steel. Like "tin" cans. Bob