"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared the
end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the same
as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually worked
for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised bonus.
But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution system
were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before he more or
less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say that Obama is
stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not an informed
statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he says
on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and capacity
of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money, there's a lot
of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and tougher,
allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the task in the
economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a form
that served well in the last century, when electricity was produced mostly
near the point of consumption, and when the imperative was meeting demand,
no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local officials or
environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes expansion difficult -
even when the money for it is available. And some experts argue that in the
absence of a broader national effort to encourage cleaner fuels, even the
smartest grid will do little to reduce consumption of fuels that contribute
to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze out
generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running on
natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from dirtier fuels
and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or find some other way
to limit power generation from coal, these experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit to
federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote areas where
renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in loan guarantees
to companies for power lines and renewable energy projects. The bill also
includes $4.4 billion for the installation of smart meters - which,
administration officials say, in combination with other investments in a
smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to 4 percent - and $100
million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across the
United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts argue
that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond upgrading and
expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say, was set up primarily
to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a steady flow of
electricity to customers. It was not intended to incorporate power from
remote sources like solar panels and windmills, whose output fluctuates with
weather conditions - variability that demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate demand
at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example, by allowing
businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the local utility
turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses, when hourly prices
rise." (more on NYT site)

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:53:48 -0500, the infamous "Buerste"
scrawled the following:

Ed sed:
Yeah, I thought you did good there. For a conservative, that was a
veritable _War and Peace_.

Now we'll have to let you rest for a week so you don't tire yourself out.
d8-)

No rest for me for a long time. My new condo has had to have every square
inch ripped out, tiled, dry walled, floored or at least painted. The
granite countertop gets installed tomorrow at 9, I just got back from
re-installing the dishwasher after the flooring went in under it. I've got
stain under my nails, plaster dust in my hair, sawdust in my shoes, paint on
my clothes, etc.

Next time, try a pair of latex or nitrile gloves for staining (what
did you ruin, Tawm?) and a Tyvek jumpsuit (rotsa ruck) for paint work.

I hope you wore a respirator, at least for the sanding of the mud if
not the flooring cutting. That manufactured flooring crap sure dulls
miter saw blades quickly, doesn't it?

--
I'm still waiting for another sublime, transcendent flash of adequacy.
--Winnie of RCM

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually worked
for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised bonus.
But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution system
were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before he more or
less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say that Obama
is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not an informed
statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he says
on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and tougher,
allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the task in the
economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a form
that served well in the last century, when electricity was produced mostly
near the point of consumption, and when the imperative was meeting demand,
no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local officials
or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes expansion
difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some experts
argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to encourage
cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to reduce consumption
of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running on
natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from dirtier
fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or find some
other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit to
federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote areas
where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in loan
guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy projects. The
bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of smart meters -
which, administration officials say, in combination with other investments
in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to 4 percent - and $100
million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across the
United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say, was
set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a steady
flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to incorporate power
from remote sources like solar panels and windmills, whose output
fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that demands a far more
flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example, by
allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the local
utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses, when
hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the grid
constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Buerste" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Buerste" wrote in message
...

snip

Lame comeback Ed, I win this one with non-lame cleverness.

Yeah, I thought you did good there. For a conservative, that was a
veritable _War and Peace_.

Now we'll have to let you rest for a week so you don't tire yourself
out. d8-)



No rest for me for a long time. My new condo has had to have every
square inch ripped out, tiled, dry walled, floored or at least painted.
The granite countertop gets installed tomorrow at 9, I just got back
from re-installing the dishwasher after the flooring went in under it.
I've got stain under my nails, plaster dust in my hair, sawdust in my
shoes, paint on my clothes, etc.

It sounds like you might have been happier just buying a new one. I've
been dabbling about my 85-year-old house for 30 years now. I'm around
half done. g

--
Ed Huntress


I bought this from an estate with no relatives in-state. The place was
bought new in '75 by a couple that worked at NASA Glen. Funny thing is
they undoubtedly knew and worked with my mom there. We'll never know as
anybody that would have known has passed now. The place was on the
market for 4 months and nobody even made an offer, it needed a lot and it
needed somebody that could see what it COULD be. When I made an offer to
the estate's agent, his jaw dropped...literally! Winter was coming on
and the bills to the estate would rise. There were a few units in the
complex for sale and they just weren't selling. And, those had updates.
The offer was eventually accepted so I didn't "exactly" steal it, I
almost felt bad. I did offer the agent the job of selling the "big" house
when the market is right. If NASA Glen gets some stimulus, this house is
very close and very attractive to NASA people, there's a gaggle of them
here on these culs-de-sacs. (not a single one of my NASA neighbors
believes in AGW)

I've been working on it since early November and have had a bunch of guys
from the shop do a lot too on weekends. They like the extra cash and do
great work.

That sounds like a well-thought-out project, Tom. I hope it works out as
you plan.

--
Ed Huntress


They just installed the counter top. It's "Black Pearl" and hangs 18" into
the family room to become the breakfast knook with 4 stools. It's the
centerpiece of the house and it is breathtaking! The company used three
1/2" x 2" steel supports under the overhang. They radiused and painted the
supports and laged them into 2 x 4s that they sistered the cabinet with.
Very professional! I just happened to mention the condo work to one of my
box vendors and he just happened to have a daughter in the business. She
quoted more than $1,000 less than the next lowest quote.

I looked at quartz and I thought it looked fake and cheap, (it's NOT cheap!)
and I looked at Corian and didn't like that either. Actually, being a
form-follows-function kind of guy, a sheet of OSB would be fine with me.

The other centerpiece is the 6' x 32" Maple and Cherry butcher block
workstation that I mounted on two base cabinets that I lifted an additional
4" higher. Being 6' 4" bending over at just the wrong angle to chop an
onion is tough on the back. The big downside is it's an all-electric home,
no Viking range, no Jen-Air, no Salamander. Oh well, next home!

"Buerste" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Buerste" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Buerste" wrote in message
...

snip

Lame comeback Ed, I win this one with non-lame cleverness.

Yeah, I thought you did good there. For a conservative, that was a
veritable _War and Peace_.

Now we'll have to let you rest for a week so you don't tire yourself
out. d8-)



No rest for me for a long time. My new condo has had to have every
square inch ripped out, tiled, dry walled, floored or at least
painted. The granite countertop gets installed tomorrow at 9, I just
got back from re-installing the dishwasher after the flooring went in
under it. I've got stain under my nails, plaster dust in my hair,
sawdust in my shoes, paint on my clothes, etc.

It sounds like you might have been happier just buying a new one. I've
been dabbling about my 85-year-old house for 30 years now. I'm around
half done. g

--
Ed Huntress


I bought this from an estate with no relatives in-state. The place was
bought new in '75 by a couple that worked at NASA Glen. Funny thing is
they undoubtedly knew and worked with my mom there. We'll never know as
anybody that would have known has passed now. The place was on the
market for 4 months and nobody even made an offer, it needed a lot and
it needed somebody that could see what it COULD be. When I made an
offer to the estate's agent, his jaw dropped...literally! Winter was
coming on and the bills to the estate would rise. There were a few
units in the complex for sale and they just weren't selling. And, those
had updates. The offer was eventually accepted so I didn't "exactly"
steal it, I almost felt bad. I did offer the agent the job of selling
the "big" house when the market is right. If NASA Glen gets some
stimulus, this house is very close and very attractive to NASA people,
there's a gaggle of them here on these culs-de-sacs. (not a single one
of my NASA neighbors believes in AGW)

I've been working on it since early November and have had a bunch of
guys from the shop do a lot too on weekends. They like the extra cash
and do great work.

That sounds like a well-thought-out project, Tom. I hope it works out as
you plan.

--
Ed Huntress


They just installed the counter top. It's "Black Pearl" and hangs 18"
into the family room to become the breakfast knook with 4 stools. It's
the centerpiece of the house and it is breathtaking! The company used
three 1/2" x 2" steel supports under the overhang. They radiused and
painted the supports and laged them into 2 x 4s that they sistered the
cabinet with. Very professional! I just happened to mention the condo
work to one of my box vendors and he just happened to have a daughter in
the business. She quoted more than $1,000 less than the next lowest
quote.

I looked at quartz and I thought it looked fake and cheap, (it's NOT
cheap!) and I looked at Corian and didn't like that either. Actually,
being a form-follows-function kind of guy, a sheet of OSB would be fine
with me.

The other centerpiece is the 6' x 32" Maple and Cherry butcher block
workstation that I mounted on two base cabinets that I lifted an
additional 4" higher. Being 6' 4" bending over at just the wrong angle to
chop an onion is tough on the back. The big downside is it's an
all-electric home, no Viking range, no Jen-Air, no Salamander. Oh well,
next home!

It sounds like you'll have some nice details in there, which can make all
the difference in a cookie-cutter home like most condos. The counter top and
workstation should really make it stand out.

Watch your back, and we'll be interested to hear the details as you
progress.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 22:26:54 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared the
end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the same
as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually worked
for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised bonus.
But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution system
were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before he more or
less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say that Obama is
stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not an informed
statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he says on
a lot of things.

Steve

He's obviously smarter than you.

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. You missed my point entirely. Can you
tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve
No, but that's not what Obama said, is it?

No, it isn't and Obama is essentially correct.

JC

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before he
more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say
that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not
an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he says
on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and tougher,
allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the task in the
economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a form
that served well in the last century, when electricity was produced
mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative was meeting
demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local officials
or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes expansion
difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some experts
argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to encourage
cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to reduce
consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running on
natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from dirtier
fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or find some
other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit to
federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote areas
where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in loan
guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy projects.
The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of smart
meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with other
investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to 4
percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across the
United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say, was
set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve
No, but that's not what Obama said, is it?

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before he
more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say
that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not
an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he says
on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and tougher,
allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the task in the
economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a form
that served well in the last century, when electricity was produced
mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative was meeting
demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local officials
or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes expansion
difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some experts
argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to encourage
cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to reduce
consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running on
natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from dirtier
fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or find some
other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit to
federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote areas
where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in loan
guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy projects.
The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of smart
meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with other
investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to 4
percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across the
United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say, was
set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can find
some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:53:48 -0500, the infamous "Buerste"
scrawled the following:

Ed sed:
Yeah, I thought you did good there. For a conservative, that was a
veritable _War and Peace_.

Now we'll have to let you rest for a week so you don't tire yourself
out.
d8-)

No rest for me for a long time. My new condo has had to have every square
inch ripped out, tiled, dry walled, floored or at least painted. The
granite countertop gets installed tomorrow at 9, I just got back from
re-installing the dishwasher after the flooring went in under it. I've
got
stain under my nails, plaster dust in my hair, sawdust in my shoes, paint
on
my clothes, etc.

Next time, try a pair of latex or nitrile gloves for staining (what
did you ruin, Tawm?) and a Tyvek jumpsuit (rotsa ruck) for paint work.

I hope you wore a respirator, at least for the sanding of the mud if
not the flooring cutting. That manufactured flooring crap sure dulls
miter saw blades quickly, doesn't it?

--
I'm still waiting for another sublime, transcendent flash of adequacy.
--Winnie of RCM

Of course mom died two days after I bought 2 cases of exam gloves...the
bitch! Now I have 2,000 gloves, enough to play "doctor" with every school
girl in the neighborhood many times. ...and. no fingerprints!

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:32:31 -0500, the infamous "Buerste"
scrawled the following:

They just installed the counter top. It's "Black Pearl" and hangs 18" into
the family room to become the breakfast knook with 4 stools. It's the
centerpiece of the house and it is breathtaking! The company used three
1/2" x 2" steel supports under the overhang. They radiused and painted the
supports and laged them into 2 x 4s that they sistered the cabinet with.
Very professional! I just happened to mention the condo work to one of my
box vendors and he just happened to have a daughter in the business. She
quoted more than $1,000 less than the next lowest quote.

That's a healthy discount. Make sure she quoted everything. It sucks
to get to the end of the job and realize that they'd accidentally left
out the cost of the countertop itself. g


I looked at quartz and I thought it looked fake and cheap, (it's NOT cheap!)
and I looked at Corian and didn't like that either. Actually, being a
form-follows-function kind of guy, a sheet of OSB would be fine with me.

Stained a horrible shade and coarsely polyed, right? gag


The other centerpiece is the 6' x 32" Maple and Cherry butcher block

Pics, please!


workstation that I mounted on two base cabinets that I lifted an additional
4" higher. Being 6' 4" bending over at just the wrong angle to chop an
onion is tough on the back.

SIX four? I thought you were FIVE four. The blue dress makes you look
a whole lot shorter.


The big downside is it's an all-electric home,
no Viking range, no Jen-Air, no Salamander. Oh well, next home!

Yeah.

----------------------------------------------------------
California's 4 Seasons: Fire, Flood, Drought, & Earthquake
--------------------------------------
www.diversify.com/shades2.html * NoteSHADE(tm) Laptop Glare Guards

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 22:26:54 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the
end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same
as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually worked
for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised bonus.
But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution system
were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before he more or
less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say that Obama
is
stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not an informed
statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he says
on
a lot of things.

Steve

He's obviously smarter than you.

What is that supposed to mean?

"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say
that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not
an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a form
that served well in the last century, when electricity was produced
mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative was
meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local officials
or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes expansion
difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some experts
argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to encourage
cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to reduce
consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running
on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from dirtier
fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or find some
other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit to
federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote areas
where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in loan
guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy projects.
The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of smart
meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with other
investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to 4
percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple, and
me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me stupid, and
all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I do not think
much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter to prove us all
right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets
much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the more perfect ones here
will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it
to her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was
a contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to
say that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla
is not an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a
form that served well in the last century, when electricity was
produced mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative
was meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local
officials or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes
expansion difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some
experts argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to
encourage cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to
reduce consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running
on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from
dirtier fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or
find some other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts
say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit
to federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote
areas where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in
loan guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy
projects. The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of
smart meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with
other investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to
4 percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple, and
me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me stupid,
and all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I do not
think much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter to prove
us all right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot worse before
it gets much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the more perfect
ones here will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve

Electric power lines were finally strung in this part of rural Minnesota in
the 40's and 50's. Cities and towns quite a bit earlier.
If you want to start a serious discussion it seems wrongheaded to start the
post with childish name calling. Then go on to tell us how you explained to
your wife and two bystanders how the president must not know the history of
our electrical inventors and grid. Makes me wonder who they were laughing
at. I am just damn glad we now have a President that can speak without
making me cringe.
Steve P

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:13:37 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say
that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not
an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a form
that served well in the last century, when electricity was produced
mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative was
meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local officials
or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes expansion
difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some experts
argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to encourage
cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to reduce
consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running
on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from dirtier
fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or find some
other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit to
federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote areas
where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in loan
guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy projects.
The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of smart
meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with other
investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to 4
percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple, and
me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me stupid, and
all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I do not think
much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter to prove us all
right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets
much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the more perfect ones here
will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve

It IS going to get worse before it gets better - and that is not Mr
Obama's fault.
I'd venture to guess it would be a lot worse a lot longer with his
competitor in charge.

"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he
neared the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola
Tesla or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it
to her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him -
and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was
a contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to
say that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla
is not an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than
money, there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a
form that served well in the last century, when electricity was
produced mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative
was meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local
officials or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes
expansion difficult - even when the money for it is available. And
some experts argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to
encourage cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to
reduce consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could
squeeze out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those
running on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions
from dirtier fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity,
or find some other way to limit power generation from coal, these
experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit
to federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote
areas where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion
in loan guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy
projects. The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of
smart meters - which, administration officials say, in combination
with other investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2
percent to 4 percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain
the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide
a steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for
example, by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer
to let the local utility turn down air-conditioners in office
buildings or houses, when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple,
and me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me
stupid, and all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I
do not think much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter
to prove us all right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot
worse before it gets much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the
more perfect ones here will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve

Electric power lines were finally strung in this part of rural Minnesota
in the 40's and 50's. Cities and towns quite a bit earlier.
If you want to start a serious discussion it seems wrongheaded to start
the post with childish name calling. Then go on to tell us how you
explained to your wife and two bystanders how the president must not know
the history of our electrical inventors and grid. Makes me wonder who they
were laughing at. I am just damn glad we now have a President that can
speak without making me cringe.
Steve P

Well, uh, that uh, makes, uh, one of uh, us, uh.

Steve

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:13:37 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he
neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola
Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it
to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him -
and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was
a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to
say
that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is
not
an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than
money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a
form
that served well in the last century, when electricity was produced
mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative was
meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local
officials
or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes expansion
difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some experts
argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to encourage
cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to reduce
consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could
squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running
on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from
dirtier
fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or find some
other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit
to
federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote areas
where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in loan
guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy projects.
The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of smart
meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with
other
investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to 4
percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide
a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for
example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let
the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or
houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple, and
me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me stupid,
and
all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I do not think
much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter to prove us all
right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot worse before it
gets
much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the more perfect ones here
will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve

It IS going to get worse before it gets better - and that is not Mr
Obama's fault.
I'd venture to guess it would be a lot worse a lot longer with his
competitor in charge.

Then we are in agreement on this one. I really don't think we'll come out
of this one. Financially, socially, or politically. We are now essentially
socialists, and it will only deepen. I'm glad of two things. One, I'm
secure. Two, I have bad health and don't have to worry what's going to
happen in the future.

Steve

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the
end of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it
to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Steve


Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Now you're trolling. You're not really that dumb. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress


My plan is to adapt to the politics de jour. Just today I met with
my
entire engineering staff, all five of us. Well, the other tom isn't
an
engineer but RM. The topic was that since we are among the best in
our
industry, we should see how to best get some of the trillion bucks
they
are
throwing away. What afternoon project could we do that would qualify
for a
few million? We already have a few alternate energy ideas that could
be the
ticket. We all agree not to let politics get in the way of a
jackpot.
So,
I think it's the fool that doesn't game the system that is being
designed to
be gamed. I'll register as a Democrat, contribute to the right
lawmakers
(wink-wink), whatever it takes!

We also have a new towed sonar array that our favorite retired
aerospace
engineer has been tinkering with for years while he was building
underwater
missile systems for the DOD(Shhhh). And, an idea for resealing
joints
in
runways that reduces FOB problems. To bad defense spending will
undoubtedly
plummet.

Indeed. How about creating a new, stiff-bristled body brush? "They"
can fit 'em to street sweepers and use 'em to sweep the dead bodies
off the street after "they" destroy the U.S. (and then the world)
economy with bailouts, resulting in much of the population dying.
[Won't Paul Ehrlich and the Malthusians (sounds like a really bad
band, huh?) be happy when that day dawns?]

--
I'm still waiting for another sublime, transcendent flash of
adequacy.
--Winnie of RCM

We already make brushes to remove flesh from cadavers to harvest bone
grafts. We COULD make a set-up that would sweep up the dead bodies
AND
strip the flesh from them.

Wow. Do they work on live conservatives? They tend to have a lot of
intra-abdominal fat. The brushes would be hard to keep clean.

--
Ed Huntress


Nope, won't work on conservatives! Apparently the machine repels people
with intelligence the way like poles of a magnet repel.

Well, hell, it ought to chew up conservatives for breakfast, then. There
isn't much between their ears besides more fat.

But the sign on the front of the machine: "STOP GLOBAL WARMING"
attracts
stupid, gullible liberals. (pardon the redundancy) Another sign to use
would be: "FREE MONEY FROM YOUR GOVERNMENT". Do you see why it won't
work on conservatives?

Sure. Most of them can't read.

--
Ed Huntress

Maybe you should explain to him again the difference between education and
vocational training. Because it seems like there are really very few
educated republicans, and which he's a good example of. Training to do
business isn't an education it's vocational training. Maybe that is why
conservatives are so obdurate and stick to their simplistic values and ideas
no matter what facts come their way that contradict them. From what I read
around here you are entirely correct about their being a lot of fat between
the ears of conservatives. But then it's always been that way.

Hawke

"Hawke" wrote in message
...


snip


But the sign on the front of the machine: "STOP GLOBAL WARMING"
attracts
stupid, gullible liberals. (pardon the redundancy) Another sign to
use
would be: "FREE MONEY FROM YOUR GOVERNMENT". Do you see why it won't
work on conservatives?

Sure. Most of them can't read.

--
Ed Huntress

Maybe you should explain to him again the difference between education and
vocational training. Because it seems like there are really very few
educated republicans, and which he's a good example of.

'Never were many broadly educated Republicans or Democrats. Before WWII a
liberal college education was for the elite. Then came the GI Bill and
everyone had the chance. But not many wanted it. They wanted a better job
and more money. So they got technical or business degrees. As time went on
those subjects became more complex and demanding, and then there was no time
left for a broad education anymore.

To get a broad, classical education, a kid really has to go against the
grain. And that's been true for 50 years. Even if they go to a top-rated
liberal arts college, like Amherst, Carleton, or Williams, once they declare
a major they're in the same squirrel cage as the kids in the
mega-universities.

It produces some funny results, IMO, like an Ivy League-educated US
president who sees everything in terms of good an evil, with nothing in
between, and who doesn't know the difference between Sweden and Switzerland.
I'll never forget Bush for that one.

Training to do
business isn't an education it's vocational training. Maybe that is why
conservatives are so obdurate and stick to their simplistic values and
ideas
no matter what facts come their way that contradict them. From what I read
around here you are entirely correct about their being a lot of fat
between
the ears of conservatives. But then it's always been that way.

Hey, don't pin that on me. I was pulling Tom's chain, because he was in
trolling mode and he asked for it. d8-)

Don't get so down on conservatives. Predictable, reliably reverting to
stereotypes, they simplify the businesses of clothing design and hair
styling, boosting economies of scale. They tend to have similar
epidemiologies and they die from similar diseases, providing a good supply
of uniform cadavers for medical students to dissect -- it couldn't be better
if their livers and kidneys were color-coded. And *somebody* has to buy all
those damned pickup trucks, right?

--
Ed Huntress

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it
to her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was
a contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to
say that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla
is not an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a
form that served well in the last century, when electricity was
produced mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative
was meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local
officials or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes
expansion difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some
experts argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to
encourage cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to
reduce consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running
on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from
dirtier fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or
find some other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts
say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit
to federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote
areas where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in
loan guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy
projects. The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of
smart meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with
other investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to
4 percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple, and
me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me stupid,
and all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I do not
think much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter to prove
us all right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot worse before
it gets much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the more perfect
ones here will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve
If you're looking for discussion rather than trying to act like you're so
smart and Obama's a dumbass, read up on the plan for updating the electrical
grid and comment on whether it's a good plan or not. I'd like to see some
real quantitative analysis before beefing up the grid to subsidize
uneconomic methods of producing power. Some updating/strengthening is
definitely desirable from a reliability standpoint. But crisscrossing the
country with high-tension lines to move wind power rather than conserving
electricity doesn't make much economic or environmental sense to me. We
still have a lot of high-payback conservation options which are not being
employed.

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:51:18 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

-- Bruce --

Developed by Joseph Swan thirty years before Edison's work. He wasn't an
inventor, he was a thief.


Mark Rand
RTFM

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he
neared the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola
Tesla or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it
to her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him -
and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was
a contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to
say that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla
is not an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than
money, there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a
form that served well in the last century, when electricity was
produced mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative
was meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local
officials or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes
expansion difficult - even when the money for it is available. And
some experts argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to
encourage cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to
reduce consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could
squeeze out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those
running on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions
from dirtier fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity,
or find some other way to limit power generation from coal, these
experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit
to federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote
areas where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion
in loan guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy
projects. The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of
smart meters - which, administration officials say, in combination
with other investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2
percent to 4 percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain
the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide
a steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for
example, by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer
to let the local utility turn down air-conditioners in office
buildings or houses, when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple,
and me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me
stupid, and all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I
do not think much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter
to prove us all right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot
worse before it gets much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the
more perfect ones here will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve
If you're looking for discussion rather than trying to act like you're so
smart and Obama's a dumbass, read up on the plan for updating the
electrical grid and comment on whether it's a good plan or not. I'd like
to see some real quantitative analysis before beefing up the grid to
subsidize uneconomic methods of producing power. Some
updating/strengthening is definitely desirable from a reliability
standpoint. But crisscrossing the country with high-tension lines to move
wind power rather than conserving electricity doesn't make much economic
or environmental sense to me. We still have a lot of high-payback
conservation options which are not being employed.

I'm a simple man. I'm too happy and busy to debate with the overly
educated. I am not trying to act like I am smart. I am not. I am severely
underqualified in that area, but expert in others, and I do know what I have
garnered in sixty years on this rock. But at least I know the obvious, as
you do, and can recognize that making a gazillion dollar grid to channel
wind and solar energy is not feasible at this time, and will only create
money holes that lead to elitist politicians and businessmen, and not the
average Joe the ironworker or Fred the Electrician. If we were only to act
on what we already know, the planet would be a better place environmentally
in about a week. But no, we have to spend gawdzillions on studies of new
things, of course the gawdzillions following the gazillions already spent
and landing in the pockets of the few rather than providing the promised
jobs to the many. Example: how much has been spent on this carbon dioxide
farce with no benefit whatsoever except to fatten those on the Gulfstream
lecture tour.

I fear anarchy, chaos and violence when the general populace wakes up
sleeping in the cold street and realize they've been had.

Film at eleven.

Steve

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:51:18 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

-- Bruce --

Developed by Joseph Swan thirty years before Edison's work. He wasn't an
inventor, he was a thief.


Mark Rand
RTFM

Careful, Mark. Don't you know Barack Obama invented the light bulb?

Steve

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:43:41 -0500, "Buerste" wrote:




We already make brushes to remove flesh from cadavers to harvest bone
grafts.

Hmm. Mechanically recovered meat. Do they use your brushes at
packing plants to glean the hamburger from the bones?

RWL

snip


But the sign on the front of the machine: "STOP GLOBAL WARMING"
attracts
stupid, gullible liberals. (pardon the redundancy) Another sign to
use
would be: "FREE MONEY FROM YOUR GOVERNMENT". Do you see why it
won't
work on conservatives?

Sure. Most of them can't read.

--
Ed Huntress

Maybe you should explain to him again the difference between education
and
vocational training. Because it seems like there are really very few
educated republicans, and which he's a good example of.

'Never were many broadly educated Republicans or Democrats. Before WWII a
liberal college education was for the elite. Then came the GI Bill and
everyone had the chance. But not many wanted it. They wanted a better job
and more money. So they got technical or business degrees. As time went on
those subjects became more complex and demanding, and then there was no
time
left for a broad education anymore.

To get a broad, classical education, a kid really has to go against the
grain. And that's been true for 50 years. Even if they go to a top-rated
liberal arts college, like Amherst, Carleton, or Williams, once they
declare
a major they're in the same squirrel cage as the kids in the
mega-universities.

It produces some funny results, IMO, like an Ivy League-educated US
president who sees everything in terms of good an evil, with nothing in
between, and who doesn't know the difference between Sweden and
Switzerland.
I'll never forget Bush for that one.

Training to do
business isn't an education it's vocational training. Maybe that is why
conservatives are so obdurate and stick to their simplistic values and
ideas
no matter what facts come their way that contradict them. From what I
read
around here you are entirely correct about their being a lot of fat
between
the ears of conservatives. But then it's always been that way.

Hey, don't pin that on me. I was pulling Tom's chain, because he was in
trolling mode and he asked for it. d8-)

Don't get so down on conservatives. Predictable, reliably reverting to
stereotypes, they simplify the businesses of clothing design and hair
styling, boosting economies of scale. They tend to have similar
epidemiologies and they die from similar diseases, providing a good supply
of uniform cadavers for medical students to dissect -- it couldn't be
better
if their livers and kidneys were color-coded. And *somebody* has to buy
all
those damned pickup trucks, right?

--
Ed Huntress


Hey, thanks Ed. Without that I would never have realized the good that comes
from conservatives. Here I was thinking they were less than useless. Gee, it
is true. You do learn something new every day.

Hawke

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the
end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same
as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually worked
for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised bonus.
But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution system
were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before he more or
less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say that Obama
is
stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not an informed
statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he says
on
a lot of things.

Steve



All I can ask is what would you be if Obama is stupid? When you consider
that you are so far behind him in both IQ and in educational achievement, if
he's stupid that makes you, what, a victim of Downs Syndrome?

Hawke

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:13:37 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he
neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much
the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola
Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it
to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed
while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him -
and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed
in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse
and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can
see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop
the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few
"sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison,
was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even
before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to
say
that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is
not
an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was
during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than
money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a
form
that served well in the last century, when electricity was produced
mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative was
meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local
officials
or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes expansion
difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some experts
argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to encourage
cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to reduce
consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could
squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those
running
on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from
dirtier
fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or find
some
other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit
to
federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote areas
where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in
loan
guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy
projects.
The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of smart
meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with
other
investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to 4
percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide
a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and
windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for
example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let
the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or
houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple,
and
me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me stupid,
and
all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I do not think
much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter to prove us
all
right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot worse before it
gets
much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the more perfect ones here
will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve

It IS going to get worse before it gets better - and that is not Mr
Obama's fault.
I'd venture to guess it would be a lot worse a lot longer with his
competitor in charge.


Yes, and look at how fair Steve is. Obama's been in office for 30 days and
he's already been ripping into him for what, three weeks? If you went back
you would likely find that he gave Bush years before he said a discouraging
word about him and even defended him when he was doing the indefensible. Is
he biased or what?

Hawke

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:09:53 -0500, Wes wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Wow. Do they work on live conservatives? They tend to have a lot of
intra-abdominal fat. The brushes would be hard to keep clean.

So where in the spectrum do you best fit?

Ed belongs in the zoo...in the RINO section. Way over on the left side
of the RINO section....

I'm torn between conservatism and libertarianism.

Wes

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:28:50 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:

I am just damn glad we now have a President that can
speak without making me cringe.
Steve P

Well, uh, that uh, makes, uh, one of uh, us, uh.

Steve


Indeed...I agree with Steve...so that still makes one of us.....


"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:14:17 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:13:37 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say
that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not
an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a form
that served well in the last century, when electricity was produced
mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative was
meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local officials
or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes expansion
difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some experts
argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to encourage
cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to reduce
consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running
on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from dirtier
fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or find some
other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit to
federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote areas
where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in loan
guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy projects.
The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of smart
meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with other
investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to 4
percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple, and
me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me stupid, and
all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I do not think
much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter to prove us all
right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets
much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the more perfect ones here
will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve

It IS going to get worse before it gets better - and that is not Mr
Obama's fault.

Odd..thats what appologists for FDR claim. People who actually know say
differently.

I'd venture to guess it would be a lot worse a lot longer with his
competitor in charge.

In what way?

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:15:09 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


I fear anarchy, chaos and violence when the general populace wakes up
sleeping in the cold street and realize they've been had.

Film at eleven.

Steve

"What country before ever existed a century & a half without a
rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers
are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit
of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to
facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century
or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the
blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. "
Thomas Jefferson 1787




"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:09:02 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he says
on
a lot of things.

Steve

He's obviously smarter than you.

What is that supposed to mean?

It means the socialist canuk just insulted you.


"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:09:53 -0500, Wes wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Wow. Do they work on live conservatives? They tend to have a lot of
intra-abdominal fat. The brushes would be hard to keep clean.

So where in the spectrum do you best fit?

Ed belongs in the zoo...in the RINO section. Way over on the left side
of the RINO section....

They're building a special cage for Buddhist Repo-Libretardians, Gunner.
They don't know what to feed it, but I've suggested they just have the
dumpster haulers stop by, because it likes to dumpster-dive for snacks.

--
Ed Huntress

wrote in message
news
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:27:25 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:09:53 -0500, Wes wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Wow. Do they work on live conservatives? They tend to have a lot of
intra-abdominal fat. The brushes would be hard to keep clean.

So where in the spectrum do you best fit?

Ed belongs in the zoo...in the RINO section. Way over on the left side
of the RINO section....

They're building a special cage for Buddhist Repo-Libretardians, Gunner.
They don't know what to feed it, but I've suggested they just have the
dumpster haulers stop by, because it likes to dumpster-dive for snacks.


Typical Yank - can't spell RHINO

Gunner is referring to Republicans Inimical to Nutbags and Oddballs. We're
the old wing of the party, before the neocons and libretardians moved in and
wrecked the neighborhood.

--
Ed Huntress

wrote:

Typical Yank - can't spell RHINO

RINO - Republican In Name Only.

No H.

Wes

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:36:56 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:33:49 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:14:17 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:13:37 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Up North" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
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"SteveB" wrote in message
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"ATP*" wrote in message
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"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
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On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it to
her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was a
contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to say
that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla is not
an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a form
that served well in the last century, when electricity was produced
mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative was
meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local officials
or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes expansion
difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some experts
argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to encourage
cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to reduce
consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running
on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from dirtier
fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or find some
other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit to
federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote areas
where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in loan
guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy projects.
The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of smart
meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with other
investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to 4
percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple, and
me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me stupid, and
all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I do not think
much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter to prove us all
right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets
much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the more perfect ones here
will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve

It IS going to get worse before it gets better - and that is not Mr
Obama's fault.

Odd..thats what appologists for FDR claim. People who actually know say
differently.

I'd venture to guess it would be a lot worse a lot longer with his
competitor in charge.

In what way?

Gunner

Well, put it this way - with Obama in charge YOU stand a chance of
living long enough to see it turned around. With Bush and his clones,
you'd be long gone.

How so? My ex wife got medical care all the while Bush was in office.
In fact, Bush increased the medical benefits for American citizens,
including the Perscription Drug Bill

Bush couldn't even make a WAR profitable for general industry - only
for his "well connected" cronies.

Which cronies are you referring to? Be careful...your last statement
above turned out to be false...think hard before replying and I have to
hand you your ass again.


"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:38:53 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:38:32 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:09:02 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he says
on
a lot of things.

Steve

He's obviously smarter than you.

What is that supposed to mean?

It means the socialist canuk just insulted you.


If by default Canuks are socialist, I guess you are right - but on the
scale of one to ten, I'm somewhere back around a TWO.

An admission we all expected. You do know there are several 12 step
programs that will help you with your issue, right?


"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:39:44 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:27:25 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:09:53 -0500, Wes wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Wow. Do they work on live conservatives? They tend to have a lot of
intra-abdominal fat. The brushes would be hard to keep clean.

So where in the spectrum do you best fit?

Ed belongs in the zoo...in the RINO section. Way over on the left side
of the RINO section....

They're building a special cage for Buddhist Repo-Libretardians, Gunner.
They don't know what to feed it, but I've suggested they just have the
dumpster haulers stop by, because it likes to dumpster-dive for snacks.


Typical Yank - can't spell RHINO


Typical Socialist...puts a H in Republican In Name Only

Gunner

"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:38:32 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:09:02 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says
on
a lot of things.

Steve

He's obviously smarter than you.

What is that supposed to mean?

It means the socialist canuk just insulted you.


I feel better. I was feeling somewhat insulted, but now that I know it was
from a Canadian, I feel nothing at all.

Steve

GeoLane at PTD dot NET wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:43:41 -0500, "Buerste" wrote:




We already make brushes to remove flesh from cadavers to harvest bone
grafts.

Hmm. Mechanically recovered meat. Do they use your brushes at
packing plants to glean the hamburger from the bones?

RWL


Nope, too slow and expensive. They use high pressure water jets then press
the slurry.