Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home in a
few days.

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a foot
locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that ain't the
case now.

I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus and
foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where and what to
purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

Has the obama ammo scare passed yet? In other words should I wait a few
months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of trap shot
shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in competition. I find
reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

Karl

"Karl Townsend" wrote in
anews.com:

Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home
in a few days.

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a
foot locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that
ain't the case now.

I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus
and foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where
and what to purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

Has the obama ammo scare passed yet? In other words should I wait a
few months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of
trap shot shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in
competition. I find reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

The situation is slowly improving. Stuff like primers that were non-
existent for a long time are beginning to show up in stores again.
Howwever, prices are generally still quite high, or they may have
quantity restrictions. A friend on mine with an FFL talked to CCI, and
they swear they are selling primers for the same wholesale price they did
a year ago, but the retail price is up by $5 to $10 per K (20% - 30%).
There are some places that are really gouging, charging $40 or even
$60/K. I'm making a note not to do business with them in the future.
Rifle ammo is available, but as you've discovered, the prices are high &
the selection limited. I suspect the pipeline of surplus ammo has been
exahusted for quite some time to come.

Your best bet is to find a gun show nearby. The competition tends to
keep prices down, and you will get the best selection in one place. get
there early, and bring a folding handcart if you are planning on buying
much ammo.

Doug White

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:03:07 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home in a
few days.

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a foot
locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that ain't the
case now.

I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus and
foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where and what to
purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

Has the obama ammo scare passed yet? In other words should I wait a few
months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of trap shot
shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in competition. I find
reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

Karl

Karl...frankly..Id handload the ammo. You can load it for about $0.25 a
round or less.

Find the load that shoots the best in your firearm..then simply crank em
out. And Id consider purchasing a Dillon XL 650 reloading machine. With
the stuff for .308. Used is fine. Check Craigslist, Ebay, the various
websites.

Once you set it up..you simply feed in bullets and cases and just pull
the handle.

As for powder and components..I believe Id wait a few months if you
think you can do so. Shrug....$0.045 cents a primer isnt a lot..but it
adds up in a hurry

Prices will continue to fall after the first of the year. I just dont
know how far down they will go. The economy is still far far from the
bottom and things are still going downhill.
DISCLAIMER: The content does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either
my ISP, myself, my company or employer, my friends (if any,) my goldfish or
my neighbour's mad dog; don't quote me on that; don't quote me on anything;
all rights reserved; the post is distribution copyrighted to the extent that
you may distribute the post and all its associated parts freely but you may
not make a profit from it or include the post in commercial publications
without written permission from the Prime Minister of Hutt Province; other
copyright laws for specific posts apply wherever noted or not noted, either
deliberately, negligently, or otherwise; posts are subject to change without
notice; posts are slightly enlarged to show detail; any resemblance to
actual persons, living or dead, is unintentional and purely coincidental;
hand wash only, tumble dry on low heat; do not bend, fold, mutilate, or
spindle; do not pass go; do not collect $200; your mileage may vary; no
substitutions allowed; for a limited time only; the post is void where
prohibited, taxed, or otherwise restricted; the post is provided "as is"
without any warranties expressed or implied; user assumes full liabilities;
not liable for damages due to use or misuse; an equal opportunity abuse
employer; no shoes, no shirt; quantities are limited while supplies last; if
defects are discovered, do not attempt to fix them yourself but return to an
authorised post service centre; caveat emptor; read at your own risk;
parental advisory - explicit words; text may contain material some readers
may find objectionable, parental guidance is advised; not suitable for
children; not suitable for adults; not for human consumption; keep away from
sunlight, pets and small children; limit one-per-family; no money down; no
purchase necessary; to approved purchasers only; facsimiles are acceptable
in South Australia; you need not be present to read this post; some assembly
required; batteries not included; action figures sold separately; no
preservatives added; tools not included; safety goggles may be required
during use; sealed for your protection, do not use if the safety seal is
broken; call before you dig; for external use only; if a rash, redness,
irritation or swelling develops, discontinue use; use only with proper
ventilation; avoid extreme temperatures and store in a cool, dry place; keep
away from open flames, naked flames and old flames; avoid inhaling fumes;
avoid contact with mucous membranes; do not puncture, incinerate, or store
above 60 degrees Centigrade; do not place near flammable or magnetic source;
smoking the post may be hazardous to your health; the best safeguard, second
only to abstinence, is the use of a good laugh; text used on the post is
made from 100% recycled electrons and magnetic particles; no animals were
used to test the hilarity of this post other than Synapse Syndrome; no salt,
MSG, artificial colour or flavour added; may contain traces of replies to
peanuts; if ingested, do not induce vomiting, if symptoms persist, consult
your humourologist; post is ribbed for your pleasure; slippery when wet;
must be 18 to read; possible penalties for early withdrawal; post offer
valid only in participating newsgroups; slightly higher in South Australia;
allow four to six weeks for delivery; damage from hurricane, lightning,
tornado, tsunami, volcanic eruption, earthquake, flood, orgasm, misuse,
self-abuse, neglect, unauthorised repair, damage from improper installation,
broken antenna, marred cabinet, incorrect line voltage, missing or altered
serial numbers, sonic boom vibrations, electromagnetic radiation from
nuclear blasts or other Acts of God are not covered; incidents owing to
aeroplane crash, ship sinking, motor vehicle accidents, leaky roof, broken
glass, falling rocks, mud

On Nov 10, 10:03*am, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home in a
few days.

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a foot
locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that ain't the
case now.

I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus and
foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where and what to
purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

Has the obama ammo scare passed yet? In other words should I wait a few
months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of trap shot
shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in competition. I find
reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

Karl

Check out 'cheaper than dirt - latest caytalogue.
They offer Federal 'Eagle' 150Gr. FMJ at $15.99/box of 20. (Shoots MOA
accurate out of my rifle.)
www.cheaperthandirt.com

Karl...frankly..Id handload the ammo. You can load it for about $0.25 a
round or less.

Find the load that shoots the best in your firearm..then simply crank em
out. And Id consider purchasing a Dillon XL 650 reloading machine. With
the stuff for .308. Used is fine. Check Craigslist, Ebay, the various
websites.

Once you set it up..you simply feed in bullets and cases and just pull
the handle.

As for powder and components..I believe Id wait a few months if you
think you can do so. Shrug....$0.045 cents a primer isnt a lot..but it
adds up in a hurry

Looks like I need to get in the hand load bidness. I ordered 250 rounds
today with four different made in USA brands. I'll sight the gun in and see
what it likes.

Karl

"Karl Townsend" wrote:

Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home in a
few days.

I starting to hate you

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a foot
locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that ain't the
case now.

It has been that way since we figured out Obama was going to win. A bit of panic a bit of
knowing the traits of those in power. The art of diplomacy is saying nice doggie, nice
doggie while looking for a rock to bash its brains out. For many in Washington, we are
the doggies.


I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus and
foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where and what to
purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

http://www.hi-techammo.com/ Currently out of stock on what you need. Back when I shot
Highpower with a M1 Garand, these are the guys I bought from.


Has the obama ammo scare passed yet? In other words should I wait a few
months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of trap shot
shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in competition. I find
reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

I'd start learning how to hand load. Most of the operations are fairly mechanical, no
brainer stuff you can do while watching tv.

The primer, powder and bullet seating part, you really need to pay attention to.

Well, I usually used a Lee Autoprime. I'd prime cases while watching tv. It has good
feel and you can do that half aware.

Really Pay Attention to the Following:

Use a loading block after charging cases with powder, pay good attention, shine maglight
down each case to see powder level, 1 of every x cases checks of powder measure to keep
things safe and honest.

Cross check any load with other manuals. Keep in mind that 20 year old powder might not
match up with last years manual and vs versa.



Wes

--

One Big Assed Mistake America.

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:16:04 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



Karl...frankly..Id handload the ammo. You can load it for about $0.25 a
round or less.

Find the load that shoots the best in your firearm..then simply crank em
out. And Id consider purchasing a Dillon XL 650 reloading machine. With
the stuff for .308. Used is fine. Check Craigslist, Ebay, the various
websites.

Once you set it up..you simply feed in bullets and cases and just pull
the handle.

As for powder and components..I believe Id wait a few months if you
think you can do so. Shrug....$0.045 cents a primer isnt a lot..but it
adds up in a hurry

Looks like I need to get in the hand load bidness. I ordered 250 rounds
today with four different made in USA brands. I'll sight the gun in and see
what it likes.

Karl


Ah...thats not how it works if you are planning on handloading.

You load 5 of a given bullet, primer and powder weight. Load the
lightest load in the manual.

Load 5 more, using .5gr more powder

Load 5 more, using an additonal .5gr more powder

etc etc until you reach maxium recommended powder


Then go to the range and carefuly shoot the first 5, measure group

then shoot the 2nd 5, measure group

then shoot the 3rd 5..measure group

Continue until you have fired all your loads and then use the best
loading you found

Give the rifle a minute between shots, 5 minutes between groups of 5

This allows any over heating of barrel and action to be minimized and
you will have far far less flyers.

Use a good sandbag rest when shooting and aim at the same tiny aiming
point each time.

This will show you what your gun likes.

Factory ammo will shoot perhaps in 2" (example only) and you will find a
given loading that will shoot under 1" (example only) (often much
smaller)

That way...if you do need highly accurate fire, you will have that ammo
in your weapon.

Then battle rattle off 10 rounds and find out where they go when the
barrel gets hot. Something you MUST need to know.

Btw..in the 308...the Hornaday 168gr JHP is not always the best bullet.
Sometimes the 155 Palma or whatever will shoot far better.

Ive a Ruger 77V....heavy barrel varminter in 308..that prefers the 150
gr boat tail from Sierra. Another heavy barrel in .308 shoots 168s much
better but loves the 175gr Match Kings.

Shrug...

Gunner

DISCLAIMER: The content does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either
my ISP, myself, my company or employer, my friends (if any,) my goldfish or
my neighbour's mad dog; don't quote me on that; don't quote me on anything;
all rights reserved; the post is distribution copyrighted to the extent that
you may distribute the post and all its associated parts freely but you may
not make a profit from it or include the post in commercial publications
without written permission from the Prime Minister of Hutt Province; other
copyright laws for specific posts apply wherever noted or not noted, either
deliberately, negligently, or otherwise; posts are subject to change without
notice; posts are slightly enlarged to show detail; any resemblance to
actual persons, living or dead, is unintentional and purely coincidental;
hand wash only, tumble dry on low heat; do not bend, fold, mutilate, or
spindle; do not pass go; do not collect $200; your mileage may vary; no
substitutions allowed; for a limited time only; the post is void where
prohibited, taxed, or otherwise restricted; the post is provided "as is"
without any warranties expressed or implied; user assumes full liabilities;
not liable for damages due to use or misuse; an equal opportunity abuse
employer; no shoes, no shirt; quantities are limited while supplies last; if
defects are discovered, do not attempt to fix them yourself but return to an
authorised post service centre; caveat emptor; read at your own risk;
parental advisory - explicit words; text may contain material some readers
may find objectionable, parental guidance is advised; not suitable for
children; not suitable for adults; not for human consumption; keep away from
sunlight, pets and small children; limit one-per-family; no money down; no
purchase necessary; to approved purchasers only; facsimiles are acceptable
in South Australia; you need not be present to read this post; some assembly
required; batteries not included; action figures sold separately; no
preservatives added; tools not included; safety goggles may be required
during use; sealed for your protection, do not use if the safety seal is
broken; call before you dig; for external use only; if a rash, redness,
irritation or swelling develops, discontinue use; use only with proper
ventilation; avoid extreme temperatures and store in a cool, dry place; keep
away from open flames, naked flames and old flames; avoid inhaling fumes;
avoid contact with mucous membranes; do not puncture, incinerate, or store
above 60 degrees Centigrade; do not place near flammable or magnetic source;
smoking the post may be hazardous to your health; the best safeguard, second
only to abstinence, is the use of a good laugh; text used on the post is
made from 100% recycled electrons and magnetic particles; no animals were
used to test the hilarity of this post other than Synapse Syndrome; no salt,
MSG, artificial colour or flavour added; may contain traces of replies to
peanuts; if ingested, do not induce vomiting, if symptoms persist, consult
your humourologist; post is ribbed for your pleasure; slippery when wet;
must be 18 to read; possible penalties for early withdrawal; post offer
valid only in participating newsgroups; slightly higher in South Australia;
allow four to six weeks for delivery; damage from hurricane, lightning,
tornado, tsunami, volcanic eruption, earthquake, flood, orgasm, misuse,
self-abuse, neglect, unauthorised repair, damage from improper installation,
broken antenna, marred cabinet, incorrect line voltage, missing or altered
serial numbers, sonic boom vibrations, electromagnetic radiation from
nuclear blasts or other Acts of God are not covered; incidents owing to
aeroplane crash, ship sinking, motor vehicle accidents, leaky roof, broken
glass, falling rocks, mud

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:31:43 -0500, Wes wrote:

"Karl Townsend" wrote:

Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home in a
few days.

I starting to hate you

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a foot
locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that ain't the
case now.

It has been that way since we figured out Obama was going to win. A bit of panic a bit of
knowing the traits of those in power. The art of diplomacy is saying nice doggie, nice
doggie while looking for a rock to bash its brains out. For many in Washington, we are
the doggies.


I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus and
foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where and what to
purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

http://www.hi-techammo.com/ Currently out of stock on what you need. Back when I shot
Highpower with a M1 Garand, these are the guys I bought from.


Has the obama ammo scare passed yet? In other words should I wait a few
months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of trap shot
shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in competition. I find
reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

I'd start learning how to hand load. Most of the operations are fairly mechanical, no
brainer stuff you can do while watching tv.

The primer, powder and bullet seating part, you really need to pay attention to.

Well, I usually used a Lee Autoprime. I'd prime cases while watching tv. It has good
feel and you can do that half aware.

Really Pay Attention to the Following:

Use a loading block after charging cases with powder, pay good attention, shine maglight
down each case to see powder level, 1 of every x cases checks of powder measure to keep
things safe and honest.

Good suggestions all. The AutoPrime is a great tool while watching the
TV.

Cross check any load with other manuals. Keep in mind that 20 year old powder might not
match up with last years manual and vs versa.

Indeed. So if changing out to a new quanity of powder..reduce 10% and
work up an accurate load again.

Which is why I generally buy 8lb kegs rather than 1 lb cans. I can load
a ****load more cartridges before having to change load dynamics. This
for rifles btw..handguns are far less "sensitive"

Or try to buy a bunch of 1lb cans known to be from a given many ton lot,
all marked the same.

Gunner




Wes

DISCLAIMER: The content does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either
my ISP, myself, my company or employer, my friends (if any,) my goldfish or
my neighbour's mad dog; don't quote me on that; don't quote me on anything;
all rights reserved; the post is distribution copyrighted to the extent that
you may distribute the post and all its associated parts freely but you may
not make a profit from it or include the post in commercial publications
without written permission from the Prime Minister of Hutt Province; other
copyright laws for specific posts apply wherever noted or not noted, either
deliberately, negligently, or otherwise; posts are subject to change without
notice; posts are slightly enlarged to show detail; any resemblance to
actual persons, living or dead, is unintentional and purely coincidental;
hand wash only, tumble dry on low heat; do not bend, fold, mutilate, or
spindle; do not pass go; do not collect $200; your mileage may vary; no
substitutions allowed; for a limited time only; the post is void where
prohibited, taxed, or otherwise restricted; the post is provided "as is"
without any warranties expressed or implied; user assumes full liabilities;
not liable for damages due to use or misuse; an equal opportunity abuse
employer; no shoes, no shirt; quantities are limited while supplies last; if
defects are discovered, do not attempt to fix them yourself but return to an
authorised post service centre; caveat emptor; read at your own risk;
parental advisory - explicit words; text may contain material some readers
may find objectionable, parental guidance is advised; not suitable for
children; not suitable for adults; not for human consumption; keep away from
sunlight, pets and small children; limit one-per-family; no money down; no
purchase necessary; to approved purchasers only; facsimiles are acceptable
in South Australia; you need not be present to read this post; some assembly
required; batteries not included; action figures sold separately; no
preservatives added; tools not included; safety goggles may be required
during use; sealed for your protection, do not use if the safety seal is
broken; call before you dig; for external use only; if a rash, redness,
irritation or swelling develops, discontinue use; use only with proper
ventilation; avoid extreme temperatures and store in a cool, dry place; keep
away from open flames, naked flames and old flames; avoid inhaling fumes;
avoid contact with mucous membranes; do not puncture, incinerate, or store
above 60 degrees Centigrade; do not place near flammable or magnetic source;
smoking the post may be hazardous to your health; the best safeguard, second
only to abstinence, is the use of a good laugh; text used on the post is
made from 100% recycled electrons and magnetic particles; no animals were
used to test the hilarity of this post other than Synapse Syndrome; no salt,
MSG, artificial colour or flavour added; may contain traces of replies to
peanuts; if ingested, do not induce vomiting, if symptoms persist, consult
your humourologist; post is ribbed for your pleasure; slippery when wet;
must be 18 to read; possible penalties for early withdrawal; post offer
valid only in participating newsgroups; slightly higher in South Australia;
allow four to six weeks for delivery; damage from hurricane, lightning,
tornado, tsunami, volcanic eruption, earthquake, flood, orgasm, misuse,
self-abuse, neglect, unauthorised repair, damage from improper installation,
broken antenna, marred cabinet, incorrect line voltage, missing or altered
serial numbers, sonic boom vibrations, electromagnetic radiation from
nuclear blasts or other Acts of God are not covered; incidents owing to
aeroplane crash, ship sinking, motor vehicle accidents, leaky roof, broken
glass, falling rocks, mud

Karl Townsend wrote:
Karl...frankly..Id handload the ammo. You can load it for about $0.25 a
round or less.

Find the load that shoots the best in your firearm..then simply crank em
out. And Id consider purchasing a Dillon XL 650 reloading machine. With
the stuff for .308. Used is fine. Check Craigslist, Ebay, the various
websites.

Once you set it up..you simply feed in bullets and cases and just pull
the handle.

As for powder and components..I believe Id wait a few months if you
think you can do so. Shrug....$0.045 cents a primer isnt a lot..but it
adds up in a hurry

Looks like I need to get in the hand load bidness. I ordered 250 rounds
today with four different made in USA brands. I'll sight the gun in and see
what it likes.

Karl




No cheap ammo out there unless it's a C&R type. The 5.56 and 30-06 stuff
has dried up. I did manage to hunt up 500 rounds of .308 for a good
price a few weeks ago but it's getting REALLY scarce.

I keep some .223, .308, 30-06 and .50 on hand. Not as many as I'd like
but I sold some off to friends.

I do load some of my own, especially the .50 stuff. I have three
different presses plus a couple hand loaders for shot shells.

--
Steve W.

Ah...thats not how it works if you are planning on handloading.

You load 5 of a given bullet, primer and powder weight. Load the
lightest load in the manual.

Load 5 more, using .5gr more powder

Load 5 more, using an additonal .5gr more powder

etc etc until you reach maxium recommended powder


Then go to the range and carefuly shoot the first 5, measure group

then shoot the 2nd 5, measure group

then shoot the 3rd 5..measure group

Continue until you have fired all your loads and then use the best
loading you found

Give the rifle a minute between shots, 5 minutes between groups of 5

This allows any over heating of barrel and action to be minimized and
you will have far far less flyers.

Use a good sandbag rest when shooting and aim at the same tiny aiming
point each time.

This will show you what your gun likes.

Factory ammo will shoot perhaps in 2" (example only) and you will find a
given loading that will shoot under 1" (example only) (often much
smaller)

That way...if you do need highly accurate fire, you will have that ammo
in your weapon.

Then battle rattle off 10 rounds and find out where they go when the
barrel gets hot. Something you MUST need to know.

Btw..in the 308...the Hornaday 168gr JHP is not always the best bullet.
Sometimes the 155 Palma or whatever will shoot far better.

Ive a Ruger 77V....heavy barrel varminter in 308..that prefers the 150
gr boat tail from Sierra. Another heavy barrel in .308 shoots 168s much
better but loves the 175gr Match Kings.


Thanks for all the good advice, Gunner. This has not been my area of
expertise. The way the world has been going the last year or so, I'm moving
a personal firearm supply way up in priority.

Karl

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on
or about Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:34:07 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Looks like I need to get in the hand load bidness. I ordered 250 rounds
today with four different made in USA brands. I'll sight the gun in and see
what it likes.

Karl


Ah...thats not how it works if you are planning on handloading.

You load 5 of a given bullet, primer and powder weight. Load the
lightest load in the manual.

Load 5 more, using .5gr more powder

Load 5 more, using an additonal .5gr more powder

etc etc until you reach maxium recommended powder


Then go to the range and carefuly shoot the first 5, measure group

then shoot the 2nd 5, measure group

then shoot the 3rd 5..measure group

Continue until you have fired all your loads and then use the best
loading you found

Give the rifle a minute between shots, 5 minutes between groups of 5

This allows any over heating of barrel and action to be minimized and
you will have far far less flyers.

Question from the newbie in the back. What kind of impact would
doing this in winter over summer have? I mean, a rifle straight out
of the travel case in the back of a pickup is going to be a bit cooler
than one that rode inside the cab with you. And in winter it can get
a bit chilly in back - is that going to make much of a difference?
(Of course, the way I shoot - it probably wouldn't.)

exeunt (furiously scribbling notes.)


pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Let the Record show that Larry Jaques
on or about Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:35:02 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:03:07 -0600, the infamous "Karl Townsend"
scrawled the following:

Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home in a
few days.

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a foot
locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that ain't the
case now.

I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus and
foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where and what to
purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

Has the obama ammo scare passed yet?

Um, not in the slightest.


In other words should I wait a few
months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of trap shot
shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in competition. I find
reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

I'd recommend settling on a case of Wolf for now, then get more later,
when prices relax. If a revolution happened, you wouldn't want to be
caught without plenty of defensive ammo in stock, Karl.

Yea and amen. No ammo is worse than crappy ammo. Unfortunately,
if the balloon really goes up, you may be able to just "pick up" the
good stuff.


pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:17:07 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on
or about Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:34:07 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Looks like I need to get in the hand load bidness. I ordered 250 rounds
today with four different made in USA brands. I'll sight the gun in and see
what it likes.

Karl


Ah...thats not how it works if you are planning on handloading.

You load 5 of a given bullet, primer and powder weight. Load the
lightest load in the manual.

Load 5 more, using .5gr more powder

Load 5 more, using an additonal .5gr more powder

etc etc until you reach maxium recommended powder


Then go to the range and carefuly shoot the first 5, measure group

then shoot the 2nd 5, measure group

then shoot the 3rd 5..measure group

Continue until you have fired all your loads and then use the best
loading you found

Give the rifle a minute between shots, 5 minutes between groups of 5

This allows any over heating of barrel and action to be minimized and
you will have far far less flyers.

Question from the newbie in the back. What kind of impact would
doing this in winter over summer have? I mean, a rifle straight out
of the travel case in the back of a pickup is going to be a bit cooler
than one that rode inside the cab with you. And in winter it can get
a bit chilly in back - is that going to make much of a difference?
(Of course, the way I shoot - it probably wouldn't.)

exeunt (furiously scribbling notes.)


pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

After working up your load, clean the piece and put it away the same
way you plan to use it. Next day, take it out cold and fire one shot
at an appropriate target. Adjust sights to (theoretically )put the
bullet in the aiming point. Take as many days as youneed until you
are comfortable with a first shot from a cold barrel. THAT'S the
money shot!

Bob

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:17:07 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the Record show that Larry Jaques
on or about Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:35:02 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:03:07 -0600, the infamous "Karl Townsend"
scrawled the following:

Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home in a
few days.

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a foot
locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that ain't the
case now.

I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus and
foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where and what to
purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

Has the obama ammo scare passed yet?

Um, not in the slightest.


In other words should I wait a few
months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of trap shot
shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in competition. I find
reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

I'd recommend settling on a case of Wolf for now, then get more later,
when prices relax. If a revolution happened, you wouldn't want to be
caught without plenty of defensive ammo in stock, Karl.

Yea and amen. No ammo is worse than crappy ammo. Unfortunately,
if the balloon really goes up, you may be able to just "pick up" the
good stuff.


Depends on how many National Guard/Military you have in the area.

Got a friend in a military organization? Ask him about a couple cans of
7.62x51 ammo and see if it can fall off a truck.

Unlinking is a tedious job..but it goes quick.

250 rds per can when linked. IRRC.

Gunner


pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:31:30 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


Ah...thats not how it works if you are planning on handloading.

You load 5 of a given bullet, primer and powder weight. Load the
lightest load in the manual.

Load 5 more, using .5gr more powder

Load 5 more, using an additonal .5gr more powder

etc etc until you reach maxium recommended powder


Then go to the range and carefuly shoot the first 5, measure group

then shoot the 2nd 5, measure group

then shoot the 3rd 5..measure group

Continue until you have fired all your loads and then use the best
loading you found

Give the rifle a minute between shots, 5 minutes between groups of 5

This allows any over heating of barrel and action to be minimized and
you will have far far less flyers.

Use a good sandbag rest when shooting and aim at the same tiny aiming
point each time.

This will show you what your gun likes.

Factory ammo will shoot perhaps in 2" (example only) and you will find a
given loading that will shoot under 1" (example only) (often much
smaller)

That way...if you do need highly accurate fire, you will have that ammo
in your weapon.

Then battle rattle off 10 rounds and find out where they go when the
barrel gets hot. Something you MUST need to know.

Btw..in the 308...the Hornaday 168gr JHP is not always the best bullet.
Sometimes the 155 Palma or whatever will shoot far better.

Ive a Ruger 77V....heavy barrel varminter in 308..that prefers the 150
gr boat tail from Sierra. Another heavy barrel in .308 shoots 168s much
better but loves the 175gr Match Kings.


Thanks for all the good advice, Gunner. This has not been my area of
expertise. The way the world has been going the last year or so, I'm moving
a personal firearm supply way up in priority.

Karl

It cant hurt to have sufficent quantities of ammo on hand. And if
nothing happens..you can use it for years, pass it on to the grand kids
etc etc.

Ive got "somewhere over" xx firearms here at the homestead..and I keep
40 rounds for each of the unusual, seldom fired etc etc dust collectors.
But the ones I shoot a lot, or the ones I hope Ill never have to shoot a
lot..but suspect I may have to..have copious amounts of ammo on hand,
all neatly labled for each weapon its been loaded for. And of course, I
keep factory stocks..usually military, on hand for battle rifles and
combat handguns.

Shrug..the factory stuff lasts forever if stored properly and worst
comes to worst..it can be sold for as much or more than you paid for it.

I dont sell any of mine..but my widow could if worst comes to worst.
And the handloads are generally in MTM 100 round boxes or MTM 50s, with
an internal label of loading data, powder lot and so forth, along with
the serial number of the weapon it was loaded for. So if Im gone...she
can sell the weapon and the ammo for it, complete with data so the next
user wont have to reinvent the wheel.

One of the side benefits..is that I can arm my friends and neighbors
with a firearm and tuned ammo loaded for it in less than 3 minutes.
Simply a matter of grabbing something off the racks, opening the ammo
vaults, checking caliber and then serial number and grabbing the
approriately marked boxes and heading out.

Put out a call to your friends, whoever...for once fired cartridge
cases. Military, commercial, whatever. Thats raw materials and the one
thing that lasts and lasts if you take care of it properly.

Unknown firings...are only slightly more risky..you will have a few
crack on the neck..simply toss em into a scrap bucket for recycling or
even turning into other smaller cartridges. 3006 makes good .308s..etc
Ive got one box of 50 .45 ACPs..that started off as 100, WW 44 (3006)
cases and were shot up, changed to 308s, shot up, turned into something
else, and ultimately turned into .45s. Simply to see if it could be done
and for how long I could keep em going. I first reloaded them..in 1976.
Im getting some use out of them....G


Btw...ALWAYS check foreign cases with a flashlight...if you dont see a
flash hole in the bottom of the case...toss it into a seperate bucket.
Berdan primed cases can be reloaded..but frankly..its a pain in the ass,
best reserved for sometime in the far far future. Berdan cases dont
have the flash hole in the middle of the bottom of the case (web) but
multiple ones around the center. Usually 2, sometimes 3. And they take a
different primer that is NOT common in the US. So save em if you
want..even the steel ones..but seperate them. This is one of the
reasons few reload Russian/German/Chinese 7.62x39 rounds for the SKS and
AK.

Shrug..I need to be going..off to LA..got a call a few minutes ago..need
to make a service call in Huntington Beach in the morning.

Later

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:17:07 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on
or about Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:34:07 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Looks like I need to get in the hand load bidness. I ordered 250 rounds
today with four different made in USA brands. I'll sight the gun in and see
what it likes.

Karl


Ah...thats not how it works if you are planning on handloading.

You load 5 of a given bullet, primer and powder weight. Load the
lightest load in the manual.

Load 5 more, using .5gr more powder

Load 5 more, using an additonal .5gr more powder

etc etc until you reach maxium recommended powder


Then go to the range and carefuly shoot the first 5, measure group

then shoot the 2nd 5, measure group

then shoot the 3rd 5..measure group

Continue until you have fired all your loads and then use the best
loading you found

Give the rifle a minute between shots, 5 minutes between groups of 5

This allows any over heating of barrel and action to be minimized and
you will have far far less flyers.

Question from the newbie in the back. What kind of impact would
doing this in winter over summer have? I mean, a rifle straight out
of the travel case in the back of a pickup is going to be a bit cooler
than one that rode inside the cab with you. And in winter it can get
a bit chilly in back - is that going to make much of a difference?
(Of course, the way I shoot - it probably wouldn't.)

exeunt (furiously scribbling notes.)

Cases fired in the winter will exhibit less pressure..(shoot slower)
than ones fired in mid summer in the Mojave.

Most of the time, for most people..the difference isnt very much. But
if you are handloading a tight rifle at the top end of the
velociety/pressure ranges...it can be an issue.

Here where I live..its not unusual for it to be 120F in mid summer..so a
hot loaded cartridge should be loaded down below Maximum ..else it could
spike over, resulting in hard extraction, torn rims, and wildly erratic
bullet paths. Ive had weapons sitting on the bench in the sun, melt the
lenses out of a pair of safety glasses laid on top of them..and the
weapon hadnt been fired yet.

Some powders are worse than others, and I usually use the most mellow,
even tempered powders available G because of this.

With damned few exceptions..I never load my cartridges to the Warm or
Hot end of the scale. There really isnt any need to milk an extra 50-150
fps out of a cartridge. You simply hold over another inch..shrug. And
you will likely find your accuracy loads to be mid range in
velocity..usually..most of the time. Nearly always. G

As for powders..Accurate Arms is probably one of the best deals on the
market. They both make their own, and purchase powders in bulk..many
many thousands of pounds and will run 25% or more below the Big Name
brands. This is significant when reloading rifle cases that may use a
fair amount of powder. You get more loads for the same money. And its
good powder. But you will have to do a little reseach before ordering a
keg of it. Finding a single powder that does most of your rifle
cartridges is a very good thing and saves on supply issues. Same with
pistol powder (and its alternate use for shotguns).

Ive got..hummmm..probably xx types of powder in the magazine..but my
main powders only number about 4 that I use most of the time. Of course
I try other stuff..I do ballistics research as a hobby..but..shrug..when
it gets down to it...one really only needs no more than2-4 differnt
powders and if you are loading handguns..only one powder and for most
..30 cals..only one powder.

so buying a couple 8lb kegs is very doable and will do most of your
reloading just fine. And my pistol powders work quite well in rifles,
when Im shooting cast bullets. Which should NOT be frowned on ...hittin
a target with a bullet that is all "soft point" has its uses. Indeed.

Gunner





pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:44:05 -0800, Bob wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:17:07 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on
or about Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:34:07 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Looks like I need to get in the hand load bidness. I ordered 250 rounds
today with four different made in USA brands. I'll sight the gun in and see
what it likes.

Karl


Ah...thats not how it works if you are planning on handloading.

You load 5 of a given bullet, primer and powder weight. Load the
lightest load in the manual.

Load 5 more, using .5gr more powder

Load 5 more, using an additonal .5gr more powder

etc etc until you reach maxium recommended powder


Then go to the range and carefuly shoot the first 5, measure group

then shoot the 2nd 5, measure group

then shoot the 3rd 5..measure group

Continue until you have fired all your loads and then use the best
loading you found

Give the rifle a minute between shots, 5 minutes between groups of 5

This allows any over heating of barrel and action to be minimized and
you will have far far less flyers.

Question from the newbie in the back. What kind of impact would
doing this in winter over summer have? I mean, a rifle straight out
of the travel case in the back of a pickup is going to be a bit cooler
than one that rode inside the cab with you. And in winter it can get
a bit chilly in back - is that going to make much of a difference?
(Of course, the way I shoot - it probably wouldn't.)

exeunt (furiously scribbling notes.)


pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

After working up your load, clean the piece and put it away the same
way you plan to use it. Next day, take it out cold and fire one shot
at an appropriate target. Adjust sights to (theoretically )put the
bullet in the aiming point. Take as many days as youneed until you
are comfortable with a first shot from a cold barrel. THAT'S the
money shot!

Bob

One thing I should mention...shrug...what I do...is seldom do I clean
the bore on rifles I use a lot..or may need in a hurry.

While I may lube the action and surface...I seldom clean the bore. This
makes my first round impact in the same place I set the sights for, even
a year ago or more.

Now if its one of the other non action arms...they get cleaned, lubed
and stored, but with the action arms...I dont have the time or ability
to fire a couple cleaning shots and then take a shot that is supposed to
go where its aimed.

Some arms may shoot dead nuts with a clean bore..but most of them will
shoot significantly differently the first couple shots until the bore
gets fouled properly. This isnt quite so important out to 200-300
yrds..but farther out...it does indeed make a difference. And since the
rifles I generally do this with are ahummm...sharpshooters...and as I
live in the desert..with the horizon in 1 direction..32 miles..the other
120 miles away....shrug

And yes..the first shot is often the money shot. Very good suggestion.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
...and as I
live in the desert..with the horizon in 1 direction..32 miles..the other
120 miles away....shrug

Wow!
You're 8,000 feet tall?

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:44:05 -0800, Bob wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:17:07 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on
or about Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:34:07 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Looks like I need to get in the hand load bidness. I ordered 250 rounds
today with four different made in USA brands. I'll sight the gun in and
see
what it likes.

Karl


Ah...thats not how it works if you are planning on handloading.

You load 5 of a given bullet, primer and powder weight. Load the
lightest load in the manual.

Load 5 more, using .5gr more powder

Load 5 more, using an additonal .5gr more powder

etc etc until you reach maxium recommended powder


Then go to the range and carefuly shoot the first 5, measure group

then shoot the 2nd 5, measure group

then shoot the 3rd 5..measure group

Continue until you have fired all your loads and then use the best
loading you found

Give the rifle a minute between shots, 5 minutes between groups of 5

This allows any over heating of barrel and action to be minimized and
you will have far far less flyers.

Question from the newbie in the back. What kind of impact would
doing this in winter over summer have? I mean, a rifle straight out
of the travel case in the back of a pickup is going to be a bit cooler
than one that rode inside the cab with you. And in winter it can get
a bit chilly in back - is that going to make much of a difference?
(Of course, the way I shoot - it probably wouldn't.)

exeunt (furiously scribbling notes.)


pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

After working up your load, clean the piece and put it away the same
way you plan to use it. Next day, take it out cold and fire one shot
at an appropriate target. Adjust sights to (theoretically )put the
bullet in the aiming point. Take as many days as youneed until you
are comfortable with a first shot from a cold barrel. THAT'S the
money shot!

Bob

One thing I should mention...shrug...what I do...is seldom do I clean
the bore on rifles I use a lot..or may need in a hurry.

While I may lube the action and surface...I seldom clean the bore. This
makes my first round impact in the same place I set the sights for, even
a year ago or more.

Now if its one of the other non action arms...they get cleaned, lubed
and stored, but with the action arms...I dont have the time or ability
to fire a couple cleaning shots and then take a shot that is supposed to
go where its aimed.

Some arms may shoot dead nuts with a clean bore..but most of them will
shoot significantly differently the first couple shots until the bore
gets fouled properly. This isnt quite so important out to 200-300
yrds..but farther out...it does indeed make a difference. And since the
rifles I generally do this with are ahummm...sharpshooters...and as I
live in the desert..with the horizon in 1 direction..32 miles..the other
120 miles away....shrug

And yes..the first shot is often the money shot. Very good suggestion.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

There's a good article in the latest "American Rifleman" about NOT cleaning
bores. Have you ever seen or used lapping bullets?

Buerste wrote:


There's a good article in the latest "American Rifleman" about NOT cleaning
bores. Have you ever seen or used lapping bullets?



I have used both lapping bullets and the older lapping compound you
apply yourself but only in bores that needed help. If you shoot a couple
rounds and the barrel gets fouled with copper/lead then lapping will
help. The ones who push the break-in, clean every round and lap the
$5,000.00 barrel they have, are the B/R crowd.

I have never found a rifle that shot better with a clean bore. BUT there
may be one out there. Then it comes down to how you store your guns. I
shoot mine then run a quick patch or two down it just to knock the heavy
crud out. Then some oil and into the rack. The only ones that get a full
cleaning are the BP and corrosive ammo ones.


I look more at functioning. I like a rifle that can drop every round
into a 1-2" circle at 150-200 yards. But it better go BANG every time I
pull the trigger. If not it goes down the road.

--
Steve W.

Buerste wrote:


But that Wolf is filthy. And, I still don't like steel cases.



It is, BUT, it still beats throwing the bullets by hand!!!

I will say that my Mini likes the Wolf I have played with.


--
Steve W.

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:44:05 -0800, Bob
wrote:
snip
After working up your load, clean the piece and put it away the same
way you plan to use it. Next day, take it out cold and fire one shot
at an appropriate target. Adjust sights to (theoretically )put the
bullet in the aiming point. Take as many days as youneed until you
are comfortable with a first shot from a cold barrel. THAT'S the
money shot!

Bob

One thing I should mention...shrug...what I do...is seldom do I clean
the bore on rifles I use a lot..or may need in a hurry.

While I may lube the action and surface...I seldom clean the bore.
This makes my first round impact in the same place I set the sights
for, even a year ago or more.

Now if its one of the other non action arms...they get cleaned, lubed
and stored, but with the action arms...I dont have the time or ability
to fire a couple cleaning shots and then take a shot that is supposed
to go where its aimed.

Some arms may shoot dead nuts with a clean bore..but most of them will
shoot significantly differently the first couple shots until the bore
gets fouled properly. This isnt quite so important out to 200-300
yrds..but farther out...it does indeed make a difference. And since
the rifles I generally do this with are ahummm...sharpshooters...and
as I live in the desert..with the horizon in 1 direction..32
miles..the other 120 miles away....shrug

And yes..the first shot is often the money shot. Very good suggestion.

This gets tricky. The problem is that powder fouling seizes up over time.
If you are shooting with a hot fouled barrel, it may not shoot to the same
point once the barrel has been left a few days & the fouling has hardened.
I usually clean my match rifles for storage immediately after the last
Spring league match, and they clean up pretty easy. A few years ago, I got
busy & had to let my 308 sit for a week or so. It was nearly impossible to
get my usual tight patch down the bore, and even after my standard cleaning
routine, I could feel a lot of drag on the patch. I finally had to haul
out JB Bore Paste (a mild abrasive cleaner) and give it a good scrubbing to
get all of the fossilized fouling out.

Bottom line: a fouled bore that has sat for a few days probably will not
shoot identically to what it was doing at the range when you last fired it
warm. The difference may not matter when you are talking accuracy of MOBG
(minute of bad guy), but it will be different.

I think the only way to make sure of pinpoint precision with the first shot
is to use Bob's procedure for making sure you've got your sights set for a
single shot out of a cold clean barrel. Then you are starting with a known
quantity.

I shoot 200 yard offhand (standing) matches, and I've never noticed a
difference between my first shots from a clean barrel & later ones that
couldn't easily be attributed to me. If I do my part, I can still keep my
shots inside the 10 ring (7" dia), clean or fouled. I still try hard not
to fire in a match starting with a clean barrel.

As best I can tell, firing from a fouled barrel that has sat for several
days is certainly no worse than firing from a cold clean barrel, _with my
rifle_. Every bore is different. My rifles all have Krieger stainless
barrels, which are lapped & don't foul very much.

Doug White

Let the Record show that "Buerste" on or about Wed,
11 Nov 2009 05:21:48 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:03:07 -0600, the infamous "Karl Townsend"
scrawled the following:

Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home in a
few days.

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a
foot
locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that ain't
the
case now.

I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus and
foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where and what
to
purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

Has the obama ammo scare passed yet?

Um, not in the slightest.
In other words should I wait a few
months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of trap shot
shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in competition. I find
reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

I'd recommend settling on a case of Wolf for now, then get more later,
when prices relax. If a revolution happened, you wouldn't want to be
caught without plenty of defensive ammo

But that Wolf is filthy. And, I still don't like steel cases.

Maybe so, probably so. So? Yes, life is too short to shoot
crappy ammo. But life is too precious to have no ammo because you are
waiting for "the good stuff".
I knew a General of Tanks, his attitude was that the 'better is
the enemy of the good'. In his command, he needed tanks - now. Good
ones. Not having the number of tanks he needed now, because better
ones would be available in a couple years, meant he could not do his
job, now. Same goes for ammo. Better a load out of crappy ammo, even
steel cased Wolf, beats not having any.

Not picking on you. There is a lot of stuff I'd rather have, but
can't afford, so I make do, or do without. I'd like a rifle like my
friends: tack driver at 200 yards plus (that I know). Cheap at only
three grand (his replacement would be six grand). Some other time,
when my rich uncle gets out of the poor house.

The other option, keep an eye out. Carry cash, so when you ask
"How much?" it means "How much do I count out?" not "How much do I
need to go get?" I suspect the days of "cheap" ammo are gone for
quite a while. What I fear is these being looked back on as "the good
old days, when ammo was cheap." I should also add in, that part of
the "cheap" ammo cost, is a lack of social disruption. I'd rather
ammo be "expensive" because it costs a lot of cash, than have ammo
become "expensive" because there are no stores or commerce. Or to
become "cheap" because of civil unrest.

tschus
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:55:52 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:



As for powder and components..I believe Id wait a few months if you
think you can do so. Shrug....$0.045 cents a primer isnt a lot..but it
adds up in a hurry

Primers aren't that bad here. Recently $27.99 at Scheel's in St.
Cloud. Karl, that's a good place to get reloading supplies.

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:03:07 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home in a
few days.

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a foot
locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that ain't the
case now.

I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus and
foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where and what to
purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

Has the obama ammo scare passed yet? In other words should I wait a few
months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of trap shot
shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in competition. I find
reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

Karl

Handloading shotshells is not cost effective any more but it can
provide significant savings with rifle and handgun ammo if you shoot
enough to amortize the cost of reloading equipment. I think 1000
rounds would be way plenty enough.

The shortage of ammo and components does seem to be easing. Some
prices are significantly higher than they were a year ago. I doubt
that they'll be going down any time soon if ever.

You can get once-fired brass on line for considerably less than new
brass, and brass is the major first cost of rifle ammo. Once you have
it, it can usually be re-used several to many times.

A handload your rifle really likes is almost certain to shoot better
than any factory ammo.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:55:52 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:



As for powder and components..I believe Id wait a few months if you
think you can do so. Shrug....$0.045 cents a primer isnt a lot..but it
adds up in a hurry

Primers aren't that bad here. Recently $27.99 at Scheel's in St.
Cloud. Karl, that's a good place to get reloading supplies.

Great, one of my favorite spots to wait for my better half while she shops.

Say, what model and brand reloader do you recommend? Same as gunner?

Karl

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
Let the Record show that "Buerste" on or about Wed,
11 Nov 2009 05:21:48 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:03:07 -0600, the infamous "Karl Townsend"
scrawled the following:

Christmas came early this year. A DPMS Panther LR-308 is coming home in
a
few days.

THEN, I looked at buying ammo. Holy ****, prices have went up. I got a
foot
locker full of .223 several years back for a song. I can see that ain't
the
case now.

I want to start with 1000 rounds and Wolf or other off shore surplus and
foreign manufacture don't interest me. Any suggestions on where and what
to
purchase? This would be for long range target practice.

Has the obama ammo scare passed yet?

Um, not in the slightest.
In other words should I wait a few
months? Can I save a bunch reloading? FWIW, I reloaded a lot of trap
shot
shells when I went through 250 a week shooting in competition. I find
reloading to not be a pleasurable pastime.

I'd recommend settling on a case of Wolf for now, then get more later,
when prices relax. If a revolution happened, you wouldn't want to be
caught without plenty of defensive ammo

But that Wolf is filthy. And, I still don't like steel cases.

Maybe so, probably so. So? Yes, life is too short to shoot
crappy ammo. But life is too precious to have no ammo because you are
waiting for "the good stuff".
I knew a General of Tanks, his attitude was that the 'better is
the enemy of the good'. In his command, he needed tanks - now. Good
ones. Not having the number of tanks he needed now, because better
ones would be available in a couple years, meant he could not do his
job, now. Same goes for ammo. Better a load out of crappy ammo, even
steel cased Wolf, beats not having any.

Not picking on you. There is a lot of stuff I'd rather have, but
can't afford, so I make do, or do without. I'd like a rifle like my
friends: tack driver at 200 yards plus (that I know). Cheap at only
three grand (his replacement would be six grand). Some other time,
when my rich uncle gets out of the poor house.

The other option, keep an eye out. Carry cash, so when you ask
"How much?" it means "How much do I count out?" not "How much do I
need to go get?" I suspect the days of "cheap" ammo are gone for
quite a while. What I fear is these being looked back on as "the good
old days, when ammo was cheap." I should also add in, that part of
the "cheap" ammo cost, is a lack of social disruption. I'd rather
ammo be "expensive" because it costs a lot of cash, than have ammo
become "expensive" because there are no stores or commerce. Or to
become "cheap" because of civil unrest.

tschus
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Actually, I shoot a bunch Wolf. It works fine in every weapon I've used it
in. It's nice to leave the cases on the ground even though they ARE
reloadable. Sometimes the primers are crimped, sometimes not. I did have a
weird event with 200 rounds of .223 Wolf that I had in a sealed .50 cal ammo
box. A few months in the box and the rounds turned into a rusty block. I
had two 20 rd. mags in the box too and they were rusted to hell. It looked
as though acid had been poured in the box. I figure the ammo somehow
outgassed something very corrosive.

On Nov 12, 3:56*pm, "Buerste" wrote:
....A few months in the box and the rounds turned into a rusty block. *I
had two 20 rd. mags in the box too and they were rusted to hell. *It looked
as though acid had been poured in the box. *I figure the ammo somehow
outgassed something very corrosive.

Decomposing powder releases nitrogen oxides, effectively nitric acid.
Did it smell like bleach?

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:07:08 -0800, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 12, 3:56*pm, "Buerste" wrote:
....A few months in the box and the rounds turned into a rusty block.
*I had two 20 rd. mags in the box too and they were rusted to hell.
*It looked as though acid had been poured in the box. *I figure the
ammo somehow outgassed something very corrosive.

Decomposing powder releases nitrogen oxides, effectively nitric acid. Did
it smell like bleach?

How does nitric acid (HNO3) smell like chlorine?

Thanks,
Rich

Jim Wilkins wrote in
:

On Nov 12, 3:56*pm, "Buerste" wrote:
....A few months in the box and the rounds turned into a rusty block.
*
I had two 20 rd. mags in the box too and they were rusted to hell. *It
looked
as though acid had been poured in the box. *I figure the ammo somehow
outgassed something very corrosive.

Decomposing powder releases nitrogen oxides, effectively nitric acid.
Did it smell like bleach?

I can't vouch for the smell, but my father had a glass jar of 1950's
surplus powder that decomposed sometime in the late 60's or early 70's.
The fumes ate right through the steel cap on the jar. Fortunately, the
powder was stored separate from the guns, but there were a number of
boxes of ammo in the same cabinet. The cardboard boxes all became very
brittle, and a lot of the brass had green surface corrosion on it.

The casualties included 100 rounds of 44 magnum reloads. They weren't
pitted, they just looked a bit scuzzy. I volunteered to dispose of them
& spent several fun afternoons shooting them up. My dad had a very
early S&W 44 magnum revolver, and I found out first hand that the ejector
would unscrew slowly from repeated recoil & lock the pistol up. Once I
figured out what was wrong, it was easy to fix, but it had me going for a
bit. At some point I think S&W changed the direction of the threads to
eliminate that problem.

Doug White

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Buerste wrote:


There's a good article in the latest "American Rifleman" about NOT
cleaning
bores. Have you ever seen or used lapping bullets?



I have used both lapping bullets and the older lapping compound you
apply yourself but only in bores that needed help. If you shoot a couple
rounds and the barrel gets fouled with copper/lead then lapping will
help. The ones who push the break-in, clean every round and lap the
$5,000.00 barrel they have, are the B/R crowd.

I have never found a rifle that shot better with a clean bore. BUT there
may be one out there. Then it comes down to how you store your guns. I
shoot mine then run a quick patch or two down it just to knock the heavy
crud out. Then some oil and into the rack. The only ones that get a full
cleaning are the BP and corrosive ammo ones.


I look more at functioning. I like a rifle that can drop every round
into a 1-2" circle at 150-200 yards. But it better go BANG every time I
pull the trigger. If not it goes down the road.

--
Steve W.

$5,000 barrel? Holy Crap! How do you turn $5.00 worth of steel into $5k?
I'm in the wrong business!

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:21:37 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote in
:

On Nov 12, 3:56*pm, "Buerste" wrote:
....A few months in the box and the rounds turned into a rusty block.

*I figure the ammo somehow outgassed something very corrosive.


Decomposing powder releases nitrogen oxides, effectively nitric acid.


I can't vouch for the smell, but my father had a glass jar of 1950's
surplus powder that decomposed sometime in the late 60's or early 70's.
The fumes ate right through the steel cap on the jar.

I had an old one pound can of Bullseye that I bought at an auction. A
red dust would come out along with the powder when I poured it out of
the can into the powder measure. The rounds loaded with it fired
fine. I forget what it smelled like. Not particularly unpleasant
iirc.

RWL

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Nov 12, 3:56 pm, "Buerste" wrote:
....A few months in the box and the rounds turned into a rusty block. I
had two 20 rd. mags in the box too and they were rusted to hell. It looked
as though acid had been poured in the box. I figure the ammo somehow
outgassed something very corrosive.

Decomposing powder releases nitrogen oxides, effectively nitric acid.
Did it smell like bleach?
***************

One would think the shells would be sealed. Your explanation makes good
sense and I've never stored ammo in a sealed container since.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:06:24 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:55:52 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:



As for powder and components..I believe Id wait a few months if you
think you can do so. Shrug....$0.045 cents a primer isnt a lot..but it
adds up in a hurry

Primers aren't that bad here. Recently $27.99 at Scheel's in St.
Cloud. Karl, that's a good place to get reloading supplies.

Great, one of my favorite spots to wait for my better half while she
shops.

Say, what model and brand reloader do you recommend? Same as gunner?

Karl

Since you don't enjoy the task or activity of reloading, I endorse
Gunner's recommendation. That's the press Fitch chose and uses. I use
a Dillon Square Deal for production of handgun ammo because I found a
used one at a very reasonable price. I use an RCBS Rockchucker for
rifle ammo because I'm willing to craft my rounds one at a time and I
want to weigh every powder charge to 0.1 grain precision. Most rifle
powders are extruded so volumetric dispensing varies more than that.
Factory ammo varies considerably more than that. Such variance doesn't
matter for minute of deer accuracy.

The Dillon 650 progressive press would be much more efficient than a
single-stage press like the Rockchucker for producing ammo in
thousand round volume. Dillon's "no bull****" warranty really is
that. They're amazing. When you call Dillon, a real person answers
the phone.


And, the Dillon 650 with a Perfect Bullet feeder and factory shell feeder
can easily be modified with a gearmotor or such to crank out ammo while you
go watch TV! But, it would be a couple grand investment.

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:00:26 +1100, "Jeff R." wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
...and as I
live in the desert..with the horizon in 1 direction..32 miles..the other
120 miles away....shrug

Wow!
You're 8,000 feet tall?


No..but the tops of the mountains 120 miles away are over 8000 feet.

They are called the Sierras.

Ever heard of them?

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:15:14 -0500, "Buerste"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:44:05 -0800, Bob wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:17:07 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the Record show that Gunner Asch on
or about Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:34:07 -0800 did write/type or cause to
appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Looks like I need to get in the hand load bidness. I ordered 250 rounds
today with four different made in USA brands. I'll sight the gun in and
see
what it likes.

Karl


Ah...thats not how it works if you are planning on handloading.

You load 5 of a given bullet, primer and powder weight. Load the
lightest load in the manual.

Load 5 more, using .5gr more powder

Load 5 more, using an additonal .5gr more powder

etc etc until you reach maxium recommended powder


Then go to the range and carefuly shoot the first 5, measure group

then shoot the 2nd 5, measure group

then shoot the 3rd 5..measure group

Continue until you have fired all your loads and then use the best
loading you found

Give the rifle a minute between shots, 5 minutes between groups of 5

This allows any over heating of barrel and action to be minimized and
you will have far far less flyers.

Question from the newbie in the back. What kind of impact would
doing this in winter over summer have? I mean, a rifle straight out
of the travel case in the back of a pickup is going to be a bit cooler
than one that rode inside the cab with you. And in winter it can get
a bit chilly in back - is that going to make much of a difference?
(Of course, the way I shoot - it probably wouldn't.)

exeunt (furiously scribbling notes.)


pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

After working up your load, clean the piece and put it away the same
way you plan to use it. Next day, take it out cold and fire one shot
at an appropriate target. Adjust sights to (theoretically )put the
bullet in the aiming point. Take as many days as youneed until you
are comfortable with a first shot from a cold barrel. THAT'S the
money shot!

Bob

One thing I should mention...shrug...what I do...is seldom do I clean
the bore on rifles I use a lot..or may need in a hurry.

While I may lube the action and surface...I seldom clean the bore. This
makes my first round impact in the same place I set the sights for, even
a year ago or more.

Now if its one of the other non action arms...they get cleaned, lubed
and stored, but with the action arms...I dont have the time or ability
to fire a couple cleaning shots and then take a shot that is supposed to
go where its aimed.

Some arms may shoot dead nuts with a clean bore..but most of them will
shoot significantly differently the first couple shots until the bore
gets fouled properly. This isnt quite so important out to 200-300
yrds..but farther out...it does indeed make a difference. And since the
rifles I generally do this with are ahummm...sharpshooters...and as I
live in the desert..with the horizon in 1 direction..32 miles..the other
120 miles away....shrug

And yes..the first shot is often the money shot. Very good suggestion.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

There's a good article in the latest "American Rifleman" about NOT cleaning
bores. Have you ever seen or used lapping bullets?


Ive not read the Rifleman in ages. Ill hunt for it.

Ive used a few here and there over the years, generally on small bore,
high velocity arms such as the 22-250 and such, but never really needed
them with my barrels..so far, but they can be marvelous if the barrel
is of good quality and properly installed.

One can make up lapping bullets by simply coating a standard bullet with
xtra fine valve grinding compound and firing 1..or two at most, then
cleaning and looking through it with a good light. Ah..someday for a
decent bore scope.




Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:51:17 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:55:52 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:



As for powder and components..I believe Id wait a few months if you
think you can do so. Shrug....$0.045 cents a primer isnt a lot..but it
adds up in a hurry

Primers aren't that bad here. Recently $27.99 at Scheel's in St.
Cloud. Karl, that's a good place to get reloading supplies.


Here in California..at 3 gun stores Ive visited in the last 6
months...the cheap ones were $45/k..all the way up to $67/k

Last summer, I stocked up on Federals for $12/k

Im glad I bought 12k primers. Just to add to existing stocks.

Shrug


Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:52:00 -0500, the infamous "Buerste"
scrawled the following:

$5,000 barrel? Holy Crap! How do you turn $5.00 worth of steel into $5k?
I'm in the wrong business!

Talk to Ronnie Barrett.

--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

Does nitric acid smell like bleach? Been a LONG time since
I smelled nitric acid.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

Decomposing powder releases nitrogen oxides, effectively
nitric acid.
Did it smell like bleach?

Kinda, sorta, in the way that iodine smells like bleach.

--
-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Does nitric acid smell like bleach? Been a LONG time since
I smelled nitric acid.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

Decomposing powder releases nitrogen oxides, effectively
nitric acid.
Did it smell like bleach?