On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:48:36 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:38:32 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:09:02 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says
on
a lot of things.

Steve

He's obviously smarter than you.

What is that supposed to mean?

It means the socialist canuk just insulted you.


I feel better. I was feeling somewhat insulted, but now that I know it was
from a Canadian, I feel nothing at all.

Steve

Funny how that happens eh? Like being called a DooDoo Head by a
retarded person.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:09:28 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:48:36 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:38:32 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:09:02 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says
on
a lot of things.

Steve

He's obviously smarter than you.

What is that supposed to mean?

It means the socialist canuk just insulted you.


I feel better. I was feeling somewhat insulted, but now that I know it was
from a Canadian, I feel nothing at all.

Steve

Funny how that happens eh? Like being called a DooDoo Head by a
retarded person.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""


Just remember that before 9-11 Canada was the only country to launch a
successful attack on the American mainland.(for which you can thank us
for your "white house" anf 50 years ago we built the CF105 "arrow"
which the American government was so scared og the convinced old Deif
to cancel it.

We Canuks are not ALL hewirs of wood and haulers of water.

The Blackberry is made in my home town - here in "silicon valley
North"

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 22:21:17 -0500, wrote:

Just remember that before 9-11 Canada was the only country to launch a
successful attack on the American mainland.(for which you can thank us
for your "white house" anf 50 years ago we built the CF105 "arrow"
which the American government was so scared og the convinced old Deif
to cancel it.

We Canuks are not ALL hewirs of wood and haulers of water.

The Blackberry is made in my home town - here in "silicon valley
North"

Oh relax, wouldja? We just need someone handy and close by to blame
when things go wrong. And it's no fun to start an argument with
someone who actually thinks you are mad at them.

If it's any consolation, you can have William Shatner back.

-- Bruce --

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:25:49 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 22:21:17 -0500, wrote:

Just remember that before 9-11 Canada was the only country to launch a
successful attack on the American mainland.(for which you can thank us
for your "white house" anf 50 years ago we built the CF105 "arrow"
which the American government was so scared og the convinced old Deif
to cancel it.

We Canuks are not ALL hewirs of wood and haulers of water.

The Blackberry is made in my home town - here in "silicon valley
North"

Oh relax, wouldja? We just need someone handy and close by to blame
when things go wrong. And it's no fun to start an argument with
someone who actually thinks you are mad at them.

If it's any consolation, you can have William Shatner back.

-- Bruce --


ROFLMAO!!

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:09:28 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:48:36 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:38:32 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:09:02 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was
during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says
on
a lot of things.

Steve

He's obviously smarter than you.

What is that supposed to mean?

It means the socialist canuk just insulted you.


I feel better. I was feeling somewhat insulted, but now that I know it
was
from a Canadian, I feel nothing at all.

Steve

Funny how that happens eh? Like being called a DooDoo Head by a
retarded person.

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""


Just remember that before 9-11 Canada was the only country to launch a
successful attack on the American mainland.(for which you can thank us
for your "white house" anf 50 years ago we built the CF105 "arrow"
which the American government was so scared og the convinced old Deif
to cancel it.

We Canuks are not ALL hewirs of wood and haulers of water.

The Blackberry is made in my home town - here in "silicon valley
North"

Whatever. Wait patiently, and your focus will eventually return. Or not.

Edward A. Falk wrote:

In article ,
ATP* wrote:


The three-phase grid that was being put in place at the end of Edison's life
has not changed that much- it certainly has changed a lot since Edison's
first power plant on Pearl Street and DC distribution system.


For the record, the last piece of the DC grid was just shut down a few
months ago.



I remember renting a student apartment in Boston circa 1955 and finding
out to my horror that the place was still on DC.

I was a "Hi-Fi" buff at the time and couldn't put up without AC to run
all my gear, and I didn't want to try and get by with the vibrator DC to
AC inverters available back then.

So, I moved out the day after I moved in, and the landlord was nice
about it.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

I remember renting a student apartment in Boston circa 1955 and finding
out to my horror that the place was still on DC.

I was a "Hi-Fi" buff at the time and couldn't put up without AC to run
all my gear, and I didn't want to try and get by with the vibrator DC to
AC inverters available back then.

So, I moved out the day after I moved in, and the landlord was nice
about it.
My God, what COULD you run off DC back then? Let's see, most vacuum
cleaners had universal motors and would probably run on DC, I guess
smaller TVs and table radios would run on DC, but that might be about
it! OK, toasters and mixmasters would probably work, too. Window fans,
electric clocks, and all sorts of other stuff would not, and some of it
would be pretty catastrophic! As for Hi-Fi gear, you'd be stuck with a
hand-crank Victrola! I guess people were more aware of this stuff back
in '55 than today, but I would suspect a LOT of folks would balk at DC
only even back then. A lot of places had multiple supplies, both DC AND
AC back then, as not all appliances could handle AC, in areas that had a
long Edison history. Then, you just had to be careful what you plugged
into where.

Jon

Jon Elson wrote:


I remember renting a student apartment in Boston circa 1955 and
finding out to my horror that the place was still on DC.

I was a "Hi-Fi" buff at the time and couldn't put up without AC to run
all my gear, and I didn't want to try and get by with the vibrator DC
to AC inverters available back then.

So, I moved out the day after I moved in, and the landlord was nice
about it.

My God, what COULD you run off DC back then?

Light bulbs fer sure. G

Let's see, most vacuum
cleaners had universal motors and would probably run on DC, I guess
smaller TVs and table radios would run on DC, but that might be about
it!


Many small radios back then were referred to by the cognizanti as "AC/DC
Sets". They had no power transformers in them and they used tubes with
various filament voltages like 12, 35 and 50. The typical 5 tube set
would run all the tube filaments in series from 120 volts (AC or DC, it
didn't matter which.) I can't recall whether the line cord was polarity
sensitive and had to be plugged in the "right way" to get electrons to
flow through the rectifier tube (usually a 35Z5 ?). Perhaps some antique
radio buff will check in here on that.

But, I don't recall ever seeing a TV which would work off DC line voltage.

OK, toasters and mixmasters would probably work, too. Window fans,
electric clocks, and all sorts of other stuff would not, and some of it
would be pretty catastrophic! As for Hi-Fi gear, you'd be stuck with a
hand-crank Victrola! I guess people were more aware of this stuff back
in '55 than today, but I would suspect a LOT of folks would balk at DC
only even back then. A lot of places had multiple supplies, both DC AND
AC back then, as not all appliances could handle AC, in areas that had a
long Edison history. Then, you just had to be careful what you plugged
into where.

Jon

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.

jeff_wisnia wrote:
Many small radios back then were referred to by the cognizanti as "AC/DC
Sets". They had no power transformers in them and they used tubes with
various filament voltages like 12, 35 and 50. The typical 5 tube set
would run all the tube filaments in series from 120 volts (AC or DC, it
didn't matter which.) I can't recall whether the line cord was polarity
sensitive and had to be plugged in the "right way" to get electrons to
flow through the rectifier tube (usually a 35Z5 ?). Perhaps some antique
radio buff will check in here on that.
Jeff
Yep! I worked on many an "AC/DC" radio back in the 40s 50s.
Among all the sets I saw, none had any kind of keying on the
plug. I don't think Keyed recepticals were even invented yet
then. I never had a DC service but I'm sure if you had on
you would have known about reversing the plug if it didn't
come on.
...Lew...
A PS What good is a "spell checker" see above recepticals
if the choices a

sceptically
skeptically
skeptical
aseptically
preceptively

Not a one starts with a r.
One of things I just LOVE about Bill Gates and his abominations.

On Aug 21, 10:39*pm, Lewis Hartswick wrote:
jeff_wisnia wrote:
Many small radios back then were referred to by the cognizanti as "AC/DC
Sets". They had no power transformers in them and they used tubes with
various filament voltages like 12, 35 and 50. The typical 5 tube set
would run all the tube filaments in series from 120 volts (AC or DC, it
didn't matter which.) I can't recall whether the line cord was polarity
sensitive and had to be plugged in the "right way" to get electrons to
flow through the rectifier tube (usually a 35Z5 ?). Perhaps some antique
radio buff will check in here on that.
Jeff

Yep! I worked on many an "AC/DC" radio back in the 40s 50s.
Among all the sets I saw, none had any kind of keying on the
plug. I don't think Keyed recepticals were even invented yet
then. I never had a DC service but I'm sure if you had on
you would have known about reversing the plug if it didn't
come on.
* * ...Lew...
A PS What good is a "spell checker" see above recepticals
if the choices a

sceptically
skeptically
skeptical
aseptically
preceptively

Not a one starts with a r.
One of things I just LOVE about Bill Gates and his abominations.

Please, then, write better software. the masses will flock to your
door.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:48:23 -0400, jeff_wisnia
wrote:
Jon Elson wrote:

I remember renting a student apartment in Boston circa 1955 and
finding out to my horror that the place was still on DC.

I was a "Hi-Fi" buff at the time and couldn't put up without AC to run
all my gear, and I didn't want to try and get by with the vibrator DC
to AC inverters available back then.

So, I moved out the day after I moved in, and the landlord was nice
about it.

My God, what COULD you run off DC back then?

Light bulbs fer sure. G

Anything that was a straight resistive load works on DC - toasters,
hot-plates, coffeepots.

Now if the hotplate has a thermostat and that switch wasn't rated to
break DC, you could have some excitement...

Let's see, most vacuum cleaners had universal motors and would
probably run on DC.

Universal Motors with brushes, yes. Early vacuum cleaners, early
table fans, early mixers and blenders.

Induction, synchronous, and shaded-pole motors, no. Most clocks have
a synchronous motor, AC only. Even the Simplex Master Clock systems
are out, they had the hourly sync pulse but the indivdual clocks still
run on synchronous motors.

Now they could use a Self-Winding style clock that has a universal
motor to wind a spring for a mechanical escapement movement, but that
would tend to be inaccurate. And those movements made noise when they
rewound every so often, which would be as loud as heck in a silent
room at 3 AM.

I guess smaller TVs and table radios would
run on DC, but that might be about it!

Many small radios back then were referred to by the cognizanti as "AC/DC
Sets". They had no power transformers in them and they used tubes with
various filament voltages like 12, 35 and 50. The typical 5 tube set
would run all the tube filaments in series from 120 volts (AC or DC, it
didn't matter which.) I can't recall whether the line cord was polarity
sensitive and had to be plugged in the "right way" to get electrons to
flow through the rectifier tube (usually a 35Z5 ?). Perhaps some antique
radio buff will check in here on that.

That's the classic "5-Tube AC/DC Superhet (-rodyne) Radio" design.
I owned several through the years. You can Google up more
information using that term than you can handle - they even had AGC on
the incoming signal.

The trick to putting all the filaments in series is they all needed a
common filament /current/ so they all worked in series. And the other
trick was not needing more than 120V B+ plate voltage, so they didn't
need a high voltage section that requires a vibrator or dynamotor for
DC. They developed a set of tubes specifically for the usage.

But, I don't recall ever seeing a TV which would work off DC line voltage.

Not without a vibrator or a dyanmotor (or a power-transistor driven
Inverter or DC-DC Converter in new gear) you wouldn't - you need a few
thousand volts of B+ to get the electron stram to go from the gun
through the picture tube to light the phosphors...

And AFAIK all the old sets have used the line frerquency as a
reference to get the Vertical and Horizontal Hold cues from. They
added the Colorburst crystal to get the timing for color TV, but the
utility AC frequency still gave a nice stable sync reference.

-- Bruce --

In article , rangerssuck wrote:
On Aug 21, 10:39=A0pm, Lewis Hartswick wrote:
[...]
One of things I just LOVE about Bill Gates and his abominations.

Please, then, write better software. the masses will flock to your
door.

No, they won't. Better software already exists, and has for a long time,
yet it still has only a small fraction of the market.

The masses will flock to whatever has the most effective marketing.

On 2009-08-22, Bruce L Bergman wrote:
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:48:23 -0400, jeff_wisnia
wrote:
Jon Elson wrote:

[ ... ]

My God, what COULD you run off DC back then?

Light bulbs fer sure. G

Anything that was a straight resistive load works on DC - toasters,
hot-plates, coffeepots.

Now if the hotplate has a thermostat and that switch wasn't rated to
break DC, you could have some excitement...

Well ... hotplates were purely resistive loads, so you would
have the excitement that breaking an inductive load could produce. The
thermostats typically had fast click action, so the arc should be rather
quickly self quenching.

[ ... ]

Now they could use a Self-Winding style clock that has a universal
motor to wind a spring for a mechanical escapement movement, but that
would tend to be inaccurate. And those movements made noise when they
rewound every so often, which would be as loud as heck in a silent
room at 3 AM.

I remember a car which had that -- a loud KLUNK ever ten minutes
or so.

I guess smaller TVs and table radios would
run on DC, but that might be about it!

Many small radios back then were referred to by the cognizanti as "AC/DC
Sets". They had no power transformers in them and they used tubes with
various filament voltages like 12, 35 and 50. The typical 5 tube set
would run all the tube filaments in series from 120 volts (AC or DC, it
didn't matter which.) I can't recall whether the line cord was polarity
sensitive and had to be plugged in the "right way" to get electrons to
flow through the rectifier tube (usually a 35Z5 ?). Perhaps some antique
radio buff will check in here on that.

That's the classic "5-Tube AC/DC Superhet (-rodyne) Radio" design.
I owned several through the years. You can Google up more
information using that term than you can handle - they even had AGC on
the incoming signal.

An amazing amount done with very few tubes.

The trick to putting all the filaments in series is they all needed a
common filament /current/ so they all worked in series.

I've seen some with ballast resistors so the total filament
voltage need not reach the full 110 V. (120 V was fairly uncommon then.
Over the years it has marched from 110 to 115, 117, and now 120.
Squeeze a bit more power through the wires at a given current.

And the other
trick was not needing more than 120V B+ plate voltage, so they didn't
need a high voltage section that requires a vibrator or dynamotor for
DC. They developed a set of tubes specifically for the usage.

Yes -- a voltage doubler isn't going to work without AC -- let
alone a transformer. :-)

But, I don't recall ever seeing a TV which would work off DC line voltage.

Not without a vibrator or a dyanmotor (or a power-transistor driven
Inverter or DC-DC Converter in new gear) you wouldn't - you need a few
thousand volts of B+ to get the electron stram to go from the gun
through the picture tube to light the phosphors...

But that was produced by an inverter of sorts anyway. The
flyback transformer (which produced the sawtooth wave for the yoke to
scan the beam across the CRT) also was a very efficient high voltage
step-up transformer. Yes, it took yet another tube to rectify the high
voltage. It's filament was run from a single turn around the flyback
transformer at the high voltage end of the winding.

And AFAIK all the old sets have used the line frerquency as a
reference to get the Vertical and Horizontal Hold cues from. They
added the Colorburst crystal to get the timing for color TV, but the
utility AC frequency still gave a nice stable sync reference.

Yes -- that helped. But I have used B&W monitors powered from
12V DC -- (transistors of course) so tube based 120 VDC should not be
that difficult to achieve even with tubes.

And for the extra tube count -- after you hit the limit of 6V
filaments in series (20 tubes) you could always set up a second parallel
filament string of half the tubes.

The main thing back then was that transformers were cheaper than
trying to design a tube system which would run from 110 VDC and be
stable through the gain drift as the tubes aged. The design was simpler
with transformers. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2009-08-22, Bruce L Bergman wrote:
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:48:23 -0400, jeff_wisnia
wrote:
Jon Elson wrote:

[ ... ]

My God, what COULD you run off DC back then?

Light bulbs fer sure. G

Anything that was a straight resistive load works on DC - toasters,
hot-plates, coffeepots.

Now if the hotplate has a thermostat and that switch wasn't rated to
break DC, you could have some excitement...

Well ... hotplates were purely resistive loads, so you would
have the excitement that breaking an inductive load could produce. The
thermostats typically had fast click action, so the arc should be rather
quickly self quenching.

[ ... ]

Now they could use a Self-Winding style clock that has a universal
motor to wind a spring for a mechanical escapement movement, but that
would tend to be inaccurate. And those movements made noise when they
rewound every so often, which would be as loud as heck in a silent
room at 3 AM.

I remember a car which had that -- a loud KLUNK ever ten minutes
or so.

I guess smaller TVs and table radios would
run on DC, but that might be about it!

Many small radios back then were referred to by the cognizanti as "AC/DC
Sets". They had no power transformers in them and they used tubes with
various filament voltages like 12, 35 and 50. The typical 5 tube set
would run all the tube filaments in series from 120 volts (AC or DC, it
didn't matter which.) I can't recall whether the line cord was polarity
sensitive and had to be plugged in the "right way" to get electrons to
flow through the rectifier tube (usually a 35Z5 ?). Perhaps some antique
radio buff will check in here on that.

That's the classic "5-Tube AC/DC Superhet (-rodyne) Radio" design.
I owned several through the years. You can Google up more
information using that term than you can handle - they even had AGC on
the incoming signal.

An amazing amount done with very few tubes.

The trick to putting all the filaments in series is they all needed a
common filament /current/ so they all worked in series.

I've seen some with ballast resistors so the total filament
voltage need not reach the full 110 V. (120 V was fairly uncommon then.
Over the years it has marched from 110 to 115, 117, and now 120.
Squeeze a bit more power through the wires at a given current.

And the other
trick was not needing more than 120V B+ plate voltage, so they didn't
need a high voltage section that requires a vibrator or dynamotor for
DC. They developed a set of tubes specifically for the usage.

Yes -- a voltage doubler isn't going to work without AC -- let
alone a transformer. :-)

But, I don't recall ever seeing a TV which would work off DC line voltage.

Not without a vibrator or a dyanmotor (or a power-transistor driven
Inverter or DC-DC Converter in new gear) you wouldn't - you need a few
thousand volts of B+ to get the electron stram to go from the gun
through the picture tube to light the phosphors...

But that was produced by an inverter of sorts anyway. The
flyback transformer (which produced the sawtooth wave for the yoke to
scan the beam across the CRT) also was a very efficient high voltage
step-up transformer. Yes, it took yet another tube to rectify the high
voltage. It's filament was run from a single turn around the flyback
transformer at the high voltage end of the winding.

And AFAIK all the old sets have used the line frerquency as a
reference to get the Vertical and Horizontal Hold cues from. They
added the Colorburst crystal to get the timing for color TV, but the
utility AC frequency still gave a nice stable sync reference.

Yes -- that helped. But I have used B&W monitors powered from
12V DC -- (transistors of course) so tube based 120 VDC should not be
that difficult to achieve even with tubes.

And for the extra tube count -- after you hit the limit of 6V
filaments in series (20 tubes) you could always set up a second parallel
filament string of half the tubes.

The main thing back then was that transformers were cheaper than
trying to design a tube system which would run from 110 VDC and be
stable through the gain drift as the tubes aged. The design was simpler
with transformers. :-)


Transformerless TV sets used a half wave voltage doubler to get 250
to 300 volts DC from the AC power line. They didn't work on DC. I
serviced them through the '60s and '70s.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Transformerless TV sets used a half wave voltage doubler to get 250
to 300 volts DC from the AC power line. They didn't work on DC. I
serviced them through the '60s and '70s.

AH HA! Those GE sets with two Selenium rectifiers across
the front of the chassis. :-)
...lew...

Lewis Hartswick wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Transformerless TV sets used a half wave voltage doubler to get 250
to 300 volts DC from the AC power line. They didn't work on DC. I
serviced them through the '60s and '70s.

AH HA! Those GE sets with two Selenium rectifiers across
the front of the chassis. :-)
...lew...


Don't forget the electrolytic rated for high ripple current, between
them. Lot of sets used a 160 uF, 250 VDC electrolytic in that part of
the doubler. They liked to vent, or rupture when they failed. I changed
a lot of them, in the '60s and '70s. We carried at lest six in each
service truck.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!