Yeah, I completely agree. Everything that comes from government agencies
has to be taken with a bit of skepticism because there is an element of
politics in all of it. The government is not above cherry picking just
the research that wants so it can support the policies it wants to
implement. You can't just accept anything from the government at face
value. But I was mainly commenting about the accuracy and reliability
you get from a qualified government agency as compared to your own
personal experience. The comparison is between anecdotal and
scientifically collected data, of which there is no comparison. This is
a good example. As many people noted, they have never lost a wheel
weight. But the evidence shows that millions of tons of lead from wheel
weights are lost every year. I'll believe the government's findings in
this case over what the average guy knows any day of the week.

Hawke

A sniff test is still in order.

A DOT study estimated there to be about 250 million automobiles in the
US in 2007. If there was 1/2 lb of lead on each wheel rather than 2
or 3 ounces as is more usual, that'd be 2 lb of lead per car or about
256,000 tons total. Even if every wheel weight in the country fell off
once per year, it's still not millions of tons.



I think you're right. I think I should have said millions of pounds not
tons. But I haven't seen the actual report so I don't know which number
is right. Millions of tons does seem way too high. I may have written
tons when I meant to say pounds.

Hawke

"Hawke" wrote in message
...

Yeah, I completely agree. Everything that comes from government agencies
has to be taken with a bit of skepticism because there is an element of
politics in all of it. The government is not above cherry picking just
the research that wants so it can support the policies it wants to
implement. You can't just accept anything from the government at face
value. But I was mainly commenting about the accuracy and reliability
you get from a qualified government agency as compared to your own
personal experience. The comparison is between anecdotal and
scientifically collected data, of which there is no comparison. This is
a good example. As many people noted, they have never lost a wheel
weight. But the evidence shows that millions of tons of lead from wheel
weights are lost every year. I'll believe the government's findings in
this case over what the average guy knows any day of the week.

Hawke

A sniff test is still in order. A DOT study estimated there to be about
250 million automobiles in the
US in 2007. If there was 1/2 lb of lead on each wheel rather than 2
or 3 ounces as is more usual, that'd be 2 lb of lead per car or about
256,000 tons total. Even if every wheel weight in the country fell off
once per year, it's still not millions of tons.


I think you're right. I think I should have said millions of pounds not
tons. But I haven't seen the actual report so I don't know which number is
right. Millions of tons does seem way too high. I may have written tons
when I meant to say pounds.

Hawke

Repeated from an earlier post:

EPA estimates that 1.6 mllion pounds of wheel weights are lost from wheels
in the US annually. I think they're getting their data from several studies,
including one report by the Ecology Center that summarizes several other
studies:

http://www.epa.gov/waste/hazard/wastemin/nlfwwi.htm

http://www.leadfreewheels.org/LeadWheelWeightDocs.pdf

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 11:18:44 -0800, Hawke
wrote:


Yeah, I completely agree. Everything that comes from government agencies
has to be taken with a bit of skepticism because there is an element of
politics in all of it. The government is not above cherry picking just
the research that wants so it can support the policies it wants to
implement. You can't just accept anything from the government at face
value. But I was mainly commenting about the accuracy and reliability
you get from a qualified government agency as compared to your own
personal experience. The comparison is between anecdotal and
scientifically collected data, of which there is no comparison. This is
a good example. As many people noted, they have never lost a wheel
weight. But the evidence shows that millions of tons of lead from wheel
weights are lost every year. I'll believe the government's findings in
this case over what the average guy knows any day of the week.

Hawke

A sniff test is still in order.

A DOT study estimated there to be about 250 million automobiles in the
US in 2007. If there was 1/2 lb of lead on each wheel rather than 2
or 3 ounces as is more usual, that'd be 2 lb of lead per car or about
256,000 tons total. Even if every wheel weight in the country fell off
once per year, it's still not millions of tons.



I think you're right. I think I should have said millions of pounds not
tons. But I haven't seen the actual report so I don't know which number
is right. Millions of tons does seem way too high. I may have written
tons when I meant to say pounds.

Good timing, I'd just finished a little googling on the subject. The
number I saw several times was a half-million pounds from wheel
weights making it into the environment every year through various
routes, including landfills. That seems quite plausible, and if some
company got caught releasing even a tiny fraction of that then
sensible people would be calling for the owners to be locked up. Some
stories claim that wheel weights are reckoned to be the #1 source of
lead release right now, which explains why other countries are way
ahead in changing to other materials. Of course the nitwit denialists
will say that those other countries are all in cahoots with...
something quacky, probably communism. :-)

Some articles say that the substitutes will cost a small premium, but
this
http://www.klsupply.com/Dealer/KLSup...4/Default.aspx
says it will cost less, which makes the change a no-brainer and
probably long overdue. I had to chuckle though - some folks are having
to replace galvanized drop pipe in their wells due to the risk of zinc
contamination. Yet at least some of the new wheel weights are zinc. I
guess it's all about relative risk.

Wayne

On Jan 3, 7:54*pm, wrote:



Some articles say that the substitutes will cost a small premium, but
thishttp://www.klsupply.com/Dealer/KLSupplyDEALER/PRODUCTANNOUNCEMENT/Cal....
says it will cost less, which makes the change a no-brainer and
probably long overdue. I had to chuckle though - some folks are having
to replace galvanized drop pipe in their wells due to the risk of zinc
contamination. Yet at least some of the new wheel weights are zinc. I
guess it's all about relative risk.

Wayne

Zinc is not a big health risk. But I doubt if the substitutes will
cost less. If they did cost less, those filthy capitalists would have
already made the change.

Zinc deficiency
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zinc deficiency is a lack of sufficient zinc to meet the needs of
biological organisms. It can occur in both plants and animals. Zinc
deficient soil is soil in which there is insufficient zinc to allow
plants to grow normally.

Dan

I cited. You don't read.
Martin

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 22:30:54 -0600, the infamous "Martin H. Eastburn"
scrawled the following:

These are the fine folks that forced the low lead batteries onto us.
Those that have medium power ability and flake off to nothing.

The rational - taking lead off the road - false stats again.

Since when did the PTBs ever use rational thought to create laws?


Remember we really
use the heck out of the battery now-a-days - with the headlights
on at all times - and putting around in town without enough power
to charge a battery up, thus depleting and drawing high currents.

That's simply not true, Martin. Just running through the gears to
35mph is plenty of rpm for the alternator to maintain a full charge to
the battery.

Headlights draw 55W apiece and it takes hours to run a battery down
with the engine off. Show me cites to the battery destruction,
please. I simply don't believe it. (ex mechanic here)

For a test, with the engine idling, turn your heater, headlights, and
the radio on with your auto aimed at the garage door. You'll see the
lights dim a bit with everything on. That shows a battery discharge
situation. Now give it a tiny bit of gas. Once the RPM comes up to
about 1,000, the lights are on full, showing a charging situation.
When you're driving, even at 25mph, your RPM seldom comes below 1,000.
That's enough to keep the battery fully charged every time you drive
and it's why the car starts every time you try. STARTING is the only
high-draw situation for most car batteries.

Hell, the boombox stereos with 1kw amps take more power than the
lights nowadays, but those idiots _deserve_ to have their batteries
self- destruct. Rap "music" is a crime against nature.


This displaces large amounts of lead and this makes for a weak plate.

Cites?


Cold weather is hardest on them - electrolyte is low on ionic ability.

Up north, they use battery tapes - heater tapes for pipes ... to keep
the battery warm for better current flow and ionic exchanges.

Northerners can have that climate. I'll wait for AGWK to warm up SoOr
a bit more for me.

--
Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness.
--Thomas Paine

On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 21:25:29 -0600, the infamous "Martin H. Eastburn"
scrawled the following:

I cited. You don't read.

I didn't see a single link in that text, Martin.

--
Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness.
--Thomas Paine

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:40:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 3, 7:54*pm, wrote:



Some articles say that the substitutes will cost a small premium, but
thishttp://www.klsupply.com/Dealer/KLSupplyDEALER/PRODUCTANNOUNCEMENT/Cal...
says it will cost less, which makes the change a no-brainer and
probably long overdue. I had to chuckle though - some folks are having
to replace galvanized drop pipe in their wells due to the risk of zinc
contamination. Yet at least some of the new wheel weights are zinc. I
guess it's all about relative risk.

Wayne

Zinc is not a big health risk. But I doubt if the substitutes will
cost less. If they did cost less, those filthy capitalists would have
already made the change.

Zinc deficiency
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zinc deficiency is a lack of sufficient zinc to meet the needs of
biological organisms. It can occur in both plants and animals. Zinc
deficient soil is soil in which there is insufficient zinc to allow
plants to grow normally.

Dan


I swear I've seen "zinc pills" sold. Said to keep lead in your pencil.

Regards,

J.B.

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:40:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 3, 7:54*pm, wrote:



Some articles say that the substitutes will cost a small premium, but
this http://www.klsupply.com/Dealer/KLSup...NOUNCEMENT/Cal...
says it will cost less, which makes the change a no-brainer and
probably long overdue. I had to chuckle though - some folks are having
to replace galvanized drop pipe in their wells due to the risk of zinc
contamination. Yet at least some of the new wheel weights are zinc. I
guess it's all about relative risk.

Wayne

Zinc is not a big health risk.

http://news.discovery.com/earth/drin...amination.html
No more galvanized allowed in new or refurb commercial wells in AZ,
and probably most other places.

But I doubt if the substitutes will
cost less.

The vendor referenced in my previous post already sells them for
"substantially" less.
http://www.klsupply.com/LinkClick.as...k=284&tabid=36

If they did cost less, those filthy capitalists would have
already made the change.

Not hardly. Small business is notoriously slow to change its ways.
Lots of HVAC outfits are still sitting on the fence about heat pumps
for gawds sake.

Zinc deficiency
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zinc deficiency is a lack of sufficient zinc to meet the needs of
biological organisms. It can occur in both plants and animals. Zinc
deficient soil is soil in which there is insufficient zinc to allow
plants to grow normally.

Most people get enough zinc by eating a normal diet. I don't know the
relative risk of zinc leeching into ground water, but anything even
slightly troublesome but not controlled, is going to be a problem in
some specific places even if it's not a problem overall. For example,
if your well is red-tagged due to runoff from a road, you're not going
to be placated by claims that it's generally good for plants.

Wayne

wrote in
:

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:40:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 3, 7:54*pm, wrote:



Some articles say that the substitutes will cost a small premium,
but
thishttp://www.klsupply.com/Dealer/KLSupplyDEALER/PRODUCTANNOUNCEMENT
/Cal... says it will cost less, which makes the change a no-brainer
and probably long overdue. I had to chuckle though - some folks are
having to replace galvanized drop pipe in their wells due to the
risk of zinc contamination. Yet at least some of the new wheel
weights are zinc. I guess it's all about relative risk.

Wayne

Zinc is not a big health risk. But I doubt if the substitutes will
cost less. If they did cost less, those filthy capitalists would have
already made the change.

Zinc deficiency
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zinc deficiency is a lack of sufficient zinc to meet the needs of
biological organisms. It can occur in both plants and animals. Zinc
deficient soil is soil in which there is insufficient zinc to allow
plants to grow normally.

Dan


I swear I've seen "zinc pills" sold. Said to keep lead in your pencil.

Regards,

J.B.


Zinc promotes more rapid healing of wounds, including surgery. g

On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:02:16 +0700, wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:40:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 3, 7:54*pm, wrote:



Some articles say that the substitutes will cost a small premium, but
thishttp://www.klsupply.com/Dealer/KLSupplyDEALER/PRODUCTANNOUNCEMENT/Cal...
says it will cost less, which makes the change a no-brainer and
probably long overdue. I had to chuckle though - some folks are having
to replace galvanized drop pipe in their wells due to the risk of zinc
contamination. Yet at least some of the new wheel weights are zinc. I
guess it's all about relative risk.

Wayne

Zinc is not a big health risk. But I doubt if the substitutes will
cost less. If they did cost less, those filthy capitalists would have
already made the change.

Zinc deficiency
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zinc deficiency is a lack of sufficient zinc to meet the needs of
biological organisms. It can occur in both plants and animals. Zinc
deficient soil is soil in which there is insufficient zinc to allow
plants to grow normally.

Dan


I swear I've seen "zinc pills" sold. Said to keep lead in your pencil.

For sure, and most of them are probably like the diet pills, memory
enhancement pills etc. Apparently there are a lot of people who
"believe" in zinc for alleviating the symptoms of a cold. Even though
studies are inconclusive and debatable, as with C there are probably
people taking silly amounts of zinc every time they get a sniffle. I
asked my wife about it since she keeps up with this stuff. She says
that she's serving up a little zinc whenever our diet is low on meat,
but that the tablets available are something like 3 times larger than
what we ever need, so she carves them up.
http://dietary-supplements.info.nih....heets/Zinc.asp

Wayne

On Jan 4, 3:02*pm, wrote:

The vendor referenced in my previous post already sells them for
"substantially" less.http://www.klsupply.com/LinkClick.as...k=284&tabid=36

*If they did cost less, those filthy capitalists would have
already made the change.

Not hardly. Small business is notoriously slow to change its ways.
Lots of HVAC outfits are still sitting on the fence about heat pumps
for gawds sake.

Wayne

I always like numbers instead of words like " substantially ". So I
looked on the internet and found 2 oz. Zinc wheel weights at 25 for $
28.76. And 2 oz. Lead wheel weights at 50 for $26.75. So the ones I
found are twice as expensive for Zinc wheel weights. You may be able
to find different prices. These are just the first ones I could
find. Not a definitive search.


Dan

wrote in message
...
On Jan 4, 3:02 pm, wrote:

The vendor referenced in my previous post already sells them for
"substantially"
less.http://www.klsupply.com/LinkClick.as...k=284&tabid=36

If they did cost less, those filthy capitalists would have
already made the change.

Not hardly. Small business is notoriously slow to change its ways.
Lots of HVAC outfits are still sitting on the fence about heat pumps
for gawds sake.

Wayne

I always like numbers instead of words like " substantially ". So I
looked on the internet and found 2 oz. Zinc wheel weights at 25 for $
28.76. And 2 oz. Lead wheel weights at 50 for $26.75. So the ones I
found are twice as expensive for Zinc wheel weights. You may be able
to find different prices. These are just the first ones I could
find. Not a definitive search.

Dan

It's probably just a market adjusting to a regulation. Materials costs are
roughly the same -- as of 12/31/09, $1.09/lb for lead, $1.17/lb for zinc.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 08:10:48 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:02:16 +0700, wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:40:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 3, 7:54*pm, wrote:



Some articles say that the substitutes will cost a small premium, but
thishttp://www.klsupply.com/Dealer/KLSupplyDEALER/PRODUCTANNOUNCEMENT/Cal...
says it will cost less, which makes the change a no-brainer and
probably long overdue. I had to chuckle though - some folks are having
to replace galvanized drop pipe in their wells due to the risk of zinc
contamination. Yet at least some of the new wheel weights are zinc. I
guess it's all about relative risk.

Wayne

Zinc is not a big health risk. But I doubt if the substitutes will
cost less. If they did cost less, those filthy capitalists would have
already made the change.

Zinc deficiency
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zinc deficiency is a lack of sufficient zinc to meet the needs of
biological organisms. It can occur in both plants and animals. Zinc
deficient soil is soil in which there is insufficient zinc to allow
plants to grow normally.

Dan


I swear I've seen "zinc pills" sold. Said to keep lead in your pencil.

For sure, and most of them are probably like the diet pills, memory
enhancement pills etc. Apparently there are a lot of people who
"believe" in zinc for alleviating the symptoms of a cold. Even though
studies are inconclusive and debatable, as with C there are probably
people taking silly amounts of zinc every time they get a sniffle. I
asked my wife about it since she keeps up with this stuff. She says
that she's serving up a little zinc whenever our diet is low on meat,
but that the tablets available are something like 3 times larger than
what we ever need, so she carves them up.
http://dietary-supplements.info.nih....heets/Zinc.asp

Wayne

Probably cheaper just to use galvanized plumbing :-)

Regards,

J.B.