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Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote: So, painting the weights wasn't cost effective? How would painting the weights prevent them from being ground up and dissolved into the water table? That, apparently, is what happens and is why the EU, Korea, Japan and others have banned them. Ground up? Recycled yes. Smelters and flaking lead paint seems like a major source. http://www.urisa.org/Journal/protect...th%20pages.pdf "Estimates show that 500,000 pounds of lead is released into California's environment annually from wheel weights that fall off of vehicles. Lead from wheel weights can also be tracked into people's homes, especially those who live near busy streets. Wheel weights can be made of other materials (for example, steel and zinc), and lead has been banned in wheel weights in the European Union since 2005." http://cehca.nonprofitsoapbox.com/st...settlement.pdf I wonder how long it will take for RoHS type laws to outlaw bullets? Were #500,000 of lead to end up in the water supply here the same way wheel weights do, the problem won't be bullets affecting the drinking water. California is an important agricultural resource for the US, Wes. We export billions of dollars of food every year so water quality is important to us. -- John R. Carroll |
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"John R. Carroll" wrote:
"Estimates show that 500,000 pounds of lead is released into California's environment annually from wheel weights that fall off of vehicles. Lead from wheel weights can also be tracked into people's homes, especially those who live near busy streets. Wheel weights can be made of other materials (for example, steel and zinc), and lead has been banned in wheel weights in the European Union since 2005." Something seems wrong with that number. A 3 oz weight is huge and 1 oz seems to be normal in my experience. So for a given vehicle there could be 4 to 12 oz of weight. The population is 36 million. Total number of cars, trucks, semis 243M for the US Say 24.3M based on percentage of population and for that figure to be true, then all the wheelweights on 2.7 to 8.2% of california vehicles fall off each year. Seems a bit fancifull to me. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
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Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote: "Estimates show that 500,000 pounds of lead is released into California's environment annually from wheel weights that fall off of vehicles. Lead from wheel weights can also be tracked into people's homes, especially those who live near busy streets. Wheel weights can be made of other materials (for example, steel and zinc), and lead has been banned in wheel weights in the European Union since 2005." Something seems wrong with that number. A 3 oz weight is huge and 1 oz seems to be normal in my experience. So for a given vehicle there could be 4 to 12 oz of weight. The population is 36 million. Total number of cars, trucks, semis 243M for the US Say 24.3M based on percentage of population and for that figure to be true, then all the wheelweights on 2.7 to 8.2% of california vehicles fall off each year. Seems a bit fancifull to me. Wes Is that allowed? Hey! Are we allowed to do that anymore? Thinking! Shame on you, Wes! |
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On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:31:25 -0500, Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote: "Estimates show that 500,000 pounds of lead is released into California's environment annually from wheel weights that fall off of vehicles. Lead from wheel weights can also be tracked into people's homes, especially those who live near busy streets. Wheel weights can be made of other materials (for example, steel and zinc), and lead has been banned in wheel weights in the European Union since 2005." Something seems wrong with that number. A 3 oz weight is huge and 1 oz seems to be normal in my experience. So for a given vehicle there could be 4 to 12 oz of weight. The population is 36 million. Total number of cars, trucks, semis 243M for the US Say 24.3M based on percentage of population and for that figure to be true, then all the wheelweights on 2.7 to 8.2% of california vehicles fall off each year. Seems a bit fancifull to me. Wes Another question - does the fact that a wheel weight falls off mean that it somehow immediately enters the food/water chain? My own experience is that wheel weights seldom (in my case never) fall off. How many have encountered a sudden imbalance of a wheel and discovered the wheel weights gone? Regards, J.B. |
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cavelamb wrote:
Wes wrote: "John R. Carroll" wrote: "Estimates show that 500,000 pounds of lead is released into California's environment annually from wheel weights that fall off of vehicles. Lead from wheel weights can also be tracked into people's homes, especially those who live near busy streets. Wheel weights can be made of other materials (for example, steel and zinc), and lead has been banned in wheel weights in the European Union since 2005." Something seems wrong with that number. A 3 oz weight is huge and 1 oz seems to be normal in my experience. OK, but Chrysler says the average is 2 Oz. So for a given vehicle there could be 4 to 12 oz of weight. The population is 36 million. Total number of cars, trucks, semis 243M for the US Say 24.3M based on percentage of population and for that figure to be true, then all the wheelweights on 2.7 to 8.2% of california vehicles fall off each year. Seems a bit fancifull to me. Wes Is that allowed? Hey! Are we allowed to do that anymore? Thinking! Shame on you, Wes! There are nearly 50 million passenger vehicles registered in California counting PNO's. He could just have read the study linked to in my post. Perhaps he even did. (50,000,000 X 4 X 2)/16=25,000,000 pounds of wheel weights on the road at any one time. 500,000/25,000,000= .02 or 2 percent. Yeah, I'd say that one in 50 wheels here loses it's weights. Hell, two percent of the vehicles in California are probably STOLEN every year. LOL -- John R. Carroll |
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Wes wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote: "Estimates show that 500,000 pounds of lead is released into California's environment annually from wheel weights that fall off of vehicles. Lead from wheel weights can also be tracked into people's homes, especially those who live near busy streets. Wheel weights can be made of other materials (for example, steel and zinc), and lead has been banned in wheel weights in the European Union since 2005." Something seems wrong with that number. Ok. Take that up with Chrysler. Total number of cars, trucks, semis 243M for the US Say 24.3M based on percentage of population and for that figure to be true, then all the wheelweights on 2.7 to 8.2% of california vehicles fall off each year. Seems a bit fancifull to me. Fanciful is rebuilding a lathe you could have just bought for 20 grand and it would have been a CNC. -- John R. Carroll |
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"John R. Carroll" wrote:
Seems a bit fancifull to me. Fanciful is rebuilding a lathe you could have just bought for 20 grand and it would have been a CNC. ? You have me mixed up with someone else? Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
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I just hate it when I take my boots off, and find a half
dozen wheel weights. So, where is all the lead before it's mined, and smelted, and molded into wheel weights? Not in the environment, I hope? -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "John R. Carroll" wrote in message ... "Estimates show that 500,000 pounds of lead is released into California's environment annually from wheel weights that fall off of vehicles. Lead from wheel weights can also be tracked into people's homes, especially those who live near busy streets. Wheel weights can be made of other materials (for example, steel and zinc), and lead has been banned in wheel weights in the European Union since 2005." |
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Might happen in bad neighborhoods? Wheel weight theft, along
with copper and air conditioning units? Which can be reduced, by proper application of .45 ACP ammo, to get back to the thread. If you can find ACP at the store, of course. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Eregon" wrote in message ... wrote in news:io6lj5tn3visf8umepkb1fbj28s1lpvlld@ 4ax.com: How many have encountered a sudden imbalance of a wheel and discovered the wheel weights gone? None that I've ever heard of in Texas but, in the Peoples' Republik of Kaliphornea (where the Highway Dept. INSTALLS potholes), anything may be possible... |
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Stormin Mormon wrote:
I just hate it when I take my boots off, and find a half dozen wheel weights. So, where is all the lead before it's mined, and smelted, and molded into wheel weights? Not in the environment, I hope? Right next to all of the Uranium that isn't in the environment either. LOL -- John R. Carroll |
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
I just hate it when I take my boots off, and find a half dozen wheel weights. The reason I take a critical view on the claim of 500,000 lbs a year is I used to ride bicycles alot. For income as a kid delivering papers and in cross state tours as a bicyclist. I'll stop to pick up a wheel weight since I'm a bullet caster. Much like a serious fly fisherman that ties his or hers own flies will stop to harvest road kill. I've found more tools and cash than wheel weights. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
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I knew a guy who used to find all kinds of things. He walked
and biked most of his life, and always happy to stop and pick up stuff. I remember the one time we were driving down the road about 35 MPH, and he hollered at me to stop. I did, he jumped out and ran back. Came back into the car with a pair of needle nose pliers that were in the road. The one time I took my van to the repair shop, and then hoofed home. I found a bunch of wire nuts, which was better than nothing. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Wes" wrote in message ... "Stormin Mormon" wrote: I just hate it when I take my boots off, and find a half dozen wheel weights. The reason I take a critical view on the claim of 500,000 lbs a year is I used to ride bicycles alot. For income as a kid delivering papers and in cross state tours as a bicyclist. I'll stop to pick up a wheel weight since I'm a bullet caster. Much like a serious fly fisherman that ties his or hers own flies will stop to harvest road kill. I've found more tools and cash than wheel weights. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
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"Wes" wrote in message ... "Stormin Mormon" wrote: I just hate it when I take my boots off, and find a half dozen wheel weights. The reason I take a critical view on the claim of 500,000 lbs a year is I used to ride bicycles alot. For income as a kid delivering papers and in cross state tours as a bicyclist. I'll stop to pick up a wheel weight since I'm a bullet caster. Much like a serious fly fisherman that ties his or hers own flies will stop to harvest road kill. I've found more tools and cash than wheel weights. Wes Try walking down the shoulder of a road with a metal detector. That's how a friend of mine used to gather his wheel weights for casting sinkers. Most of them are covered up after a heavy rain. -- Ed Huntress |
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
The one time I took my van to the repair shop, and then hoofed home. I found a bunch of wire nuts, which was better than nothing Found a 1/4" breaker bar a couple months ago. That was from my car. Almost hit a pipe vise once with my truck. Must have fell off a welding truck step bumper. Picked it up, stuck it in my truck box and gave it to my brother in law who worked where I was working at the time. That is my best score. Well my brother in laws score ;) WEs -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
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On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:42:59 -0600, RBnDFW
wrote: wrote: On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:31:25 -0500, Wes wrote: "John R. Carroll" wrote: "Estimates show that 500,000 pounds of lead is released into California's environment annually from wheel weights that fall off of vehicles. Lead from wheel weights can also be tracked into people's homes, especially those who live near busy streets. Wheel weights can be made of other materials (for example, steel and zinc), and lead has been banned in wheel weights in the European Union since 2005." Something seems wrong with that number. A 3 oz weight is huge and 1 oz seems to be normal in my experience. So for a given vehicle there could be 4 to 12 oz of weight. The population is 36 million. Total number of cars, trucks, semis 243M for the US Say 24.3M based on percentage of population and for that figure to be true, then all the wheelweights on 2.7 to 8.2% of california vehicles fall off each year. Seems a bit fancifull to me. Wes Another question - does the fact that a wheel weight falls off mean that it somehow immediately enters the food/water chain? My own experience is that wheel weights seldom (in my case never) fall off. How many have encountered a sudden imbalance of a wheel and discovered the wheel weights gone? I suggest you try walking down the shoulder of a busy highway for a 100 yards or so. I bet you will easily find several lead wheel weights Do you drive? How often do the wheel weights fall off your auto? To the best of my knowledge I have never had a wheel weight fall off. At least I never had the experience of a wheel suddenly start shaking and the guy at the balancing place say, "Gee Mister, your balancing weights have come off." Regards, J.B. |
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On Dec 30, 12:55*am, "John R. Carroll"
Yeah, I'd say that one in 50 wheels here loses it's weights. -- John R. Carroll One in 50 wheels would mean that one car in about 12 loses a wheel weight annually. That seems pretty high to me. My estimate would be more like one car in thirty or less loses a wheel weight in the three or four years that a tire lasts. So my estimate is at least an order of magnitude lower. Dan |
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wrote in message ... On Dec 30, 12:55 am, "John R. Carroll" Yeah, I'd say that one in 50 wheels here loses it's weights. -- John R. Carroll One in 50 wheels would mean that one car in about 12 loses a wheel weight annually. That seems pretty high to me. My estimate would be more like one car in thirty or less loses a wheel weight in the three or four years that a tire lasts. So my estimate is at least an order of magnitude lower. Dan EPA estimates that 1.6 mllion pounds of wheel weights are lost from wheels in the US annually. I think they're getting their data from several studies, including one report by the Ecology Center that summarizes several other studies: http://www.epa.gov/waste/hazard/wastemin/nlfwwi.htm http://www.leadfreewheels.org/LeadWheelWeightDocs.pdf -- Ed Huntress |
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On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:07:05 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: I knew a guy who used to find all kinds of things. He walked and biked most of his life, and always happy to stop and pick up stuff. I remember the one time we were driving down the road about 35 MPH, and he hollered at me to stop. I did, he jumped out and ran back. Came back into the car with a pair of needle nose pliers that were in the road. The one time I took my van to the repair shop, and then hoofed home. I found a bunch of wire nuts, which was better than nothing. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Wes" wrote in message ... "Stormin Mormon" wrote: I just hate it when I take my boots off, and find a half dozen wheel weights. The reason I take a critical view on the claim of 500,000 lbs a year is I used to ride bicycles alot. For income as a kid delivering papers and in cross state tours as a bicyclist. I'll stop to pick up a wheel weight since I'm a bullet caster. Much like a serious fly fisherman that ties his or hers own flies will stop to harvest road kill. I've found more tools and cash than wheel weights. Wes One Saturday morning shopping tour (yard saleing) on my way back to the car, something on the road caught my eye, so I scooped it into my pocket. Next stop, I took a look at the $20 bill folded over a $50 bill. Best bargain of the summer! Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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On Dec 31, 1:51*am, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
On what factual and researched basis would you make your claim? Were you also an indigent paperboy, traipsing across the uninhabited areas of America, collecting refuse for sale? Caltrans reports eight *ton miles of garbage per year on Interstate 5 between Los Angeles and CA-99 alone. That's 8X76X2000 = One Million Two Hundred Thousand Pounds of crap. Do your own homework. LOL -- John R. Carroll My estimates are based on the number of wheel weights that have come off cars that I have driven. That and if the number of wheel weights lost was as large a number as the government estimates, someone would have designed a better wheel weight. We could conduct an informal poll of RCM readers. How many of you have experienced a loss of a wheel weight in the last five years? And how many cars does this cover? I personally can not remember ever having a wheel weight lost from a car I have owned and operated. Granted it is not something that I would make a special effort to remember. Which is why I specified five years as the time frame to consider. I am reasonably confident that I have not lost any wheel weights from any of the cars I have owed during the last five years. The government sites with estimates on wheel weight loss did not provide how they made their estimates. I expect they did not do any analysis of the accuracy of their estimates, but did note that one of the sites revised their estimate from 5000 tons to 1600 tons. That is not something that makes me believe that a lot of effort was made to obtain an accurate estimate. In short, I have more faith in my estimate than in one made by the EPA. If the EPA provided how they arrived at their estimate, I might change my mind. Dan |
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On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:05:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Dec 31, 1:51*am, "John R. Carroll" wrote: On what factual and researched basis would you make your claim? Were you also an indigent paperboy, traipsing across the uninhabited areas of America, collecting refuse for sale? Caltrans reports eight *ton miles of garbage per year on Interstate 5 between Los Angeles and CA-99 alone. That's 8X76X2000 = One Million Two Hundred Thousand Pounds of crap. Do your own homework. LOL -- John R. Carroll My estimates are based on the number of wheel weights that have come off cars that I have driven. That and if the number of wheel weights lost was as large a number as the government estimates, someone would have designed a better wheel weight. We could conduct an informal poll of RCM readers. How many of you have experienced a loss of a wheel weight in the last five years? And how many cars does this cover? I personally can not remember ever having a wheel weight lost from a car I have owned and operated. Granted it is not something that I would make a special effort to remember. Which is why I specified five years as the time frame to consider. I am reasonably confident that I have not lost any wheel weights from any of the cars I have owed during the last five years. The government sites with estimates on wheel weight loss did not provide how they made their estimates. I expect they did not do any analysis of the accuracy of their estimates, but did note that one of the sites revised their estimate from 5000 tons to 1600 tons. That is not something that makes me believe that a lot of effort was made to obtain an accurate estimate. In short, I have more faith in my estimate than in one made by the EPA. If the EPA provided how they arrived at their estimate, I might change my mind. Dan I can remember losing (1) wheelweight in the aprox 8 million+ miles Ive driven in the past 35 yrs. And along with the wheel weight..I lost the entire front end of that red Rambler station wagon Id just bought..when I t-boned the Mustang in Gaylord Michigan in 1974. And I picked it up. Along with the piece of blown open COPPER brake line the seller had plumbed the car with. Gunner "I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin Franklin, /The Encouragement of Idleness/, 1766 |
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Gunner Asch wrote:
I can remember losing (1) wheelweight in the aprox 8 million+ miles Ive driven in the past 35 yrs. And along with the wheel weight..I lost the entire front end of that red Rambler station wagon Id just bought..when I t-boned the Mustang in Gaylord Michigan in 1974. After a trip to Makino for training, I lost the drivers side wheel when it departed from my 1991 Ranger 4x4. I'm sure it had a wheel weight. Never found tire, the balancing weights, or my Warns locking unit. If anyone needs one NIB locking unit (have to buy them as a pair) let me know. If you ever lose a wheel at 70 mph and find yourself driving on your brake rotor, wait until you come to a complete stop after shifting in to neutral. Touching the brake pedal even at low speed puts one hell of a flat on your rotor. YKHIKT Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
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"Ed Huntress" wrote:
Try walking down the shoulder of a road with a metal detector. That's how a friend of mine used to gather his wheel weights for casting sinkers. Most of them are covered up after a heavy rain. Snow cover is a bit thick right now. Jog my mind after the spring thaw. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
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On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 12:41:21 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote: I can remember losing (1) wheelweight in the aprox 8 million+ miles Ive driven in the past 35 yrs. And along with the wheel weight..I lost the entire front end of that red Rambler station wagon Id just bought..when I t-boned the Mustang in Gaylord Michigan in 1974. And I picked it up. Along with the piece of blown open COPPER brake line the seller had plumbed the car with. Copper tubing on the brakes? Damn, that's Premeditated Murder evidence there - car was rigged for a brake failure, anything that old was single circuit. Not If it fails, WHEN it fails. Did you ever track down said seller and have a little discussion about his repair methods and materials selection? I wouldn't have been all that polite in the same situation. -- Bruce -- |
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On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 20:04:04 -0800, Hawke
wrote: wrote: On Dec 31, 1:51 am, "John R. Carroll" wrote: On what factual and researched basis would you make your claim? Were you also an indigent paperboy, traipsing across the uninhabited areas of America, collecting refuse for sale? Caltrans reports eight ton miles of garbage per year on Interstate 5 between Los Angeles and CA-99 alone. That's 8X76X2000 = One Million Two Hundred Thousand Pounds of crap. Do your own homework. LOL -- John R. Carroll My estimates are based on the number of wheel weights that have come off cars that I have driven. That and if the number of wheel weights lost was as large a number as the government estimates, someone would have designed a better wheel weight. We could conduct an informal poll of RCM readers. How many of you have experienced a loss of a wheel weight in the last five years? And how many cars does this cover? I personally can not remember ever having a wheel weight lost from a car I have owned and operated. Granted it is not something that I would make a special effort to remember. Which is why I specified five years as the time frame to consider. I am reasonably confident that I have not lost any wheel weights from any of the cars I have owed during the last five years. The government sites with estimates on wheel weight loss did not provide how they made their estimates. I expect they did not do any analysis of the accuracy of their estimates, but did note that one of the sites revised their estimate from 5000 tons to 1600 tons. That is not something that makes me believe that a lot of effort was made to obtain an accurate estimate. In short, I have more faith in my estimate than in one made by the EPA. If the EPA provided how they arrived at their estimate, I might change my mind. Dan What you are doing is basing your opinion on your own personal experience. That's fine but it's not very reliable because your experience could by typical or it could be unusual. The EPA, on the other hand, has to do things scientifically. So they have done a study by professionals who actually go out and measure, weigh, and figure out their conclusions statistically. When you compare the reliability of they way they come up with an opinion and they way you do your way comes out a poor second. So even if the EPA makes some mistakes and gets things wrong occasionally, their degree of getting it right is far better than your personal experience is. Hawke While individual experience may or may not be typical, it's never a bad idea to be a bit skeptical of government data. Government agencies like EPA, DOE, DARPA, NASA and many more fund contract research (science)done by competitive bids from academia and industrial research orgs. I was a research puke, I know how that works. You're a political scientist so you should know how politics can strongly influence and distort scientific findings. I defer to you in the area of political science. You may or may not know that the gummint does little research itself. The various and several gummint labs are managed by civilian entities under contract. I'm not making this up: part of being a research puke is finding money to do research, charge number on my timecard, continued employment, support for my family. That was dicey at times. We enjoyed the opportunity to contribute and prosper without predatory greed during our working days. Political influence and spin on research findings is SOP. Some researchers spin to win contracts, and the agencies that buy the research spin the findings even if the researchers are suicidally honest and objective in their reported findings. |
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On Jan 1, 4:04*am, Hawke wrote:
In short, I have more faith in my estimate than in one made by the EPA. *If the EPA provided how they arrived at their estimate, I might change my mind. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan What you are doing is basing your opinion on your own personal experience. That's fine but it's not very reliable because your experience could by typical or it could be unusual. The EPA, on the other hand, has to do things scientifically. So they have done a study by professionals who actually go out and measure, weigh, and figure out their conclusions statistically. When you compare the reliability of they way they come up with an opinion and they way you do your way comes out a poor second. So even if the EPA makes some mistakes and gets things wrong occasionally, their degree of getting it right is far better than your personal experience is. Hawke I still think personal observation may be better than relying on a EPA estimate. If you were a civil servant and your boss asked you to do an estimate on how many wheel weights were lost per year. And you knew your boss was pushing for outlawing lead wheel weights. Well I wouldn't say you would lie, but I bet you would use the most optimistic estimates to use for calculations. I am a professional. And learned to do error calculations in college. I do not trust any estimates that do not include the error calculation. Have a look at http://phys.columbia.edu/~tutorial/ Welcome to the Error Analysis Tutorial. This tutorial will help you master the error analysis in the first-year, college physics laboratory. Error analysis may seem tedious; however, without proper error analysis, no valid scientific conclusions can be drawn. In fact, as the picture below illustrates, bad things can happen if error analysis is ignored. Since there is no way to avoid error analysis, it is best to learn how to do it right. After going through this tutorial not only will you know how to do it right, you might even find error analysis easy! The tutorial is organized in five chapters. Dan |
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On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 20:40:56 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote: On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 12:41:21 -0800, Gunner Asch wrote: I can remember losing (1) wheelweight in the aprox 8 million+ miles Ive driven in the past 35 yrs. And along with the wheel weight..I lost the entire front end of that red Rambler station wagon Id just bought..when I t-boned the Mustang in Gaylord Michigan in 1974. And I picked it up. Along with the piece of blown open COPPER brake line the seller had plumbed the car with. Copper tubing on the brakes? Damn, that's Premeditated Murder evidence there - car was rigged for a brake failure, anything that old was single circuit. Not If it fails, WHEN it fails. Did you ever track down said seller and have a little discussion about his repair methods and materials selection? I wouldn't have been all that polite in the same situation. -- Bruce -- I didnt..but the Michigan State Police sure did. As well as my insurance company. I dont learn all the details..but they made it rather unpleasant for him. Gunner "I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer." -- Benjamin Franklin, /The Encouragement of Idleness/, 1766 |
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On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:06:24 -0800, Hawke
wrote: The comparison is between anecdotal and scientifically collected data, of which there is no comparison. This is a good example. As many people noted, they have never lost a wheel weight. But the evidence shows that millions of tons of lead from wheel weights are lost every year. I'll believe the government's findings in this case over what the average guy knows any day of the week. Hawke Plus, the average person doesn't have a clue if he's lost a wheel weight. Anecdote: I've changed 4 tires at home in the last year or so. In 3 cases I drove with the new (or swapped) wheel/tire without any weights until I could get them balanced. I couldn't tell any difference before and after. On the fourth, I took off the tape weights before changing the tire, but forgot the rim weight on the inside. I still couldn't tell any difference. I expect that newer tires and wheels don't need as much correction as in the old days. Wayne |
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On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:06:24 -0800, Hawke
wrote: Don Foreman wrote: On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 20:04:04 -0800, Hawke wrote: wrote: On Dec 31, 1:51 am, "John R. Carroll" wrote: On what factual and researched basis would you make your claim? Were you also an indigent paperboy, traipsing across the uninhabited areas of America, collecting refuse for sale? Caltrans reports eight ton miles of garbage per year on Interstate 5 between Los Angeles and CA-99 alone. That's 8X76X2000 = One Million Two Hundred Thousand Pounds of crap. Do your own homework. LOL -- John R. Carroll My estimates are based on the number of wheel weights that have come off cars that I have driven. That and if the number of wheel weights lost was as large a number as the government estimates, someone would have designed a better wheel weight. We could conduct an informal poll of RCM readers. How many of you have experienced a loss of a wheel weight in the last five years? And how many cars does this cover? I personally can not remember ever having a wheel weight lost from a car I have owned and operated. Granted it is not something that I would make a special effort to remember. Which is why I specified five years as the time frame to consider. I am reasonably confident that I have not lost any wheel weights from any of the cars I have owed during the last five years. The government sites with estimates on wheel weight loss did not provide how they made their estimates. I expect they did not do any analysis of the accuracy of their estimates, but did note that one of the sites revised their estimate from 5000 tons to 1600 tons. That is not something that makes me believe that a lot of effort was made to obtain an accurate estimate. In short, I have more faith in my estimate than in one made by the EPA. If the EPA provided how they arrived at their estimate, I might change my mind. Dan What you are doing is basing your opinion on your own personal experience. That's fine but it's not very reliable because your experience could by typical or it could be unusual. The EPA, on the other hand, has to do things scientifically. So they have done a study by professionals who actually go out and measure, weigh, and figure out their conclusions statistically. When you compare the reliability of they way they come up with an opinion and they way you do your way comes out a poor second. So even if the EPA makes some mistakes and gets things wrong occasionally, their degree of getting it right is far better than your personal experience is. Hawke While individual experience may or may not be typical, it's never a bad idea to be a bit skeptical of government data. Government agencies like EPA, DOE, DARPA, NASA and many more fund contract research (science)done by competitive bids from academia and industrial research orgs. I was a research puke, I know how that works. You're a political scientist so you should know how politics can strongly influence and distort scientific findings. I defer to you in the area of political science. You may or may not know that the gummint does little research itself. The various and several gummint labs are managed by civilian entities under contract. I'm not making this up: part of being a research puke is finding money to do research, charge number on my timecard, continued employment, support for my family. That was dicey at times. We enjoyed the opportunity to contribute and prosper without predatory greed during our working days. Political influence and spin on research findings is SOP. Some researchers spin to win contracts, and the agencies that buy the research spin the findings even if the researchers are suicidally honest and objective in their reported findings. Yeah, I completely agree. Everything that comes from government agencies has to be taken with a bit of skepticism because there is an element of politics in all of it. The government is not above cherry picking just the research that wants so it can support the policies it wants to implement. You can't just accept anything from the government at face value. But I was mainly commenting about the accuracy and reliability you get from a qualified government agency as compared to your own personal experience. The comparison is between anecdotal and scientifically collected data, of which there is no comparison. This is a good example. As many people noted, they have never lost a wheel weight. But the evidence shows that millions of tons of lead from wheel weights are lost every year. I'll believe the government's findings in this case over what the average guy knows any day of the week. Hawke A sniff test is still in order. A DOT study estimated there to be about 250 million automobiles in the US in 2007. If there was 1/2 lb of lead on each wheel rather than 2 or 3 ounces as is more usual, that'd be 2 lb of lead per car or about 256,000 tons total. Even if every wheel weight in the country fell off once per year, it's still not millions of tons. |
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45 ACP ammo
On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 21:36:20 -0800, Hawke
wrote: wrote: On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:06:24 -0800, Hawke wrote: The comparison is between anecdotal and scientifically collected data, of which there is no comparison. This is a good example. As many people noted, they have never lost a wheel weight. But the evidence shows that millions of tons of lead from wheel weights are lost every year. I'll believe the government's findings in this case over what the average guy knows any day of the week. Hawke Plus, the average person doesn't have a clue if he's lost a wheel weight. Anecdote: I've changed 4 tires at home in the last year or so. In 3 cases I drove with the new (or swapped) wheel/tire without any weights until I could get them balanced. I couldn't tell any difference before and after. On the fourth, I took off the tape weights before changing the tire, but forgot the rim weight on the inside. I still couldn't tell any difference. I expect that newer tires and wheels don't need as much correction as in the old days. Wayne What usually happens when you lose wheel weights isn't that the wheel goes so far out of balance that it is actually noticeable. I'd put money against your assertion in a blind test. My car is pretty average, close to 2 tons with alloy wheels and medium-profile tires. As I said, I've already had 3 tests in not much more than a year. I guarantee that if I removed all the weights from one wheel you wouldn't be able to tell me which by driving the vehicle. It's easy enough to test for yourself - mark the positions of one wheel's weights and then take them off for a bit. I also doubt that any difference in tire wear will show up, but long term I suppose it's possible. About the only reasons I can think of that my experience might not be typical is that I seldom get to drive on glass-smooth roads, and the tires in question are relatively light compared to what's used on pickups etc. I do remember in the old days having wheels and tires with gobs of balancing weights, and some that would visibly hop if they weren't balanced. Wheels (alloy) and tires both seem to be lighter and more uniform these days. Lead is not good stuff as the Romans found out when they used it in vessels they stored wine in. It wasn't good in our gas, it was not good in our paint or in our shotgun shells. Lead is pretty nasty stuff and the less people are exposed to it the better. Yup, there's no question about that. hadn't heard anything about wheel weights being phased out until now but it sounds like a good idea to me. It's also one of those things where I would believe it without questioning the data if the EPA said millions of pounds of it was being dispersed by wheel weights flying off of cars. I don't doubt that weights fly off, but the quantity does seem high. I'd expect more weights to get into the environment through lazy or sleazy disposal practices. I have my own tire changer and get to use it more than most because of the rocky roads and the desert rats who don't secure their loads of trash. Still, I don't change all that many tires, yet I've accumulated quite a lot of weights. So I can imagine how fast they pile up at tire stores, and that a lot of them aren't disposed of properly. Here's a little anecdote to illustrate: a local truss company was paying quite a bit to have their cut-offs taken to the dump. A new hauler came along and bid the disposal at about half the previous guy's price. The new hauler was able to do that by avoiding dump fees - he was giving away the cutoffs wherever he could, and most of it is just piled up and rotting at hundreds of sites. Here's an interesting read on another example http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/mai...ectionID=1&S=1 Check out the chain of contractors, which finally got down to a crook. Wayne |
45 ACP ammo
These are the fine folks that forced the low lead batteries onto us.
Those that have medium power ability and flake off to nothing. The rational - taking lead off the road - false stats again. I finally quit buying replacement batteries - the first one lasted 2 months - new truck - The last battery was a replacement - 3 year old and so far so good. The high capacity full lead. Remember we really use the heck out of the battery now-a-days - with the headlights on at all times - and putting around in town without enough power to charge a battery up, thus depleting and drawing high currents. This displaces large amounts of lead and this makes for a weak plate. Cold weather is hardest on them - electrolyte is low on ionic ability. Up north, they use battery tapes - heater tapes for pipes ... to keep the battery warm for better current flow and ionic exchanges. Martin Don Foreman wrote: On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:06:24 -0800, Hawke wrote: Don Foreman wrote: On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 20:04:04 -0800, Hawke wrote: wrote: On Dec 31, 1:51 am, "John R. Carroll" wrote: On what factual and researched basis would you make your claim? Were you also an indigent paperboy, traipsing across the uninhabited areas of America, collecting refuse for sale? Caltrans reports eight ton miles of garbage per year on Interstate 5 between Los Angeles and CA-99 alone. That's 8X76X2000 = One Million Two Hundred Thousand Pounds of crap. Do your own homework. LOL -- John R. Carroll My estimates are based on the number of wheel weights that have come off cars that I have driven. That and if the number of wheel weights lost was as large a number as the government estimates, someone would have designed a better wheel weight. We could conduct an informal poll of RCM readers. How many of you have experienced a loss of a wheel weight in the last five years? And how many cars does this cover? I personally can not remember ever having a wheel weight lost from a car I have owned and operated. Granted it is not something that I would make a special effort to remember. Which is why I specified five years as the time frame to consider. I am reasonably confident that I have not lost any wheel weights from any of the cars I have owed during the last five years. The government sites with estimates on wheel weight loss did not provide how they made their estimates. I expect they did not do any analysis of the accuracy of their estimates, but did note that one of the sites revised their estimate from 5000 tons to 1600 tons. That is not something that makes me believe that a lot of effort was made to obtain an accurate estimate. In short, I have more faith in my estimate than in one made by the EPA. If the EPA provided how they arrived at their estimate, I might change my mind. Dan What you are doing is basing your opinion on your own personal experience. That's fine but it's not very reliable because your experience could by typical or it could be unusual. The EPA, on the other hand, has to do things scientifically. So they have done a study by professionals who actually go out and measure, weigh, and figure out their conclusions statistically. When you compare the reliability of they way they come up with an opinion and they way you do your way comes out a poor second. So even if the EPA makes some mistakes and gets things wrong occasionally, their degree of getting it right is far better than your personal experience is. Hawke While individual experience may or may not be typical, it's never a bad idea to be a bit skeptical of government data. Government agencies like EPA, DOE, DARPA, NASA and many more fund contract research (science)done by competitive bids from academia and industrial research orgs. I was a research puke, I know how that works. You're a political scientist so you should know how politics can strongly influence and distort scientific findings. I defer to you in the area of political science. You may or may not know that the gummint does little research itself. The various and several gummint labs are managed by civilian entities under contract. I'm not making this up: part of being a research puke is finding money to do research, charge number on my timecard, continued employment, support for my family. That was dicey at times. We enjoyed the opportunity to contribute and prosper without predatory greed during our working days. Political influence and spin on research findings is SOP. Some researchers spin to win contracts, and the agencies that buy the research spin the findings even if the researchers are suicidally honest and objective in their reported findings. Yeah, I completely agree. Everything that comes from government agencies has to be taken with a bit of skepticism because there is an element of politics in all of it. The government is not above cherry picking just the research that wants so it can support the policies it wants to implement. You can't just accept anything from the government at face value. But I was mainly commenting about the accuracy and reliability you get from a qualified government agency as compared to your own personal experience. The comparison is between anecdotal and scientifically collected data, of which there is no comparison. This is a good example. As many people noted, they have never lost a wheel weight. But the evidence shows that millions of tons of lead from wheel weights are lost every year. I'll believe the government's findings in this case over what the average guy knows any day of the week. Hawke A sniff test is still in order. A DOT study estimated there to be about 250 million automobiles in the US in 2007. If there was 1/2 lb of lead on each wheel rather than 2 or 3 ounces as is more usual, that'd be 2 lb of lead per car or about 256,000 tons total. Even if every wheel weight in the country fell off once per year, it's still not millions of tons. |
45 ACP ammo
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
These are the fine folks that forced the low lead batteries onto us. Those that have medium power ability and flake off to nothing. The rational - taking lead off the road - false stats again. I finally quit buying replacement batteries - the first one lasted 2 months - new truck - The last battery was a replacement - 3 year old and so far so good. The high capacity full lead. Remember we really use the heck out of the battery now-a-days - with the headlights on at all times - and putting around in town without enough power to charge a battery up, thus depleting and drawing high currents. This displaces large amounts of lead and this makes for a weak plate. Cold weather is hardest on them - electrolyte is low on ionic ability. Up north, they use battery tapes - heater tapes for pipes ... to keep the battery warm for better current flow and ionic exchanges. Every vehicle battery I own is a gel pack. -- John R. Carroll |
45 ACP ammo
On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 22:30:54 -0600, the infamous "Martin H. Eastburn"
scrawled the following: These are the fine folks that forced the low lead batteries onto us. Those that have medium power ability and flake off to nothing. The rational - taking lead off the road - false stats again. Since when did the PTBs ever use rational thought to create laws? Remember we really use the heck out of the battery now-a-days - with the headlights on at all times - and putting around in town without enough power to charge a battery up, thus depleting and drawing high currents. That's simply not true, Martin. Just running through the gears to 35mph is plenty of rpm for the alternator to maintain a full charge to the battery. Headlights draw 55W apiece and it takes hours to run a battery down with the engine off. Show me cites to the battery destruction, please. I simply don't believe it. (ex mechanic here) For a test, with the engine idling, turn your heater, headlights, and the radio on with your auto aimed at the garage door. You'll see the lights dim a bit with everything on. That shows a battery discharge situation. Now give it a tiny bit of gas. Once the RPM comes up to about 1,000, the lights are on full, showing a charging situation. When you're driving, even at 25mph, your RPM seldom comes below 1,000. That's enough to keep the battery fully charged every time you drive and it's why the car starts every time you try. STARTING is the only high-draw situation for most car batteries. Hell, the boombox stereos with 1kw amps take more power than the lights nowadays, but those idiots _deserve_ to have their batteries self- destruct. Rap "music" is a crime against nature. ;) This displaces large amounts of lead and this makes for a weak plate. Cites? Cold weather is hardest on them - electrolyte is low on ionic ability. Up north, they use battery tapes - heater tapes for pipes ... to keep the battery warm for better current flow and ionic exchanges. Northerners can have that climate. I'll wait for AGWK to warm up SoOr a bit more for me. -- Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness. --Thomas Paine |
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