As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

"stryped" wrote in message
...
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

I'll make a general comment on image 55. As you run romex cable, you have to
unwind it so that there are no twists. If you're pulling it out of the
middle of the box, you have to whip it around to take the turns out. The
other way is to pull it off the outside of the coil with the coil turning.
Then you staple it tight and pull it straight and use the next staple to
keep it straight and aligned with the edge of the stud or joist. There
should be no twists between staples.

I'll make a general comment on image 55. As you run romex cable, you have
to unwind it so that there are no twists. If you're pulling it out of the
middle of the box, you have to whip it around to take the turns out. The
other way is to pull it off the outside of the coil with the coil turning.

There's and easier way to keep it straight. Take it out of the box. Pul
thrre turns off holding in your left hand off the left side. Switch, take
three turns off in your right hand off the right side and so on. The turns
cancel and its straight.

Karl

stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/


Get rid of the twists, I do not like the jumps from truss to truss one
bit, even if they would pass code, which I doubt, unless you close the
ceiling, they are begging to have stuff hung on them or snagged on them.
Run it neat and clean, no diagonals, radius the corners neatly, and
dress the stuff out like a pro.


Oh yeah, double your fire policy, and your liability one too.

stryped wrote in news:865b7e7c-d29b-4eae-ac8c-
:

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/


First - Get your grounds off the neutral bus! They go on the other
strip directly bolted to the metal housing of the panel.

Cable jacket shouldn't enter the box more than about 1/4"

A pro would leave 8-10" of cable outside the box and staple it, work his
way to the next box and then when all the cable pulling and stapling was
done switch tool pouches and go back around and strip 6" off the
jackets. Then they get shoved into the box until the jacket is just past
the clamp, any little extra slack is left outside the box. The splicing
would also be done at this point.
Way easier than trying to get a knife into the back of the box to strip
the jacket cleanly.

Codes vary from area to area but around here if the headroom above the
bottom truss chord exceeds 3' then you can't run over the tops of the
truss like you have. And since you can't drill an engineered truss
wires would be stapled to the sides of the truss where they go parallel.
Where they have to go perpendicular then they first go out towards the
eave until headroom is below 3' before they jump on top or they can be
on top of a continous running board. Conviently the roof framers give a
nice running board in the form of the strapping that stabilizes and
spaces the bottom truss chords. The idea is you won't subject the
cables to damage from crawling around and piling stuff for storage that
way.

I wouldn't put staples as close as you have to some of your boxes, 6-
12" is good. Holes for cables run through studs are usually at a
consistent height about 12" away from the box. That gives you room to
put a staple where it goes up to a box.

I dont know that you ned to worry about the truss plates that much.
Running across the face of them shouldn't require any special treatment.
Just stay away from the edges.

A board or two nailed between the studs above the panel will give you a
place to staple and provide room so your cables aren't excessively
bundled.

"stryped" wrote in message
...
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

Looks good to me man, drive on. Are you going to sheet rock and insulate
this building?

"Charles U Farley" wrote in message
...
stryped wrote in news:865b7e7c-d29b-4eae-ac8c-
:

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/


First - Get your grounds off the neutral bus! They go on the other
strip directly bolted to the metal housing of the panel.

And don't send that screw in to bond the neutral bus to the box, that's not
for subpanels. All the wires should be straight as they exit breakers and
busses and then radius.


Cable jacket shouldn't enter the box more than about 1/4"

A pro would leave 8-10" of cable outside the box and staple it, work his
way to the next box and then when all the cable pulling and stapling was
done switch tool pouches and go back around and strip 6" off the
jackets. Then they get shoved into the box until the jacket is just past
the clamp, any little extra slack is left outside the box. The splicing
would also be done at this point.
Way easier than trying to get a knife into the back of the box to strip
the jacket cleanly.

Codes vary from area to area but around here if the headroom above the
bottom truss chord exceeds 3' then you can't run over the tops of the
truss like you have. And since you can't drill an engineered truss
wires would be stapled to the sides of the truss where they go parallel.
Where they have to go perpendicular then they first go out towards the
eave until headroom is below 3' before they jump on top or they can be
on top of a continous running board. Conviently the roof framers give a
nice running board in the form of the strapping that stabilizes and
spaces the bottom truss chords. The idea is you won't subject the
cables to damage from crawling around and piling stuff for storage that
way.

I wouldn't put staples as close as you have to some of your boxes, 6-
12" is good. Holes for cables run through studs are usually at a
consistent height about 12" away from the box. That gives you room to
put a staple where it goes up to a box.

We used to drill about hip height for runs through studs. It's a convenient
place to hold the drill and also to pull the cable. Some guys like to use a
long nail-eater auger bit and angle the drill, I prefer a short bit on a
right angle drill, it's a little slower but the holes are all straight which
makes pulling a little easier.

On Sep 8, 1:40*am, "Tim" wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message

...

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

Looks good to me man, drive on. Are you going to sheet rock and insulate
this building?

I am going to insulate it. I am toyign with the idea of using 7/16 osb
for the walls and ceiling.

Also, my neutals are in the neutral bus bar and my grounds are in the
grounding buss bar. The picture may be deceptive because the panel is
upside down. (Read my previous postings). My panel said to mount it
upside down if it was going to be bottom fed.

On Sep 7, 10:38*pm, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

Get rid of the twists, I do not like the jumps from truss to truss one
bit, even if they would pass code, which I doubt, unless you close the
ceiling, they are begging to have stuff hung on them or snagged on them.
* Run it neat and clean, no diagonals, radius the corners neatly, and
dress the stuff out like a pro.

Oh yeah, double your fire policy, and your liability one too.

Does it not look neat the way I did it?

I plan on runnign 2x4's between the studs where the wires run across.
And I plan on finishign the ceiling in osb.

Oh yeah, double your fire policy, and your liability one too.

Are you saying my wiring looks unsafe?

On Sep 8, 9:09*am, stryped wrote:
Oh yeah, double your fire policy, and your liability one too.

Are you saying my wiring looks unsafe?

Using the neutral bus for the ground wires would NEVER pass and is
unsafe. My inspector would say something about the neatness in the
box. He would also say something about the twists and wires crossing
on top of other wires. I'm not sure if he wouldn't approve it, just
that he would say something.

On Sep 8, 10:33*am, Jesse wrote:
On Sep 8, 9:09*am, stryped wrote:

Oh yeah, double your fire policy, and your liability one too.

Are you saying my wiring looks unsafe?

Using the neutral bus for the ground wires would NEVER pass and is
unsafe. My inspector would say something about the neatness in the
box. He would also say something about the twists and wires crossing
on top of other wires. I'm not sure if he wouldn't approve it, just
that he would say something.

I did not use the neutral bus bar for grounds. As I said, my box is
upside down because the instructions told me to do it that way if it
was beign bottom fed. My ground bus is on the left, my neutral is on
the right.

Not sure what you mean by "wres crossing on top of other wires". I
tried to use cable stackers where I could.

I wanted it to look neat but am having trouble figuring out how to run
everything. What can i do to make the box appear "neater"?

On Sep 8, 7:22*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , stryped wrote:

I will move them. Thanks!

If you move them, be sure you *also* remove the green bonding screw from the
bar where you have them connected now. That screw connects that bar to the
case, and is what enables you to use that bar as a grounding bar -- and,
conversely, prohibits it from being used as a neutral bar. Someone may later
see what is apparently an unused neutral bar, not notice the bonding screw,
and connect a neutral wire to that bar -- creating a shock hazard.

Thanks for all of the advice. That is why I post on here. You guys
came up with that when no on ein the electrical enginnering forum did.

I will move the wires but I did verify with a continuity meter that
the left bank has continuity to the enclsure. It even says "ground
strap" on it. The left bank says "neutral strap" and doe not have
continuity to the cabinet.

Someone said I need to remove the screw to isolate where I have the
grounds now to the cabinet. Will the inspector be ok with this?

Also, I plan on using 10-3 wire and installing a 30 amp recepticle for
a futre air compressor. Also a 50 amp wire for my lincoln buzz box. Is
it ok to put both those double pole breakers on the same side of the
panel as my 100 amp main? Or will that be some type of "imbalance"?

I also plan on putting those two outlets near my overhead garage door
so I can get my welder and things outside if I need to weld on
somethign there. Is there a certain distance it needs to be away from
he door? To be hones, I will probably leave the breaks for these two
off most of the time until I need to use them.

On 2009-09-09, stryped wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:22*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , stryped wrote:

I will move them. Thanks!

If you move them, be sure you *also* remove the green bonding screw from the
bar where you have them connected now. That screw connects that bar to the
case, and is what enables you to use that bar as a grounding bar -- and,
conversely, prohibits it from being used as a neutral bar. Someone may later
see what is apparently an unused neutral bar, not notice the bonding screw,
and connect a neutral wire to that bar -- creating a shock hazard.

Thanks for all of the advice. That is why I post on here. You guys
came up with that when no on ein the electrical enginnering forum did.

I will move the wires but I did verify with a continuity meter that
the left bank has continuity to the enclsure. It even says "ground
strap" on it. The left bank says "neutral strap" and doe not have
continuity to the cabinet.

So -- as long as the green bonding screw (I did not notice that
in the photos) is in place -- it can be used as a grounding buss, but
allows for someone making a mistake sometime later -- whether it is
grounded or not, depending on what they *expect* to see. (You know how
what you see can differ from what is really there when you have strong
expectations? :-)

Now -- IIRC, you are feeding this from a breaker box in the main
house, rather than through a different meter entrance from the power
company's pole or subterranean feed. Under those circumstances, neutral
and ground must *not* be bonded together (only can be so at the main
box where the service comes in from the meter). So I would consider it
safer to pull the green bonding screw, which will float the bus above
ground, connect all grounds to the separate strip which is mounted
directly on the metal of the box, and use those inner buss strips as
neutral busses only. That way, they are convenient to the breakers on
that side of the box, and you only have to route the ground wires the
long way around to the real ground buss.

Someone said I need to remove the screw to isolate where I have the
grounds now to the cabinet. Will the inspector be ok with this?

He probably will -- if those are used as neutrals only. He
won't be happy with the screw removed if you are using it for grounds
(as you are now), or the screw present with it used as neutrals, since
this is not a *primary* service entrance.

Also, I plan on using 10-3 wire and installing a 30 amp recepticle for
a futre air compressor. Also a 50 amp wire for my lincoln buzz box. Is
it ok to put both those double pole breakers on the same side of the
panel as my 100 amp main? Or will that be some type of "imbalance"?

More questions.

1) Are you feeding 240 VAC to the box from your main service
entrance? If so, then every other blade in the box is from one
of the two feeds, and the ones between them are from the other.

Your feed will be through an appropriately rated 240 VAC
breaker so you are feeding both internal busses no matter which
side the feed breaker is on.

2) Are your air compressor and buzz box 120 VAC or 240 VAC
devices? If they are 240 VAC devices, using dual breakers, then
no matter where in the box you put them, they will be drawing
half from each buss.

If the devices are both 120 VAC devices, then if you put two
breakers adjacent to each other, they will be drawing from
two different busses, so no problem.

However -- if both are 120 VAC devices, and you have a gap
between the two breakers, then both will be loading only one
side of the buss, so you could get enough of an imbalance so
they could pop the main breaker just from the total current on
one side.

I also plan on putting those two outlets near my overhead garage door
so I can get my welder and things outside if I need to weld on
somethign there. Is there a certain distance it needs to be away from
he door? To be hones, I will probably leave the breaks for these two
off most of the time until I need to use them.

I have no idea on this one. If they are close to garage doors
which may be open during a rainstorm, I would suggest that you put
outdoor outlets in place (the ones with a spring-loaded cap to keep
water out of the outlet during strong rain.

And code *might* want you to put GFIs on those outlets in any
case, which might be a problem with the compressor, and which I'll bet
would trip from leakages in the buzz-box.

What I might consider doing for those outlets is to mount them
in the ceiling beside the garage door, so rain can't get into them. Go
for the twist-lock connectors so the weight of the cord won't pull it
out of the outlet.

Note that I am not a licensed electrician. I've done lots of
electronics work, but that is different, since it does not have the
massive amount of regulation that power wiring has for safety reasons.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article , stryped wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:22=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, stryped wrote:

I will move them. Thanks!

If you move them, be sure you *also* remove the green bonding screw from the
bar where you have them connected now. That screw connects that bar to the
case, and is what enables you to use that bar as a grounding bar -- and,
conversely, prohibits it from being used as a neutral bar. Someone may later
see what is apparently an unused neutral bar, not notice the bonding screw,
and connect a neutral wire to that bar -- creating a shock hazard.

Thanks for all of the advice. That is why I post on here. You guys
came up with that when no on ein the electrical enginnering forum did.

I will move the wires but I did verify with a continuity meter that
the left bank has continuity to the enclsure. It even says "ground
strap" on it. The left bank says "neutral strap" and doe not have
continuity to the cabinet.

Someone said I need to remove the screw to isolate where I have the
grounds now to the cabinet. Will the inspector be ok with this?

Read what I wrote above. Read my other post in this thread. The "Cliffs Notes"
version: if you leave the wires where they are now, you *MUST* leave the screw
in place too; if you move the wires to the small completely uninsulated bar,
you *should* remove the screw. Reasons explained above.

Also, I plan on using 10-3 wire and installing a 30 amp recepticle for
a futre air compressor. Also a 50 amp wire for my lincoln buzz box. Is
it ok to put both those double pole breakers on the same side of the
panel as my 100 amp main? Or will that be some type of "imbalance"?

It doesn't matter which side of the panel you put a double-pole breaker on.
It's connected to both hot legs anyway.

I also plan on putting those two outlets near my overhead garage door
so I can get my welder and things outside if I need to weld on
somethign there. Is there a certain distance it needs to be away from
he door?

No.

To be hones, I will probably leave the breaks for these two
off most of the time until I need to use them.

Why? Breakers are not meant to be used as switches. Leave them on all the
time. (They're not faucets, either -- they don't leak if left on.)

In article , "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
So -- as long as the green bonding screw (I did not notice that
in the photos) is in place -- it can be used as a grounding buss, but
allows for someone making a mistake sometime later -- whether it is
grounded or not, depending on what they *expect* to see. (You know how
what you see can differ from what is really there when you have strong
expectations? :-)

Technically, you're right, but consider the next guy to come along to add a
circuit in that box. Either he knows the Code and good practice, or he's a
typical homeowner who knows just enough to be dangerous.

In the first case, he's going to see what appears to be a neutral bar, with a
lot of bare wires in it -- and realize that something's out of the ordinary,
investigate, and see that it's set up correctly, if a little strangely.

In the second case, he's going to see one bar on the left with a bunch of bare
wires in it, and another bar on the right with a bunch of white wires in it,
and figure bare wires go on the left, white wires on the right.

Either way, everything's ok.

stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

This is not a comment on the job in the photos, but is anybody else
terrified when they see romex and plastic boxes?

On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 03:31:33 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

This is not a comment on the job in the photos, but is anybody else
terrified when they see romex and plastic boxes?


What scared me was when I replaced a light switch in my BiL's mobile
in Florida and found a type of wiring more suited to low grade signal
wiring; no box as such, just a plastic cover over the back of the
switch which was held in place in the hole in the paneling by bend
down metal tabs, with the wires punched down in slots like telephone
wiring. It did specify no more than two wires per slot. Imagine
something like this combined with Aluminium wiring!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 03:31:33 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

This is not a comment on the job in the photos, but is anybody else
terrified when they see romex and plastic boxes?


No. Should we be?

Gunner

The current Democratic party has lost its ideological basis for
existence.
- It is NOT fiscally responsible.
- It is NOT ethically honorable.
- It has started wars based on lies.
- It does not support the well-being of americans - only billionaires.
- It has suppresed constitutional guaranteed liberties.
- It has foisted a liar as president upon America.
- It has violated US national sovereignty in trade treaties.
- It has refused to enforce the national borders.

....It no longer has valid reasons to exist.
Lorad474

On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 00:27:13 -0400, Gerald Miller
wrote:

On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 03:31:33 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

This is not a comment on the job in the photos, but is anybody else
terrified when they see romex and plastic boxes?


What scared me was when I replaced a light switch in my BiL's mobile
in Florida and found a type of wiring more suited to low grade signal
wiring; no box as such, just a plastic cover over the back of the
switch which was held in place in the hole in the paneling by bend
down metal tabs, with the wires punched down in slots like telephone
wiring. It did specify no more than two wires per slot. Imagine
something like this combined with Aluminium wiring!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada


Ive seen em before. And I suspect they burned down at least 2 mobile
homes that Im aware of.

Gunner

The current Democratic party has lost its ideological basis for
existence.
- It is NOT fiscally responsible.
- It is NOT ethically honorable.
- It has started wars based on lies.
- It does not support the well-being of americans - only billionaires.
- It has suppresed constitutional guaranteed liberties.
- It has foisted a liar as president upon America.
- It has violated US national sovereignty in trade treaties.
- It has refused to enforce the national borders.

....It no longer has valid reasons to exist.
Lorad474

stryped wrote in news:89d610e5-8cc7-4b6b-b6e2-
:

I did not use the neutral bus bar for grounds. As I said, my box is
upside down because the instructions told me to do it that way if it
was beign bottom fed. My ground bus is on the left, my neutral is on
the right.

That's some F'd up panel design. Why make a panel with a insulated bus on
one side and make it suitable for grounds with a bonding screw then stick a
ground only strip beside it. Pull the screw out and what happens, it
floats? Hey it's isolated ground ready. Sometime I actually wish for that,
but not something that should be available at the average home center.

So if you were to enter a cable on that side and you for some reason chose
to have that mystery buss bonded to ground instead of jumped to neutral you
have to wrap the 'neutral' wires all the way around to the other side of
the panel to hit the neutral bar?

Every major brand in current production I have seen has a neutral bus on
each side. Who makes this thing anyway? I can't quite make out the name
on the breakers.

They say the CEC code is being harmonized with the NEC, hope crap like that
doesn't start showing up around here.

On Sep 8, 11:27*pm, Gerald Miller wrote:
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 03:31:33 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

wrote:
stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

This is not a comment on the job in the photos, but is anybody else
terrified when they see romex and plastic boxes?

What scared me was when I replaced a light switch in my BiL's mobile
in Florida and found a type of wiring more suited to low grade signal
wiring; no box as such, just a plastic cover over the back of the
switch which was held in place in the hole in the paneling by bend
down metal tabs, with the wires punched down in slots like telephone
wiring. It did specify no more than two wires per slot. Imagine
something like this combined with Aluminium wiring!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Are plastic boxes ok and allowed ot use in a detatched building if the
walls are left open?

On Sep 9, 2:05*am, Charles U Farley wrote:
stryped wrote in news:89d610e5-8cc7-4b6b-b6e2-
:

I did not use the neutral bus bar for grounds. As I said, my box is
upside down because the instructions told me to do it that way if it
was beign bottom fed. My ground bus is on the left, my neutral is on
the right.

That's some F'd up panel design. Why make a panel with a insulated bus on
one side and make it suitable for grounds with a bonding screw then stick a
ground only strip beside it. *Pull the screw out and what happens, it
floats? *Hey it's isolated ground ready. Sometime I actually wish for that,
but not something that should be available at the average home center.

So if you were to enter a cable on that side and you for some reason chose
to have that mystery buss bonded to ground instead of jumped to neutral you
have to wrap the 'neutral' wires *all the way around to the other side of
the panel to hit the neutral bar?

Every major brand in current production I have seen has a neutral bus on
each side. *Who makes this thing anyway? *I can't quite make out the name
on the breakers.

They say the CEC code is being harmonized with the NEC, hope crap like that
doesn't start showing up around here.

It is General Electric

"DoN. Nichols" writes:

Also, I plan on using 10-3 wire and installing a 30 amp recepticle for
a futre air compressor. Also a 50 amp wire for my lincoln buzz box. Is
it ok to put both those double pole breakers on the same side of the
panel as my 100 amp main? Or will that be some type of "imbalance"?



2) Are your air compressor and buzz box 120 VAC or 240 VAC
devices? If they are 240 VAC devices, using dual breakers, then
no matter where in the box you put them, they will be drawing
half from each buss.

If the devices are both 120 VAC devices, then if you put two
breakers adjacent to each other, they will be drawing from
two different busses, so no problem.



Graphically, it looks like this:

A B
B A
A B
B A
A B
B A
A B
B A

So that a 240v breaker will get A & B no matter where it's placed;
and opposite 120v breakers [across a row] & adjacent ones will be on
different phases.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 11:27 pm, Gerald Miller wrote:
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 03:31:33 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

wrote:
stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

This is not a comment on the job in the photos, but is anybody else
terrified when they see romex and plastic boxes?

What scared me was when I replaced a light switch in my BiL's mobile
in Florida and found a type of wiring more suited to low grade signal
wiring; no box as such, just a plastic cover over the back of the
switch which was held in place in the hole in the paneling by bend
down metal tabs, with the wires punched down in slots like telephone
wiring. It did specify no more than two wires per slot. Imagine
something like this combined with Aluminium wiring!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

-Are plastic boxes ok and allowed ot use in a detatched building if the
-walls are left open?

If the walls are open, you should use at least a plastic box made to attach
to PCV conduit, and run the wire in PVC conduit. All exposed electrical
wiring should be in conduit.

On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 03:31:33 +0000, Cydrome Leader wrote:
stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a little
trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful advice is
appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

This is not a comment on the job in the photos, but is anybody else
terrified when they see romex and plastic boxes?

Nah - just connect the bare (or green) wire to the green screw on the
outlet.

Cheers!
Rich

On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 00:02:36 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:

The current Democratic party has lost its ideological basis for existence.
- It is NOT fiscally responsible.
- It is NOT ethically honorable.
- It has started wars based on lies.
- It does not support the well-being of americans - only billionaires. -
It has suppresed constitutional guaranteed liberties. - It has foisted a
liar as president upon America. - It has violated US national sovereignty
in trade treaties. - It has refused to enforce the national borders.

...It no longer has valid reasons to exist.


Huh. Imagine my surprise - you could substitute "Republican" for "Democrat"
up there and the whole schmear would still be totally accurate.

Sigh.
Rich

I also plan on putting those two outlets near my overhead garage door
so I can get my welder and things outside if I need to weld on
somethign there. Is there a certain distance it needs to be away from
he door?

With local code questions like this, it's best to call your local inspection
office. They'll probably be able to answer questions over the phone. As long
as you plan to *get* an inspection, there's no down side to calling and
asking questions. The inspectors don't ask for your name and address, or
anything like that. It's to their (the community's) advantage to give
straightforward answers to anyone who calls.

Regarding insurance and such, you might ask your insurance company if there
is any clause that would void your policy if the work is done by an unbonded,
unlicensed installer (you). If you don't ask about this, you're not gaining
anything. Just like car insurance, no one cares who did the work until a
claim is filed. *Then* the questions start, fast n' furious. Best to know now
what your insurance is OK with. At worst, you can get a licensed electrician
to look over your work and sign off on it, for a fee.

Good luck.

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 17:36:33 -0700 (PDT), stryped wrote:

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/


My question would be:-
Are you proposing to insulate between the studs?
If so, is the cable size correctly calculated for being inside insulation
instead of free-air or clipped-to-surface?

The difference in current carrying capacity for the two situations can be
1:1.5 depending on cable size.


Mark Rand
RTFM

On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 16:14:42 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote:


Graphically, it looks like this:

A B
B A
A B
B A
A B
B A
A B
B A

So that a 240v breaker will get A & B no matter where it's placed;
and opposite 120v breakers [across a row] & adjacent ones will be on
different phases.

Close... Most panels go


1 breaker A A breaker 2
3 breaker B B breaker 4
5 breaker A A breaker 6
7 breaker B B breaker 8
9 breaker A A breaker 10
11 breaker B B breaker 12

Some call for trhe numbering to go the other way, but the busses are
usually that way.

Now here's where it gets wierd - this only counts for 1" wide "full
size" breakers. When you get into the 'splits' (GE Thin) and Tandems
and Quads, you can have two breakers next to each other on the Same
Phase. So you have to stop and think.

Rule: You have to READ and Understand the Label on the panel.
They've done many odd things through the years.

There are a few wierd ones - like the Square D 6-breaker that is
horizontal, and only has one 240V space in the middle where you get A
abd B phase under one breaker...

breaker A
breaker A
breaker A } 240V Breaker
breaker B } here only
breaker B
breaker B

-- Bruce --

On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 00:18:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2009-09-08, stryped wrote:

[ ... ]

Also, my neutals are in the neutral bus bar and my grounds are in the
grounding buss bar. The picture may be deceptive because the panel is
upside down. (Read my previous postings). My panel said to mount it
upside down if it was going to be bottom fed.

To me -- it looks as though you are ignoring the real ground
buss bar, and using a second neutral buss bar intended for the neutrals
of cables connected to the breakers on the left as you have it mounted.

Yes, that's true, but you know what? It doesn't matter. He has it connected
properly: the green bonding screw is in place on the bar on the left (bonding
that bar to the case and making it effectively a grounding bar), and there is
*no* bonding jumper between that bar and the bar on the right, where he has
the neutrals connected.

It may be a bit odd... but it's electrically correct.

Stryped, don't be surprised if the electrical inspector makes you move all
those grounding wires from the bar where you have them, to the uninsulated bar
on the far left. That's where they're really supposed to be, but the way you
have it wired now *is* Code-compliant.

You can not mix grounds and neutrals anywhere else than the main
disconnect point of the house, usually an "all-in-one" service panel -
meter, main and distribution breakers all in one can.

If you have a Meter Main outside, and a seperate Main Panel inside,
even there you have to keep the safety ground and neutral bars
electrically seperate. Same thing with any sub-panels downstream of
the main service.

The whole reason being, if the Neutral wire goes open you want to
know about it. If they are tied at the panels, the Ground will carry
the Neutral loads till it fails too...

Meanwhile, someone can easily get fried because the safety ground
has been pulled hot by all the Neutral load voltages it is carrying.
The safety ground is ONLY supposed to see current in case of a fault.

-- Bruce --

On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 05:25:08 -0700 (PDT), stryped
wrote:

On Sep 8, 11:27*pm, Gerald Miller wrote:
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 03:31:33 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

wrote:
stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

This is not a comment on the job in the photos, but is anybody else
terrified when they see romex and plastic boxes?

What scared me was when I replaced a light switch in my BiL's mobile
in Florida and found a type of wiring more suited to low grade signal
wiring; no box as such, just a plastic cover over the back of the
switch which was held in place in the hole in the paneling by bend
down metal tabs, with the wires punched down in slots like telephone
wiring. It did specify no more than two wires per slot. Imagine
something like this combined with Aluminium wiring!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Are plastic boxes ok and allowed ot use in a detatched building if the
walls are left open?

Yes - but only if you are using solvent-welded plastic conduit
between the boxes. And that's a pain in the butt to work with - the
only time you do that is on a boathouse or other Wet Location. Or you
are putting the plastic conduit inside a block or brick wall. Poured
concrete floor slab, etc.

Romex can NOT be left in an exposed garage or outbuilding wall that is
not finished, it is not protected from damage.

Plastic boxes are rarely used for Flex conduit or BX/MC cable in an
exposed wall situation like that, you use steel 4S boxes and either
raised surface covers (Raco 902 or eq.) or mud rings and regular
plates. And the prices are about the same.

I've reworked a wood framed house in exposed plastic conduit like
that, but this house was the exception to the rule - built up on
pilings 10' over the mean high-tide line of the beach in Malibu. When
they got Plus Tides on full moons, the bottom of the house got
splashed with salt water from hitting the concrete septic tank
partially buried in the sand. I doubt you have to deal with that...

Flat roof and exposed wood and beam ceilings, so all the circuits
extending from the main panel over to the various bedrooms and kitchen
circuits went under the floor. Originally done in EMT "because it's
legal..." (but not very smart) when we got there it was exposed wires
and a few rust flakes... Had to redo all the Home Runs.

* * * * * *

Oh, and you mentioned elsewhere using OSB for the ceiling or walls of
your new shop area - DONT. Drywall is fire resistant when properly
primed and painted, OSB most assuredly isn't.

You'll be welding at 8 PM and quit to go to bed, a spark will fly
into a corner and smolder for hours, and at 2 AM you wake up to find
the garage fully involved. Obviously, this is a problem...

-- Bruce --

On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 00:02:36 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 03:31:33 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

This is not a comment on the job in the photos, but is anybody else
terrified when they see romex and plastic boxes?


No. Should we be?

Yes, you should. Even if he can get away with doing it that way
doesn't make it 'right' or proper workmanship.

Because you and I grew up in urban areas with fairly stringent (but
equitable) building codes, and good enforcement, so you know Right and
Wrong when you see it.

For a ranch or a cabin in a rural area where the Rancher or Farm
Hands do all the wiring, they only worry about expediency and nobody
ever checks up on them, you'll see some really odd ****...

But Pure Stupidity tends to be self-correcting, especially if they
are a half-hour drive (or more) away from the closest fire station,
and they have to deal with the results of their own errors...

If you hang your shingle as an Electrician (or a General who does
his own Specialty work rather than sub it out), you have to really
know what you are doing...

How the Codes work and WHY they are written the way they are -
Deconstruction is important. Because when you need to do something
that isn't explicitly covered by the existing Code rules, you can mix
and match different practices and materials from the existing sections
to make the end product safe.

(But you have to be able to defend your decisions and methods. Not
difficult if you understand what you did, and it isn't just working by
rote - "Go to the Freezer, Get the Box.")

-- Bruce --

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:03:57 +0100, Mark Rand
wrote:

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 17:36:33 -0700 (PDT), stryped wrote:

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/


My question would be:-
Are you proposing to insulate between the studs?
If so, is the cable size correctly calculated for being inside insulation
instead of free-air or clipped-to-surface?

The difference in current carrying capacity for the two situations can be
1:1.5 depending on cable size.


Mark Rand
RTFM

There's already a big derate built into the Code for that on branch
circuit uses. If you look it up on the load charts, technically #12
THHN is good for 30 to 35 amps or so (not going to look it up now) -
but by Code you can only feed it at 20A.

Same thing with #14 and #10.

You do have to worry about it for larger circuits, but that is the
time you are mathing it all out anyway.

Stryped: Get someone local to come in and critique your work - get a
building permit and the local inspector will be glad to do it for you.

If you don't want the hassles, get a local electrician and a case of
good beer to entice him over.

-- Bruce --

On Sep 7, 8:36*pm, stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

I also don't see a grounding wire going to a ground rod.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 09:23:43 -0600, Steve Ackman wrote:
14:36:10 -0700, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian,
On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 00:02:36 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:

The current Democratic party has lost its ideological basis for
existence. - It is NOT fiscally responsible.
- It is NOT ethically honorable.
- It has started wars based on lies.
- It does not support the well-being of americans - only billionaires.
- It has suppresed constitutional guaranteed liberties. - It has
foisted a liar as president upon America. - It has violated US national
sovereignty in trade treaties. - It has refused to enforce the national
borders.

...It no longer has valid reasons to exist.

Huh. Imagine my surprise - you could substitute "Republican" for
"Democrat" up there and the whole schmear would still be totally
accurate.

Republicrats, Demopublicans.
Tomato, Tomahto.

;-)

Thanks!
Rich

Jesse wrote:
On Sep 7, 8:36 pm, stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

I also don't see a grounding wire going to a ground rod.


The sole ground rod should be at the service entrance panel. Multiple
rods can create ground loops.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 17:27:47 -0400, Stuart Wheaton wrote:
Jesse wrote:
On Sep 7, 8:36 pm, stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful advice
is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

I also don't see a grounding wire going to a ground rod.

The sole ground rod should be at the service entrance panel. Multiple
rods can create ground loops.

Multiple rods can give you a better earth ground, but, of course, they
ALL have to lead to the one "main" grounding point.

Cheers!
Rich

jk wrote in
:

Charles U Farley wrote:



That's some F'd up panel design.
Shows you don't get involved with this much.


Actually you shouldn't assume. It's my day job to install and maintain
this stuff. Unlike some places it's a restricted trade here so be
assured I have the training and experience.
There may be some differences in jurisdictions but AFIK the CEC and NEC
treat bonding of grounded conductors quite similarily. My incredulity
at seeing a design such as this is more from knowing how uneducated
people can screw it up than inexperience with this particular panel
brand, which is in fact not a common brand here.

Why make a panel with a insulated bus on
one side and make it suitable for grounds with a bonding screw then
stick a ground only strip beside it. Pull the screw out and what
happens, it floats?

That's because NOT EVERY PANEL IS AT A SERVICE ENTRANCE.

THis panel is designed so that it can be used as a downstream panel,
where the neutral is NOT allowed to be bonded to ground in the panel.

I am aware of the differences for treating grounded conductors (see day
job statement above) in non service entrance panels vs. service entrance
panels.

The question remanins though. What happens to that insulated terminal
strip on the left hand side when the green screw is pulled?
Previously it was stated that this strip is NOT jumpered to the other
neutral strip. Is this incorrect? This one point seems to be where I
find the design quite odd.

Still seems silly to put grounding conductors there when there is a
grounding strip on the can right beside it..... service entrance panel
or not.

This is simple stuff if the hardware is designed the way we make them
north of the 49th.
GroundING conductors on the metal enclosure.
GroundED conductors on an insulated terminal strip - one on each side
jumpered together for convenience in routing the conductors.
Bonding screw or strap from the 'neutral' strip to the case. Pull the
bonding screw out and throw it away if you choose to use a combination
panel for non service entrance.
Panels without main breakers have no means to join the neutral to
ground.
Wires go to the same locations regardless if it's service entrance or
not, only the bonding screw changes.

Charles U Farley wrote:



That's some F'd up panel design.
Shows you don't get involved with this much.

Why make a panel with a insulated bus on
one side and make it suitable for grounds with a bonding screw then stick a
ground only strip beside it. Pull the screw out and what happens, it
floats?

That's because NOT EVERY PANEL IS AT A SERVICE ENTRANCE.

THis panel is designed so that it can be used as a downstream panel,
where the neutral is NOT allowed to be bonded to ground in the panel.


Hey it's isolated ground ready. Sometime I actually wish for that,
but not something that should be available at the average home center.

So if you were to enter a cable on that side and you for some reason chose
to have that mystery buss bonded to ground instead of jumped to neutral you
have to wrap the 'neutral' wires all the way around to the other side of
the panel to hit the neutral bar?

Every major brand in current production I have seen has a neutral bus on
each side. Who makes this thing anyway? I can't quite make out the name
on the breakers.

Some do, some don't, and I suspect it is largely a matter of cost.



jk